Windhorst Source says Rosas Tenure Worse than David Kahn’s

[Calinks]

I just don't know how anyone can Rosas is bad when they see the position we are in right now. That's Rosas, what did he have to do to be considered good? Have us contending for a title now? We were basically tasked with having to rebuild after the the Thibs plan fell apart. We had damn near nothing when Rosas got here. Now we have a team and foundation to build on that is trending up. He basically restructured this entire team to put us in this position.

What would you prefer? A total blow-up so we would be OKC for a few years and hope to build a monster around 2025? Did you want him to continue what Thibs started and try to bring in vets and sell assets? I don't think many GM's would do better in 3 years. If we make the playoffs I'd say that's a huge success.

[winforlose]

I just don't know how anyone can Rosas is bad when they see the position we are in right now. That's Rosas, what did he have to do to be considered good? Have us contending for a title now? We were basically tasked with having to rebuild after the the Thibs plan fell apart. We had damn near nothing when Rosas got here. Now we have a team and foundation to build on that is trending up. He basically restructured this entire team to put us in this position.

What would you prefer? A total blow-up so we would be OKC for a few years and hope to build a monster around 2025? Did you want him to continue what Thibs started and try to bring in vets and sell assets? I don't think many GM's would do better in 3 years. If we make the playoffs I'd say that's a huge success.

Keep in mind this a total devils advocate position.

1. The Wiggins deal brought in Dlo a player with injury issues and massive shooting inconsistencies. It further put us in the luxury tax which limited our options for several seasons do to repeat tax concerns. It also cost a pick that would at the very least have been 7 overall but might have been better had we tanked secure in the knowledge that we had the 4-6th pick if we missed 1-3.

2. Beasley is a flop, Juancho was a flop. We traded away Roco and got little back. KBD for V8 was a toss in, the original Roco trade did not include him and thus was basically a fail.

3. There is a rumor that Rosas allowed Ryan to stay and it was not as is commonly believed Taylor’s doing. If true, the Ryan mess is on Rosas,

4. Culver cost us a decent player at 11 as well as Saric who himself had trade or roster value. Leo is looking like a flop as well. Some people prefer Lamelo over Ant and say Rosas got that wrong too.

5. Trading for Rubio and then trading Rubio away for Prince could both be considered bad moves that squandered assets and resources. Instead of Rubio maybe the 17th could have secured more valuable talent. Likewise maybe Rubio gets you more than Prince and a second.

6. Rosas did not trade into the 2022 draft and a lot of talent was missed out on even in the second round. Talent that could have truly helped.

7. Rosas did not make a move to secure a starting PF either last season or during the off season.

8. Rosas had personal issues which interferes with the health of the franchise and made KAT feel dissatisfied with the organization.

I could probably list more, but the point is Rosas wasn’t perfect.

Edit: I cannot believe I forgot. The original sin, the root of most of current ills, and the thing I personally still cannot forgive him for. Small ball. Small ball doesn’t work, and is still causing us headaches.

[minimus]

I could probably list more, but the point is Rosas wasn’t perfect.

Nobody is perfect, the point is that Rosas did a great job to rebuild this team with limited options.

Edit: I cannot believe I forgot. The original sin, the root of most of current ills, and the thing I personally still cannot forgive him for. Small ball. Small ball doesn’t work, and is still causing us headaches.

Smallball like any other system works with right personell. The more specific, custom system's design is, the more specific players you need. Vando could not crack DEN rotation, but fit well next to our core.

[winforlose]

I could probably list more, but the point is Rosas wasn’t perfect.

Nobody is perfect, the point is that Rosas did a great job to rebuild this team with limited options.

Edit: I cannot believe I forgot. The original sin, the root of most of current ills, and the thing I personally still cannot forgive him for. Small ball. Small ball doesn’t work, and is still causing us headaches.

Smallball like any other system works with right personell. The more specific, custom system's design is, the more specific players you need. Vando could not crack DEN rotation, but fit well next to our core.

Again, I was playing devils advocate. I stated above my position and I personally like moves like the Dlo trade and I don’t believe Rosas chose Ryan. Overall, I like what Rosas built. But in fairness to the other side, there is a long list that didn’t work out. The true X factor is opportunity cost. What could we have gotten that we didn’t get for guys like Saric and Rubio or for the 17th pick.

V8 was rough as can be in Denver. His lack of offense and his sub par defense had him looking like a 2 way. That said, V8 is one of the best stories I have ever seen with regard to players learning to become excellent defenders. He wasn’t special when we got him but he made himself special since. As for small ball working with right guys, I disagree. Houston had mountains of help from the refs and still couldn’t win a title with Harden playing historic basketball. Worse still, our best player is a PF who has been playing C since he was drafted. Putting a SF into the PF is even less acceptable in our case. Rebounding and interior defense become that much harder. Add to it the fact that KAT wasn’t a good defender at the time and you get a recipe for disaster. I tried to trust the Prosas and for the most part it worked out. But small ball is where I draw the line.

[minimus]

I could probably list more, but the point is Rosas wasn’t perfect.

Nobody is perfect, the point is that Rosas did a great job to rebuild this team with limited options.

Edit: I cannot believe I forgot. The original sin, the root of most of current ills, and the thing I personally still cannot forgive him for. Small ball. Small ball doesn’t work, and is still causing us headaches.

Smallball like any other system works with right personell. The more specific, custom system's design is, the more specific players you need. Vando could not crack DEN rotation, but fit well next to our core.

Again, I was playing devils advocate. I stated above my position and I personally like moves like the Dlo trade and I don’t believe Rosas chose Ryan. Overall, I like what Rosas built. But in fairness to the other side, there is a long list that didn’t work out. The true X factor is opportunity cost. What could we have gotten that we didn’t get for guys like Saric and Rubio or for the 17th pick.

V8 was rough as can be in Denver. His lack of offense and his sub par defense had him looking like a 2 way. That said, V8 is one of the best stories I have ever seen with regard to players learning to become excellent defenders. He wasn’t special when we got him but he made himself special since. As for small ball working with right guys, I disagree. Houston had mountains of help from the refs and still couldn’t win a title with Harden playing historic basketball. Worse still, our best player is a PF who has been playing C since he was drafted. Putting a SF into the PF is even less acceptable in our case. Rebounding and interior defense become that much harder. Add to it the fact that KAT wasn’t a good defender at the time and you get a recipe for disaster. I tried to trust the Prosas and for the most part it worked out. But small ball is where I draw the line.

