Re: Trade Talk (Part Eleven): 2022 Offseason Edition

[King Ken]

Trae/Capela work every year due to the PnR.

Trae/Murray is working, it's not perfect but it's working. Just not enough to where I can say, Atlanta shouldn't consider thinking about trades for Murray but well enough to say, Atlanta should resign Murray. He makes us better. That's a sure thing.

OO is not limited. He's just your typical high-end young role-player. We know what he can and can't do and what's his best fit. He's definitely a long-term 4 but he's just fine as a backup 5 which in our switch-heavy defense, means you have to guard 1-5 and he excels at it as well as defending 1v1 in the post against 4s or 5s.

I haven't seen one Hawk fan suggest Rudy this year. Not one. KAT, yes, plenty. Rudy, none and I am probably his biggest fan at least in the Hawks universe.

KAT is a challenging piece to build around. Ant is a challenging piece to build around. Luka is a challenging piece to build around. What the **** does that mean?

Spoiler:

Rudy wouldn't solve our problems yet he's worth 40+ million for the next three years. Just next year, the Hawks have to pay Murray, Okongwu, and Bey. That's likely to be around 70 million dollars. You add Hunter's 20 plus Trae's 40 plus Gobert's 42, you are talking about 175 million in 6 players. Make it make sense? One of the biggest drawbacks of a KAT deal is his contract. One of the reasons why Atlanta has to be right to trade for him. He has to be a difference-maker. If he can't be a difference-maker, Atlanta can't trade for him.

Rudy has to be a difference maker as Atlanta would have one if not the highest salaries in the NBA by a mile. I don't see it. I don't see it honestly with any team. 40+ million, 30+, 3 more seasons. That's a lot!

This is just me speaking for a Gobert for Capela/JC deal. Murray is only for KAT. You already knew that too. You know there is no one in Atlanta willing to trade Murray for anything less than Murray. It would have to be for something as good as Murray with upside to get us to contender status.

It's a no for me and that's a Gobert for Capela/JC deal.

CHI?POR?

Spoiler:

The contract is a killer for Chicago and Vooch is a FA so they can resign him to a more fair deal which helps their cap and Portland doesn't have the contracts to even move for Gobert nor would they want that contract.

I will have to agree, if there was a team that would be your best chance, it would be Atlanta because they have matching contracts with JC/Capela for Gobert. The issue is, does Atlanta want the contract and considering what's around the corner for Murray, Okongwu, and Bey? I can tell you, we are looking to offload JC's contract and get as many assets we can get for Capela this offseason and move on from both of them and adding Gobert for them would be a Quin call and one that Ressler must sign off on as this means LT for the 2 years at the very least.

I am not saying this is an awful deal, it's more of a direction deal. Does Atlanta want to go in this direction? Also, does MIN want to do this as well? That's another question to consider.

You guys fired your coach, that’s a clear indictment of the season. I made an accurate summary of things. Role player = limited. That’s all I meant.

Ken, with all due respect, everybody and their brother and their uncle and their second cousin wants Kat. Why? Because he can fit w just about any team offensively. He’s a unicorn. You don’t trade that. We both know, when a star player is being traded, whoever obtains the best player wins the trade. $1 beats 4 quarters 99.9% of the time.

Murray is obviously worth more than a quarter but u get my point. Trae is your $1 player but he is not someone I am interested in. Most posters insist that those 4 quarters the Knicks are offering are a great deal for Minnesota. It just gets tiring as a Wolves fan having to go through this every time we get a good player. That is not an indictment of you personally.

What I meant by ‘challenging’ is a player who excels on one side of the ball but has significant limitations on the other. Ben Simmons is an extreme case. Kat is not an ideal C today. If the Wolves had a prime Serge Ibaka they’d be set. There’s just not a lot of guys u can pair w him & be efficent on both sides of the ball. OO could develop into a decent fit.

You don’t have to explain yourself on Rudy/Murray brother. I totally get it. That’s why I mentioned the Quin connection and left it at that. Rudy cost Kahnally five #1 picks and Murray cost the Hawks a similar # of picks. I assume our Pobo would not trade Rudy for assets that are worth significantly less than what he paid.

