"Overload" at PF

[ChazzleDazzle]

I've been hearing this more and more, about how we have a glut of PF's and a desperate need for a real Center. I know this started with the drafting of Kevin Love, but I really think we need to let it go at this point. Until either Love or Jefferson gets traded, they do not play the same position. They're both starters, so one is a 5 and one the 4. They're both in the 6-10, 260 range, which is more than acceptable for a center. (And I don't think it's a given that Al is substantially better off at the 4 than the 5--I looked for efficiency numbers breaking it out by position, but couldn't find anything. If anyone's got that kind of data, I'd love to look at it...)

I definitely hear the argument that both have trouble defending some of the bigger (or more athletic) Centers in the league (read: Dwight Howard, Shaq, Yao...), but honestly, most players can't guard those guys one on one (look at how 7'3" Ilgauskas and the athletic 6'11" Varejao matched up against Howard...)

The bigger issue, to me, is that neither is an explosive athlete, or a big-time shot blocker. But whomever we get to fill that role is going to be a bench guy anyway, as Love and Jefferson are going to be our starters long term (again, unless one is traded).


Right now, when everyone is healthy, I'd have to assume the minutes at 4/5 break out something like this:

4 - Love(30)/Smith(16)/Songaila(4)
5 - Jefferson(34)/Thomas(12)/Madsen

Based on that, if we can deal some of the spare parts for that bench defender, great, but overall, I think we have to come to terms with the fact that Al Jefferson is our starting Center.

[Dan's with the Wolves]

I would much prefer the acquisition of a player good enough to push Love to the bench. Why would their strategy be to get a lesser player?

[big3_8_19_21]

I don't think anyone has an issue with Love and Jefferson on the same team (not anymore anyway), I think the issue is a lack of a paint-defending shot-blocking intimidator, as you did mention (though Jefferson did average a very solid 1.7 blocks per game this season, it's still pretty clear we need more shot blocking). I think the PF glut is an issue because 7 of our 14 guaranteed contracts are primarily power forwards:
1. Kevin Love
2. Al Jefferson
3. Craig Smith
4. Mark Madsen
5. Oleksiy Pecherov
6. Brian Cardinal
7. Darius Songaila
Yes, some of them can play other positions (such as Jefferson at the 5, which he manages to do), but this is also assuming no small ball with Gomes at the 4.

Half our team is power forwards, that definitely has to raise some eyebrows.

I think the general consensus is that we would all like to add a long, defensive shot blocker to have in a 3 man rotation with Al and Love. For example, I think it's understood that Pekovic is purely a center, and would allow Jefferson to move to the 4, but he also doesn't bring the defensive intimidation necessary, and thus isn't a particularly good fit for us.

[4ho5ive]

My problem isnt Love/Jefferson. My problem is Gomes/Smith/Songalia/Thomas/Pecherov. That is the overload issue to me. And i somewhat agree with Dan, why settle for trying to acquire a lesser player if we can get a guy that could start over Love. Either way, we need a 3rd defensive guy, regardless of who is starting. Its very likely all 3 receive starters minutes anyway.

EDIT: Big3 pretty much nailed it.

[ChazzleDazzle]

My problem isnt Love/Jefferson. My problem is Gomes/Smith/Songalia/Thomas/Pecherov. That is the overload issue to me. And i somewhat agree with Dan, why settle for trying to acquire a lesser player if we can get a guy that could start over Love. Either way, we need a 3rd defensive guy, regardless of who is starting. Its very likely all 3 receive starters minutes anyway.

Definitely agree on the backup situation. I think both Gomes and Cardinal have to be considered at the 3, which is reasonable if not ideal.

Cardinal, Madsen and Songaila will get almost no PT (which absolutely means that if we can get a player that complements what we've got for them, we should do it).

Pecherov is a potential buyout candidate.

Thomas will have to be a 5 (if he's healthy).

I guess my point is that I think those who are on the crusade to get Al back to being a full time 4 need to reconsider...


Also, I don't think Love is a bench player--otherwise I'd be on board with getting a player to start over him. And looking around the league, there aren't that many players that fit the category of 4/5, athletic, defensive, should start ahead of Kevin Love, available for trade, are there?

[LuDux1]

4 minutes for Songaila? Songaila behind Mark Madsen, Oleksiy Pecherov and Brian Cardinal?

Fun fact about Songaila: he learned about trade 5 days after it happened because he was hunting bears with bow somewhere in the wilderness

[shrink]

Fun fact about Songaila: he learned about trade 5 days after it happened because he was hunting bears with bow somewhere in the wilderness

Sounds like he will enjoy Minnesota. Maybe show up on Hrbek's show?

Etan is a PF/C too.

[younggunsmn]

as far as the talent level of our bigs goes:
1. jefferson
2. love
3. songaila
4. thomas
5. smith
6. pecherov
7. cardinal
8. madsen

this year it's going to be pretty ugly on the defensive end of things. hopefully thomas can stay healthy and throw his weight around for 15 mins or so.
Until we can add a guy like deandre jordan to be that 3rd rotational big to play 25 mins or so, we are going to be awful as far as interior defense. Ideally love and jefferson would only be on the floor together for no more than 20 mins or so.

Of those 8 guys only jefferson, love, and songaila should be around next year, with smith a small possibility. Songaila could contribute 15 mins on a contender, but his strength is not defense.