I watched couple of Garland games this year, and I understand why Rosas wanted him (before we traded for DLo). Both Garland and DLo share same prototypical skillset that Rosas wanted next to Towns: shooting-first ball handler, good passer. Then around this duo of shooting bigman and ball handler build starting five. So Rosas traded for DLo not only because they are friends, he wanted certain player to build our identity. "Five-out" or small ball we can call it how we like we want but we can see it is working, even if Vando, MCD, Ant, Reid, Nowell are young. I mean half of our rotation are young players.

[winforlose]

Nobody is perfect, the point is that Rosas did a great job to rebuild this team with limited options.



Smallball like any other system works with right personell. The more specific, custom system's design is, the more specific players you need. Vando could not crack DEN rotation, but fit well next to our core.

Again, I was playing devils advocate. I stated above my position and I personally like moves like the Dlo trade and I don’t believe Rosas chose Ryan. Overall, I like what Rosas built. But in fairness to the other side, there is a long list that didn’t work out. The true X factor is opportunity cost. What could we have gotten that we didn’t get for guys like Saric and Rubio or for the 17th pick.

V8 was rough as can be in Denver. His lack of offense and his sub par defense had him looking like a 2 way. That said, V8 is one of the best stories I have ever seen with regard to players learning to become excellent defenders. He wasn’t special when we got him but he made himself special since. As for small ball working with right guys, I disagree. Houston had mountains of help from the refs and still couldn’t win a title with Harden playing historic basketball. Worse still, our best player is a PF who has been playing C since he was drafted. Putting a SF into the PF is even less acceptable in our case. Rebounding and interior defense become that much harder. Add to it the fact that KAT wasn’t a good defender at the time and you get a recipe for disaster. I tried to trust the Prosas and for the most part it worked out. But small ball is where I draw the line.

I watched couple of Garland games this year, and I understand why Rosas wanted him (before we traded for DLo). Both Garland and DLo share same prototypical skillset that Rosas wanted next to Towns: shooting-first ball handler, good passer. Then around this duo of shooting bigman and ball handler build starting five. So Rosas traded for DLo not only because they are friends, he wanted certain player to build our identity. "Five-out" or small ball we can call it how we like we want but we can see it is working, even if Vando, MCD, Ant, Reid, Nowell are young. I mean half of our rotation are young players.

Why pull the trigger on the trade before the pick is on the clock? He had no way of knowing what Cleveland was going to do. It was stupid and resulted in one of the worst debacles of our recent history, and that is saying something. He gave up a lottery pick and a starter to move up and take someone he didn’t even want. Someone who clashed with the prior years pick and maybe stunted JO’s development. As for the small ball working, the consensus throughout the summer is we need another big to get away from small ball. We have been killed on the glass repeatedly this season and it’s the reason we are in 8th instead of 4th. We have very different opinions about what working looks like.

[TheProdigy]

There is absolutely no comparison. Kahn is probably the worst GM in terms of talent evaluation in the history of sports whereas Rosas did a pretty good job rebuilding after the Thibs debacle. The majority of Kahn's lottery picks were considered busts before their rookie contracts ended.

Not saying Rosas should still be the GM, but it's hard to argue the results. Even the DLo trade is starting to look pretty good. The only clear blemishes I can see on Rosas record are the Culver pick and swapping Rubio for Prince.

[Biff Cooper]

In retrospect, nothing Rosas did was close to as bad as signing Batum to a free agent deal when he didn't have cap space to do so...

[Calinks]

I just don't know how anyone can Rosas is bad when they see the position we are in right now. That's Rosas, what did he have to do to be considered good? Have us contending for a title now? We were basically tasked with having to rebuild after the the Thibs plan fell apart. We had damn near nothing when Rosas got here. Now we have a team and foundation to build on that is trending up. He basically restructured this entire team to put us in this position.

What would you prefer? A total blow-up so we would be OKC for a few years and hope to build a monster around 2025? Did you want him to continue what Thibs started and try to bring in vets and sell assets? I don't think many GM's would do better in 3 years. If we make the playoffs I'd say that's a huge success.

Keep in mind this a total devils advocate position.

1. The Wiggins deal brought in Dlo a player with injury issues and massive shooting inconsistencies. It further put us in the luxury tax which limited our options for several seasons do to repeat tax concerns. It also cost a pick that would at the very least have been 7 overall but might have been better had we tanked secure in the knowledge that we had the 4-6th pick if we missed 1-3.

2. Beasley is a flop, Juancho was a flop. We traded away Roco and got little back. KBD for V8 was a toss in, the original Roco trade did not include him and thus was basically a fail.

3. There is a rumor that Rosas allowed Ryan to stay and it was not as is commonly believed Taylor’s doing. If true, the Ryan mess is on Rosas,

4. Culver cost us a decent player at 11 as well as Saric who himself had trade or roster value. Leo is looking like a flop as well. Some people prefer Lamelo over Ant and say Rosas got that wrong too.

5. Trading for Rubio and then trading Rubio away for Prince could both be considered bad moves that squandered assets and resources. Instead of Rubio maybe the 17th could have secured more valuable talent. Likewise maybe Rubio gets you more than Prince and a second.

6. Rosas did not trade into the 2022 draft and a lot of talent was missed out on even in the second round. Talent that could have truly helped.

7. Rosas did not make a move to secure a starting PF either last season or during the off season.

8. Rosas had personal issues which interferes with the health of the franchise and made KAT feel dissatisfied with the organization.

I could probably list more, but the point is Rosas wasn’t perfect.

Edit: I cannot believe I forgot. The original sin, the root of most of current ills, and the thing I personally still cannot forgive him for. Small ball. Small ball doesn’t work, and is still causing us headaches.

Those are fair perspectives and I appreciate you taking the time to make the contrarian argument. I disagree with a fair bit of it though.

2. I don't agree that Beasley is a flop. He's having a bad season, he was marvelous last season and I absolutely think his shot will fall again in the future. Even if its not at the clip it was dropping in 2020, I do not suspect that the horrendous shooting we are seeing this season will be what he is for his career. Could be wrong but I think it's too early to say.

3. Rumor and I don't buy it. My speculation is that Rosas was heavily encouraged to keep Ryan on and he did so to appease Glen, and to get put the team into tank mode. I think Rosas really put Ryan in a box and Ryan did the best he could. Rosas wanted to tank and get a good pick and Rosas wanted to experiment with players and schemes.

