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Klomp wrote:

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He's not wrong.

This is especially true if you have a rotation filled with American-born bigs. I do think international bigs still have this skill set, but it's not to the degree it once was.

He is not wrong. Except when he says no one he means no wolves, and when he says it died he means Ryan Saunders didn’t push them to do it so they learned really bad habits that he has to try and correct. My hope is that Beverly lights a fire under their butts and Okogie and Vando help with this.

Stat hunting, probably going back to the AAU level for a lot of the domestic players, has killed boxing out. It is a team-first, selfless act that doesn't show up in the box score. Stats get you scholarships and ultimately paid in the Association. Watching the Wolves stand inside the charging restricted area without ever looking at who may be headed their direction as shots ricocheted over their heads was maddening - again. It should stand out - in a glaringly bad way - during film sessions. Whether or not it gets corrected is another thing.

Trade for Simmons and play Vando minutes when Simmons is out. Rebounding solved.

gandlogo wrote:Stat hunting, probably going back to the AAU level for a lot of the domestic players, has killed boxing out. It is a team-first, selfless act that doesn't show up in the box score. Stats get you scholarships and ultimately paid in the Association. Watching the Wolves stand inside the charging restricted area without ever looking at who may be headed their direction as shots ricocheted over their heads was maddening - again. It should stand out - in a glaringly bad way - during film sessions. Whether or not it gets corrected is another thing.

But that's not just a Wolves problem, is what people need to remember. Yes it's a problem, but more a result of AAU culture than anything the staff is or isn't coaching in camp.

I think we have to be among the worst in the league, if not the worst, at boxing out.

EDIT: Then I google it, and we are dead last in the league at boxing out last year: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/box-outs/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=BOX_OUTS&dir=1

Klomp wrote:

gandlogo wrote:Stat hunting, probably going back to the AAU level for a lot of the domestic players, has killed boxing out. It is a team-first, selfless act that doesn't show up in the box score. Stats get you scholarships and ultimately paid in the Association. Watching the Wolves stand inside the charging restricted area without ever looking at who may be headed their direction as shots ricocheted over their heads was maddening - again. It should stand out - in a glaringly bad way - during film sessions. Whether or not it gets corrected is another thing.

But that's not just a Wolves problem, is what people need to remember. Yes it's a problem, but more a result of AAU culture than anything the staff is or isn't coaching in camp.

I agree that it is not just the Wolves. Even Finch hinted at it when he said boxing out died long ago. However, when I watch the Wolves they seem to stand deeper under the basket for some reason (you don't rebound makes, fellas). And because KAT isn't the quickest leaper, shots seem to bound over his head. Players that are shorter and/or earthbound need to set up farther from the rim. For the Wolves specifically, I think it is willingness to sacrifice and an awareness that they are often lacking. McDaniels getting blown by on a FT miss yesterday would have had him instantly on my bench. I'm optimistic that it can be improved, similar to how the team's defensive effort (with one entire preseason game as the proof) has seemingly improved.

thinktank wrote:I think we have to be among the worst in the league, if not the worst, at boxing out.

EDIT: Then I google it, and we are dead last in the league at boxing out last year: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/box-outs/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=BOX_OUTS&dir=1

Thanks for posting that. I had no idea those stats were even tracked, but clearly a case where perception and reality align.

On the bright side, at least we;

A) Know what the problem is, making it easier to fix
B) Don't have a dozen other glaring issues that also have to be fixed concurrently

thinktank wrote:I think we have to be among the worst in the league, if not the worst, at boxing out.

EDIT: Then I google it, and we are dead last in the league at boxing out last year: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/box-outs/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=BOX_OUTS&dir=1

If I am reading that right the number has gone WAY down since 2018, that's crazy, like the NBA just decided not to do it anymore.

Calinks wrote:

thinktank wrote:I think we have to be among the worst in the league, if not the worst, at boxing out.

EDIT: Then I google it, and we are dead last in the league at boxing out last year: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/box-outs/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=BOX_OUTS&dir=1

If I am reading that right the number has gone WAY down since 2018, that's crazy, like the NBA just decided not to do it anymore.