TLDR: I want to build around the Ant/Kat combo. Don’t like Kat at the 4. I’d put Kat back at the 5 w four long, switchable guys 1-4. I’d trade Rudy but don’t see many options. After punting on DLo they need to come up w a long term solution at PG. TC blew it passing on Murray.

We want KAT at the 5 too.

Murray is an top end player. He makes us better and leads the team in minutes and is a part of all rotations. Not even Trae is a part of all rotations. I don't get your point. Murray is significant. Nearly as significant as Young from a Basketball prospective. If we was to move him, the return would have to be just as significant based on his value to us.

I think KAT is difficult fit and he's been a difficult fit. Even for us, he would be difficult to fit on defense. That said, Sacramento has proved, if you are going to go all of the way, go all of the way in one direction. This idea of balance just doesn't work in this modern NBA where the talent level is insane.

The Rudy trade was an overpay but I get it. Utah built everything around Rudy to the detriment of others, now he's on a team where he has to play a role and it's difficult. Add the age and salary, it's real difficult. His offensive regression is real and was noticeable in Utah at the end but Minny, it's obvious. Defensively, he still looks great to me. Just doesn't have the personnel in MIN as you guys have a lot of players at different stages while Utah was win now based with vets. I still like Rudy but man, if you are a liability on offense, unless his defense is prime Utah, Idk how you justify 25 million per much less 40. It's almost Westbrookish. Rudy should be making 22 million based on his current play.

He had a chance to get Murray but choose Gobert. Probably was a bad move but MIN felt Utah wasn't using him correctly and that was proven to be false. It's always hard because Gobert has a tremendous last 5 years in terms of trending but the regression was clear last year offensively and it's worse this year.

I could understand the want to built around KAT and Ant. I would build around them two but once KAT supermax starts, he becomes a lot less of an trade asset due to the salaries that would need to go out in return

[Klomp]

So after seeing that answer from a Hawks fan, what other teams?

Sorry, one Hawks fan's opinion doesn't change how I feel...

[shrink]

Whoever Trae defends tonight, the Wolves just gives their guy the ball, and he goes straight through him with no resistance.

[Klomp]

Hawks certainly have no use for one of the best defensive bigs in NBA history, as we witnessed tonight

[Note30]

Hawks certainly have no use for one of the best defensive bigs in NBA history, as we witnessed tonight

Gonna use this one game logic anytime I want to justify my arguments and call you out specifically.

[Klomp]

Hawks certainly have no use for one of the best defensive bigs in NBA history, as we witnessed tonight

Gonna use this one game logic anytime I want to justify my arguments and call you out specifically.

Read on Twitter

[shrink]

I admit I haven’t watched much of the Hawks this year, so I was curious to see John Collins, who posters have been trying to trade to the Wolves for three years. There wasn’t a lot to see. 6 points in 27 minutes, and some really poor D. I checked his season stats, and he’s down to 12.7 PPG and his 3P% has dropped to 25%. Since he’s making $75 mil over the next three years, I’m pushing him into the “bad contract” category.

[shrink]

While there isn’t this discussion on the Trade Board right now, some variation of this set of posts has been my least favorite continuous discussion for the last five years:

POSTER: Rumor is Towns will demand a trade, so I think he’ll want to go to my favorite team. We want to pair him with our best two players, so here’s a lowball offer. When a player demands a trade, you lose leverage, and you don’t want to lose him for nothing!

ME: I hadn’t heard that rumor. Towns has always been very loyal to MIN, and since the Wolves aren’t a free agent destination, his level of talent is pretty hard to replace.

POSTER: Whatever. Towns sucks on defense anyway. Good luck with your sucky team!

ME: $&@#&#$!!!

[Mamba4Goat]

I admit I haven’t watched much of the Hawks this year, so I was curious to see John Collins, who posters have been trying to trade to the Wolves for three years. There wasn’t a lot to see. 6 points in 27 minutes, and some really poor D. I checked his season stats, and he’s down to 12.7 PPG and his 3P% has dropped to 25%. Since he’s making $75 mil over the next three years, I’m pushing him into the “bad contract” category.

I don’t think Collins has really lost a step. He’s just become an increasingly poor fit there. Can’t necessarily be used as a roll man with Capela/Okongwu needing to fill that role since they don’t really have much to their game. He’s being very marginalized and it’s not good for anyone involved. I’d imagine Atlanta offloads him for peanuts this offseason.