There is also evidence to point to the fact that Rosas wanted Finch early on. I think Finch was always his guy but he felt he had to bring Finch in at the right time. Ryan was a good scapegoat for the first couple of seasons. That just my thoughts and can't be confirmed, I always had that feeling about Rosas from the start with Ryan though.

Everything else I think are solid knocks. Culver was a disaster, my guess is Rosas gambled a bit there and got burned. Rubio was a disaster, don't know how that came about, maybe Ryan really wanted him back, who knows. Rosas has missed on some players for sure but for the most part, I like him taking the shot. Struck out hard on Culver, Rubio, Prince (so far), Juancho, Layman, Beasley (2021 so far), Balmaro (so far).

Seemed to hit big on Reid, Nowell, Jmac (2020), Edwards, Beasley (2020), Vanderbilt, Beverly. I'd argue Russell is a big get now too.

I'm certainly not saying he's perfect, I could even say he was the wrong man for the job (merely because of his personal issues/ethics) but I wouldn't say he was bad. I think at worst he was ok. At best, he was fairly good. Nearly no one is hitting on every single move they make. When you factor it what he was given when he got the job, he did a lot of good.

[minimus]

Again, I was playing devils advocate. I stated above my position and I personally like moves like the Dlo trade and I don’t believe Rosas chose Ryan. Overall, I like what Rosas built. But in fairness to the other side, there is a long list that didn’t work out. The true X factor is opportunity cost. What could we have gotten that we didn’t get for guys like Saric and Rubio or for the 17th pick.

V8 was rough as can be in Denver. His lack of offense and his sub par defense had him looking like a 2 way. That said, V8 is one of the best stories I have ever seen with regard to players learning to become excellent defenders. He wasn’t special when we got him but he made himself special since. As for small ball working with right guys, I disagree. Houston had mountains of help from the refs and still couldn’t win a title with Harden playing historic basketball. Worse still, our best player is a PF who has been playing C since he was drafted. Putting a SF into the PF is even less acceptable in our case. Rebounding and interior defense become that much harder. Add to it the fact that KAT wasn’t a good defender at the time and you get a recipe for disaster. I tried to trust the Prosas and for the most part it worked out. But small ball is where I draw the line.

I watched couple of Garland games this year, and I understand why Rosas wanted him (before we traded for DLo). Both Garland and DLo share same prototypical skillset that Rosas wanted next to Towns: shooting-first ball handler, good passer. Then around this duo of shooting bigman and ball handler build starting five. So Rosas traded for DLo not only because they are friends, he wanted certain player to build our identity. "Five-out" or small ball we can call it how we like we want but we can see it is working, even if Vando, MCD, Ant, Reid, Nowell are young. I mean half of our rotation are young players.

Why pull the trigger on the trade before the pick is on the clock? He had no way of knowing what Cleveland was going to do. It was stupid and resulted in one of the worst debacles of our recent history, and that is saying something. He gave up a lottery pick and a starter to move up and take someone he didn’t even want. Someone who clashed with the prior years pick and maybe stunted JO’s development. As for the small ball working, the consensus throughout the summer is we need another big to get away from small ball. We have been killed on the glass repeatedly this season and it’s the reason we are in 8th instead of 4th. We have very different opinions about what working looks like.

He missed that Culver pick, but honestly it happens every year, so I don't really care. Culver has potential, so going for higher potential is a good strategy. But even if Rosas failed execution of that draft, the vision was right.

I also think that in current league size DOES matter, but it should size on wings, in backcourt etc, not only C/PF positions. I also think that with importance of perimeter shooting, the effort at boxing out and mobility is more important than size alone. Many good teams in current NBA might be viewed as undersized / small ball teams. They mitigate this issue with team effort, defensive scheme and versatility.

[winforlose]

I watched couple of Garland games this year, and I understand why Rosas wanted him (before we traded for DLo). Both Garland and DLo share same prototypical skillset that Rosas wanted next to Towns: shooting-first ball handler, good passer. Then around this duo of shooting bigman and ball handler build starting five. So Rosas traded for DLo not only because they are friends, he wanted certain player to build our identity. "Five-out" or small ball we can call it how we like we want but we can see it is working, even if Vando, MCD, Ant, Reid, Nowell are young. I mean half of our rotation are young players.

Why pull the trigger on the trade before the pick is on the clock? He had no way of knowing what Cleveland was going to do. It was stupid and resulted in one of the worst debacles of our recent history, and that is saying something. He gave up a lottery pick and a starter to move up and take someone he didn’t even want. Someone who clashed with the prior years pick and maybe stunted JO’s development. As for the small ball working, the consensus throughout the summer is we need another big to get away from small ball. We have been killed on the glass repeatedly this season and it’s the reason we are in 8th instead of 4th. We have very different opinions about what working looks like.

He missed that Culver pick, but honestly it happens every year, so I don't really care. Culver has potential, so going for higher potential is a good strategy. But even if Rosas failed execution of that draft, the vision was right.

I also think that in current league size DOES matter, but it should size on wings, in backcourt etc, not only C/PF positions. I also think that with importance of perimeter shooting, the effort at boxing out and mobility is more important than size alone. Many good teams in current NBA might be viewed as undersized / small ball teams. They mitigate this issue with team effort, defensive scheme and versatility.

I understand your point, but I have to ask, can JO play the PF? Can someone 6’4 211 guard someone 6’8-6’10 between 225 and 250? Could V8 rebound the way he is rebounding if he was the size of JMAC? There is a time for size and a time for speed and of course having both is optimal. But look at the Utah games when KAT was out with Covid. Neither Reid nor Knight could guard Gobert. Lob dunk after lob dunk not to mention trips to the FT line because they were not big enough to defend him. I honestly believe if we had a true C like Bam playing next to KAT we would have 10 more wins this seasons. The same is true of a guy like Vuc or even a more traditional PF size guy who plays C like Wood.

The issue is KAT was a PF when he was drafted and played C his entire career. Pairing that with a smaller PF means we have to fight that much harder for boards and to defend the paint. This is the origin of KAT’s foul trouble issues, the size differential. Add to that some bad habits and undisciplined play on offense, and when KAT is on the bench we are helpless against opposing bigs. For more proof look at the Washington and Cleveland games. Lack of size will prevent us from doing anything long term.

