GT: Magic @ Nets - Jan 21, 7:30PM

[therealbig3]

we won the knicks game by a large margin. we wont the magic game by a large margin. if our starters didnt play great, and we still won in blowout fashion, is that not an indication that dwill with the second unit has done a fantastic job?

Your point has been that him and Johnson shouldn't play together and that one of them should play with the 2nd unit because of that...first of all, that ignores the fact that both of them are going to be playing A TON of minutes in the playoffs and that there's really no way to stagger their minutes unless you want one of them to play a significantly reduced amount of minutes...second of all, the +/- shows that we made all of our big runs with Deron and Johnson together INSTEAD OF Livingston and Johnson together. That means there is zero issue with Deron starting, and in fact, the data suggests he should.

[Prokorov]

In the playoffs, KG is probably going to get over 30 mpg, Pierce about 35 mpg, Johnson about 40 mpg, and Deron should also ideally play 40 mpg. They're going to be playing A TON together. They should get used to it.

AGAIN, dwill doesnt have to start for those guys to play together... he doesnt have to start for them to play a TON together. id he plays his usual 30-35 minutes a game, he is going to play alot with those guys. he just wont start. and because of it, him and johnson and the team will all benefit greatly.

if dwill starting is really that big a deal, then bring johnson off the bench for the same result. i tend to prefer johnson to start because i feel he is much more likely to go south if you dont get him involved early, but both are MUCH better solutions then starting them both.

and while having a great bench is overrated, having a super unproductive ineffecient bench with no offensive creating can really hurt you. and blatche and terry creating offense is going to hurt you in the long run

[therealbig3]

id he plays his usual 30-35 minutes a game, he is going to play alot with those guys. he just wont start. and because of it, him and johnson and the team will all benefit greatly.

There's no evidence for this, and if you honestly think that whether or not D-Will actually plays the first 5 minutes of a game or not actually matters in terms of Johnson's play if they're going to play the majority of the game together anyway, then we're done here. Instead of 30-35, D-Will should play 35-40 and actually play the first 5 minutes. Our best lineups should play the most minutes, and the lineups with Deron and Johnson are better than the lineups with Livingston and Johnson.

[Prokorov]

we won the knicks game by a large margin. we wont the magic game by a large margin. if our starters didnt play great, and we still won in blowout fashion, is that not an indication that dwill with the second unit has done a fantastic job?

Your point has been that him and Johnson shouldn't play together and that one of them should play with the 2nd unit because of that...first of all, that ignores the fact that both of them are going to be playing A TON of minutes in the playoffs and that there's really no way to stagger their minutes unless you want one of them to play a significantly reduced amount of minutes...second of all, the +/- shows that we made all of our big runs with Deron and Johnson together INSTEAD OF Livingston and Johnson together. That means there is zero issue with Deron starting, and in fact, the data suggests he should.

the data, for one, does not conclusively show this. and the numbers your posted not only dont take into effect the small number of minutes the starters are together(KG kills that with his minutes restriction). it also fails to compare the effect both engatively and positvely it has on the non-starting units, which compose of upwars of 40% of the total minutes played this season.

Also, you are working with an EXTREMELY small sample size. to draw set conclusions based on 5 man units from a 10 games sample, most of which is skewed by blowouts where most of our guys dont even play the entire 4th quarter is just silly.

Last, you ignore potential cause and effect. is the reason JJ and Dwill together has sparked runs just because they play well together, or is it because johnson is more engaged because we run the offense through him early and it gets him going?

Bring one of them off the bench. we are a significantly better team in that scenario. it is way to muddled otherwise. we have looked AWFUL all season long when Dwill/JJ/Pierce start together. and there is a 30+ game sample of that.

[therealbig3]

we won the knicks game by a large margin. we wont the magic game by a large margin. if our starters didnt play great, and we still won in blowout fashion, is that not an indication that dwill with the second unit has done a fantastic job?