[younggunsmn]

Hawks certainly have no use for one of the best defensive bigs in NBA history, as we witnessed tonight

Were we watching the same game where Okongwu outplayed Gobert and cooked us for 16 points and 9 offensive rebounds and Capela also had a double double?
Gobert isn't going to fix Trae Young being a traffic cone any more than Murray/Hunter/Capela have.
If Okongwu can stay healthy he is their future at the 5, he altered a lot of shots in the 2nd half, was a monster on the glass, and was a big reason they cut our big 26 point lead in half.

I can't count how many times tonight Gobert took the roller instead of contesting the shot, and he still gave up an offensive rebound on some of those. Some rim protector. I feel like I'm less impressed and losing more patience every time I watch him.
I hate to pick on a guy, but he's a 10 year vet making 40 million dollars who we quadruple mortgaged our future for.
He deserves that level of scrutiny.

[younggunsmn]

We want KAT at the 5 too.

Murray is an top end player. He makes us better and leads the team in minutes and is a part of all rotations. Not even Trae is a part of all rotations. I don't get your point. Murray is significant. Nearly as significant as Young from a Basketball prospective. If we was to move him, the return would have to be just as significant based on his value to us.

I think KAT is difficult fit and he's been a difficult fit. Even for us, he would be difficult to fit on defense. That said, Sacramento has proved, if you are going to go all of the way, go all of the way in one direction. This idea of balance just doesn't work in this modern NBA where the talent level is insane.

The Rudy trade was an overpay but I get it. Utah built everything around Rudy to the detriment of others, now he's on a team where he has to play a role and it's difficult. Add the age and salary, it's real difficult. His offensive regression is real and was noticeable in Utah at the end but Minny, it's obvious. Defensively, he still looks great to me. Just doesn't have the personnel in MIN as you guys have a lot of players at different stages while Utah was win now based with vets. I still like Rudy but man, if you are a liability on offense, unless his defense is prime Utah, Idk how you justify 25 million per much less 40. It's almost Westbrookish. Rudy should be making 22 million based on his current play.

He had a chance to get Murray but choose Gobert. Probably was a bad move but MIN felt Utah wasn't using him correctly and that was proven to be false. It's always hard because Gobert has a tremendous last 5 years in terms of trending but the regression was clear last year offensively and it's worse this year.

I could understand the want to built around KAT and Ant. I would build around them two but once KAT supermax starts, he becomes a lot less of an trade asset due to the salaries that would need to go out in return

Exactly. He had a chance to get Murray but the Spurs would have wanted even more to trade him in conference.
We could probably have had Brogdon for one pick plus Beasley.

Yes Gobert trade was horrible at the time and it has aged like milk sitting out in the sun.
But we are kind of stuck with the experiment for now.
I can see the Hawks offloading Collins/Capela and going with Okongwu/Hunter at the 4/5 and bringing back another wing scorer to compliment Trae. Lauri markaanen would have been perfect for you last offseason.
Gobert for Collins/Capela would be a poor fit for both teams.

Murray being a free agent next offseason and not being able to trade for him and give a max extension severely limits his value as a trade target.

You don't have enough draft picks/assets outside of Trae for KAT, he is just too unique of a player.
If we trade him we are going to be looking for a pick haul like Brooklyn got for Durant or an ascending young player or 2 with 3 or more years of team control like Bridges who compliments ANT. Teams might balk at that, but that will be the asking price.
Gobert is a very very expensive role player at this point and Connelly should have realized that instead of having visions of some kind of super team with 2 odd couple 7 footers in his starting lineup.

[King Ken]

I agree about Gobert for JC/Capela. If Gobert isn't a natural offensive fit for your personnel, you definitely don't want Capela. JC needs to be in a player-movement offense. MIN ain't that. We would have to completely change up the personnel to accommodate Gobert. Just not a fit. Although Bogi would be a nice fit for ya'll but he's opting out so he's likely not available.

Murray gonna have value to teams who can use a two-way PG and will play him at PG. Obviously, for us, we need the value in return that gives us a similar-level player at a more needed position.

I don't know if KAT has that type of value. I even told Hawks fans that realistically, Trae doesn't have the value they may covet. That said, I would have a strong indication that KAT and Gobert will at least continue till ASB next year.

