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I see lots of deals where jefferson is being under valued. I think we are seeing "recovery from injury" and think, thats what he is now and forever.

His two seasons prior to this one he averaged 23 pts and 11 reb and 21 pts and 11 rebounds. He shoots about 50%. His production on a per minute played level has been about the same since his rookie season.

In other words is you account for minutes played and shot attempts, his production has been at this level for 5 years. In about the 10 games before Jefferson was injured, Jefferson averaged about 27 pts and 13 rebounds.

Jefferson can make others around him better on the offensive end. How? When healthy he attracts double and triple teams, we just need guys who hit the open 3 pointers.

We have NEVER had good CONSISTENT 3 point shooters around Jefferson. If we are to going to trade Jefferson, at least wait until he is healthy again so we get full value in return. Good big men are hard to find.

jefferson's defense also showed substantial improvement last year (see below)

Jefferson is still only 24 years old. If we give up on him too soon, he will make us regret it.

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Note:

Jefferson showed a lot of improvement on defense last year.
To use a popular stat from this site:

In 2007-2008 his adjusted plus minus 13.66

In 2008-2009 his adjusted plus plus 5.04

Thats an 19 point improvement on what was still a bad team.

I agree it would be a huge mistake to move Jefferson right now. I would move him eventually however, because I don't think Jefferson and Love will work on defense, I think it makes a lot more sense to move forward with Love for a lot of reasons.

Tekkenlaw wrote:I agree it would be a huge mistake to move Jefferson right now. I would move him eventually however, because I don't think Jefferson and Love will work on defense, I think it makes a lot more sense to move forward with Love for a lot of reasons.

I agree with this. Jefferson's a great low post scorer but is not a well rounded player. He's just not a good defensive player despite the strides he made last year, is not a great athlete, is not a good passer (i.e. is a black hole) and just is not tall enough to guard opposing "true" centers or effectively guard the rim. But now is not the time to move him, his value is pretty much at an alltime low. If he gets back to pre-injury form and we can aquire a true starting center, maybe this can be revisted at the end of the year.

A lot of people are underrating Big Al right now. He does three things poorly and people think he is garbage. They forget about all the things he can do well.

Calinks wrote:A lot of people are underrating Big Al right now. He does three things poorly and people think he is garbage. They forget about all the things he can do well.

It might be because those three things (defense, passing, and drawing fouls) are very, very important. In fact one of them (defense) is 50% of the game.

With that said, I agree that now is not the time to move Jefferson, and in fact, I'd probably trade Love for a true Center before I moved Al for one. The things that Jefferson does at an elite level are much more rare.

I'm more worried about how he will fit into Rambis's system, since Kahn has basically assured us that Ramis & Co. are the "glue" of the team.

His defense isn't great but its so so. Drawing fouls... I don't really think that will be a huge issue once the team gains more respect. Passing is the big one and I doubt he will ever be a good passer but the coaches have said they agree going to drill that into him this season. I think he will be ok in that regard as well.

There aren't a lot of complete players out there like Tim Duncan or KG. Al isn't those guys but it doesn't mean he is some player that we should just toss off absent mindlessly. Don't forget that when healthy he is probably the best low post scorer in the NBA and a rare player in his own right.

Calinks wrote:A lot of people are underrating Big Al right now. He does three things poorly and people think he is garbage. They forget about all the things he can do well.

No one thinks Big Al is garbage, it's pretty widely accepted that when healthy he's a top 3 low post scorer in the league. But it makes sense to go with Love for a lot of reasons; he's a prototypical triangle power forward, is younger, can put up stats without the ball in his hands, is an elite rebounder, has more range on his jumpshot, solid passer, has a high b-ball iq, and most importantly, is nearly 10 million dollars cheaper without sacrificing anywhere near 10 million dollars in actual production.

Plus the return in value in a Jefferson trade would be much higher, at least if he's healthy.

No.

You mean other than first time posters?

Dr.Krapinsky wrote:You mean other than first time posters?

That's what I was thinking. Wolves21 and Feeltheluv have less than 20 posts between them, and most of them are about trading Jefferson. I somehow doubt he is suggesting that my CP3 trade was undervaluing him.