Your point has been that him and Johnson shouldn't play together and that one of them should play with the 2nd unit because of that...first of all, that ignores the fact that both of them are going to be playing A TON of minutes in the playoffs and that there's really no way to stagger their minutes unless you want one of them to play a significantly reduced amount of minutes...second of all, the +/- shows that we made all of our big runs with Deron and Johnson together INSTEAD OF Livingston and Johnson together. That means there is zero issue with Deron starting, and in fact, the data suggests he should.

the data, for one, does not conclusively show this. and the numbers your posted not only dont take into effect the small number of minutes the starters are together(KG kills that with his minutes restriction). it also fails to compare the effect both engatively and positvely it has on the non-starting units, which compose of upwars of 40% of the total minutes played this season.

Also, you are working with an EXTREMELY small sample size. to draw set conclusions based on 5 man units from a 10 games sample, most of which is skewed by blowouts where most of our guys dont even play the entire 4th quarter is just silly.

Last, you ignore potential cause and effect. is the reason JJ and Dwill together has sparked runs just because they play well together, or is it because johnson is more engaged because we run the offense through him early and it gets him going?

Bring one of them off the bench. we are a significantly better team in that scenario. it is way to muddled otherwise. we have looked AWFUL all season long when Dwill/JJ/Pierce start together. and there is a 30+ game sample of that.

And you literally have zero sample size. Deron, JJ, and Pierce have never started together along with Anderson and KG. When similar lineups have been played with Deron instead of Livingston, we've been better. So far, the information we do have tells us that Deron is a better fit with the starters than Livingston.

[Prokorov]

And you literally have zero sample size. Deron, JJ, and Pierce have never started together along with Anderson and KG.

Which is irrelevant. the trio has started together, and it hasnt worked well.

When similar lineups have been played with Deron instead of Livingston, we've been better. So far, the information we do have tells us that Deron is a better fit with the starters than Livingston.

again, you miss the point. it is irrelevant that the starting unit is better with dwill then livingston. the point is overall, as a team, we are better with dwill or JJ coming off the bench. it utilizes our talent better over 48 minutes.

it isnt about the 12 minutes a game or so our starting 5 is all on the court together. its about the 48 minutes we are on the floor, period.

[Palmeirense]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10320047/2014-midseason-forecast-east-standings

Whoa, they have us going 21-19 the rest of the way? let's shut them up.

21-21 is what they predict. Nets are 18-22 now & they predict 39-43.

Lol true, strong math on my part.

[therealbig3]

Which is irrelevant. the trio has started together, and it hasnt worked well.

So the guy arguing about lineup dynamics and how each player affects the other now says that a 3 player combination is all that matters without accounting for the other 2? What? Clearly, Johnson, Pierce, and KG moving up a spot and Anderson sliding in as SG has made a tremendous difference, nothing to do at all with the combination of Deron, JJ, and Pierce.

again, you miss the point. it is irrelevant that the starting unit is better with dwill then livingston. the point is overall, as a team, we are better with dwill or JJ coming off the bench. it utilizes our talent better over 48 minutes.

And over 48 minutes IN THE PLAYOFFS, the starting unit plays a lot more together and is by far the most important lineup. The bench almost becomes irrelevant. Even in his prime, even when he was arguably the Spurs best player at times, Manu didn't play a ton of minutes in the playoffs, and honestly, I think that worked against SA at times.

And you're shifting the goalposts like crazy. First you argue that Deron plays better with the 2nd unit, then you say Deron and JJ can't play together, then you say it doesn't even matter if they play the majority of the game together they just shouldn't start together. Which one is it? And it doesn't even matter, because none of those are true.

Why can't JJ be more engaged with Deron instead of Livingston? We tried to do that a lot last year too, JJ is just a very inconsistent player, and honestly, what happens when he cools off and has his bad JJ games? It's bound to happen eventually...I feel like people are too enamored with a hot stretch by JJ where he's able to carry the load for a bit without D-Will, but people are forgetting that this isn't typical JJ. And even if he is able to play like this more consistently, he's doing it in a way that's conducive to playing next to Deron, unlike last year.

