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Beverly or Rubio

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Beverly or Rubio 

Post#1 » by winforlose » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:59 pm

I though about doing this as a poll, but I wanted to address the obvious answer first. If you had the power to go back and change history and had to choose between Rubio or Beverly knowing only what you know now, who would you choose. As for the people who say why not both, between the minute situation, the money situation, and the human situation (Dlo and KAT are BFFs and Dlo makes KAT want to stay,) let’s concede for the purpose of this hypothetical that you have to pick one.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#2 » by AbeVigodaLive » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:23 pm

Right now, I'm totally fine with Beverley. Rubio had many chances to turn things around in MN... but he never did.

But considering Rubio was traded for T. Prince directly. Are we asking the right question?
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#3 » by winforlose » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:28 pm

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Right now, I'm totally fine with Beverley. Rubio had many chances to turn things around in MN... but he never did.

But considering Rubio was traded for T. Prince directly. Are we asking the right question?


The money involved, the play time, the fact that Dlo and Beasley are both going to need playtime, I just don’t see how we manage it any other way. Unless you are saying you would trade Beasley to keep Rubio and I don’t see that being the best move. Also would Beverly really want to come to a team with two well paid PGs? All in all I really do think it was one or the other.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#4 » by D1SGRUNTL3D » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:26 pm

Bev. I like Ricky, Bevs a troll. Love his game antics. Hate when he’s on a different team. Just totally the guy to go stand in somebody else’s huddle.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#5 » by NebWolvesFan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:33 pm

I feel like Beverley is more likely to hold teammates accountable more than Rubio. Rubio is more of a team guy who will probably be a head coach when he's done. Bev is a god who will get in someone's face if they don't do what they are supposed to do. That's what this team needs. Bev is also physical and tough. Rubio is also a good defender, but more of a finesse defender.

I think Bev is better for this group.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#6 » by AbeVigodaLive » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:23 pm

winforlose wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Right now, I'm totally fine with Beverley. Rubio had many chances to turn things around in MN... but he never did.

But considering Rubio was traded for T. Prince directly. Are we asking the right question?


The money involved, the play time, the fact that Dlo and Beasley are both going to need playtime, I just don’t see how we manage it any other way. Unless you are saying you would trade Beasley to keep Rubio and I don’t see that being the best move. Also would Beverly really want to come to a team with two well paid PGs? All in all I really do think it was one or the other.



I'm looking at it a bit differently.

Totally cool if the Wolves chose Beverley over Rubio for the 2nd guy next to Russell. My beef is that Rubio (who largely sucked last year but still had some value) was traded for a guy who's shown very little nearly 1/4 through the season.

For once, this was an opportunity for Wolves fans to have our cake and eat it, too.

- Win the Culver/Hernangomez for Beverley trade.
- Win the Rubio for Prince trade.

Both were very possible. But the Wolves only went 1 - 2.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#7 » by winforlose » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:35 pm

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
winforlose wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Right now, I'm totally fine with Beverley. Rubio had many chances to turn things around in MN... but he never did.

But considering Rubio was traded for T. Prince directly. Are we asking the right question?


The money involved, the play time, the fact that Dlo and Beasley are both going to need playtime, I just don’t see how we manage it any other way. Unless you are saying you would trade Beasley to keep Rubio and I don’t see that being the best move. Also would Beverly really want to come to a team with two well paid PGs? All in all I really do think it was one or the other.



I'm looking at it a bit differently.

Totally cool if the Wolves chose Beverley over Rubio for the 2nd guy next to Russell. My beef is that Rubio (who largely sucked last year but still had some value) was traded for a guy who's shown very little nearly 1/4 through the season.

For once, this was an opportunity for Wolves fans to have our cake and eat it, too.

- Win the Culver/Hernangomez for Beverley trade.
- Win the Rubio for Prince trade.

Both were very possible. But the Wolves only went 1 - 2.


I am going to respond to your comment but respectfully this is not the thread for this conversation. You can private message me, we can move to the trade thread, or the prince thread, it just isn’t fully on topic here.

