Players we shouldn't trade for under ANY circumstances

[Krapinsky]

I wanted to make a thread that would basically make things more efficient around here. The idea of this thread is to limit unrealistic, moot trade discussions. I'm tired of people tryng to drop they're overpaid players on the Wolves in the middle of our rebuilding process to jump start a rebuilding process of their own. Someday the wolves will be able to trade expirings contracts and maybe some picks for a useful player, but that time is not now. Hopefully, with someone's help this thread could be sticky'd and we could just point to it everytime someone tries to drop Eddy Curry on us.

Here is my list. Please feel free to discuss players to add/drop from each category, as well as better/more creative names for each category.

Again, I think these players should not be traded to us under any circumstances.

Category One: We tried it once, let's just leave it at that.
Mark Blount
Ricky Davis (S&T)
Stephon Marbury
Marcus Banks
Mike James

Category Two: Dude, we're rebuilding. It sounds good at first, but it's not what's best for the long run, so just leave it alone already.

Richard Jefferson
Vince Carter
Michael Redd
Baron Davis
Jason Richardson
Shaquille O'Neal
Lamar Odom
Peja Stoyakovic
Mike Bibby
Zach Randolph
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Erick Dampier
Kenyon Martin
Andrei Kirilenko
Boris Diaw
Troy Murphy
Brad Miller
Nene

Category Three: Minimum, you'd have to take Jaric and give us back a first, and we both know that's not happening.

Tim Thomas
Jared Jeffries
Jerome James
Quentin Richardson
Kenny Thomas
Jamal Tinsley
Dan Gadzuriz
Cuttino Mobley
Brian Cadinal
Matt Carroll
Luke Walton

Catgory Four: No way in hell and not even funny

Bobby Simmons
Larry Hughes
Ben Wallace
Eddy Curry

[deeney0]

Redd, Jefferson, and Richardson are all players that deserve consideration under the right circumstances. They're under 30 wing scorers. If that's still laking after the offseason (it sure is now), they could be targets for a Walker/Buckner/Miami 1st/Boston 1st type package.

[Klomp]

LOL half of those are Knicks.

[Krapinsky]

Redd, Jefferson, and Richardson are all players that deserve consideration under the right circumstances. They're under 30 wing scorers. If that's still laking after the offseason (it sure is now), they could be targets for a Walker/Buckner/Miami 1st/Boston 1st type package.

Let me tell you why I disagree:

Jason Richardson $11,111,110; $12,222,221; $13,333,332; $14,444,443

Richard Jefferson $12,200,000; $13,200,000; $14,200,000; $15,200,000

Michael Redd $14,520,000; $15,780,000; $17,040,000; $18,300,000

[b]Here are there per/40 numbers compared to McCants:

ppg r a fg% 3%
Jefferson 23.2 4.3 3.1 .464 .362
Redd 24.4 4.6 3.7 .444 .363
Rich'son 22.7 5.6 3.3 .445 .405
Mccants 22.1 4.1 3.2 .456 .411

*WE BASICALLY ALREADY HAVE AN EQUIVALENT PLAYER IN HIS ROOKIE CONTRACT. Defensively they all comparatively suck. McCants actually might be the better player since he is younger, has more upside, and shoots the 3 ball the best out of the four (something we desperately need).



If we trade for one of these guys this year it will have the following effects:

1. We basically wave goodbye to signing a quality free agent after next year, or the year after that.

2. We give up two #1 picks.

3. We improve our team just enough to not draft in the top ten but either (1) still don't make the playoffs, or (2) get swept in the first round of the playoffs.

4. The Clippers get the pick we owe them next year (10-16 range)

5. In two years the player will be on the downside of his prime and he'll only get worse. Meanwhile his salary will continue to go up to the point where he is overpaid by 5-6 million/yr, which is essentially adding the deadweight of another Jaric type contract on to the roster.


If we stay the course it will have the following effects:

1. We keep two #1 picks.

2. We have spare $ to sign a free agent of our choosing after either next year, or the year after.

3. We suck next year, thus the Clipper don't get our pick.

4. By the end of next year we have tons of assets and cap space which equals flexibility. Flexibility allows us to shape our roster and to later convert those assets into a player that is not overpaid and is willing to play defense.

[deeney0]

Shad is nowhere near equivalent. Not even close. Those players are paid that much because that's what a franchise scorer is worth. If Shad were that good (which he's not even close), he'd be getting that large a contract too.

[B Calrissian]

Shad is nowhere near equivalent. Not even close. Those players are paid that much because that's what a franchise scorer is worth. If Shad were that good (which he's not even close), he'd be getting that large a contract too.

I don't consider Jefferson a franchise scorer. Maybe McCants will stop the stupid fouls next year and earn some real minutes. He could average 20 points with ease if given the minutes. What does he need to do to prove to you that he is a franchise scorer? Considering you called Jefferson one he shouldn't be far off.

