Wittman versus McHale

[cpfsf]

You only get to pick one

I'll start I don't blame Wittman nearly as much as I do McHale. McHale makes the choices and he has done enough damage. He's worse than Isiah Thomas because he's managed to keep his position still and is still holding the franchise back. I think a good portion of Wolves fans will agree that Wittman could have had more wins if McHale wasn't making these types of decisions. In the future, we could have had...

Chalmers/Telfair
Mayo/Foye/McCants
Brewer/Gomes/Carney
Jefferson/Smith
Pekovic*/Booth

This roster can play defense (and offense too)
Team would play their natural positions
We would be younger
Match up better to Portland and other teams
OJ Mayo is number 1 (leads all rookies with 21 PPG) on the rookie rankings and Chalmers is 7 (leads all rookies in steals and averages 5.1 APG). Kevin Love is 10th. Of course rookie rankings shouldn't be considered absolute fact, it still it gives an idea of how most rookies are doing.

Currently we have this to look forward to (including Pekovic)
Telfair/Foye/Ollie
Miller/McCants
Brewer/Gomes/Carney
Love/Smith
Jefferson/Pekovic*

Lineup doesn't trust each other
cant play defense
1-6 team
players out of position

[C.lupus]

Wittman. McHale certainly deserves some blame (he hired Wittman afterall) but a good coach would have this team hovering around the .500 mark right now.

I think McHale and Co. have done a good job this year (the second year of rebuilding) getting rid of bad contracts and bad attitudes and I think Love is a keeper. The Chalmers deal was stupid - I'll give you that - but Chalmers doesn't make this team significantly better this year.

Here's what our lineup would look like without the Mayo trade:

Telfair/Jaric/Chalmers
Mayo/Foye/McCants/Buckner
Brewer/Gomes/Carney/Walker
Smith/Gomes
Jefferson/Madsen/Booth

This team would still be way undersized and would get killed defensively
How are Mayo, Foye, and McCants supposed to play the same position?
I would argue that Love is, and will be, a way better player than Chalmers. It is easier for Chalmers to play next to Wade. Mayo and chalmers are also playing more minutes than Love (another Wittman strike).
There is no reason to think this lineup would trust each other anymore than our current lineup. a good coach should be able to get the team to play together.

Bottom line - there is enough talent on this team to win games. They have played most of their games close this year. They are losing because Wittman can't figure out a rotation, can't get his players to listen to him, can't adjust to matchups, and can't call a smart play at the end of the game.

[deeney0]

Right now, Witt. Reduce McHale's role, but I don't see how firing him now solves anything.

[Worm Guts]

I would argue that Love is, and will be, a way better player than Chalmers.

I'm sort of confused why you're comparing Love and Chalmers. We could have had both.

[C.lupus]

I would argue that Love is, and will be, a way better player than Chalmers.

I'm sort of confused why you're comparing Love and Chalmers. We could have had both.

Yeah, I realize that. I was responding to the OP where he was saying Chalmers was ranked 7 and Love 10. I took that as him insinuating that Chalmers was better. Maybe that was wrong on my part.

[Worm Guts]

I would argue that Love is, and will be, a way better player than Chalmers.

I'm sort of confused why you're comparing Love and Chalmers. We could have had both.

Yeah, I realize that. I was responding to the OP where he was saying Chalmers was ranked 7 and Love 10. I took that as him insinuating that Chalmers was better. Maybe that was wrong on my part.

I missed that. I get it now.

[karch34]

Good poll. I went with Wittman. He can't get the players to play defense, hasn't defined roles, and hasn't gotten anything productive out of the young talent. I'm not saying any of the youngsters are anything special, but we still don't really know what their ceiling is.

I'm willing to give McHale a little benefit of the doubt (I know, I know) but it's year two of a rebuilding process that probably can't be judged until year 3. It's not like we don't have more talent on paper than the teams we've been getting beat by.

I'm not going to judge Love vs. Mayo yet, but it appears the same as it did on draft day that we traded a position of need for the one position we're actually good at. Trading Chalmers for nothing is a little bit of a head scratcher, but at the same time I don't think he's anything more than a career backup.

[shrink]

I don't blame McHale for trading away the second round pick for two future seconds and cash.

From what I've read, MIN agreed to trade MIA the 34th pick before MEM had come back with the Jaric deal. If we expected to re-sign Telfair, then Jaric could earn a little of his money back as the third PG. We had no idea that Chalmers would be available, and even if we had, we're talking second round picks here, that generally are shots in the dark. Last draft there were some high risk, high return prospects, which I generally approve of for 2nd round picks, but that doesn't mean they still aren't 2nd rounders with very little expected value.

Now, maybe if the MEM trade was in the books, and we still had the pick when #34 rolled around, and Mario Chalmers was still on the board at that time, maybe he wouldn't do a 1-for-2 + cash deal. Unfortunately, that isn't what happened, and complaining because you have future knowledge that was unavailable at the time if the trade seems unfair.

