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I sort of combined the WAS to get under the lux and MIL to resign cv\sesions and ditch RJ\Redd ideas. Used Wolves to absorb all of the salary! You will hate it.

MN IN: Redd, RJ, MIL Pick
MN OUT: Miller, cards, Foye, Smith, Madsen, Bassy

MIL IN: Cards, Foye, Smith, Bassy, Thomas, Songolia, Critt, MIL pick
MIL Out: Ridnour, Redd, RJ

WAS IN: Stack, Ridnour, S Williams
WAS OUT: Thomas, Songalia, ???

DAL IN: Miller,
DAL OUT: Stack, Williams

DAL is on board with stack for Miller.

Bucks save: 6.4 (minus etan trade kicker 1.5m?) ~5m? Should be enough to resign CV & sessions. Get out of RJ & Redd's extra year. Get a young replacement guard in foye. Modest front court depth additions with Thomas, Songalia, & smith. Another young guard in critt. Bassy is just as bad as Ridnour. Buyout cardinal and madsen and I think they are at 15 players.

WAS will save money via stack buyout. I'm to lazy to figure out exactly how much they will
save with the lux added in but 6-10m. They probably need to add more, but not sure what atm. One of the old trade threads I remember involved the WAS pick(5+) for the saved $$$ and a utah pick swap to avoid the extra salary/lux next year. I'm to lazy to search for the threads at the moment. Maybe a pick swap with MIL if WAS ends up 3-5, and MIL is 8-10?

My fellow MN Fans will hate it. It blows out all capspace for the next 2 years. +33.5m in 2010/11, +4-6m next year? But even with capspace at best they end up with players on Redd\RJ\Miller level at less money ~10m/yr in the less expensive nba. I've also left no PG! They'd need to resign brown or Ollie to a small contract or maybe go after Anthony Carter type pg. They should still have the Full MLE available while still being under the lux. So maybe they could lure a vet pg(a.miller or bibby). Who knows. It's Glen Taylors money not mine?

MN would have a formidable lineup 1-5. If RJ can find something resembling motivation and Redd
returns to form after surgery. solid 3 man big rotation of Al\Love\Thabeet. Gomes can play some
4 too. They'd probably need to retain Ollie and Brown, and hope their
draft picks can contribute out of the gate.

Al\Thabeet(mn pick)
Love\Al
RJ\Gomes\Mia pick
Redd\Brewer\Bos pick
MLE??\Carter??\Evans(mil pick)

or I like this one more maybe...

Al\Mullens(MIA)
Love
RJ\Budinger(mil)
Redd\Brewer\BOS pick
MLE\Evans(MN)

The Bucks have the most overpaid set of wings in the nba. Why would the Wolves want them?
Mark me down as hating it.

Add me as a hater, too.

We'd be the second Milwaukee. Stuck in our own faults for years. No chance to contend, likely 8th seed in the west if we reach the playoffs at all and no chance to built a team that is able to compete for the ring.

Yep. Hate it. Sorry.

I like it from our end. We're not really losing anyone productive from this season? MM....has been no where to be found this year, Foye...streaky at best. Cardinal and Madsen are what they are. The only one I wouldn't want to lose is Telly....but he could easily be replaced by a Lawson or Collison in a blink of an eye. Basically the two overpaid guys from the Bucks outproduce the five we have going out. I do hate RJ just in general...but Redd when healthy would be a beautiful outside compliment to AJ. We'd still have a nice core of AJ, Love, and Brewer....a ton a draft picks, and a couple of borderline All Star wings....actually, wasn't Redd an allstar once already?

digitaldropoff wrote:I like it from our end. We're not really losing anyone productive from this season? MM....has been no where to be found this year, Foye...streaky at best. Cardinal and Madsen are what they are. The only one I wouldn't want to lose is Telly....but he could easily be replaced by a Lawson or Collison in a blink of an eye. Basically the two overpaid guys from the Bucks outproduce the five we have going out. I do hate RJ just in general...but Redd when healthy would be a beautiful outside compliment to AJ. We'd still have a nice core of AJ, Love, and Brewer....a ton a draft picks, and a couple of borderline All Star wings....actually, wasn't Redd an allstar once already?

You forgot the green font.

I think the notion that this lineup won't contend in the west for more than 8th seed is false. I'd urge you to look at the games in november\december. Games when the wolves had a lead late in the 4th quarter and fell apart. There were probably a dozen games in nov/dec the wolves could have won, but they simply fell apart.