If roster space is a concern pecherov or madsen can be cut, but I have a feeling Kahn will look to keep all his expirings around until the trade deadline.

[GopherIt!]

I'm not that impressed with Songalia. I heard Maddog hunts tigers with rocks and sticks.

[revprodeji]

You have it all wrong.

We have 2 pf/c and we have 5 expiring contracts and a Songaila. Those players have value not as actual players, but as expirings.

In reality we only have 3 players (Love, Al, Flynn), 3 or 4 maybe players (Gomes, Brewer, Ellington, Bassy), 2 awesome euro prospects, (Pekovic, Rubio) and 6 expirings.

[john2jer]

You have it all wrong.

We have 2 pf/c and we have 5 expiring contracts and a Songaila. Those players have value not as actual players, but as expirings.

In reality we only have 3 players (Love, Al, Flynn), 3 or 4 maybe players (Gomes, Brewer, Ellington, Bassy), 2 awesome euro prospects, (Pekovic, Rubio) and 6 expirings.

Bingo.

As far as this season, Thomas, Smith, and Songalia will provide "decent" back-up minutes. Preferably we can move some expirings around that allow us to take advantage of the 125% rule, save some money for another team, and in the process bring some "decent" expiring guard in to take minutes in the backcourt with Ellington, Flynn, and Brewer.

[ChazzleDazzle]

Couldn't have said it better, Rev.

But weigh in, if you would, on the need for a true C. Long term, do you see Love/Jefferson as the starters, or do you feel that we need someone for the 5 with either Love or Jefferson moving to the bench, or a new team.

You too, J2J. I know you have an opinion...

[the_bruce]

The wolves don't need a true center. They need an athletic modern PF. Or a 3/4. Who primarily plays the 3 but also plays some minutes at the 4 with al & love.

[Dan's with the Wolves]

The wolves don't need a true center. They need an athletic modern PF. Or a 3/4. Who primarily plays the 3 but also plays some minutes at the 4 with al & love.

So who would you rather have Lamar Odom or Andrew Bynum/Gasol?

Beasley or B. Lopez?

Clark or Griffin?

Lewis or Howard?

Marion or Bosh?

[Krapinsky]

There just are not any true centers worth trading for right now ---- they are all overpaid, bad, or untouchable. As for right now, we should milk Etan this year and hope to find a big man in the draft next year, i.e. Aldrich, or Alabi, or through trade after it's more clear how well the Love/Jefferson experiment works out. If It workouts somewhat well, we'll only want to invest in a center that plays 20 minutes a game. If it proves to be a burden, we may have to move Love or Jefferson down the road for a full time starting center. For this year we shouldn't be too concerned -- let it breathe.

[sabonis11]

Call me crazy, but I don't think that there are many defensive centers that would be available for any of the power forwards that have been mentioned outside of Love and Al. I think that when healthy, Etan Thomas could fill the role of a defensive minded big man that isn't afraid to mix things up in the paint.

In terms of our overload of PFs, I would like to see Kahn target a younger swingman that can spread the floor (no need to be a star, that move could come next offseason or at the trade deadline taking on somebody's star so they can clear space for 2010).

Here are some names of players who may be on the move or undervalued by their clubs:

JJ Redick - showed some promise in the playoffs and through the season, has shown ability to spread the floor and is underrated defensively (he's not great by any means, but many fans just write him off). His contract also expires after the season, which would mean it wouldn't be too risky of an investment

Bobby Simmons- Shot 45% from behind the arc last year and is a large expiring contract as well, but isn't very young

Marco Belinelli- Has a small contract that carries into 2011, but could be a great player to spread the floor and should be available after they drafted curry.

Adam Morrison- Pretty good sized expiring contract and could use a situation like MN to try to prove that he belongs in the league. He can make shots and would benefit from the lack of competition at the 2/3 spots for the wolves.

I think these are much more reasonable targets for Kahn to balance out the roster, and 3 of the 4 expire at the end of the season, which means that there wouldn't be too much risk involved.

[AQuintus]

The wolves don't need a true center. They need an athletic modern PF. Or a 3/4. Who primarily plays the 3 but also plays some minutes at the 4 with al & love.

I agree with this. I think that the best fits next to Jefferson on both sides of the ball would be a big, athletic, shot blocker with the lateral quickness to guard perimeter PF's. Kevin Garnett, Josh Smith, Anthony Randolph, or Derrick Favors would all work very well.

[Test of Wills]

None of them are really true centers if you ask me.

Alll undersized skilled PF's.

[revprodeji]

Couldn't have said it better, Rev.

But weigh in, if you would, on the need for a true C. Long term, do you see Love/Jefferson as the starters, or do you feel that we need someone for the 5 with either Love or Jefferson moving to the bench, or a new team.

You too, J2J. I know you have an opinion...

pekovic has the talent to be a legit starting 4/5 but i doubt he comes over here to be a backup. i wish but i doubt it. i would love to have him as the 25min or so reserve and add an athletic 4/5 for clean up minutes. i think the true center id dying and with yao being injuried there are simply not many left. plus i believe al has the length to play 5. our concern needs to be to add a legit active 6'9 sf. maybe our luck will be up and brewer turns into that? doubt it but i can be hopeful

[RD&KG2]

If we got Morrison, I would literally vomit, and if we some how got Morrison and Redick, I w
ill without a doubt have a seizure and lose control of all bodily functions.