[Prokorov]

So the guy arguing about lineup dynamics and how each player affects the other now says that a 3 player combination is all that matters without accounting for the other 2? What? Clearly, Johnson, Pierce, and KG moving up a spot and Anderson sliding in as SG has made a tremendous difference, nothing to do at all with the combination of Deron, JJ, and Pierce.

are you that obtuse? is it really that hard of a concept to grasp. its been explained a dozen times. its been written about. its been said by deron himself. its about the dynamic between joe, deron, and paul. and specifically joe getting off to good starts with things going exclusively through him and dwill coming off the bench.

going small makes a difference. of course it does. thats a completely different discussion. will dwill in our small ball lineup be better then dwill with say evans at PF in a traditional lineup? yes. that has nothing to do with this discussion.

again, im not debating our starting lineup is better with deron williams in it. it is. what im saying is, that is irrelevant, since our team overall, over 48 minutes is better when one of dwill/JJ comes off the bench, sicne it increased the effectiveness of everyone involved while not cutting into the total minutes they are on the floor.

And over 48 minutes IN THE PLAYOFFS, the starting unit plays a lot more together and is by far the most important lineup. The bench almost becomes irrelevant. Even in his prime, even when he was arguably the Spurs best player at times, Manu didn't play a ton of minutes in the playoffs, and honestly, I think that worked against SA at times.

again, irrelevant. you can play dwill with the other starters MORE in the playoffs while still bringing him off the bench. unless everyone is playing 48 minutes, you can still bring dwill off the bench(or JJ off the bench) get JJ going early, and still play everyone heavy minutes. just because a guy doesnt start, doesnt mean he cant play a big bulk of minutes with the guy who does

And you're shifting the goalposts like crazy. First you argue that Deron plays better with the 2nd unit, then you say Deron and JJ can't play together, then you say it doesn't even matter if they play the majority of the game together they just shouldn't start together. Which one is it? And it doesn't even matter, because none of those are true.

no one is shifting goal posts. all 3 of those things are true. they are not mutually exclusive. im not sure why you would think they would be,

-YES! the second unit is much better with dwill. and he fits very well with those guys and their skillsets.

-YES! deron and JJ are much more effective when the other is not on the floor and things are run through them. i never said they couldnt play together, i said they werent nearly as effective that way. and in particular, JJ goes south when he doesnt get off to a good start - which is more common when he creates the offense

-YES! it is fine if JJ and dwill play alot together as long as they dont start together. staggering them to start the game is more likely to get them both off to quick starts. especially johnson, who can go south quickly

Why can't JJ be more engaged with Deron instead of Livingston.

because when livingston is on the floor instead of Williams Everything is run through johnson and he creates all the offense with that unit. Yes, deron can play off the ball and take a back seat, but then you arent utilizing deron's skills best. stagger them and you get the best out of both worlds.

Why you think its some crazy idea to bring one off the bench is beyond me. especially when deron himself agrees with this idea

[jeff1624]

you mean did we drastically under achieve last season, racking up wins mostly against sub .500 competition, getting beat pretty basly but .500+ competition, and then lose on our home floor to an inferior injured team?

Under achieve? Our team wasn't all that great. We only had 3 above average players in our starting 5. We changed coaches mid season. We lost i the playoffs because we were hilariously outcoached. It had nothing to do with the Deron/Joe backcourt.

you mean where our offense was a mess the entire season and Johnson went missing for week long stretches at a time?

LOL. We were 8th in offensive efficiency despite playing Gerald Wallace and Reggie Evans 30+ minutes each.

To say Johnson and Williams play well together is not really accurate. this isnt like frazier and monroe. They dont butt heads, but it is pretty clear their games dont really mesh well.

To say they can't play together is inaccurate. This isn't a Nash/Kobe situation where both dominate the ball and struggle mightily playing without it. Both Johnson ad Deron are more than capable of running around screens and spotting up.

I seriously don't understand your argument either. Joe is capable of playing with Shaun over Deron why? Because Deron dominates the ball more and takes possessions away from Joe? Is that it? Because as far as I know one of the biggest criticism Deron receives from Nets fans is that he often defers to his teammates way too much.