I am not sure Lauri is the ideal fit mainly due it his need for touches. Getting Bey really helped us. We need a center that can really stretch the floor and can run the PnR. Like Kevin was critical for Sabonis. We need a center that fits Trae that's critical. Capela PnR works but his spacing issues don't work for anyone else.

[TimberKat]

I agree about Gobert for JC/Capela. If Gobert isn't a natural offensive fit for your personnel, you definitely don't want Capela. JC needs to be in a player-movement offense. MIN ain't that. We would have to completely change up the personnel to accommodate Gobert. Just not a fit. Although Bogi would be a nice fit for ya'll but he's opting out so he's likely not available.

Murray gonna have value to teams who can use a two-way PG and will play him at PG. Obviously, for us, we need the value in return that gives us a similar-level player at a more needed position.

First, not interested in any Gobert trade right now as I still feel Gobert/Towns will work. However, if any trade involve Gobert/Towns to Atlanta, would like to see JC+Murray+? I would want to center the trade on Murray (JC is a nice to have).

[Neeva]

I admit I haven’t watched much of the Hawks this year, so I was curious to see John Collins, who posters have been trying to trade to the Wolves for three years. There wasn’t a lot to see. 6 points in 27 minutes, and some really poor D. I checked his season stats, and he’s down to 12.7 PPG and his 3P% has dropped to 25%. Since he’s making $75 mil over the next three years, I’m pushing him into the “bad contract” category.

maybe when wolves had a huge hole at PF but not anymore. Hawks have three starters that have terrible contracts (their fans mostly all agree)

[GopherIt!]

That’s just it. trading KAT for a guy who TC could have acquired (vs the aforementioned Rudy) would be compounding a colossal mistake on a bad mistake.

Beyond KAT, we already have SloMo (who we like better) at the 4 and when he slows down (lol) possibly Jaden.

[King Ken]

I admit I haven’t watched much of the Hawks this year, so I was curious to see John Collins, who posters have been trying to trade to the Wolves for three years. There wasn’t a lot to see. 6 points in 27 minutes, and some really poor D. I checked his season stats, and he’s down to 12.7 PPG and his 3P% has dropped to 25%. Since he’s making $75 mil over the next three years, I’m pushing him into the “bad contract” category.

maybe when wolves had a huge hole at PF but not anymore. Hawks have three starters that have terrible contracts (their fans mostly all agree)

He's a really good team defender and positional defender but he's not a good man defender on anyone that's not a traditional 4. His best trait is off-ball movement but Murray and Capela pretty much killed that for JC. Just a bad fit with a rough contract. He's still really good if in the right system with the right personnel but that personnel he needs is basically Utah, GS or PHX if they want to go small with Durant. Most teams in today's NBA don't fit that and his lack of defensive versatility is really his biggest issue. But he's good player. Plays hard. Great teammate, wants to win. We wouldn't mind keeping him if he was making 15per instead of 25per. Ideally, with think JC would be best as a 6th man.

I agree about Gobert for JC/Capela. If Gobert isn't a natural offensive fit for your personnel, you definitely don't want Capela. JC needs to be in a player-movement offense. MIN ain't that. We would have to completely change up the personnel to accommodate Gobert. Just not a fit. Although Bogi would be a nice fit for ya'll but he's opting out so he's likely not available.

Murray gonna have value to teams who can use a two-way PG and will play him at PG. Obviously, for us, we need the value in return that gives us a similar-level player at a more needed position.

First, not interested in any Gobert trade right now as I still feel Gobert/Towns will work. However, if any trade involve Gobert/Towns to Atlanta, would like to see JC+Murray+? I would want to center the trade on Murray (JC is a nice to have).

Murray is just far more valuable for us than anything with Gobert for us. His contract is just too much for us in general. We do need a center but moreso KAT, not Gobert. If not KAT, someone like KAT, not Gobert.

[shrink]

He's a really good team defender and positional defender but he's not a good man defender on anyone that's not a traditional 4. His best trait is off-ball movement but Murray and Capela pretty much killed that for JC. Just a bad fit with a rough contract. He's still really good if in the right system with the right personnel but that personnel he needs is basically Utah, GS or PHX if they want to go small with Durant. Most teams in today's NBA don't fit that and his lack of defensive versatility is really his biggest issue. But he's good player. Plays hard. Great teammate, wants to win. We wouldn't mind keeping him if he was making 15per instead of 25per. Ideally, with think JC would be best as a 6th man.