[shrink]

Two other thoughts:

I'd go so far as to say McHale has done a decent job over the last one year +, getting rid of many older players with questionable attitudes, and adding youth, four protected 1sts, and cap space.

Also, can you imagine the results of any poll like this in the past, where one of two choices was "Fire McHale?" People like to scapegoat, and it looks like McHale has lost his position as Scapegoat #1 for the Wolves poor start.

[cpfsf]

Wittman. McHale certainly deserves some blame (he hired Wittman afterall) but a good coach would have this team hovering around the .500 mark right now.

I think McHale and Co. have done a good job this year (the second year of rebuilding) getting rid of bad contracts and bad attitudes and I think Love is a keeper. The Chalmers deal was stupid - I'll give you that - but Chalmers doesn't make this team significantly better this year.

Here's what our lineup would look like without the Mayo trade:

Telfair/Jaric/Chalmers
Mayo/Foye/McCants/Buckner
Brewer/Gomes/Carney/Walker
Smith/Gomes
Jefferson/Madsen/Booth

This team would still be way undersized and would get killed defensively
How are Mayo, Foye, and McCants supposed to play the same position?
I would argue that Love is, and will be, a way better player than Chalmers. It is easier for Chalmers to play next to Wade. Mayo and chalmers are also playing more minutes than Love (another Wittman strike).
There is no reason to think this lineup would trust each other anymore than our current lineup. a good coach should be able to get the team to play together.

Bottom line - there is enough talent on this team to win games. They have played most of their games close this year. They are losing because Wittman can't figure out a rotation, can't get his players to listen to him, can't adjust to matchups, and can't call a smart play at the end of the game.

I disagree 100% that McHale has done a good job this year. The Carney trade was really a no brainer, but I can’t bash him for that because at least he did it. We see eye to eye on the Chalmers trade, so no real reason to argue about his impact. The main topic though is the Mayo – Love trade. I was disappointed about it when we made the draft day trades, and I still feel the same way now.

Next I would have had Foye, Chalmers, Telfair, and Mayo battle for the starting guard spots. Mayo and Foye can play both guard positions so that would have offered some versatility. When I placed Foye and McCants together at the SG position, I just didn’t want to write Mayo PG, Mayo SG, Foye PG, Foye SG, Jaric PG, Jaric SG. The players can play more than one position; I just didn’t want to write that all out.

Mayo is good on defense, Chalmers is good on defense, Brewer is good on defense. That is good defense right there. Next I would never start Smith, I would rather start Gomes (occasionally Booth, but it would depend on the other team), and we would have a very fast team that happens to play defense. The lineup would only get better as we would be able to add Pekovic as another big.

Sorry I didn’t clarify earlier about the Chalmers/Love comment (since we would have Chalmers either way).

[jack612]

I think that they should be pitted against each other in a battle to the death and the winner should be fired. I don't see that option in the poll though, so I'm voting Wittman.

[digitaldropoff]

Both

[Zeitgeister]

I would prefer to have them both gone, but if I had to choose I would say Mchale. I would think that a new GM (and hopefully a better one) would consider finding Wittman's replacement soon after taking the GM job.

As far as the second round pick argument, I think it was a mistake to trade that pick away in general. There were plenty of low risk/high reward guys in the second round that we could have picked, it didn't have to be Chalmers, how about DeAndre Jordan? I know, he dropped to the second round, and he was most likely very unimpressive for whatever reason but the fact remains the guy is 7 feet tall, long, and athletic. You just don't find those kind of guys deep in the draft, and if he turned into even a Tyson Chandler type of player, we succeeded through and through.

I would love a lineup like this eventually:

DeAndre Jordan
Al Jefferson
Corey Brewer
OJ Mayo
Randy Foye

Chances are it would take some time, and DeAndre Jordan may not be very valuable for a couple years even but, i'm just saying.

[C.lupus]

I disagree 100% that McHale has done a good job this year. The Carney trade was really a no brainer, but I can’t bash him for that because at least he did it. We see eye to eye on the Chalmers trade, so no real reason to argue about his impact. The main topic though is the Mayo – Love trade. I was disappointed about it when we made the draft day trades, and I still feel the same way now.

Next I would have had Foye, Chalmers, Telfair, and Mayo battle for the starting guard spots. Mayo and Foye can play both guard positions so that would have offered some versatility. When I placed Foye and McCants together at the SG position, I just didn’t want to write Mayo PG, Mayo SG, Foye PG, Foye SG, Jaric PG, Jaric SG. The players can play more than one position; I just didn’t want to write that all out.

