Flynn vs Foye

[NewWolvesOrder]

So how much of an upgrade was Flynn over Foye?
For me Flynn wasn't much of an upgrade in terms of point guard play, poor defense at this position is still there. I know Flynn can still grow as a point guard, but I also know his body will not grow any more inches and he will always a midget pg. So where do you stand on Flynn?

[dunkonu21]

It isn't fair to compare a rookie to a veteran. But Flynn has the point guard skills we need and Foye doesn't. Flynn also does not have attitude problems that I'm fairly certain Foye had with this team.

[NewWolvesOrder]

It isn't fair to compare a rookie to a veteran. But Flynn has the point guard skills we need and Foye doesn't. Flynn also does not have attitude problems that I'm fairly certain Foye had with this team.

How do you know that Flynn doesn't have 'tude problems and Foye did?

[mandurugo]

Foye proved that he wasn't a good value for a top 6 pick (edit: I guess he was actually pick 7). Flynn still has time to prove himself.

[horaceworthy]

I'll take Flynn 10 times out of 10. Dynamite athleticism and much better finisher than Foye. His rookie season has been comparable to Foye's but Flynn is 3 years younger than Foye was as a rookie. Plus, many of Flynn's problems look coachable (too many off-balance shots, heat checks, turnovers, over-dribbling, impatience).

[Calinks]

Flynn is 20 years old. 20 years old!

Flynn is trying to acclimate himself to a completely new system, the triangle is not his game. It's like working solely with equations all your life and then suddenly being switched to working in accounting, they are both numbers but totally different, you need time to adjust. Scoring and assist wise Flynn has put up comparable numbers to Foye last year, he isn't the scorer Foye was but he potentially can be much better with his ability to drive. Kid needs time.

[deeney0]

Statistically?

Jonny came into the league at age 20, Randy at age 23. Randy averaged 10.1 ppg, 2.8 apg, 1.85 to, and 0.6 spg in 22.9 min shooting 43.4% from the field, 36.8% from 3, and 85.4% from the line. Jonny is averaging 13.9 ppg, 4.0 apg, 2.8 to, and 1.2 spg in 29.5 min shooting 41.2% from the field, 33.6% from three, and 81.1% from the line.

Randy never improved enough - that was his hit. Those are good rookie numbers. Will Jonny improve? Only time will tell, but I think so. I think Jonny has a better attitude in that regard. But Jonny's rookie numbers are better than Foye's, and it's clear where Jonny has to work - shooting efficiency, taking care of the basketball, and defense.

[Foye]

Flynn by a mile although I used to like Foye.

[deeney0]

I was going to make another thread for this, but here is as good a place as any.

The idea that great PG pass first all the time is a myth.

36 players are averaging more AP48 than Jonny. Of those, 5 of them are not PGs (Hedo, Iggy, Manu, Wade, LeBron). Of the other 31, the players you'd say you'd want Jonny to be like - Nash, Rondo, Paul, Williams, Parker- all score a hell of a lot too (18.7, 14.0 19.6, 19.4, 16.5 respectively). Meanwhile, the guys ahead of him on that list that you wouldn't want Jonny to emulate - Felton, Watson, Jack, Lowry, Teflair, Ridnour - are the ones who manage high assist totals but no points (12.6, 7.3, 10.1, 8.4, 4.4, 11.4 respectively). To be a great PG in this league (unless your name is Jason Kidd), you have to score, too.

Jonny averages 13.9 ppg. Ramon averages 7.5 ppg.

[C.lupus]

Two good posts, deeney. I would just add that it is much easier for a player like Rondo to get more assists playing next to Allen, Pierce, and Garnett than it is for Flynn playing next to Brewer, Wilkins, and Pavlovic.

[dunkonu21]

How do you know that Flynn doesn't have 'tude problems and Foye did?

Speculation based on how he acted and how he used to interact with his teammates on the court. I think his attitude was softened to the fans due to McCants' crazyness.

[Narf]

I was going to make another thread for this, but here is as good a place as any,

The idea that great PG pass first all the time is a myth.

36 players are averaging more AP48 than Jonny. Of those, 5 of them are not PGs (Hedo, Iggy, Manu, Wade, LeBron). Of the other 31, the players you'd say you'd want Jonny to be like - Nash, Rondo, Paul, Williams, Parker- all score a hell of a lot too (18.7, 14.0 19.6, 19.4, 16.5 respectively). Meanwhile, the guys ahead of him on that list that you wouldn't want Jonny to emulate - Felton, Watson, Jack, Lowry, Teflair, Ridnour - are the ones who manage high assist totals but no points (12.6, 7.3, 10.1, 8.4, 4.4, 11.4 respectively). To be a great PG in this league (unless your name is Jason Kidd), you have to score, too.

Jonny averages 13.9 ppg. Ramon averages 7.5 ppg.

Great points, but it needs a disclaimer. Brevin Knight was a pretty good PG for a few years and didn't score either, and it's not really a requirement to score a lot if you have other scorers on your team. If we add a legit scoring wing (Joe Johnson? Wade?), a 3rd scoring big (Pekovic), and draft an outside shooter (Xavier Henry? Paul George?) then how much does our PG actually need to score? This is also why I like Rubio more for our team than Flynn, although I would love to have Flynn off the bench.

