Stephen Litel brings up some arguable and important topics

[dunkonu21]

http://www.downtownjournal.com/index.ph ... 4&blog=406


This article is about the rotation and brings up two main points

1. Corey Brewer should be playing more and Kirk Snyder less.

2. Al Jefferson and Ryan Gomes are both playing out of position. They should instead be playing at their natural comfortable positions.

I think both of these topics have been discussed a little, but maybe we can expand them a little.

1. I disagree with Litel's first point, simply because Corey Brewer is not ready for the minutes that Snyder gets. Snyder started playing with MN on Feb 26th. Since then Corey Brewer is averaging 23 minutes per game and I would argue that is about his max for being able to handle without losing more confidence. I also don't agree with Litel saying Kirk is no more than a bench player, because personally I like the explosiveness he gives us and could be satisfied with him starting for this team for next year.

2. I totally agree with his second point. Al is clearly better at PF as most of us agree (cept rev?) and he should be playing where he is comfortable not where we "need" him due to roster inefficiencies. As we have said winning isn't the most important thing, development is and Al would grow more playing in the PF spot than in the C IMO. I also wanna see what Richard is made of, in spot minutes he is doing good work, lets put some pressure on him and give him 25 minutes a game see what he can really do.

[shrink]

I agree with dunkonu about giving minutes to Kirk Snyder, and I think Stephen fails to look at the longterm picture here for the Wolves franchise.

First, I think there is only so much Corey Brewer can learn in gametime situations, and if he makes great leaps, they'll come in practice, where he can get quick correction. This is no knock on Corey, and I've been excited by the glimpses of ability he's shown. However, how much is it going to help him to play 30 minutes rather than 23?

Second, and I think more importantly, is that the Wolves need to know right away if Kirk Snyder is part of our future, and whether to use up valuable cap space giving him a contract. MIN knows Brewer will be back for the next two years at least, but Snyder is a mystery. Wolves management has seen less of him than any of their other players, and his contract expires 12 games from now. He was a 16th pick, and he's played like he has some potential. Wolves management needs to decide whether he can be a valuable part of the team, and how much of a financial commitment they can make to him. And they need to decide that soon.

[deeney0]

I think 1 has to do with motivating Corey. I like some of the things Kirk brings, but I have a hard time believing he's got any kind of future here.

I agree with the sentiment of 2, but really, who's going to play C if not Al? Madsen? Doleac? Walker? Let the old guys rest on the bench. Richard? I know a lot of you love the guy, but he's a long term investment - while he's done some things well in the minutes he's been given, he's also done some things poorly - enough things that he's shown he's no where near ready for 30 minutes a game.

[C.lupus]

It's gonna be hard for Brewer to get more minutes playing as Gomes' backup (as Litel has the rotation) at SF. I agree that the out-of-position playing is a product of not having a viable option at center. Hopefully this will be adressed by next season. I don't think Richard is the answer.

[karch34]

I agree with dunkonu about giving minutes to Kirk Snyder, and I think Stephen fails to look at the longterm picture here for the Wolves franchise.

First, I think there is only so much Corey Brewer can learn in gametime situations, and if he makes great leaps, they'll come in practice, where he can get quick correction. This is no knock on Corey, and I've been excited by the glimpses of ability he's shown. However, how much is it going to help him to play 30 minutes rather than 23?

Second, and I think more importantly, is that the Wolves need to know right away if Kirk Snyder is part of our future, and whether to use up valuable cap space giving him a contract. MIN knows Brewer will be back for the next two years at least, but Snyder is a mystery. Wolves management has seen less of him than any of their other players, and his contract expires 12 games from now. He was a 16th pick, and he's played like he has some potential. Wolves management needs to decide whether he can be a valuable part of the team, and how much of a financial commitment they can make to him. And they need to decide that soon.

Great post. We need to figure out if Snyder is long term and that's probably why we have been force feeding him some minutes. That said I do think that Brewer should get more time to develop in game situations.

The biggest bone of contention with me is Jaric getting minutes vs. Snyder/Brewer.

I agree that Al and Gomes are out of position. While playing any of Richard, Madsen, Doleac at center probably doesn't give us a better chance of winning in the short term, it's still probably better results for those two.

[PeeDee]

I'd like to bring something up and there are a number of threads where it could fit. I'll choose here because it directly deals with Big Al playing center.

What i'd like t bring up is, the San Antonio Spurs.

I'm sure a lot of us would agree that Tim Duncan is one of the best PFs to ever play the game. However, if you look at the rest of the roster, who on San Antonio plays the center? Tim Duncan is the biggest player on the team, yet he's considered a PF.

This brings me to my next point, I think a lot of us get WAY to hung up on position titles. It can be argued that the Spurs have been running a multiple PF team ever since Robinson retired. They have no center... but they keep winning.