I agree about Gobert for JC/Capela. If Gobert isn't a natural offensive fit for your personnel, you definitely don't want Capela. JC needs to be in a player-movement offense. MIN ain't that. We would have to completely change up the personnel to accommodate Gobert. Just not a fit. Although Bogi would be a nice fit for ya'll but he's opting out so he's likely not available.

Murray gonna have value to teams who can use a two-way PG and will play him at PG. Obviously, for us, we need the value in return that gives us a similar-level player at a more needed position.

Thanks for coming by and dropping some knowledge on the Hawks, Ken!

Much appreciated!

[Wolveswin]

To Mavs: Gobert + 29 Mavs 1st (returned for now via Nets)
If Irving re-signs, they need D and will be desperate to make team successful around Doncic.

To Nets: THJ + Bertans
Nets move on from failed Simmons experiment while getting playable players.

To Wolves: Simmons + 24/26/28 Mavs 1sts (maybe swap or two)
Wolves get back most lost draft capital for Gobert. Simmons doesn’t replace quality players Wolves sent Ainge, but…

Simmons in Minnesota nice setting with Towns as his emotional support buddy might save his career. He can come off bench at PF behind Anderson and PG behind Conley. Maybe he can find his mojo and work into starter role. He is a bonus gamble, because…

Wolves put NBA GMs on notice, Conley expiring (plus other salary filler) + Mavs draft capital available for all-in trade TAKE TWO.

[Baseline81]

To Mavs: Gobert + 29 Mavs 1st (returned for now via Nets)
If Irving re-signs, they need D and will be desperate to make team successful around Doncic.

To Nets: THJ + Bertans
Nets move on from failed Simmons experiment while getting playable players.

To Wolves: Simmons + 24/26/28 Mavs 1sts (maybe swap or two)
Wolves get back most lost draft capital for Gobert. Simmons doesn’t replace quality players Wolves sent Ainge, but…

Simmons in Minnesota nice setting with Towns as his emotional support buddy might save his career. He can come off bench at PF behind Anderson and PG behind Conley. Maybe he can find his mojo and work into starter role. He is a bonus gamble, because…

Wolves put NBA GMs on notice, Conley expiring (plus other salary filler) + Mavs draft capital available for all-in trade TAKE TWO.

Folks on this forum need to let go of Simmons.

[Wolveswin]

To Mavs: Gobert + 29 Mavs 1st (returned for now via Nets)
If Irving re-signs, they need D and will be desperate to make team successful around Doncic.

To Nets: THJ + Bertans
Nets move on from failed Simmons experiment while getting playable players.

To Wolves: Simmons + 24/26/28 Mavs 1sts (maybe swap or two)
Wolves get back most lost draft capital for Gobert. Simmons doesn’t replace quality players Wolves sent Ainge, but…

Simmons in Minnesota nice setting with Towns as his emotional support buddy might save his career. He can come off bench at PF behind Anderson and PG behind Conley. Maybe he can find his mojo and work into starter role. He is a bonus gamble, because…

Wolves put NBA GMs on notice, Conley expiring (plus other salary filler) + Mavs draft capital available for all-in trade TAKE TWO.

Folks on this forum need to let go of Simmons.

Simmons has a place in the NBA. He has played in the absolute two hardest settings (fan bases) in which to play. Places in which former players admit having PTSD like symptoms from the stress, anxiety and straight up abuse they endured. Simmons has played in situations he has been expected to be the 2nd or 3rd star (which he obviously isn’t) while those expectations crippled his mental fortitude. Simmons has proven both of those factors (and more) don’t make for a successful Ben Simmons.

Simmons will eventually land in a NBA soft spot. Indiana, San Antonio, or a Midwest town ready to coddle him back to the role player he is (and finally at some point on the role player contract he deserves).

With that said, trade scenario above, he is simply negative contract filler to offset any negative contract value Gobert has (real or otherwise). But as previously said, a pure flyer bonus in MN next to buddy Towns. Anything Wolves get from the overpaid role player is gravy. More gravy they get, the more tasty the move-on-from-Gobert trade scenario becomes.