That said, the idea of the Prince trade wasn’t bad, it just didn’t turn out the way we hoped. In theory we were getting another 3/4 hybrid who was known for his defense and 3 point shooting. You also save over 3 mil and get a trade exemption worth about the same (I cannot remember the exact number off hand.) You also get an extra 2nd from a team expected to be bad this year. That might not sound like much, but a top 5 2nd isn’t that far off from an end of round 1 first. All in the trade itself wasn’t so bad on paper. Moreover, if Rubio had also struggled you wouldn’t say we lost the trade. You might say we lost a chance to get more for Rubio (opportunity cost,) but you wouldn’t be any worse off than where you started. Also, if Rubio gets hurt or regresses, or if Prince turns the corner and plays well enough to be traded at decent value or contribute in a meaningful way, you will likely have to recalculate on your evaluation of the trade. Finally, 1/5 of the season, not 1/4. 17/82 is 20.73% not 25%.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#8 » by AbeVigodaLive » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:47 pm

winforlose wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
winforlose wrote:
The money involved, the play time, the fact that Dlo and Beasley are both going to need playtime, I just don’t see how we manage it any other way. Unless you are saying you would trade Beasley to keep Rubio and I don’t see that being the best move. Also would Beverly really want to come to a team with two well paid PGs? All in all I really do think it was one or the other.



I'm looking at it a bit differently.

Totally cool if the Wolves chose Beverley over Rubio for the 2nd guy next to Russell. My beef is that Rubio (who largely sucked last year but still had some value) was traded for a guy who's shown very little nearly 1/4 through the season.

For once, this was an opportunity for Wolves fans to have our cake and eat it, too.

- Win the Culver/Hernangomez for Beverley trade.
- Win the Rubio for Prince trade.

Both were very possible. But the Wolves only went 1 - 2.


I am going to respond to your comment but respectfully this is not the thread for this conversation. You can private message me, we can move to the trade thread, or the prince thread, it just isn’t fully on topic here.

That said, the idea of the Prince trade wasn’t bad, it just didn’t turn out the way we hoped. In theory we were getting another 3/4 hybrid who was known for his defense and 3 point shooting. You also save over 3 mil and get a trade exemption worth about the same (I cannot remember the exact number off hand.) You also get an extra 2nd from a team expected to be bad this year. That might not sound like much, but a top 5 2nd isn’t that far off from an end of round 1 first. All in the trade itself wasn’t so bad on paper. Moreover, if Rubio had also struggled you wouldn’t say we lost the trade. You might say we lost a chance to get more for Rubio (opportunity cost,) but you wouldn’t be any worse off than where you started. Also, if Rubio gets hurt or regresses, or if Prince turns the corner and plays well enough to be traded at decent value or contribute in a meaningful way, you will likely have to recalculate on your evaluation of the trade. Finally, 1/5 of the season, not 1/4. 17/82 is 20.73% not 25%.



Now I remember you! Ha.

"nearly 1/4 through the season."

But I do appreciate your rigorous policing of your own thread here. Maybe just give us a poll next time so we can avoid the sticky extraneous discussion.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#9 » by Battletrigger » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:08 pm

Some people here have some kind of mental issue with Rubio man. Like when a bad girlfriend leaves you and you keep thinking about her all your life.

Rubio always plays better with other teams that with Wolves uniform, let him go.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#10 » by AbeVigodaLive » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:36 pm

Battletrigger wrote:Some people here have some kind of mental issue with Rubio man. Like when a bad girlfriend leaves you and you keep thinking about her all your life.

Rubio always plays better with other teams that with Wolves uniform, let him go.



The stats are actually quite stark with Rubio in/out of Minnesota.

He shoots more away from MN. And better. And he wins more.

Don't know the reasoning behind it (better teammates?)... but there's a definite trend. Consider Rubio shot 36% on threes in Phoenix while scoring 15+ points per 36. Shows up in MN and goes back down to 31% and 12 points per 36.