To me the PF and C positions are interchangeable. In fact, it's more about player skillsets than it is position titles. Right now, we have a player that is a beast on the low block, hes developing his jumpshot, and hes been getting better as passing out of double teams. To me, it's more of we need to give Al a big presence who compliments him best rather than focus on moving Al out of the 'center spot'. Who cares if people think hes playing center if we have players that compliment each other and keep teams honest?

[horaceworthy]

I think 1 has more to do with giving Snyder a legitimate audition than it does with motivating Brewer or Brewer not being ready. He may or may not have a long-term place here, but a decision needs to be made on him this summer, and it helps to have as much information as possible when making it. That isn't the situation with Brewer.

I disagree with 2. I don't really think in terms of positions with Al. He's our #1 option on offense, and he should be guarding the least threatening player at the 4/5 on the opposing team. We don't have any legitimate size to allow him that option on defense, so we're forced to play him with Gomes.

Gomes should be a 3, but his play took a better turn when he was moved to PF. It'll be interesting to see what happens with him this summer.

[MN Die Hard]

Second, and I think more importantly, is that the Wolves need to know right away if Kirk Snyder is part of our future, and whether to use up valuable cap space giving him a contract. MIN knows Brewer will be back for the next two years at least, but Snyder is a mystery. Wolves management has seen less of him than any of their other players, and his contract expires 12 games from now. He was a 16th pick, and he's played like he has some potential. Wolves management needs to decide whether he can be a valuable part of the team, and how much of a financial commitment they can make to him. And they need to decide that soon.

I agree 100% shrink. I dont want to put words in the author's mouth, but its almost like he's implying Snyder cant be a part of the Wolves' core (or he hasnt considered it as an option). Snyder is just 24 years old, right there with the rest of young MN core. We know Brewer will be here next year, but as you stated, we need to find out if Snyder is worth the investment (btw from what I've seen I believe the answer is yes, assuming we're not forced to overpay).

[B Calrissian]

I have been saying that Brewer should be taking some of Kirk's minutes and his starting spot for awhile.

I wouldn't mind seeing Richard and Madsen get around 24 minutes combined.

Foye34/Jaric14
Jaric10/McCants32/Brewer4
Brewer28/Gomes20
Gomes10/Jefferson10/Smith28
Jefferson24/Richard12/Madsen12

This lets Gomes play the bulk of his minutes at sf. As far as Jefferson playing center goes.. we don't have many option at the moment.
As you can tell I am a fan of Snyder. Even if Richard/Madsen get no minutes we will still need minutes for Telfair when he gets back. I don't see how Snyder fits in long term. Of the four (Gomes,Smith,Telfair, and Snyder) Kirk is the last one I hope is back. We have enough players that can play wing signed for a couple years (Foye,Jaric,McCants, and Brewer). So I would rather bring back one of the bigger guys (Smith or Gomes) and Telfair. But of course this all can change depending on who we draft.

I did not include Richard in the list of people we could resign because he will cost far less than those guys to bring back.

[funkatron101]

I agree with PeeDee and horaceworthy, AND we should take notice at Al's recent blocks in the last 5 games or so. Defensively he is becoming more sound.

[Stephen_Litel]

I agree with dunkonu about giving minutes to Kirk Snyder, and I think Stephen fails to look at the longterm picture here for the Wolves franchise.

First, I think there is only so much Corey Brewer can learn in gametime situations, and if he makes great leaps, they'll come in practice, where he can get quick correction. This is no knock on Corey, and I've been excited by the glimpses of ability he's shown. However, how much is it going to help him to play 30 minutes rather than 23?

Second, and I think more importantly, is that the Wolves need to know right away if Kirk Snyder is part of our future, and whether to use up valuable cap space giving him a contract. MIN knows Brewer will be back for the next two years at least, but Snyder is a mystery. Wolves management has seen less of him than any of their other players, and his contract expires 12 games from now. He was a 16th pick, and he's played like he has some potential. Wolves management needs to decide whether he can be a valuable part of the team, and how much of a financial commitment they can make to him. And they need to decide that soon.

Here I come to do my semi-regular lurking and find this conversation...

Shrink, this entire post above is fantastic. A great take that makes quite a bit of sense. Although the post at DTJ doesn't agree (as I wrote it during my normal frustration after a loss), you are correct here.

[shrink]

Great post. We need to figure out if Snyder is long term and that's probably why we have been force feeding him some minutes. That said I do think that Brewer should get more time to develop in game situations.

The biggest bone of contention with me is Jaric getting minutes vs. Snyder/Brewer.

First, thanks Stephen.

Second, I've wondered about Jaric as well karch. We know what Jaric can do. We know what he can't do. Why's he getting 30 minutes a night?

I think it's because he's useful. With Telfair gone, Jaric is the only back-up for Foye at PG, and Randy's more of a scoring PG anyway. You may feel Foye > Jaric, and McCants > Jaric, but on the floor, Jaric + either of them > Foye + McCants right now. Of all the players on the team, Jaric has the best chance of getting a young player the ball in a position where he can succeed, and if the goal of the last dozen games is to build confidence and show the young guys they can compete and even win in the NBA, Jaric, sadly, is our best chance for that.

