OT: Best "top 20" duos ever?

[enetric]

The first couple of years Magic and Kareem played together, Kareem was still very mobile for a center. It wasn't until about 86 that Magic had a better offensive game. In 1981, Kareem averaged 26/10 with about 3 blocks a game. Shows he was pretty mobile I'd say.

Shaq and Kobe together were the best duo I've seen, using your criteria or otherwise. Inside and out. Both played above average defense, were physically/athletically tops at their position, could score pts, draw free throws and take over games.

Kareeem was an unstoppable offensive machine his entire career because of the sky hook. But you can see where the rebounds began to drop...and he was already declining. My point was...his so called end of prime years with Magic didnt last any longer than Shaq's with Wade. Watching Kareem as a Laker...it was obvious he wasnt the same player. Was he still a great all time player? Sure. But using the OP's critiera for his list...Kareem the Magic years IMO are no more entitled to be on it than Shaq the Wade years was what I was trying to say.

[enetric]

My reaction to your comments.

1- Wade is NOT top 20 all time in my opinion. No way.

2- I am fine with you not putting Dr.J/Moses. I dont have either of them top 20 either...but close just outside.

3- Your comment about Shaq/Wade? Shaq was the best player on the Heat his first year there. Not even close. He got absolutely ROBBED for MVP that season. I dont know if you were old enough to remember that year but he played at a fantastic level. Nash winning MVP over him (Shaq came in second that year) was a joke. Plus...his first few years with the Heat, while on the decline he was still top 3 in NBA for at least one or two additional seasons. You obviously love Wade...and i respect that...and him. But Wade gets a lot of revisionist history because he exploded in the Dallas series down 2 games. And he deserves it. But Shaq was still awesome. For some odd reason people think they need to make Shaq out to be severely declined at that point because he began to play less and defer more. He was still a dominant ridiculous force for a couple of years.

Anyway, my point to you would be...either you need to rethink Wade...or re-think Shaq with Wade the first few years. Sure his minutes and fga's dropped a bit but his fg% went up. Miami's three point shooting as a result of Shaq went through the roof. As much as you love Wade...It was Shaq who made those around him better to make that Heat team go from .500-ish with Wade and a very good supporting cast to a champion. Had Shaq not been hurting the year before in the conf. finals no way they lose to Detroit. Shaq was just dominating until that injury got past the point.

Well, first of all, I think Wade just makes top 20. He's literally #20 on my list, and the highest I've had him is 18. I really love his healthy, prime seasons...but the problem is, he's not healthy very often, so he takes a hit in my all-time ranking. But he's peaked high enough that I give him the nod. One of the best playoff performers ever, btw.

I also never said Shaq wasn't good with Wade...he just never played in his prime with Wade. One of my criteria is that both players needed to play at least one prime season together. I think Shaq's prime ended in 03. And I think Shaq was 1a to Wade's 1b in 05, and Wade was the best player in the playoffs. And I'm pretty sure it was Wade's injury that prevented the Heat from beating the Pistons in 05.

Well, I disagree with where you are saying Shaq's prime ended and then compare that to where you think Kareem's ended. Shaq played less minutes...and defered a bit more but his first couple of Miami years he was still on the of the 3 best players in the NBA and he was overall the best player on his team. Yes...Wade was the first offensive option...but again year one in Miami...Shaq 2nd in league MVP honors...and IMO robbed for that award. And year two...other than those last 5 games...Shaq played at a rediculous unstoppable level.

A couple of years after that he still played at an elite level despite dropping stats.

Now was there decline? Yes. But Kareem had declined already in LA as well playing with Magic. So I was just pointing out the criteria you were using wasnt consistent.

Shaq's last year in LA he was still the best player on the planet and I think year one Miami the same. From there I think the difference between him, TD and KG was blurred...and there was quickly a transition there where LBJ and Kobe were the best in the NBA for a few years.