[Krapinsky]

That's my point. Those players aren't good. They put up numbers on bad teams and got paid for it. If Shad got 40 min/game he might be getting paid too.

The (+/-) PER for the SG position for Mil and Cha is -1. For the SF position for NJ its -.09. Coincidence? I think not. These players don't play defense so they can pad their offensive states. They are terribly overrated and are only good at scoring. They are far from franchise players and are definitely not worth trading draft picks for.

Did Charlotte get any better when it essentially added J. Richardson to a young and improving lineup? Nil. We wouldn't either.

[B Calrissian]

^Yeah I agree with you. I edited my previous post because I misread what deeney said.

[deeney0]

Those teams don't have the skeleton around them to support a franchise scorer. I'm not saying the Wolves do right now, either, but they could surprise us next year and show that's all they're lacking. Draft Rose, this team has tons of glue guys and no scoring threat. I wouldn't at all be opposed to trading for that kind of player in that situation.

[Krapinsky]

Care to justify why given the same minutes McCants numbers/percentages would drop dramatically and not be near Jeff/Rich/Redd?

Next year (or maybe the year after) assuming he gets the minutes I really think McCants will put up similar numbers whether he's on the Wolves or we trade him for a mid first rounder.

[deeney0]

Nothing was keeping Shad from earning those minutes this year, it's not as if anyone was playing in front of him. He simply can't handle 30 minutes a game because of his lack of D, turnovers, fouls, bad passing, etc. He's not going to be anything more than a scorer off the bench until he learns to do those things, and imo he hasn't made nearly enough progress in that respect over the length of the season.

[Krapinsky]

i don't want to turn this into another McCatns related thread, but are you coming around to the fact that we shouldn't trade for any of those player until at least the trade deadline next year- and only if at the time we're a fringe playoff team.

[deeney0]

That's always been my position - don't trade for a player like that right now, but reassess around the deadline. I could see situations where the Wolves would want to acquire them, unlike some of the other players on the list (Baron Davis, Kenyon Martin, Shaq, etc.) that there's really no scenario.

[MN Die Hard]

The idea of this thread is to limit unrealistic, moot trade discussions.

Every proposed trade on RealGM is moot, unless McHale and Ainge and Dumars and others are actually reading and posting here.

Category One: We tried it once, let's just leave it at that.
Mark Blount
Ricky Davis (S&T)
Stephon Marbury
Marcus Banks
Mike James

Category Two: Dude, we're rebuilding. It sounds good at first, but it's not what's best for the long run, so just leave it alone already.

Richard Jefferson
Vince Carter
Michael Redd
Baron Davis
Jason Richardson
Shaquille O'Neal
Lamar Odom
Peja Stoyakovic
Mike Bibby
Zach Randolph
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Erick Dampier
Kenyon Martin
Andrei Kirilenko
Boris Diaw
Troy Murphy
Brad Miller
Nene

Category Three: Minimum, you'd have to take Jaric and give us back a first, and we both know that's not happening.

Tim Thomas
Jared Jeffries
Jerome James
Quentin Richardson
Kenny Thomas
Jamal Tinsley
Dan Gadzuriz
Cuttino Mobley
Brian Cadinal
Matt Carroll
Luke Walton

Catgory Four: No way in hell and not even funny

Bobby Simmons
Larry Hughes
Ben Wallace
Eddy Curry

While I do agree that the Wolves likely wont trade for a large contract yet, I'm not certain I agree with how you categorize people. According to groups two and three, you think we're more likely to acquire guys like Jeffries, James, Thomas, Tinsley, or Cardinal than someone like Richard Jefferson or Michael Redd?

[MN Die Hard]

If we trade for one of these guys this year it will have the following effects:

1. We basically wave goodbye to signing a quality free agent after next year, or the year after that.

2. We give up two #1 picks.

3. We improve our team just enough to not draft in the top ten but either (1) still don't make the playoffs, or (2) get swept in the first round of the playoffs.

4. The Clippers get the pick we owe them next year (10-16 range)

5. In two years the player will be on the downside of his prime and he'll only get worse. Meanwhile his salary will continue to go up to the point where he is overpaid by 5-6 million/yr, which is essentially adding the deadweight of another Jaric type contract on to the roster.


If we stay the course it will have the following effects:

1. We keep two #1 picks.

2. We have spare $ to sign a free agent of our choosing after either next year, or the year after.

3. We suck next year, thus the Clipper don't get our pick.

4. By the end of next year we have tons of assets and cap space which equals flexibility. Flexibility allows us to shape our roster and to later convert those assets into a player that is not overpaid and is willing to play defense.

I think we all agree that the Wolves wont trade expirings for big contracts this year. However, keep in mind that the cap space you keep referencing might be fools gold. Having cap space doesnt guarantee we'll get a prized free agent as MN is not a coveted destination. We might have no other choice but to trade for a guy rather than hope to sign one.

Also, I'm not sure where you're coming up with two #1 picks - how would acquiring Redd or Jefferson, etc, cost us two #1 picks?