I'm wondering if alot of it has to do with the amount of 3pt shots taken. In the past the guards didn't really need to box out because the rebounds stayed near the hoop where the big guys hang out. With 3pt shots the ball carooms off the rim much farther out over the big men.

If one preseason game is a sample, Vando and McD aren’t the answers.


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Slim Tubby wrote:If one preseason game is a sample, Vando and McD aren’t the answers.


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Vanderbilt had 7 boards in only 17 minutes.

That’s roughly 15 PER36. That’s a strong check in the plus column for him starting.

McDaniels is likely never to be even an average rebounder. Leave him at SF.

BlacJacMac wrote:

Slim Tubby wrote:If one preseason game is a sample, Vando and McD aren’t the answers.


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Vanderbilt had 7 boards in only 17 minutes.

That’s roughly 15 PER36. That’s a strong check in the plus column for him starting.

McDaniels is likely never to be even an average rebounder. Leave him at SF.

Not saying Vando is a good nor a bad rebounder, but give me the team rebounding stats when he's on the floor vs off the floor, not his individual rebounding numbers. He might be good at rebounding because he goes for the rebs when he should be boxing out instead, lots of guys in the league who collect an impressive number of rebs while the team rebounding with them on the floor is awful, and vice versa (Brook Lopez, Adams).

A lot of our guys just don't have the instinct to box out because they were just hunting the individual rebs in high school to seen like better prospects, dude I am like a 5' 11'' 155lbs PG in my amateur league and I always box out my opposing PG at the top of the key or wherever, doesn't matter how far from the basket, because I want to win. How these guys don't have the instinct that boxing out helps winning and that therefor they should always box out is beyond me, coaches in the nba should be destroying guys for not boxing out, just make them watch the tape of them failing until their eyes pop out.

Calinks wrote:

thinktank wrote:I think we have to be among the worst in the league, if not the worst, at boxing out.

EDIT: Then I google it, and we are dead last in the league at boxing out last year: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/box-outs/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=BOX_OUTS&dir=1

If I am reading that right the number has gone WAY down since 2018, that's crazy, like the NBA just decided not to do it anymore.

I think 3 pt shots and going small has had a huge effect.

BlacJacMac wrote:

Slim Tubby wrote:If one preseason game is a sample, Vando and McD aren’t the answers.


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Vanderbilt had 7 boards in only 17 minutes.

That’s roughly 15 PER36. That’s a strong check in the plus column for him starting.

McDaniels is likely never to be even an average rebounder. Leave him at SF.

Totally agree on Vando. I agree even more on McD.

FinnTheHuman wrote:A lot of our guys just don't have the instinct to box out because they were just hunting the individual rebs in high school to seen like better prospects, dude I am like a 5' 11'' 155lbs PG in my amateur league and I always box out my opposing PG at the top of the key or wherever, doesn't matter how far from the basket, because I want to win. How these guys don't have the instinct that boxing out helps winning and that therefor they should always box out is beyond me, coaches in the nba should be destroying guys for not boxing out, just make them watch the tape of them failing until their eyes pop out.

I think you're close, but not all the way there.

These guys have always been the biggest, most athletic players on their team. They didn't need to box out their man in order to get the rebound because they could just jump higher than them. Kevin Love was an unathletic white boy who couldn't outjump people. That's why he developed skills boxing out and tracking the ball.

fattymcgee wrote:

Calinks wrote:

thinktank wrote:I think we have to be among the worst in the league, if not the worst, at boxing out.

EDIT: Then I google it, and we are dead last in the league at boxing out last year: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/box-outs/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=BOX_OUTS&dir=1

If I am reading that right the number has gone WAY down since 2018, that's crazy, like the NBA just decided not to do it anymore.

I'm wondering if alot of it has to do with the amount of 3pt shots taken. In the past the guards didn't really need to box out because the rebounds stayed near the hoop where the big guys hang out. With 3pt shots the ball carooms off the rim much farther out over the big men.

There is probably something to this