I'm not sure how a lineup of

Al
Love
RJ
Redd
xxx

wouldn't be able to compete DEN, HOU, PHX, POR, NOH, DAL? The Spurs are frail. LA is only 1 Kobe injury away from being very beatable by this lineup. The east is the same way.

RJ & Redd are far better and more reliable than what we had this season. They are probably better than any FA MN would get in 2010, and even if they get a player of RJ/REDD level as a FA. They will have to overpay 20%. So a 10m FA becomes a 12m FA, locked into a long term contract. Just cut to the chase pick up a draft pick that may become something a few years down the road when REDD/RJ are off the books.

I think it's a decent trade; a team that hasn't had a forty win season since 04-05 can't really be picky about its talent. That's always what flabbergasts me about people on this site who say they "hate" trades. It's almost impossible for someone to suggest a trade that would make the team worse. It's not like we have anything to lose.

Yea, I hate that pretty bad.

Hate it, but mainly due to MN overpaying in my estimation. I understand the idea of bringing in some overpriced talent to the team, I think it is a year to early, but I understand it. The problem is, for basically getting teams out of jams we pay too much and don't get near enough back in terms of value, that is why I hate it personally.

We will have to bring in a player or two for more than they're worth to actually be a contender, but I wouldn't do this trade. I actually think RJ and Redd would fit great on our team, but we'd have nothing at PG. So we'd be built to win for the next year or two (assuming a healthy Redd and RJ), but we'd have inexperience at the most key position. That's like having a football team that's ready to win now and having someone like Travaris Jackson at QB.

Plus, I think this would be a short term fix that would allow us to be competitive for a couple years, but not quite the move we need to make in getting some established veterans that doesn't hurt long term.

Kudos for an interesting trade. I like how the other three teams all have very large needs, so other teams like us can maximize our assets.

If MIN wanted to use its 2010 cap space this way, I don't think you'd need to include Foye. MIL will not go over the lux, so right now, they are trying to decide which of these three they have to give up .. Sessions, Villanueva, or their pick .. and they may have to give up two of them.

WAS, the other team who's pretty desperate for cap space, would probably throw in their lottery pick (assuming its not Top 2), if they could get Stackhouse. Of course, I'd love Stackhouse's $5 mil TPE here too, so we could offer mroe than the TPE this summer, so I'd do the DAL part pretty easily, even if we couldn't trade him to another team.

It was such a fun trade, I couldn't help playing with it, trying to maximize each team's return.

DAL IN: Miller ($9.9 - exp)
DAL OUT: Stackhouse ($7.25 - exp) + Shawne Williams ($2.4 - exp)

WHY THEY DON'T SAY NO: This is the safest "yes," since DAL fans have proposed this trade. They like Miller over Redd because while both contribute on the court, Miller's expiring could coincide with many of their big contracts.

MIL IN $30.85 mil: Gomes ($4.0) + Cardinal (6.75 mil) + Madsen ($2.8) + Etan ($8.5 TK) + Mike James ($6.5) + Craig Smith ($2.3) + UTA prot 1st
MIL OUT $37.7 mil: Redd ($17 - 2 yr) + RJ ($14.2 -2 yr) + Ridnour ($6.5) + #10 pick

WHY THEY DON'T SAY NO: MIL moves it talented, but over-priced contracts for ALL expirings in a big rebuild. This cuts almost $7 mil in raw cap space from their 2009 salaries, allowing them to re-sign both Villanueva and Sessions, the two most important re-signs on their team, and it doesn't touch Bogut, or Alexander, or Mbah a Moute. It gets them out of the middle, and it also fixes 2010-11, unlike some of their other plans.

WAS IN: Stackhouse $7.25 + Redd ($17 - 2 yr)
WAS OUT: #3 + Etan ($7.4) + Mike James ($6.5) + Stevenson ($3.9 - 2 yr) + Songalia (4.5 - 2 yr)

WHY THEY DON'T SAY NO: WAS wants to compete next year, but Abe Pollin has to be questioning if he got his money's worth whthis season, when he signed Jamison and faced the 2009 lux tax. This move improves the team by upgrading Stevenson to Redd, clears deadwood, and with Stackhouse's instant $5 mil TPE, slides them under the lux as well. Earlier trades had them trading the pick just to move a contract .. this one moves all their contracts and gives them a serious upgrade as well.