Mayo is good on defense, Chalmers is good on defense, Brewer is good on defense. That is good defense right there. Next I would never start Smith, I would rather start Gomes (occasionally Booth, but it would depend on the other team), and we would have a very fast team that happens to play defense. The lineup would only get better as we would be able to add Pekovic as another big.

Sorry I didn’t clarify earlier about the Chalmers/Love comment (since we would have Chalmers either way).

I really wanted Mayo in the draft, too. I thought that he and Foye would make a dynamic backcourt (I still do - under the right system). The thing is, I don't think Mayo would be nearly as good in Minny's system (if you can even call it that). I just have no faith that Wittman would use him properly. He'd probably be playing Mayo 20 mpg and yanking him every time he made a mistake. I could see Wittman rolling with a lineup of Telfair-Chalmers-Mayo-Brewer-Jefferson. Sure, there are three guys who can play defense but they are playing out of position and are undersized. I think what you have in mind would work well, I just don't think Wittman would do it.

Wittman's Bobby Knight-style of coaching just doesn't work at the NBA level. He needs to be coaching college. I think most, if not all, of our players are capable of playing better defense. They just need a coach who will get them to do it. They need someone who will inspire them and motivate them, not berate them.

[Effigy]

I can't believe so many of you are defending McHale. You're saying stuff like 'well this year he wasn't that bad' Uh, what? THIS year? Hasn't he been your GM for 13 years? What's the last trade he decisively won? Seriously. Decisively? I'm trying here to think of one, I am.

The coach is responsible for what he gets out of his players, but the GM is responsible for the players. Your players could be better than they are right now. I don't think you can argue that. With a young team like you have, the coach doesn't matter at all. Atlanta was THIS close to firing Mike Woodsen a few years ago. Now he looks like a good coach in Atlanta. We had Nate McMillan as our coach the year we lost 61 games. Our first year with Nate was actually our lowest point. But it's not Nate's fault that we took Telfair over Jefferson, or Webster and Jack over Paul. We made poor choices. And we dumped that GM and hired a guy from San Antonio's system. That's what you should do. FIre McHale and go after a Spurs assistant, or maybe even Kevin Pritchard's right hand man in Portland, whoever that is. The OKC Thunder did that with Sam Presti and he seems very promising.

Understand that I'm not defending Randy Whitman, I'm not calling him this great coach. I'm saying he doesn't matter. Right now you need better management, and the coach is just a warm body. Get your personell in order then fix the coach if that position still needs it.

[Zeitgeister]

I can't believe so many of you are defending McHale. You're saying stuff like 'well this year he wasn't that bad' Uh, what? THIS year? Hasn't he been your GM for 13 years? What's the last trade he decisively won? Seriously. Decisively? I'm trying here to think of one, I am.

The coach is responsible for what he gets out of his players, but the GM is responsible for the players. Your players could be better than they are right now. I don't think you can argue that. With a young team like you have, the coach doesn't matter at all. Atlanta was THIS close to firing Mike Woodsen a few years ago. Now he looks like a good coach in Atlanta. We had Nate McMillan as our coach the year we lost 61 games. Our first year with Nate was actually our lowest point. But it's not Nate's fault that we took Telfair over Jefferson, or Webster and Jack over Paul. We made poor choices. And we dumped that GM and hired a guy from San Antonio's system. That's what you should do. FIre McHale and go after a Spurs assistant, or maybe even Kevin Pritchard's right hand man in Portland, whoever that is. The OKC Thunder did that with Sam Presti and he seems very promising.

I agree, and as Timberwolves fan I want Mchale gone. The only thing that we can really point to as a positive for Mchale in recent memory is the fact that he didn't sign roleplayers to ridiculous contracts. The guy has done too much wrong to make it right. He needs to go, the Twolves need to start over from the top, bring in someone knowledgeable and experienced to be the GM, and let him do the rest.

[shrink]

I can't believe so many of you are defending McHale. You're saying stuff like 'well this year he wasn't that bad' Uh, what? THIS year? Hasn't he been your GM for 13 years? What's the last trade he decisively won? Seriously. Decisively? I'm trying here to think of one, I am.

The last trade he decisively won was the last trade he did.

$2.5 mil Cap space for UTAH protected 1st + Booth (vet min exp) + Carney (exp)

The trade before that was Mayo + Jaric for Kevin Love + Mike Miller, which most national experts say he won.

He got rid of Mike James and Trenton Hassell for shorter deals (those would both be wins, considering how little playing time they are given now)

Gerald Green wouldn't have been brought back -- he got a 2nd and a TPE for that.

I think everyone says that he won the MIA deal: Mark Blount (3 yr) + Ricky Davis for Antoine Walker (2 yr) + Doleac (exp) + MIA protected 1st.