[minimus]

Why pull the trigger on the trade before the pick is on the clock? He had no way of knowing what Cleveland was going to do. It was stupid and resulted in one of the worst debacles of our recent history, and that is saying something. He gave up a lottery pick and a starter to move up and take someone he didn’t even want. Someone who clashed with the prior years pick and maybe stunted JO’s development. As for the small ball working, the consensus throughout the summer is we need another big to get away from small ball. We have been killed on the glass repeatedly this season and it’s the reason we are in 8th instead of 4th. We have very different opinions about what working looks like.

He missed that Culver pick, but honestly it happens every year, so I don't really care. Culver has potential, so going for higher potential is a good strategy. But even if Rosas failed execution of that draft, the vision was right.

I also think that in current league size DOES matter, but it should size on wings, in backcourt etc, not only C/PF positions. I also think that with importance of perimeter shooting, the effort at boxing out and mobility is more important than size alone. Many good teams in current NBA might be viewed as undersized / small ball teams. They mitigate this issue with team effort, defensive scheme and versatility.

I understand your point, but I have to ask, can JO play the PF? Can someone 6’4 211 guard someone 6’8-6’10 between 225 and 250? Could V8 rebound the way he is rebounding if he was the size of JMAC? There is a time for size and a time for speed and of course having both is optimal. But look at the Utah games when KAT was out with Covid. Neither Reid nor Knight could guard Gobert. Lob dunk after lob dunk not to mention trips to the FT line because they were not big enough to defend him. I honestly believe if we had a true C like Bam playing next to KAT we would have 10 more wins this seasons. The same is true of a guy like Vuc or even a more traditional PF size guy who plays C like Wood.

The issue is KAT was a PF when he was drafted and played C his entire career. Pairing that with a smaller PF means we have to fight that much harder for boards and to defend the paint. This is the origin of KAT’s foul trouble issues, the size differential. Add to that some bad habits and undisciplined play on offense, and when KAT is on the bench we are helpless against opposing bigs. For more proof look at the Washington and Cleveland games. Lack of size will prevent us from doing anything long term.

As I said before size does matter. JO can't guard Giannis or Gobert. Our starting five plays well with Vando even if he is a tad undersized with 6'9" 215lbs, 7'1 wingspan. It is basically a small ball lineup as well, because Vando has size of big wing and we are not that big at SF/SG with Edwards and DLo. But they mesh well together, and I remember games where Gobert could not guard Towns in 1 vs 1.

The problem with whole this topic is that you see lack of size as main problem and adding size at PF/C as an automatic cure for us to be top defense and offence. I think that we have many problems that cannot be solved by simply adding size. That's why I see lack of size as one of many problems of this roster:

* - inconsistent ball movement, lack of quality corner 3 attempts
* - inconsistent 3pt shooting
* - we create many fast break opportunities, but we are inefficient at converting them
* - without Beverley we don't have reliable PoA defender (Okogie can't shoot)
* - Towns TOs rate in spotup, decision making
* - lack of rim runner options (Vando is getting better here, but Reid and Towns are not natural rim runners)
* - lack of options for low man in x-out scheme, Vando and MCD are getting better as low men, I would add another big wing in rotation. On paper Prince could have played this role, but...

Where I would definitely add size is backup C/PF position, because we have there Reid who is more finesse player and MCD who 6'11" and 200 lbs. But my vision is that we should add a player, not necessary replace Reid and MCD. Let me explain. For instance, we saw Monroe working well for us, he is a big, traditional C. He impacted the game with his passing, rebounding and size. However, in aggressive perimeter defense (blitz/show) he looked like a dead fish. This defensive scheme is our calling card. It means that Monroe type of player can't be playing any significant minutes for us, BUT can provide 5-10 minutes against certain matchups. I would love to add Cousins, who has size, is familiar with Finch as our 2/3 center depending on matchups, and an insurance when Towns misses games. If not Robin Lopez.

As my top priority goal I'd try to get big wing such as Barnes and a PoA defender such as Melton.

[winforlose]

He missed that Culver pick, but honestly it happens every year, so I don't really care. Culver has potential, so going for higher potential is a good strategy. But even if Rosas failed execution of that draft, the vision was right.

I also think that in current league size DOES matter, but it should size on wings, in backcourt etc, not only C/PF positions. I also think that with importance of perimeter shooting, the effort at boxing out and mobility is more important than size alone. Many good teams in current NBA might be viewed as undersized / small ball teams. They mitigate this issue with team effort, defensive scheme and versatility.

I understand your point, but I have to ask, can JO play the PF? Can someone 6’4 211 guard someone 6’8-6’10 between 225 and 250? Could V8 rebound the way he is rebounding if he was the size of JMAC? There is a time for size and a time for speed and of course having both is optimal. But look at the Utah games when KAT was out with Covid. Neither Reid nor Knight could guard Gobert. Lob dunk after lob dunk not to mention trips to the FT line because they were not big enough to defend him. I honestly believe if we had a true C like Bam playing next to KAT we would have 10 more wins this seasons. The same is true of a guy like Vuc or even a more traditional PF size guy who plays C like Wood.

The issue is KAT was a PF when he was drafted and played C his entire career. Pairing that with a smaller PF means we have to fight that much harder for boards and to defend the paint. This is the origin of KAT’s foul trouble issues, the size differential. Add to that some bad habits and undisciplined play on offense, and when KAT is on the bench we are helpless against opposing bigs. For more proof look at the Washington and Cleveland games. Lack of size will prevent us from doing anything long term.

As I said before size does matter. JO can't guard Giannis or Gobert. Our starting five plays well with Vando even if he is a tad undersized with 6'9" 215lbs, 7'1 wingspan. It is basically a small ball lineup as well, because Vando has size of big wing and we are not that big at SF/SG with Edwards and DLo. But they mesh well together, and I remember games where Gobert could not guard Towns in 1 vs 1.

The problem with all this topic is that you see lack of size as main problem and adding size at PF/C as an automatic antidote for us to be top defense and offence. I think that we have many problems that cannot be solved by simply adding size. That's why I see lack of size as one of many problems of this roster:

* - inconsistent ball movement, lack of quality corner 3 attempts
* - inconsistent 3pt shooting
* - we create many fast break opportunities, but we are inefficient at converting them
* - without Beverley we don't have reliable PoA defender (Okogie can't shoot)
* - Towns TOs rate in spotup, decision making
* - lack of rim runner options (Vando is getting better here, but Reid and Towns are not natural rim runners)
* - lack of options for low man in x-out scheme, Vando and MCD are getting better as low men, I would add another big wing in rotation. On paper Prince could have played this role, but...