MIN OUT $25.75: Miller ($9.9) + Cardinal ($6.75) + Gomes ($4.0) + Madsen ($2.8) + Craig Smith ($2.3) + UTA prot 1st
MIN IN $31.5 mil: RJ ($14.2 2-yr) + Stevenson ($3.9 - 2 yr) + Songalia (4.5 2 yr) + Shawne Williams (2.4) + Ridnour (6.5) + WAS PICK (3?) + MIL PICK (10?)

WHY THEY DON'T SAY NO: Fearing the competitive 2010 market, MIN converts salary into lottery picks. Richard Jefferson will help stableize the team, and he's not ancient, just over-priced. The two-year deals of RJ + Stevenson + Songalia kill our 2010 cap space, but they are gone in 2011. Shawne's worth a look as an expiring, and they take on Ridnour's expiring as someone that could help. The basis for the trade is to acquire those lottery picks, and with their other picks, they should have enough trade value to get Rubio and Thabeet.

I don't hate it.

shrink wrote:25.75 MIN OUT: Miller ($9.9) + Cardinal ($6.75) + Gomes ($4.0) + Madsen ($2.8) + Craig Smith ($2.3) + WAS PICK (3?) + MIL PICK (10?)
31.5 MIN IN: RJ ($14.2 2-yr) + Stevenson ($3.9 - 2 yr) + Songalia (4.5 2 yr) + Shawne Williams (2.4) + Ridnour (6.5)

WHY THEY DON'T SAY NO: Fearing the competitive 2010 market, MIN converts salary into lottery picks. Richard Jefferson will help stableize the team, and he's not ancient, just over-priced. The two-year deals of RJ + Stevenson + Songalia kill our 2010 cap space, but they are gone in 2011. Shawne's worth a look as an expiring, and they take on Ridnour's expiring as someone that could help. The basis for the trade is to acquire those lottery picks, and with their other picks, they should have enough trade value to get Rubio and Thabeet.

It should have the WAS and MIL pick on the in. I like the idea for giving us more than enough picks to trade up. The only downside is if we don't we're trading 5 for 5 and then would have 5 lottery picks. There would have to be some serious dealing by the front office in some way to make room and that could lead to some very bad moves.

karch34 wrote:

shrink wrote:25.75 MIN OUT: Miller ($9.9) + Cardinal ($6.75) + Gomes ($4.0) + Madsen ($2.8) + Craig Smith ($2.3) + WAS PICK (3?) + MIL PICK (10?)
31.5 MIN IN: RJ ($14.2 2-yr) + Stevenson ($3.9 - 2 yr) + Songalia (4.5 2 yr) + Shawne Williams (2.4) + Ridnour (6.5)

WHY THEY DON'T SAY NO: Fearing the competitive 2010 market, MIN converts salary into lottery picks. Richard Jefferson will help stableize the team, and he's not ancient, just over-priced. The two-year deals of RJ + Stevenson + Songalia kill our 2010 cap space, but they are gone in 2011. Shawne's worth a look as an expiring, and they take on Ridnour's expiring as someone that could help. The basis for the trade is to acquire those lottery picks, and with their other picks, they should have enough trade value to get Rubio and Thabeet.

It should have the WAS and MIL pick on the in. I like the idea for giving us more than enough picks to trade up. The only downside is if we don't we're trading 5 for 5 and then would have 5 lottery picks. There would have to be some serious dealing by the front office in some way to make room and that could lead to some very bad moves.

Thanks for the correction -- I'll go fix that.

I agree with you on having too many picks - that could be a problem. Hopefully, unlike the later picks, its easier to make headway in a trade when you're swapping something close in value .. it may be considered maneuvering. For example, the ESPN Mock Lottery that Chad Ford has us wanting Thabeet as early as the third pick, but sometimes he's passed on by so many teams that we get him at #7. Using similar picks to jockey around in the lottery for players that may be a better fit for another team may make these type of deals possible.

And of course, we can always look at trading some of our later picks for future picks. I just hope we don't end up selling any.

Lastly, I'm thinking now that maybe we should be tossing in the UTA pick, hoping its deferred. I think right now if it was guaranteed for the future, you could get MIL to trade their #10 pick for it, + BOS pick, right now. Anyway, if the UTA pick is defered so that it carries no guaranteed 2009 salary, it could be a nice chip to add to either WAS or MIL. I'll toss it on the MIL side.

Bruceallen was wise to use some of the neediest teams in the league, where the savings may be doubled because of the lux.

Thanks for the comments.

shrink wrote:Kudos for an interesting trade. I like how the other three teams all have very large needs, so other teams like us can maximize our assets.