Goes to Cleveland and 21.95122% through the season he's averaging 18 points per 36 while shooting 37% on threes.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#11 » by twolves31 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:51 pm

Rubio was one of my favorite Wolves players during his first stint here. Never ended up playing as well as my expectations for him in the early days. I'm cool with Beverly over Rubio for that tough defensive mentality he brings. I wouldn't be opposed to bringing back Rubio for a 3rd stint one day though on a cheaper contract. Now we didn't trade Rubio for Beverly so that actual trade so far has been a bust as Prince has regressed terribly. I wish we would have traded Rubio for Nance or Rubio and a pick for Allen.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#12 » by FinnTheHuman » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:33 pm

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Battletrigger wrote:Some people here have some kind of mental issue with Rubio man. Like when a bad girlfriend leaves you and you keep thinking about her all your life.

Rubio always plays better with other teams that with Wolves uniform, let him go.



The stats are actually quite stark with Rubio in/out of Minnesota.

He shoots more away from MN. And better. And he wins more.

Don't know the reasoning behind it (better teammates?)... but there's a definite trend. Consider Rubio shot 36% on threes in Phoenix while scoring 15+ points per 36. Shows up in MN and goes back down to 31% and 12 points per 36.

Goes to Cleveland and 21.95122% through the season he's averaging 18 points per 36 while shooting 37% on threes.


Rubio does better with pick n roll bigs who just know how to roll really well and who are committed to screening hard and a lot and then attacking the basket. Running a lot of PnR with Pekovic, Gobert, Ayton, and now Jarrett Allen, is what gets Rubio in rhythm and boosts his confidence and then the other parts of his game also start looking better.

KAT is not that guy, Edwards doesn't move that much and that willingly without the ball, DLo neither etc, we simply didn't have those guys who know how to take advantage of a PG who's constantly probing after a PnR screen.

So yeah, imo it's mostly about the suitable pick n roll partners and a coach calling Rubio PnR's a lot. He didn't look good in Utah either when he was playing off-ball, but once the coach ran PnR with him and Gobert, he started to shine.

So yeah, I'm taking Beverley over him for this year because Rubio wouldn't really be featured offensively for us, and then he'd disappear.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#13 » by shrink » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:19 am

I think they are comparably talented, with Rubio a much better passer, and Beverley a better defender. I also think that without Rubio last year, Ant would not be nearly as far along in his development.

That said, Beverley has impacted, not just Ant, but the whole team, getting them all to try harder on the defensive end. Dane Moore pointed out that the three-man combination of KAT-DLO-Ant are like +13, because of their defense. However, half those three-man minutes are with Beverley as the fourth, and then they are +23. When he’s not on the floor, they are like 0.

MIN is winning now with defense - they did not win with Ricky’s passing, so I will begrudgingly vote Beverley.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#14 » by winforlose » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:29 am

shrink wrote:I think they are comparably talented, with Rubio a much better passer, and Beverley a better defender. I also think that without Rubio last year, Ant would not be nearly as far along in his development.

That said, Beverley has impacted, not just Ant, but the whole team, getting them all to try harder on the defensive end. Dane Moore pointed out that the three-man combination of KAT-DLO-Ant are like +13, because of their defense. However, half those three-man minutes are with Beverley as the fourth, and then they are +23. When he’s not on the floor, they are like 0.

MIN is winning now with defense - they did not win with Ricky’s passing, so I will begrudgingly vote Beverley.


Actually without Bev they are like -3. I started this thread because to me the answer is clearly Beverly, but I keep running into posts about Rubio. Ricky for all his improvement from deep is shooting 38.1% from the field. He is on pace to take double the shots he took with us and his other stats are about even. I congratulate him on improving his 3 point shooting to about average, but his two point shooting is no better (in fact I believe it is worse.) Beverly is a better leader, more consistent player, and brings defense which is sorely needed (Rubio was a terrible point of attack defender.) Having both makes no sense unless we move Dlo. The only argument is that we should have gotten more for Ricky and given his bad season last year and high salary I am not sure how much more we could get.