Where I would definitely add size is backup C/PF position, because we have there Reid who is more finesse player and MCD who 6'11" and 200 lbs. But my vision is that we should add a player, not necessary replace Reid and MCD. Let me explain. For instance, we saw Monroe working well for us, he is a big, traditional C. He impacted the game with his passing, rebounding and size. However, in aggressive perimeter defense (blitz/show) he looked like a dead fish. This defensive scheme is our calling card. It means that Monroe type of player can't be playing any significant minutes for us, BUT can provide 5-10 minutes against certain matchups. I would love to add Cousins, who has size, is familiar with Finch as our 2/3 center depending on matchups, and an insurance when Towns misses games. If not Robin Lopez.

As my top priority goal I'd try to get big wing such as Barnes and a PoA defender such as Melton.

I respect your position, I really do. I just don’t agree with it. The Washington game is a perfect example of where my view of things and yours differ. Harrell owned V8 for most of the game because as you said in the Blitz/show scheme KAT was away from the paint and V8 was neither big enough or strong enough to cover. Now imagine having someone who was big enough, strong enough, or skilled enough at guarding bigger people who could have contained him. That game goes from L to a W. The loss to the Pels where KAT couldn’t grab a board an JV just overpowered us is another example. The Cavs steamrolled us because they were too big to contain. I could go on.

Monroe was out of the league in large part because he was too slow to play effective defense even in the traditional center role. Monroe also was never known for elite rebounding or scoring. While he played great for us and I really like him, he was not exactly a stand out center, especially in the years leading to his departure from the NBA.

We agree completely that having more size at the PG, SG, and SF is very important as well. The fewer mismatches in man or switching concepts the better. Likewise on offense the more mismatches you can create with your size the more opportunities for open 3s, layups, and dunks. But short of moving V8 to SF (something I badly want to do if we get another big,) it is unlikely we get a non PF or C who moves the needle on defensive rebounding in a meaningful way. I haven’t checked where we are now, but for a long time we were dead last, and that was because of small ball.

Finally, and this cannot be overstated, if you are going to play small ball, you MUST box out. Finch was saying we are one of the worst box out teams in the league. When you lose the natural size, take a ton of 3s (which often have long rebounds,) and don’t box out you lose basketball games you otherwise should have won. We are working on improving box out, but the only short term fix is more natural rebounding bigs who can pick up the slack and who hopefully already know how to box out.

[minimus]

As I said before size does matter. JO can't guard Giannis or Gobert. Our starting five plays well with Vando even if he is a tad undersized with 6'9" 215lbs, 7'1 wingspan. It is basically a small ball lineup as well, because Vando has size of big wing and we are not that big at SF/SG with Edwards and DLo. But they mesh well together, and I remember games where Gobert could not guard Towns in 1 vs 1.

The problem with all this topic is that you see lack of size as main problem and adding size at PF/C as an automatic antidote for us to be top defense and offence. I think that we have many problems that cannot be solved by simply adding size. That's why I see lack of size as one of many problems of this roster:

* - inconsistent ball movement, lack of quality corner 3 attempts
* - inconsistent 3pt shooting
* - we create many fast break opportunities, but we are inefficient at converting them
* - without Beverley we don't have reliable PoA defender (Okogie can't shoot)
* - Towns TOs rate in spotup, decision making
* - lack of rim runner options (Vando is getting better here, but Reid and Towns are not natural rim runners)
* - lack of options for low man in x-out scheme, Vando and MCD are getting better as low men, I would add another big wing in rotation. On paper Prince could have played this role, but...

Where I would definitely add size is backup C/PF position, because we have there Reid who is more finesse player and MCD who 6'11" and 200 lbs. But my vision is that we should add a player, not necessary replace Reid and MCD. Let me explain. For instance, we saw Monroe working well for us, he is a big, traditional C. He impacted the game with his passing, rebounding and size. However, in aggressive perimeter defense (blitz/show) he looked like a dead fish. This defensive scheme is our calling card. It means that Monroe type of player can't be playing any significant minutes for us, BUT can provide 5-10 minutes against certain matchups. I would love to add Cousins, who has size, is familiar with Finch as our 2/3 center depending on matchups, and an insurance when Towns misses games. If not Robin Lopez.

As my top priority goal I'd try to get big wing such as Barnes and a PoA defender such as Melton.

I respect your position, I really do. I just don’t agree with it. The Washington game is a perfect example of where my view of things and yours differ. Harrell owned V8 for most of the game because as you said in the Blitz/show scheme KAT was away from the paint and V8 was neither big enough or strong enough to cover. Now imagine having someone who was big enough, strong enough, or skilled enough at guarding bigger people who could have contained him. That game goes from L to a W. The loss to the Pels where KAT couldn’t grab a board an JV just overpowered us is another example. The Cavs steamrolled us because they were too big to contain. I could go on.

Monroe was out of the league in large part because he was too slow to play effective defense even in the traditional center role. Monroe also was never known for elite rebounding or scoring. While he played great for us and I really like him, he was not exactly a stand out center, especially in the years leading to his departure from the NBA.

We agree completely that having more size at the PG, SG, and SF is very important as well. The fewer mismatches in man or switching concepts the better. Likewise on offense the more mismatches you can create with your size the more opportunities for open 3s, layups, and dunks. But short of moving V8 to SF (something I badly want to do if we get another big,) it is unlikely we get a non PF or C who moves the needle on defensive rebounding in a meaningful way. I haven’t checked where we are now, but for a long time we were dead last, and that was because of small ball.

Finally, and this cannot be overstated, if you are going to play small ball, you MUST box out. Finch was saying we are one of the worst box out teams in the league. When you lose the natural size, take a ton of 3s (which often have long rebounds,) and don’t box out you lose basketball games you otherwise should have won. We are working on improving box out, but the only short term fix is more natural rebounding bigs who can pick up the slack and who hopefully already know how to box out.

Watch on YouTube

1) Again, it is not only about size. If you are out of position as low men in x-out scheme it is an open dunk for opponent. Watch how Bolmaro defended perfectly Harrell. Now I am asking myself, why Bolmaro who is a rookie in NBA was able to read situation and Edwards/V8/Reid/KAT were awful at reading situation? There were either overhelping, or ball watching, or not boxing out. This should be fixed asap

2) I agree that it would help to have someone bigger than V8 in such situations. But I can see only two players who on paper can improve us in defence Simmons and Turner without hurting in offence. Simmons because of playmaking and finishing at rim (both elite), Turner because of 3pt shooting. But the price to add such players is high. I am ready to give our young players more time to develop, before trading them for Simmons/Turner.

