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Toolin with the Trade Machine

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Re: Toolin with the Trade Machine 

Post#21 » by enetric » Tue Jan 4, 2011 5:20 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:
Rockice_8 wrote:And for the millionth time this is not keeping us from landing Melo. Guess what, if we don't have Murphy and your wish came true we still don't have Melo. We would just have an extra 11 mill in cap space and nothing to use it on. The extra money isn't making Melo change his mind about us it's just to make DEN happier. He knows we suck he's not blind, and does not want to sign here. The fact is that Favors, Murphy, and two picks is the best offer DEN is going to see. Except for the fact that they know we are desperate for a star and they are trying to milk us for everything we got. They want cap space and we are just going to bend over and and let them abuse our ass cause they we know are desperate.

I'm not going to get into this back and forth between you and E on either side of the argument and I'm not looking to drag this out forever, but these are the things you're not getting.

If we had that 11 million in cap space and nothing to use it on, we would likely get rewarded by using it to help other teams facilitate deals they can't pull off.

See the reports on Cleveland wanting a pick or two to absorb Harris?

That would be us, if we lost out on Melo, which we likely will.

We would be the ones getting a nice young player on a decent contract, with at least one solid 1st round pick as incentive!

Even if it didn't involve a Melo deal, we could be the ones pulling an OKC from a few years ago, absorbing a simple expiring albatross and receiving 2 1st round picks to help a contender get out of the lux tax, receiving $3 million in the deal and buying said player out for a discount.

And before you say who cares about the $3 million, I don't, I just understand the business side of the NBA and what motivates greedy and intelligent owners and GM's.

And finally, yes that cap space could have easily helped get Melo. I doubt it, but maybe Melo is already warmed to the idea of coming here, but you know what Denver wants besides their absurd demands? Luxury tax savings. We're now trying to find other teams to provide this to them. It likely could have saved us from even offering as many draft picks and may have easily provided Denver with the incentive to include a player like Nene coming back to us in the deal in place of Al Harrington, matter of fact giving us the leverage in that type of discussion during haggling.

Just saying.



You know what? I am not even saying that we would have ever gotten Melo. But...I was saying that with the 11 mil...we would have gotten a YES out of Denver faster with us having to ffer up LESS assets to get a deal done. We wouldnt have to give picks or Devin Harris to Cleveland for ther TE because we would have had the cap room. If we had the cash...IN HAND to offer Denver...we would have had better leverage for what we send them. Not saying who or what we spare...but no question we get a YES faster FOR LESS TRADE ASSETS!!!!

From there? Who knows what Melo says. He could still say no. But...the less Denver gets from us...the more Melo has to consider in terms of what he has around him when he gets here.

The fact that this guy simply cant get how MUCH of a bad move this Troy thing was...is the issue. And end result isnt the point. It has to do with our flexibility. And you gave a great example. Cant get Melo...there is something else to get of value for us. Troy for a one year rental wasnt it. Even if he was playing and we were on our way to 35 wins.

THere was NO LOGIC behind that move at the time we made it. It was foolish....period.
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Re: Toolin with the Trade Machine 

Post#22 » by Rockice_8 » Tue Jan 4, 2011 1:40 pm

vincecarter4pres wrote:
Rockice_8 wrote:And for the millionth time this is not keeping us from landing Melo. Guess what, if we don't have Murphy and your wish came true we still don't have Melo. We would just have an extra 11 mill in cap space and nothing to use it on. The extra money isn't making Melo change his mind about us it's just to make DEN happier. He knows we suck he's not blind, and does not want to sign here. The fact is that Favors, Murphy, and two picks is the best offer DEN is going to see. Except for the fact that they know we are desperate for a star and they are trying to milk us for everything we got. They want cap space and we are just going to bend over and and let them abuse our ass cause they we know are desperate.

I'm not going to get into this back and forth between you and E on either side of the argument and I'm not looking to drag this out forever, but these are the things you're not getting.

If we had that 11 million in cap space and nothing to use it on, we would likely get rewarded by using it to help other teams facilitate deals they can't pull off.

See the reports on Cleveland wanting a pick or two to absorb Harris?

That would be us, if we lost out on Melo, which we likely will.

We would be the ones getting a nice young player on a decent contract, with at least one solid 1st round pick as incentive!

Even if it didn't involve a Melo deal, we could be the ones pulling an OKC from a few years ago, absorbing a simple expiring albatross and receiving 2 1st round picks to help a contender get out of the lux tax, receiving $3 million in the deal and buying said player out for a discount.

And before you say who cares about the $3 million, I don't, I just understand the business side of the NBA and what motivates greedy and intelligent owners and GM's.

And finally, yes that cap space could have easily helped get Melo. I doubt it, but maybe Melo is already warmed to the idea of coming here, but you know what Denver wants besides their absurd demands? Luxury tax savings. We're now trying to find other teams to provide this to them. It likely could have saved us from even offering as many draft picks and may have easily provided Denver with the incentive to include a player like Nene coming back to us in the deal in place of Al Harrington, matter of fact giving us the leverage in that type of discussion during haggling.

Just saying.


VC4P thats actually the best argument I've heard against this trade. It would be nice to be in that position to facilitate something. But nobody is trying to use CLE's exception except us. Because DEN still thinks they have leverage

Again and again I'll say it, I wasn't for this trade I would have liked the cap space too. I still just think E is making too big a deal about it. That was my only argument.

Don't get desperate and cave into DEN stay firm with the original offer and we'll be fine, with or without him. When you trade away your star you don't get what you want and DEN will realize this or they will get nothing. They also wanted to see Melo play with a healthy squad to see if they could entice him to stay, that's another reason why DEN is stalling.