If MIN wanted to use its 2010 cap space this way, I don't think you'd need to include Foye. MIL will not go over the lux, so right now, they are trying to decide which of these three they have to give up .. Sessions, Villanueva, or their pick .. and they may have to give up two of them.

WAS, the other team who's pretty desperate for cap space, would probably throw in their lottery pick (assuming its not Top 2), if they could get Stackhouse. Of course, I'd love Stackhouse's $5 mil TPE here too, so we could offer mroe than the TPE this summer, so I'd do the DAL part pretty easily, even if we couldn't trade him to another team.

ty. Part of the reason I include Foye is because he will need to be extended in 2010 anyway.

As for the WAS part. It would be solid if WAS would bite. Could certainly save them some cash and with this draft some bleh I think some owners may consider such moves to save 10m+ cash!

bruceallen61 wrote: I think the notion that this lineup won't contend in the west for more than 8th seed is false. I'd urge you to look at the games in november\december. Games when the wolves had a lead late in the 4th quarter and fell apart. There were probably a dozen games in nov/dec the wolves could have won, but they simply fell apart.

How does trading for RJ and Redd help the Wolves 4th quarter problems? Redd is known for vanishing in the 4th.

bruceallen61 wrote:RJ & Redd are far better and more reliable than what we had this season. They are probably better than any FA MN would get in 2010, and even if they get a player of RJ/REDD level as a FA. They will have to overpay 20%. So a 10m FA becomes a 12m FA, locked into a long term contract. Just cut to the chase pick up a draft pick that may become something a few years down the road when REDD/RJ are off the books.

Regardless of how much the Wolves have to overpay to get a FA to come here it is smarter than paying RJ/Redd $31,240,000 next year and $33,500,000 in 10/11. Even if the Wolves decline to pick up the last year for both of them (TO, right?) they are still left with a Al/Love, some role players, and some prospects to attract free agents. It wouldn't be worth all the roster shuffling just swap Foye for the Bucks 1st.

B Calrissian wrote:How does trading for RJ and Redd help the Wolves 4th quarter problems? Redd is known for vanishing in the 4th.

Regardless of how much the Wolves have to overpay to get a FA to come here it is smarter than paying RJ/Redd $31,240,000 next year and $33,500,000 in 10/11. Even if the Wolves decline to pick up the last year for both of them (TO, right?) they are still left with a Al/Love, some role players, and some prospects to attract free agents. It wouldn't be worth all the roster shuffling just swap Foye for the Bucks 1st.

1) Vet presence? Better defense? Better Offense? You can't actually think a lineup containing Redd + RJ would be a 4th quarter liability compared to combinations of Gomes + Miller + Foye + Bassy + McCants? I mean be real here. It's better players by a mile. I also think gomes is solid. I'm in love with Miller as "point forward", and think Foye will end up being a amazing if he can be consistent.

2) Both are PO's. I think RJ is 50/50. Doubt Redd would opt, but if he blows up in MN I could see him opting and heading to NYK.

Uh next year it's 5m more, but I'm not gonna run the numbers. Do the wolves pay more. Sure. Do they win more and play better basketball? Hell yes.

The following year. If you include the wolves making some common moves.
1) Resign\extend foye, let's say he makes 3m more that year. Roughly ~7 total, and gets locked into a 5 year deal? Could be more or less.

2) Pickup 2 2nd tier FA's at the Redd\RJ\Miller level. 8-11m/yr. We will call it 10m each.. Also probably locked into longer deals or overpriced deals! Nice we just got shackled to 2.Maggette and 2.Lewis!!

So ~23m with Foye + Free Agents. So 10m more in 2010\11 sound reasonable!

So I guess what I'm saying is over 2 years. This deal costs the wolves +15m over the moves that they probably might make with their draft picks and or capspace. So 7.5m a year for a very solid lineup of...

Al
Love
RJ
Redd
(anybody!)

Brewer\Mil pick\MN pick\MIA pick\BOS pick\UTAH pick

Plus doesn't lock MN into any additional long term deals. Also don't forget those contracts of Redd and RJ could be very valuable that year as well. S&T for a player is far more common than a FA leaving their team. It's far more likely a good player will be shopped during the year and MN will have contracts to get max FA's.

RJ might still play defense (overrated part of his game) but Redd hasn't and will not play defense. That line up isn't all that solid. If the Bucks had been injury free this year they would have been maybe the 7-8th seed in the East. Love and Jefferson are better than CV and Bogut, but is the difference enough for the Wolves to make the playoffs in the West? I think not.
You are overrating both RJ and Redd.