Jefferson is a good player. I never said that he wasn't. The fact is that he will be traded. If not this year next year for sure. For those of you that do not see that are blind. The one definite thing that we have learned from watching the Wolves this year is that Rambis is a system coach. He is not going to adapt to the strengths of his best player who is Jefferson. Kahn and Rambis have a vision and Al does not fit into their long term plans. Count on it! He needs to get healthy and increase production, which he will do. Once he does he will quietly get shopped. Because of his age, skillset, and contract there will be takers. When looking at this team one to two years down the road or looking at potential free agents this summer do not plan on Big Al being here long term. It will not happen. Trust me when I tell you this

Jefferson showed a lot of improvement on defense last year.
To use a popular stat from this site:

In 2007-2008 his adjusted plus minus 13.66

In 2008-2009 his adjusted plus plus 5.04

Thats an 19 point improvement on what was still a bad team

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He was also better at Center than PF

In 2008-9 Jefferson:

'Offensive PER at Center: 26.3
Defensive PER at Center: 19.2

His PER value at center: plus 7.1

It was lower at PF

Offensive PER at PF: 17.9
Defensive PER at PF: 13.5

His PER value at PF: plus 4.5

Jefferson was better than Love at PF and Center...

comparing Jefferson and Love:

He was also better at Center than PF

In 2008-9 Jefferson:

'Offensive PER at Center: 26.3
Defensive PER at Center: 19.2

His PER value at center: plus 7.1

It was lower at PF

Offensive PER at PF: 17.9
Defensive PER at PF: 13.5

His PER value at PF: plus 4.5

888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

Love in 2008-9:

Offensive PER at Center: 22.6
Defensive PER at Center: 19.5

His PER value at center: plus 3.0

It was lower at PF

Offensive PER at PF: 17.6
Defensive PER at PF: 19.1

His PER value at PF: minus 1.6

Jefferson adjusted plus minus in 2008-9: 5.04

Love adjusted plus minus in 2008-9: minus 7.63

This next applies to the previous 3 postings....

By the way, to be clear, I really like Love. But lets make informed decisions. I think Love makes big improvements this year and I believe jefferson would have improved even more on defense, if not injured.

That's my stance. love is good but we don't even know how good he will be. He may could wind up being just a great role player. A solid starter but nobody who excels at anything besides rebounding I don't feel comfortable making him our franchise big just yet.

Jefferson was by far our best player last season. I think too many people are willing to "throw away" the best low post scorer in the NBA and a guy who made major improvements in his defense last season, because he might not fit, Rambis offensive philosophy.

Jefferson was better than Love at PF and Center...

comparing Jefferson and Love:

He was also better at Center than PF

In 2008-9 Jefferson:

'Offensive PER at Center: 26.3
Defensive PER at Center: 19.2

His PER value at center: plus 7.1

It was lower at PF

Offensive PER at PF: 17.9
Defensive PER at PF: 13.5

His PER value at PF: plus 4.5

888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

Love in 2008-9:

Offensive PER at Center: 22.6
Defensive PER at Center: 19.5

His PER value at center: plus 3.0

It was lower at PF

Offensive PER at PF: 17.6
Defensive PER at PF: 19.1

His PER value at PF: minus 1.6

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Jefferson adjusted plus minus in 2008-9: 5.04

Love adjusted plus minus in 2008-9: minus 7.63

This next applies to the previous 3 postings....

By the way, to be clear, I really like Love. But lets make informed decisions. I think Love makes big improvements this year and I believe jefferson would have improved even more on defense, if not injured.

Wolves2011 wrote: a guy who made major improvements in his defense last season,

That must of happened while I wasn't watching. It certainly wasn't obvious in his play, anyway.

deeney0 wrote:

Wolves2011 wrote: a guy who made major improvements in his defense last season,

That must of happened while I wasn't watching. It certainly wasn't obvious in his play, anyway.

look at his adjusted plus minus or offensive PER vs Defensive.

I'm not saying he's a great defender. But he is a great offensive player (when healthy)

I personally don't care if I win 90 to 80 or 110 to 100. I just want to win.

Your looking for the center who holds the other team to 80. But you don't have to do that to win.