E no hard feelings man seriously, I love the passion something this board really lacks. Clearly you are right about the trade because Murphy has been useless but this is not me eating crow. We'll never know what that cap space could have done for us but I don't see anything where your in a position to be like "man if we only had that cap space."
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Re: Toolin with the Trade Machine 

Post#23 » by enetric » Tue Jan 4, 2011 11:50 pm

Its fine. You pissed me off so I was hard on you. I apologize for that. I still think that what you arent getting iS LEVERAGE. MAybe VC4P gave an exmaple that resonated with you...but its basically what I have been saying for months now in 1000000 ways. Nuggs are just one example but the one that has been to most discussed.

Denver wants to save money and grab as many assets as they can,. The cash in case they are trying to save isnt like dumping a long term contract that eats 7-10 mil per year slowly but gives you value in some way on the court.

Its 30 mil FOR THIS ONE YEAR'S BUDGET IN DENVER!!

That cap space meant...that by having more of ONE thing they want...its a lot easier to give them less of the other. Its a lot easier to stall on talks when all you are being offered is picks and you are 14 mil over the LTT with dollar for dollar matching and missing out on revenue sharing.

There were never guarantees we get Melo. And I for one...NEVER WANTED HIM at that contract value. But the point is...its easy for you to say be strong dont cave...YOU NEED TO READ what's being discusssed out there.

Nets have thrown everythng at this trade...and what they found out was...DENVER REALLY wants that cash. As that we had the most picks and young assets in the league before the season began...if we ALSO had the cash savings to offer on OUR TERMS?

That is the issue. They couldnt be telling us to use Devin Harris to BUY THEM the cash savings from the Cavs, or Kings or to get them someone else they like instead. The Nets apparently are actually considering it!!!!!

So BE AFRAID. The one screw up with Troy...could push these idiots to fix it with a series of extra msitakes. Either way...its not what we wanted.

The Troy move IS a massively bad situation for us in the sense that...we set this franchise back. Either we will pay more to get Melo or whoever...or we simply let Troy walk away and back where we started getting nothing for our troubles but a loss of Lee.

Before the deal I said..Troy wasnt going to make us a massively better team. We won 12 games. he wasnt the answer. You dont just fill roster needs yar to year. You fill them with a player who is at the same stage of development you are in. If you are building from the ground up...younger, cheaper contracts are better assets for you. Having cap flexibility was MORE important. Troy is a guy the MAgic should want. Veteran who costs you more in cash than young assets to get. he fills a need for your playoff team...Your ready to compete team.

We had many options with it that were better than Troy in October.
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Re: Toolin with the Trade Machine 

Post#24 » by enetric » Tue Jan 4, 2011 11:59 pm

Here maybe you missed this. I had it in another thread....

Jan 1, 2011 8:43 AM EST


Buried in his Weekend Dime, Marc Stein has two notes about the Nets' pursuit of Carmelo Anthony.

Billy King has been trying to rope in the Cavaliers and their $14.5 million trade exception to facilitate a deal with the Nuggets, but the Cavs, like the Nuggets, want "at least one of those top-shelf picks". Which team gets which picks seems to be an issue. Cleveland is also willing to take on multi-year contracts, Stein adds. In some scenarios, Devin Harris would go to Cleveland.
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Re: Toolin with the Trade Machine 

Post#25 » by Rockice_8 » Wed Jan 5, 2011 1:23 pm

enetric wrote:Here maybe you missed this. I had it in another thread....

Jan 1, 2011 8:43 AM EST


Buried in his Weekend Dime, Marc Stein has two notes about the Nets' pursuit of Carmelo Anthony.

Billy King has been trying to rope in the Cavaliers and their $14.5 million trade exception to facilitate a deal with the Nuggets, but the Cavs, like the Nuggets, want "at least one of those top-shelf picks". Which team gets which picks seems to be an issue. Cleveland is also willing to take on multi-year contracts, Stein adds. In some scenarios, Devin Harris would go to Cleveland.


Yeah I saw it, but we are the only team trying to get that from them. If other teams start jumping in trying to get that too then I'd be pissed we don't have that extra space to land a free pick or young player. I guess we won't know until after the deadline.

I hope your wrong and this doesn't come back to bite us in the ass. Hell maybe this is a blessing and the Melo deal falls through who knows. I see your point with dealing DEN the cap space to save them money, but I still think they were going to ask for Favors and multiple picks anyway. Still your point is valid.

I want to load up and go for CP3, thats who I want, not Melo.
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Re: Toolin with the Trade Machine 

Post#26 » by enetric » Sat Jan 8, 2011 6:20 pm

Yes, Denver was going to ask for the moon. But...my point is...where were they going to get more?'
'If we controlled the cash...then my point is...we spare something. Spare Devin for a later deal. Spare ONE first rounder. Given Devin and picks...and say NO Dice on Favors...but here is LEE and Twill instead.

And my point was...when you can turn to them weeks ago...as they were shopping around town and say...WE HAVE THE CASH SAVINGS YOU WANT....earlier iin the year no prorated...and Melo gets offered the deal and he sees..OH....Nets offered Denver a deal that retains more pieces for future moves? We have an answer.

I feel that if we controlled the cash...all along we would have had the ability to play hard ball. Nix play hard ball because they have no choice. They can ONLY offer an expiring and prospects not as good as Favors or our draft picks. If we had CASH instead on an expring...CASH to save them....it makes our position better....and I feel we had this done one way or the other WEEKS ago.

Why? Because I dont think Denver would have wanted to risk losing SOME assets and ALL THAT CASH savings. As it stands....no one had an ideal deal so they had no incentive to push the deal sooner.

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