3) When we speak about size I prefer mobility + size, vs just size. That mean I would be happy to pair V8/MCD with Jeramy Grant 6'8 with a huge wingspan 7'2.5, even a declining RoCo 6'8 with 7'2.5. Guys who know who to act as low men.

[winforlose]

As I said before size does matter. JO can't guard Giannis or Gobert. Our starting five plays well with Vando even if he is a tad undersized with 6'9" 215lbs, 7'1 wingspan. It is basically a small ball lineup as well, because Vando has size of big wing and we are not that big at SF/SG with Edwards and DLo. But they mesh well together, and I remember games where Gobert could not guard Towns in 1 vs 1.

The problem with all this topic is that you see lack of size as main problem and adding size at PF/C as an automatic antidote for us to be top defense and offence. I think that we have many problems that cannot be solved by simply adding size. That's why I see lack of size as one of many problems of this roster:

* - inconsistent ball movement, lack of quality corner 3 attempts
* - inconsistent 3pt shooting
* - we create many fast break opportunities, but we are inefficient at converting them
* - without Beverley we don't have reliable PoA defender (Okogie can't shoot)
* - Towns TOs rate in spotup, decision making
* - lack of rim runner options (Vando is getting better here, but Reid and Towns are not natural rim runners)
* - lack of options for low man in x-out scheme, Vando and MCD are getting better as low men, I would add another big wing in rotation. On paper Prince could have played this role, but...

Where I would definitely add size is backup C/PF position, because we have there Reid who is more finesse player and MCD who 6'11" and 200 lbs. But my vision is that we should add a player, not necessary replace Reid and MCD. Let me explain. For instance, we saw Monroe working well for us, he is a big, traditional C. He impacted the game with his passing, rebounding and size. However, in aggressive perimeter defense (blitz/show) he looked like a dead fish. This defensive scheme is our calling card. It means that Monroe type of player can't be playing any significant minutes for us, BUT can provide 5-10 minutes against certain matchups. I would love to add Cousins, who has size, is familiar with Finch as our 2/3 center depending on matchups, and an insurance when Towns misses games. If not Robin Lopez.

As my top priority goal I'd try to get big wing such as Barnes and a PoA defender such as Melton.

I respect your position, I really do. I just don’t agree with it. The Washington game is a perfect example of where my view of things and yours differ. Harrell owned V8 for most of the game because as you said in the Blitz/show scheme KAT was away from the paint and V8 was neither big enough or strong enough to cover. Now imagine having someone who was big enough, strong enough, or skilled enough at guarding bigger people who could have contained him. That game goes from L to a W. The loss to the Pels where KAT couldn’t grab a board an JV just overpowered us is another example. The Cavs steamrolled us because they were too big to contain. I could go on.

Monroe was out of the league in large part because he was too slow to play effective defense even in the traditional center role. Monroe also was never known for elite rebounding or scoring. While he played great for us and I really like him, he was not exactly a stand out center, especially in the years leading to his departure from the NBA.

We agree completely that having more size at the PG, SG, and SF is very important as well. The fewer mismatches in man or switching concepts the better. Likewise on offense the more mismatches you can create with your size the more opportunities for open 3s, layups, and dunks. But short of moving V8 to SF (something I badly want to do if we get another big,) it is unlikely we get a non PF or C who moves the needle on defensive rebounding in a meaningful way. I haven’t checked where we are now, but for a long time we were dead last, and that was because of small ball.

Finally, and this cannot be overstated, if you are going to play small ball, you MUST box out. Finch was saying we are one of the worst box out teams in the league. When you lose the natural size, take a ton of 3s (which often have long rebounds,) and don’t box out you lose basketball games you otherwise should have won. We are working on improving box out, but the only short term fix is more natural rebounding bigs who can pick up the slack and who hopefully already know how to box out.

Watch on YouTube

1) Again, it is not only about size. If you are out of position as low men in x-out scheme it is an open dunk for opponent. Watch how Bolmaro defended perfectly Harrell. Now I am asking myself, why Bolmaro who is a rookie in NBA was able to read situation and Edwards/V8/Reid/KAT were awful at reading situation? There were either overhelping, or ball watching, or not boxing out. This should be fixed asap

2) I agree that it would help to have someone bigger than V8 in such situations. But I can see only two players who on paper can improve us in defence Simmons and Turner without hurting in offence. Simmons because of playmaking and finishing at rim (both elite), Turner because of 3pt shooting. But the price to add such players is high. I am ready to give our young players more time to develop, before trading them for Simmons/Turner.

3) When we speak about size I prefer mobility + size, vs just size. That mean I would be happy to pair V8/MCD with Jeramy Grant 6'8 with a huge wingspan 7'2.5, even a declining RoCo 6'8 with 7'2.5. Guys who know who to act as low men.

There any number of bigs who could protect the paint while KAT is away from it. I agree with you that when scheme is improperly executed bad things happen, but even when it was properly executed you saw Ant and V8 get smoked by Harrell. He isn’t the only one either, just the easiest example.

I looked it up in between my last post and your response, we rank 28th tied for 27th in defensive rebounds. This is after a major uptick (more than 5 above our per game average in the last 3 games.) What that tells you is even with a major upswing we are still near the very bottom of the entire league in defensive rebounding. Consequently we are ranked 19th at opponent 2nd chance points. Funny enough we are ranked 3rd overall at scoring second chance points but that should be no surprise when you consider how good V8 is at offensive rebounding. I said it before and I will say it again, outside of boxing out and technique the biggest factor in rebounding is size. When opponents out size us they get multiple opportunities to score inside and based on the above numbers they often do.

This conversation started because we were debating the merits of playing smaller. According to some quick web searches we are the 2nd smallest team in the NBA with the Rockets being the smallest. We are also the second lightest team with only Denver weighing less. Remove V8 and our offensive rebounding numbers plummet. I believe size plays a direct role in rebounding and rebounding plays a direct role in outcome. I think there is enough evidence to show our difficulties with rebounding have cost us games, and that even though we are doing better than in prior years, we are being held back by lack of size.