Now was there regression after 2003? Sure! But not enough to make him out to be less than special. He was still an elite NBA player. Certainly higher ranked within the NBA than Kareeem was for most of his Laker years as a so called duo with Magic...where again...Kareem was really third behind Worthy for most of those years as a player. I dont care what the stats were. Kareem was noticeably declined. Used height and the sky hook to have the long career he did.

[enetric]

Personally I would have Pippen above Wade which made me think of this. Thakes a few minutes to get into it but it is worth a laugh or two when Stephen A blows up
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGEHhynJNM8[/youtube]

Just curious as to who your top 20 would be? It would make it easier to give you a best duos.
Surely you would have the following players:

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlin
Shaquille O'neal
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Julius Erving

Who would make the last ten places? Am I wrong about any of the above names?
Would you take these guys?
John Stockton, David Robinson, Kevin Garnett, Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Jerry West, LeBron, Wade, Steve Nash, Isiah Thomas, Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen... so many more names!

I would not have Dr. J in there. His impact on the game is more than the reality of him as a player. While beloved an influential...I believe that his actual reality to a ranking list based on talent...based on HIS GAME only is over sold.

One big criteria I add into my equation....how do I think these guys match up in different eras? Two guys that really bug me are him and Russell.

Russell in today's NBA game was more Dennis Rodman like than all time elite center. He would be severely undersized and his career fg% is a joke. The only elite true big man he so called stopped was Wilt. And you may not know this...Wilt's numbers head to head against Russell are a a ridiculous 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds oer game in 142 contests. I hate when Celtic fans try to run the most accomplished argument as the end all be all and rank him 1st or top 5 ever. Rings are very much a team argument. Yes..its a superstars league but the Celtics complete success was not Russell and Russell's alone. Those were stacked teams. Sure, Russell was the best player on them and yes accomplishment has to be considered in a rankings list. I have Russell top 20 for that reason...but overall...I look at the man's size and awful fg% for a guy who played that close to the basket and I try to picture him against some of the offensive forces we have had in this game the last 25 years and a different picture emerges in my head.

DR. J to me of all the players influenced by him...from Jordan on down to the many I want to be like Mike guys or guys who evolved into perimeter talents that wouldnt have existed before Dr. J....the one I think Dr. J was closest to is Wade.

And that is being KIND. There were no OTHER Dr. J types back then. He stood out. But despite those huge hands...I think as a SF with no real 3 point game...the way the game has evolved...he wouldnt be able to create to the level he did then in today's game. Still elite all time...and sure its possible he might have worked on his deep game more. But I think Wade as a 2 guard without a great 3 point shot is a good comparison.

I would most likely have Dr. J just outside the top 25 all time. Much like I would have Wade.

Anyway....those are my reasons. Now...if influence and importance to the game is in your ranking? Then by all means both of those guys have to move up higher. I just do not feel that should have any place in talent rankings. So if you agree...strip it away and see those guys in your mind against others like them. Look at their size. Look at their style of play. Look at the evolution of the NBA as athlete.


PS- I threw up in my mouth a bit that you had Nash anywhere near anyone on that list. Lets just get this one detail out of the way....

KIdd>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



nash.

[enetric]

Oof Nash in the Top 20 of all time? He's an advanced stats megastar but I think I'd have him closer to 40 than 20. Also what about Isiah Thomas?

Wow. We finally agree on something.

Nash played NO D his entire career. Check that...worst defensive player in the game his entire career and in year 8...yes EIGHT he goes from Rod Strickland like career numbers to a Dantoni system that suits HIS game so well to explode his career stats.

Nash isnt a better all time player than Kidd, Zeke, Paul or Deron Williams. Yes, those last two need more years...but come on. Look at their games.



To me...you have to be great in any system.

Nash isnt a top 5 player of his era.


1-4 Shaq/TD/Kobe/KG

5-6 Dirk/Kidd


And then we can start to look at the next batch.


Honestly...40 was overly generous. That was nice of you.