[deeney0]

Brevin Knight was never a good PG and never led his team anywhere. In his 15 year career he made the playoffs once as a starter, his rookie season in Cleveland, and they were knocked out in the first round. When you take a PG that high in the draft you have to hope he turns into something better than Brevin Knight or the pick was wasted.

Jonny doesn't set up his teammates enough, yet. But he's made great passes. He's proven he can, which is something Foye never really did. Jonny just needs to make the leap from being able to doing it on a regular basis, and that will take a couple years.

I don't understand statements like "I like Rubio better than Flynn for this team." This team? This team right now is Kevin Love, Jonny Flynn, whatever Rubio is eventually traded for and whatever Jefferson is eventually traded for. "This team." Are you really planning around third tier talent like Corey Brewer and Ryan Gomes and Ramon Sessions?

I'm a bit stupefied by those who are patient enough to wait for Rubio but not patient enough to see Flynn develop.

[shangrila]

I guess it's just that Flynn has been below expectations while Rubio has gone above expectations. I can't speak for everyone but I didn't think Rubio would be shooting as well as he has been, for instance. On the other hand I did expect Flynn to average a little more assists and I didn't expect as many 2-9 and 5-14 games that he's had.

[big3_8_19_21]

so...29 and 9 from Flynn. Talk about tearing down that rookie wall. F'ing A.

[deeney0]

Rubio has no gone above expectations. Rubio hasn't played one second in the NBA. That disqualifies him from fulfilling, exceeding, meeting, or doing anything else with expectations except falling completely flat.

Jonny Flynn is having one of the 10 best rookie PG seasons of the last decade. If it weren't for the fact that two (arguably three) others are also happening this season, that'd be getting more buzz. If your expectations were higher than that, that's your own fault.

(My 10 best rookie PGs of the last 10 years would be Gilbert Arenas, Tony Parker, Kirk Hinrich, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Raymond Felton, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Jonny Flynn, and Brandon Jennings, counting Evans and Mayo as SGs.)

Ricky Rubio is no more a member of the Minnesota Timberwolves than Latrell Sprewell. The Wolves own both their rights, and they're both (arguably) All-Star talents, but the chances of either of them appearing in a Wolves uniform in the future are remote.

[Krapinsky]

Rubio has no gone above expectations. Rubio hasn't played one second in the NBA. That disqualifies him from fulfilling, exceeding, meeting, or doing anything else with expectations except falling completely flat.

Jonny Flynn is having one of the 10 best rookie PG seasons of the last decade. If it weren't for the fact that two (arguably three) others are also happening this season, that'd be getting more buzz. If your expectations were higher than that, that's your own fault.

(My 10 best rookie PGs of the last 10 years would be Gilbert Arenas, Tony Parker, Kirk Hinrich, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Raymond Felton, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Jonny Flynn, and Brandon Jennings, counting Evans and Mayo as SGs.)

Ricky Rubio is no more a member of the Minnesota Timberwolves than Latrell Sprewell. The Wolves own both their rights, and they're both (arguably) All-Star talents, but the chances of either of them appearing in a Wolves uniform in the future are remote.

I think your expectations were different then the Wolves. The Wolves draft Ricky knowing of the buyout and told him they would be willing to wait a year, even two.

Kahn knows his cred as a GM hinges on what happens with Ricky. Becasue of that, he's not going to allow him to star for another team. Unless we get Wall, I'd say it's safe to say Rubio will be a Wolf eventually.

[horaceworthy]

Rubio has no gone above expectations. Rubio hasn't played one second in the NBA. That disqualifies him from fulfilling, exceeding, meeting, or doing anything else with expectations except falling completely flat.

Jonny Flynn is having one of the 10 best rookie PG seasons of the last decade. If it weren't for the fact that two (arguably three) others are also happening this season, that'd be getting more buzz. If your expectations were higher than that, that's your own fault.

(My 10 best rookie PGs of the last 10 years would be Gilbert Arenas, Tony Parker, Kirk Hinrich, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Raymond Felton, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Jonny Flynn, and Brandon Jennings, counting Evans and Mayo as SGs.)

Ricky Rubio is no more a member of the Minnesota Timberwolves than Latrell Sprewell. The Wolves own both their rights, and they're both (arguably) All-Star talents, but the chances of either of them appearing in a Wolves uniform in the future are remote.

39 year old, out of the NBA for half a decade Sprewell is (arguably) an All-Star talent? C'mon deeney, you're better than that.

Rubio's knocking down perimeter shots and has a case for being the best player on pssibly the best team in Europe. Even though he isn't in the NBA, that's exceeded the expectations of most. The major difference between the Rubio and Sprewell situations is that the Timberwolves actually want Rubio. I have no idea on the chances of Ricky appearing in a Wolves uniform. It depends on how patient Kahn is, the development of Flynn, and whatever Rubio's NBA goals are.

[NewWolvesOrder]

If after his planned visit to Spain Kahn feels good about the chances of Ricky playing for us in 2011, I hope he shops Flynn for players at other position during the summer, I believe we can survive with Sessions for 1 year.

[Krapinsky]

What's the harm in waiting another year? Flynn is only going to improve. All rookie point guards do (save Augustin).