[minimus]

I respect your position, I really do. I just don’t agree with it. The Washington game is a perfect example of where my view of things and yours differ. Harrell owned V8 for most of the game because as you said in the Blitz/show scheme KAT was away from the paint and V8 was neither big enough or strong enough to cover. Now imagine having someone who was big enough, strong enough, or skilled enough at guarding bigger people who could have contained him. That game goes from L to a W. The loss to the Pels where KAT couldn’t grab a board an JV just overpowered us is another example. The Cavs steamrolled us because they were too big to contain. I could go on.

Monroe was out of the league in large part because he was too slow to play effective defense even in the traditional center role. Monroe also was never known for elite rebounding or scoring. While he played great for us and I really like him, he was not exactly a stand out center, especially in the years leading to his departure from the NBA.

We agree completely that having more size at the PG, SG, and SF is very important as well. The fewer mismatches in man or switching concepts the better. Likewise on offense the more mismatches you can create with your size the more opportunities for open 3s, layups, and dunks. But short of moving V8 to SF (something I badly want to do if we get another big,) it is unlikely we get a non PF or C who moves the needle on defensive rebounding in a meaningful way. I haven’t checked where we are now, but for a long time we were dead last, and that was because of small ball.

Finally, and this cannot be overstated, if you are going to play small ball, you MUST box out. Finch was saying we are one of the worst box out teams in the league. When you lose the natural size, take a ton of 3s (which often have long rebounds,) and don’t box out you lose basketball games you otherwise should have won. We are working on improving box out, but the only short term fix is more natural rebounding bigs who can pick up the slack and who hopefully already know how to box out.

Watch on YouTube

1) Again, it is not only about size. If you are out of position as low men in x-out scheme it is an open dunk for opponent. Watch how Bolmaro defended perfectly Harrell. Now I am asking myself, why Bolmaro who is a rookie in NBA was able to read situation and Edwards/V8/Reid/KAT were awful at reading situation? There were either overhelping, or ball watching, or not boxing out. This should be fixed asap

2) I agree that it would help to have someone bigger than V8 in such situations. But I can see only two players who on paper can improve us in defence Simmons and Turner without hurting in offence. Simmons because of playmaking and finishing at rim (both elite), Turner because of 3pt shooting. But the price to add such players is high. I am ready to give our young players more time to develop, before trading them for Simmons/Turner.

3) When we speak about size I prefer mobility + size, vs just size. That mean I would be happy to pair V8/MCD with Jeramy Grant 6'8 with a huge wingspan 7'2.5, even a declining RoCo 6'8 with 7'2.5. Guys who know who to act as low men.

There any number of bigs who could protect the paint while KAT is away from it. I agree with you that when scheme is improperly executed bad things happen, but even when it was properly executed you saw Ant and V8 get smoked by Harrell. He isn’t the only one either, just the easiest example.

I looked it up in between my last post and your response, we rank 28th tied for 27th in defensive rebounds. This is after a major uptick (more than 5 above our per game average in the last 3 games.) What that tells you is even with a major upswing we are still near the very bottom of the entire league in defensive rebounding. Consequently we are ranked 19th at opponent 2nd chance points. Funny enough we are ranked 3rd overall at scoring second chance points but that should be no surprise when you consider how good V8 is at offensive rebounding. I said it before and I will say it again, outside of boxing out and technique the biggest factor in rebounding is size. When opponents out size us they get multiple opportunities to score inside and based on the above numbers they often do.

This conversation started because we were debating the merits of playing smaller. According to some quick web searches we are the 2nd smallest team in the NBA with the Rockets being the smallest. We are also the second lightest team with only Denver weighing less. Remove V8 and our offensive rebounding numbers plummet. I believe size plays a direct role in rebounding and rebounding plays a direct role in outcome. I think there is enough evidence to show our difficulties with rebounding have cost us games, and that even though we are doing better than in prior years, we are being held back by lack of size.

1) I don't think we were executing properly against WAS (Harrell). But we are still one of the youngest team in NBA, so technique can be still corrected. If we can add Turner who can coexist with Towns and V8 and play 25mpg it would be an ideal frontcourt. I'd be okay with trading Prince, Okogie, Reid and top5 protected FRP for Turner, but I don't want Vando, MCD, Nowell, Bolmaro to be part of the deal.

2) top5 defensive rebounding teams are MIL, UTA, GSW, BRO, PHO. You can be good rebounding team even without starting C. Moreover, you can win without classic bigs in starting lineups.

3) Call me crazy but I am more intrigued about Bolmaro development, than acquiring a "true" bigman. CHI is #1 in East, GSW is #1 is West. They both play either without a true big or with someone like Vuc, Bjelica. But I am really impressed with Caruso, Gary Payton emergence. It is like old discussion about Wiseman vs Edwards. I think Bolmaro can become our version of Caruso - versatile, unselfish defender who can score. You can build around different defensive identities, I prefer one where we have multiple versatile defenders.

Watch on YouTube

[winforlose]

Watch on YouTube

1) Again, it is not only about size. If you are out of position as low men in x-out scheme it is an open dunk for opponent. Watch how Bolmaro defended perfectly Harrell. Now I am asking myself, why Bolmaro who is a rookie in NBA was able to read situation and Edwards/V8/Reid/KAT were awful at reading situation? There were either overhelping, or ball watching, or not boxing out. This should be fixed asap

2) I agree that it would help to have someone bigger than V8 in such situations. But I can see only two players who on paper can improve us in defence Simmons and Turner without hurting in offence. Simmons because of playmaking and finishing at rim (both elite), Turner because of 3pt shooting. But the price to add such players is high. I am ready to give our young players more time to develop, before trading them for Simmons/Turner.

3) When we speak about size I prefer mobility + size, vs just size. That mean I would be happy to pair V8/MCD with Jeramy Grant 6'8 with a huge wingspan 7'2.5, even a declining RoCo 6'8 with 7'2.5. Guys who know who to act as low men.

There any number of bigs who could protect the paint while KAT is away from it. I agree with you that when scheme is improperly executed bad things happen, but even when it was properly executed you saw Ant and V8 get smoked by Harrell. He isn’t the only one either, just the easiest example.