In the last 18 months, no GM has done more to give his team an instant rebuild. With KG traded, he cleaned house, getting rid of older vets with some attitude problems, like Blount, Mike James, Ricky Davis, Trenton Hassell, Marko Jaric, Walker, Buckner and bought out Howard and Hudson. In their place we added loads of youth, 4 more firsts, and bazillions in cap space. MIN now has at least a chance at a future -- before they had none. If you want to bash McHale for other trades, you have to give him credit for what he's done recently.

[Zeitgeister]

I can't believe so many of you are defending McHale. You're saying stuff like 'well this year he wasn't that bad' Uh, what? THIS year? Hasn't he been your GM for 13 years? What's the last trade he decisively won? Seriously. Decisively? I'm trying here to think of one, I am.

The last trade he decisively won was the last trade he did.

$2.5 mil Cap space for UTAH protected 1st + Booth (vet min exp) + Carney (exp)

The trade before that was Mayo + Jaric for Kevin Love + Mike Miller, which most national experts say he won.

He got rid of Mike James and Trenton Hassell for shorter deals (those would both be wins, considering how little playing time they are given now)

Gerald Green wouldn't have been brought back -- he got a 2nd and a TPE for that.

I think everyone says that he won the MIA deal: Mark Blount (3 yr) + Ricky Davis for Antoine Walker (2 yr) + Doleac (exp) + MIA protected 1st.


In the last 18 months, no GM has done more to give his team an instant rebuild. With KG traded, he cleaned house, getting rid of older vets with some attitude problems, like Blount, Mike James, Ricky Davis, Trenton Hassell, Marko Jaric, Walker, Buckner and bought out Howard and Hudson. In their place we added loads of youth, 4 more firsts, and bazillions in cap space. MIN now has at least a chance at a future -- before they had none. If you want to bash McHale for other trades, you have to give him credit for what he's done recently.

I have to wonder how much involvement Mchale had in most of those deals. I mean, he doesn't have as much authority in GM decisions as he used to since bringing in a few other guys, not to mention that when he did have full control for many years he often made MANY mistakes.

Do you think Mchale should remain the GM of the Minnesota Timberwolves?

[cpfsf]

The last trade he decisively won was the last trade he did.

$2.5 mil Cap space for UTAH protected 1st + Booth (vet min exp) + Carney (exp)

The trade before that was Mayo + Jaric for Kevin Love + Mike Miller, which most national experts say he won.

He got rid of Mike James and Trenton Hassell for shorter deals (those would both be wins, considering how little playing time they are given now)

Gerald Green wouldn't have been brought back -- he got a 2nd and a TPE for that.

I think everyone says that he won the MIA deal: Mark Blount (3 yr) + Ricky Davis for Antoine Walker (2 yr) + Doleac (exp) + MIA protected 1st.

In the last 18 months, no GM has done more to give his team an instant rebuild. With KG traded, he cleaned house, getting rid of older vets with some attitude problems, like Blount, Mike James, Ricky Davis, Trenton Hassell, Marko Jaric, Walker, Buckner and bought out Howard and Hudson. In their place we added loads of youth, 4 more firsts, and bazillions in cap space. MIN now has at least a chance at a future -- before they had none. If you want to bash McHale for other trades, you have to give him credit for what he's done recently.

I don't always trust experts, and I believe those who think the Mayo-Love trade helped us is wrong.

You said no GM has done more help us rebuild, we are still 1-7 with a team who can't play defense. McHale knew this ahead of time. The team who traded us Love and Miller has a better record than us and Mario Chalmers helped the Heat to having the 7th best record in the West. Don't get me started with Portland. All McHale did was put a band-aid on a problem he caused, we are still a mediocre team.

Chalmers - Blake
Mayo - Roy
Brewer - Batum
Pekovic - Aldridge
Jefferson - Oden

I see this roster and it just makes sense (heck, there are several possibilities with this roster). Now we have a roster who can score plenty of points, problem is every team can score more on us. I can't really bash McHale for making the Blount/Davis trade, but what did McHale have to lose. Same with the 76ers trade. The trades that involve actual risk, McHale messes up every time. I hope he doesn't mess it up this years pick either.

[shrink]

I have to wonder how much involvement Mchale had in most of those deals. I mean, he doesn't have as much authority in GM decisions as he used to since bringing in a few other guys, not to mention that when he did have full control for many years he often made MANY mistakes.

Do you think Mchale should remain the GM of the Minnesota Timberwolves?

I suppose its a question, but if you are going to count his mistakes against him, and credit his successes to other people, then I don't think its worth my time trying to engage in a fair discussion.

Incidentally, in my opinion, McHale's best trade came almost ten years ago, when after Marbury said he wanted out, he was still able to get an ex-All Star PG replacement AND a lottery pick.

McHale hasn't been flawless, but he's been better than many GM's, and I think he sincerely wants to improve the Wolves. I think he should remain GM, but we need to see progress from his rebuild within the next two years. However, they are building for 2010, so that might be a more appropriate yardstick.