I keep seeing opinions saying we should have kept Ricky and in light of Beverly I just cannot see it.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#15 » by Mattya » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:49 am

The defensive results are staggering, largely because of Pat Bev’s leadership. There is obviously more to it, but he deserves a ton of praise. I hope the keep Beverly long term. As good as Rubio looks whenever he isn’t with the Wolves we have never had defensive results like this.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#16 » by Domejandro » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:29 am

Ricky Rubio is a better player and it is likely that we would have had a similar defensive turn around with him (the biggest changes are primarily because Coach Finch had a full off-season to implement his game plan). That said, I think Patrick Beverly has been perfect to give the team a necessary edge to their play, and he is a solid off-ball player, which is good on this squad.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#17 » by Battletrigger » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:12 am

Domejandro wrote:Ricky Rubio is a better player and it is likely that we would have had a similar defensive turn around with him (the biggest changes are primarily because Coach Finch had a full off-season to implement his game plan). That said, I think Patrick Beverly has been perfect to give the team a necessary edge to their play, and he is a solid off-ball player, which is good on this squad.


That's only an hypothesis but the fact is that Rubio has played seven seasons in MN and never haven't shown the leadership, the defensive sharp, the consistency or the shot threat that Pat has shown.

I know that Rubio is a fav of many fans but he is not a leader, he cannot carry you to your best, when things come down he complains and gets depressed.

For me, I don't see where Rubio is a better player taking into account that we have had the Rubio prime years and Pat is 33.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#18 » by Domejandro » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:09 pm

Battletrigger wrote:
Domejandro wrote:Ricky Rubio is a better player and it is likely that we would have had a similar defensive turn around with him (the biggest changes are primarily because Coach Finch had a full off-season to implement his game plan). That said, I think Patrick Beverly has been perfect to give the team a necessary edge to their play, and he is a solid off-ball player, which is good on this squad.


That's only an hypothesis but the fact is that Rubio has played seven seasons in MN and never haven't shown the leadership, the defensive sharp, the consistency or the shot threat that Pat has shown.

I know that Rubio is a fav of many fans but he is not a leader, he cannot carry you to your best, when things come down he complains and gets depressed.

For me, I don't see where Rubio is a better player taking into account that we have had the Rubio prime years and Pat is 33.

Every young team that Ricky Rubio has gone to since leaving Minnesota has massively improved with him, and he is continually credited as a locker room leader. From Utah, to Phoenix, to Cleveland, Ricky has been a well-respected team leader; one injury filled season from the worst team in NBA history doesn't change that. Ricky Rubio has also been a better defensive player than Patrick Beverly, throughout his career.

I am very content with Patrick Beverly because I think the fit is better (I would argue personality wise Minnesota needed someone like Patrick Beverly more), but there isn't any need to underrate Ricky Rubio because of it.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#19 » by minimus » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:49 pm

Both are better fit with their current teams, than with former. Also both have contract year.
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Re: Beverly or Rubio 

Post#20 » by winforlose » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:46 pm

Domejandro wrote:
Battletrigger wrote:
Domejandro wrote:Ricky Rubio is a better player and it is likely that we would have had a similar defensive turn around with him (the biggest changes are primarily because Coach Finch had a full off-season to implement his game plan). That said, I think Patrick Beverly has been perfect to give the team a necessary edge to their play, and he is a solid off-ball player, which is good on this squad.


That's only an hypothesis but the fact is that Rubio has played seven seasons in MN and never haven't shown the leadership, the defensive sharp, the consistency or the shot threat that Pat has shown.

I know that Rubio is a fav of many fans but he is not a leader, he cannot carry you to your best, when things come down he complains and gets depressed.

For me, I don't see where Rubio is a better player taking into account that we have had the Rubio prime years and Pat is 33.

Every young team that Ricky Rubio has gone to since leaving Minnesota has massively improved with him, and he is continually credited as a locker room leader. From Utah, to Phoenix, to Cleveland, Ricky has been a well-respected team leader; one injury filled season from the worst team in NBA history doesn't change that. Ricky Rubio has also been a better defensive player than Patrick Beverly, throughout his career.

I am very content with Patrick Beverly because I think the fit is better (I would argue personality wise Minnesota needed someone like Patrick Beverly more), but there isn't any need to underrate Ricky Rubio because of it.


I respect your opinion but on what basis do you claim Ricky is a better defender than Beverly?

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