I looked it up in between my last post and your response, we rank 28th tied for 27th in defensive rebounds. This is after a major uptick (more than 5 above our per game average in the last 3 games.) What that tells you is even with a major upswing we are still near the very bottom of the entire league in defensive rebounding. Consequently we are ranked 19th at opponent 2nd chance points. Funny enough we are ranked 3rd overall at scoring second chance points but that should be no surprise when you consider how good V8 is at offensive rebounding. I said it before and I will say it again, outside of boxing out and technique the biggest factor in rebounding is size. When opponents out size us they get multiple opportunities to score inside and based on the above numbers they often do.

This conversation started because we were debating the merits of playing smaller. According to some quick web searches we are the 2nd smallest team in the NBA with the Rockets being the smallest. We are also the second lightest team with only Denver weighing less. Remove V8 and our offensive rebounding numbers plummet. I believe size plays a direct role in rebounding and rebounding plays a direct role in outcome. I think there is enough evidence to show our difficulties with rebounding have cost us games, and that even though we are doing better than in prior years, we are being held back by lack of size.

1) I don't think we were executing properly against WAS (Harrell). But we are still one of the youngest team in NBA, so technique can be still corrected. If we can add Turner who can coexist with Towns and V8 and play 25mpg it would be an ideal frontcourt. I'd be okay with trading Prince, Okogie, Reid and top5 protected FRP for Turner, but I don't want Vando, MCD, Nowell, Bolmaro to be part of the deal.

2) top5 defensive rebounding teams are MIL, UTA, GSW, BRO, PHO. You can be good rebounding team even without starting C. Moreover, you can win without classic bigs in starting lineups.

3) Call me crazy but I am more intrigued about Bolmaro development, than acquiring a "true" bigman. CHI is #1 in East, GSW is #1 is West. They both play either without a true big or with someone like Vuc, Bjelica. But I am really impressed with Caruso, Gary Payton emergence. It is like old discussion about Wiseman vs Edwards. I think Bolmaro can become our version of Caruso - versatile, unselfish defender who can score. You can build around different defensive identities, I prefer one where we have multiple versatile defenders.

Watch on YouTube

1, Mostly agree. I disagree about Leo as I think waiting for him to develop is going to be an issue. He just isn’t remotely good enough to be on the floor. He needs to spend a full season in Iowa learning NBA pace.

2, strongly disagree. Bucks have Portis rebounding 9.2 and Portis is big enough to play traditional big. Utah has Gobert. Brooklyn has Aldridge and Claxton backing him up. Phoenix has Ayton who has been averaging 11 boards. All of these teams have one or more bigs who are solid plus decent size PFs. GSW is the exception, and I don’t fully understand how they are winning, they seem to be the exception to most rules this year. Remember our weakness is boxing out and then on top of that we are super small.

3. Back to Leo he is worse offensively than V8 and worse defensively than JO. I cannot find a single reason to give him even garbage minutes unless it is for development. He should be in Iowa. His potential may exist, but he has shown nothing thus far. Want proof, look at his stat line. To your other point, when KAT is out we lost. It happened last year, for the most part it happened this year. Without a legit big who can produce at least some of what KAT does on offense and defense we cannot withstand losing KAT for any length of time. Ant isn’t ready and Dlo isn’t consistent. We must acquire a 15/10 or 20/10 big who can play with KAT. He will get plenty of touches in the flow of the offense and when KAT is on the bench. Also, another big lets KAT spend more time on the bench and not get worn down before the playoffs.

[minimus]

1, Mostly agree. I disagree about Leo as I think waiting for him to develop is going to be an issue. He just isn’t remotely good enough to be on the floor. He needs to spend a full season in Iowa learning NBA pace.

2, strongly disagree. Bucks have Portis rebounding 9.2 and Portis is big enough to play traditional big. Utah has Gobert. Brooklyn has Aldridge and Claxton backing him up. Phoenix has Ayton who has been averaging 11 boards. All of these teams have one or more bigs who are solid plus decent size PFs. GSW is the exception, and I don’t fully understand how they are winning, they seem to be the exception to most rules this year. Remember our weakness is boxing out and then on top of that we are super small.

3. Back to Leo he is worse offensively than V8 and worse defensively than JO. I cannot find a single reason to give him even garbage minutes unless it is for development. He should be in Iowa. His potential may exist, but he has shown nothing thus far. Want proof, look at his stat line. To your other point, when KAT is out we lost. It happened last year, for the most part it happened this year. Without a legit big who can produce at least some of what KAT does on offense and defense we cannot withstand losing KAT for any length of time. Ant isn’t ready and Dlo isn’t consistent. We must acquire a 15/10 or 20/10 big who can play with KAT. He will get plenty of touches in the flow of the offense and when KAT is on the bench. Also, another big lets KAT spend more time on the bench and not get worn down before the playoffs.

I remember one particular moment during one of the first games of Bolmaro here, it happened that opponent bigman was left alone under our rim. The only (!!!) player who saw this and boxed him out was Bolmaro. It was the same high basketball IQ, high effort moments as proper rotation against Harrell in WAS. It is not shown in stat sheet, but every NBA team needs such players. It is skills of players who got strong education in European basketball. It is different type of talent, and I agree that you might not seen anything particular here.

I hope we improve our depth, acquiring good versatile defenders. And I hope we add size. But I value talent more than size and I value fit more than size.For instance, our staring five is the best in NBA by NetRtg. And our NetRtg quarter by quarter shows that we have problem with bench production. It is important because we live in real world, and have limited resource to improve our team. It means that if Gupta has to choose between adding size vs adding talent, I hope he adds talent that fits. If it possible just "scale out" starting lineup identity by adding a quality player on the bench. There are rumors about MIN FO looking for a big, I hope we will hear some good news here.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

P.S. I don't want to continue discussion, I hope my arguments were clear, since I had to translate it in English

[Biff Cooper]

So they offered Ant in a deal for Simmons and Philly didn't take it? Must have been some really good stuff in the offer for Minnesota for them to decline.

Edit - oops - I get the names Edwards and Russell mixed up. I read the name in that bullet several times to make sure they were talking about DLo and not Ant, and still got it wrong. Don't know what it is. Both are pretty common names and neither player is referred to by their last name all that often.

[shrink]

So they offered Ant in a deal for Simmons and Philly didn't take it? Must have been some really good stuff in the offer for Minnesota for them to decline.

Edit - oops - I get the names Edwards and Russell mixed up. I read the name in that bullet several times to make sure they were talking about DLo and not Ant, and still got it wrong. Don't know what it is. Both are pretty common names and neither player is referred to by their last name all that often.

I’m just happy to see someone else do it, since I do it all the time!