I suppose it doesn't hurt either to boost his trade value. McHale's done a good job with the trades this year, and I suppose when he calls up other GM's he doesn't immediately get hung up on when his opening line is, "I wanted to see what you'll offer for one of our starters?"

[deeney0]

-= original quote snipped =-
but on the floor, Jaric + either of them > Foye + McCants right now.

I don't agree with that, and for what it's worth Foye+McCants have a better 2-man +/- than either Foye-Jaric or McCants-Jaric.

Jaric just doesn't seem to learn. The things he does well, he does well, but he makes the same mistakes over and over and over again. At least once a game, Jaric ruins the flow of the offense by taking an ill-advised early in the shot clock three, which inevitably turns into a fast break going the other way. With the Wolves lack of transition defense, chalk that up to a 4 point swing.

[karch34]

-= original quote snipped =-



First, thanks Stephen.

Second, I've wondered about Jaric as well karch. We know what Jaric can do. We know what he can't do. Why's he getting 30 minutes a night?

I think it's because he's useful. With Telfair gone, Jaric is the only back-up for Foye at PG, and Randy's more of a scoring PG anyway. You may feel Foye > Jaric, and McCants > Jaric, but on the floor, Jaric + either of them > Foye + McCants right now. Of all the players on the team, Jaric has the best chance of getting a young player the ball in a position where he can succeed, and if the goal of the last dozen games is to build confidence and show the young guys they can compete and even win in the NBA, Jaric, sadly, is our best chance for that.

I suppose it doesn't hurt either to boost his trade value. McHale's done a good job with the trades this year, and I suppose when he calls up other GM's he doesn't immediately get hung up on when his opening line is, "I wanted to see what you'll offer for one of our starters?"

I agree that he is useful as his skill set compliments the younger players as you mentioned. He probably is also a big part of helping with the confidence to close out the season.

However, the context of our discussion is who is or might be in the long term picture and the playing time they should receive. Jaric is probably going to be around for awhile, but he's not someone we're really looking at for long term the way we are Brewer, Snyder, Foye, McCants, etc. I just think if you're going to argue about the playing time of Snyder vs. Brewer and ignore that Jaric's taking a good chunk away from both, you're not looking at the whole issue.

That said I think another reason you're seeing Gomes at PF is to open the minutes for Snyder and Brewer while still having Jaric play significant minutes.

[shrink]

I don't agree with playing Jaric, but my theory of why Timberwolves management is doing it is to give the team a better chance to win.

At this point, I don't think Foye makes McCants better, and I don't think McCants makes Foye better. However, I would prefer they play more together now. I'm not a big fan of the "create a culture of winning" line, when we only have a dozen games left.

[mandurugo]

To me the PF and C positions are interchangeable. In fact, it's more about player skillsets than it is position titles. Right now, we have a player that is a beast on the low block, hes developing his jumpshot, and hes been getting better as passing out of double teams.

The reason I think that it is important to get a center next to Al is that he isn't a "beast" on the low block. He is a great player there on offense, but that is due to guile not brawn. He has been getting more blocks lately, a sign of a defensive commitment - but he is not an overpowering force on offense and defense. He's not particulary big/strong for a PF, when he plays center he is routinely overpowered on the defensive side. Comparing him to the PF Tim Duncan is the key. They might call Tim a PF but he has the size and strenght of a center, so he can play both positions interchangeably. Not true for Al.

[PeeDee]

He's not particulary big/strong for a PF, when he plays center he is routinely overpowered on the defensive side.

I'm not so sure. I looked over the last several games and it appears that the big men who have done the most damage to the Wolves have not done it by overpowering Al.

Most of them have scored the bulk of their FGs jumpshooting outside of the paint. I would say since Al is not a good perimeter defender, that is an area we should look to upgrade. Whether or not we can get this in a 'center' or somewhere else is the key to this conversation.

If Randolph appears to be everything people are saying about him, he might be a great long term solution.

I do agree though, that the Wolves need more size. The more stress we put on Al in this area, the more we risk injury and him getting frustrated.

[Dan's with the Wolves]

The wolves could definitely use two additional bigs with different skill set to complement Al

1. True center for when needed to match up with opposing low block scoring big men and provide defensive rebounding.

2. An athletic big to matchup up with opposing bigs that primarily play outside the paint and provide defensive rebounding.

Al is great at what he does (scoring and offensive rebounding). He is getting better defensively which is great.

Given the dearth of low post scorers and the number of faceup bigs in the NBA. I would prioritize getting an athletic big that can matchup well with other athletics bigs outside the paint and provide defensive rebounding.

[collin_k41]

^^#1. Hibbert in the 2nd. #2 Randolph

[PeeDee]

I don't think theres any way Hibbert falls to the second round. I do think that if he slips to the twenties, we have to take a stab at moving up to get him.