[shrink]

I think we all agree that the Wolves wont trade expirings for big contracts this year. However, keep in mind that the cap space you keep referencing might be fools gold. Having cap space doesnt guarantee we'll get a prized free agent as MN is not a coveted destination. We might have no other choice but to trade for a guy rather than hope to sign one.

I would have been shocked if we traded Ratliff last season for a longer contract, because the 2008 salary would have been unsupportable under the lux without closing the door on guys like Gomes, Smith, Telfair, or finding a sweet free agent deal.

However, this year I think its unlikely but possible that we might trade the expirings for a big contract that extends into 2009 and beyond. Let's say we spend up to the lux this season bringing back guys/free agents, and the deals run 2 years or more. With $23 mil coming off the books, we could support a max deal and still stay under the lux. I think it would have to be a good fit though to make that kind of commitment. I'd also point out a trade may be a strategic move, since several teams are also targetting summer of 2009 for free agency, so the bidding may be more competitive if we do not trade early.

[Krapinsky]

-= original quote snipped =-
I think we all agree that the Wolves wont trade expirings for big contracts this year. However, keep in mind that the cap space you keep referencing might be fools gold. Having cap space doesnt guarantee we'll get a prized free agent as MN is not a coveted destination. We might have no other choice but to trade for a guy rather than hope to sign one.

Also, I'm not sure where you're coming up with two #1 picks - how would acquiring Redd or Jefferson, etc, cost us two #1 picks?

Ah, the pessimism of a MN fan. I disagree. Because of the salary cap only a few teams have cap space to sign prize free agents. Most players looking for their first big contract aren't going to take less money to play somewhere else.

The twp # 1 picks are in reference to the trade proposed by Deeney (expiring + Boston/Miami picks) which is probably realisitically what it would cost to get one of those overrated, overpriced stars.

-= original quote snipped =-

While I do agree that the Wolves likely wont trade for a large contract yet, I'm not certain I agree with how you categorize people. According to groups two and three, you think we're more likely to acquire guys like Jeffries, James, Thomas, Tinsley, or Cardinal than someone like Richard Jefferson or Michael Redd?

No. See the title of the thread. We're not likely to acquire any of these players under ANY circumstances. The titles just explains why we won't trade for those players.

-= original quote snipped =-

Every proposed trade on RealGM is moot, unless McHale and Ainge and Dumars and others are actually reading and posting here.

The idea here is that moot means- waste of time to being up such a trade proposal because every Wolves poster will and should shut down the trade idea.

[MN Die Hard]

Ah, the pessimism of a MN fan. I disagree. Because of the salary cap only a few teams have cap space to sign prize free agents. Most players looking for their first big contract aren't going to take less money to play somewhere else.

I'm not saying anyone will take significantly less money to play somewhere else, but if there are similar offers on the table, the fact is MN remains one of the least-desirable free agent locations. Sure if we can blow other offers out of the water we probably win out, but just keep in mind that a ton of cap space doesnt guarantee you anything. As shrink points out a lot of teams are working to get under the cap, just like we are.

The twp # 1 picks are in reference to the trade proposed by Deeney (expiring + Boston/Miami picks) which is probably realisitically what it would cost to get one of those overrated, overpriced stars.

My bad, I missed that part.

No. See the title of the thread. We're not likely to acquire any of these players under ANY circumstances. The titles just explains why we won't trade for those players.

My bad, I guess I misunderstood your categories. I thought some were "no way we take that guy" and some were "maaaaaaybe we take that guy".

The idea here is that moot means- waste of time to being up such a trade proposal because every Wolves poster will and should shut down the trade idea.

I think you're jumping to a big conclusion here. I dont think you can say unequivocally that every Wolves fan agrees that its a bad idea to trade for a big contract under any circumstances. Most of the guys on your list, I agree with. But given the right deal, I dont think anything is impossible. Look at the Gasol deal....you just never know when you'll see an offer too good to pass up.

[C.lupus]

I think Dr. K's list is pretty good (with MN Die Hard's caveat that you never say never). I would add Jermaine O'neal to this list (category 2?).

[the_bruce]

He simply can't handle 30 minutes a game because of his lack of D, turnovers, fouls, bad passing, etc.

With respect to turnovers. McCants has a decent ast to To ratio for a guy who creates his own shot. I wouldn't say his passing is bad either. He makes some ill-advised passes but lots of players make ill-advised passes/mistakes at his age.


I woudln't say his D is bad either. I was never enamored by his defense in his 1st season, but at the end of the year Casey praised his defense. I would also argue that most elite scorers are poor defenders simply because they attempt to avoid foul trouble and allow players to get by. Shad doesnt seem to want to allow this. If he gets beat he is likely to simply grab the player he's defending. He's also likely to get frustrated and insta foul his man on the wing. He doesnt contest in transition in the air, but will grab at the man in front of him after hes beat. His long ass arms get him into trouble too.