[Prokorov]

Under achieve? Our team wasn't all that great. We only had 3 above average players in our starting 5. We changed coaches mid season. We lost i the playoffs because we were hilariously outcoached. It had nothing to do with the Deron/Joe backcourt.

yes, underachieve. 49 wins in a weak conference where the knicks won 54 games and were we basically only beat sub .500 teams. our coach getting fired was BECAUSE we were underachieving.

To say they can't play together is inaccurate. This isn't a Nash/Kobe situation where both dominate the ball and struggle mightily playing without it. Both Johnson ad Deron are more than capable of running around screens and spotting up.

i didnt say they couldnt play together. i said we are much better off when they dont, as it allows both to play to their strengths more

I seriously don't understand your argument either. Joe is capable of playing with Shaun over Deron why? Because Deron dominates the ball more and takes possessions away from Joe? Is that it? Because as far as I know one of the biggest criticism Deron receives from Nets fans is that he often defers to his teammates way too much.

yes. exactly. and deron deferring to joe is no better. its not about dwill defering to joe. its about having lineups were neither one of them have to defer. both can play off the ball and shoot less. but they are better when they dont

[MrDollarBills]

I say:

Deron/Livingston/Johnson/Pierce/KG

Trust me. I like AA but I think Deron should start, but I like what Livingston has been doing as a starter. His defense and energy is much needed

The Nets will have to raw dog it without a back up PG IMO. I blame Billy King.

[Quiet-Dude]

Let me get this straight. Livingston was guarding KD and Lebron the other day, meanwhile D will was getting crossed by Derek Fisher and you telling me the impact gap defensively is not significant?

Is true, Opp sag off Livingston, but guess what? all the other starters are spot shooters/space the floor so it doesnt affect the offense tremendously.

If you bring Livinston off the bench, then the defense sag off him and Kirilenko at the same time, making it more difficult for Blatche/Terry and themselves.

Having Williams coming off the bench helps the 2nd unit to fluid better mainly because besides Blatche no one else is really good creating for themselves. I know you guys are looking at the big picture thinking about the playoffs but these team will rely on the second unit simply because Pierce would play between 31-38min MAX and KG wont reach 32 . Williams will close out games and he still gets to play with the starters regardless.

Starting Livingston for 7 minutes helps to balance the rotation

[Prokorov]

Let me get this straight. Livingston was guarding KD and Lebron the other day, meanwhile D will was getting crossed by Derek Fisher and you telling me the impact gap defensively is not significant?

Is true, Opp sag off Livingston, but guess what? all the other starters are spot shooters/space the floor so it doesnt affect the offense tremendously.

If you bring Livinston off the bench, then the defense sag off him and Kirilenko at the same time, making it more difficult for Blatche/Terry and themselves.

Having Williams coming off the bench helps the 2nd unit to fluid better mainly because besides Blatche no one else is really good creating for themselves. I know you guys are looking at the big picture thinking about the playoffs but these team will rely on the second unit simply because Pierce would play between 31-38min MAX and KG wont reach 32 . Williams will close out games and he still gets to play with the starters regardless.

Starting Livingston for 7 minutes helps to balance the rotation

i think people on opposite sides of this wont see eye to eye ever on it. i think just the stigma of having your most talented player come off the bench is unacceptable for people regardless of the rationale or if it does/doesnt work

[Paradise]

I say:

Deron/Livingston/Johnson/Pierce/KG

Trust me. I like AA but I think Deron should start, but I like what Livingston has been doing as a starter. His defense and energy is much needed

The Nets will have to raw dog it without a back up PG IMO. I blame Billy King.

This.

Both need to start. Livingston got abused by Jameer Nelson, Norris Cole, Lowry, etc. Even though his D and size makes the starters better, he cannot guard any small PGs.

Both should start together. AA should come off the bench since Terry and Kirilenko are inconsistent offensively.


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[Prokorov]

I say:

Deron/Livingston/Johnson/Pierce/KG

Trust me. I like AA but I think Deron should start, but I like what Livingston has been doing as a starter. His defense and energy is much needed

The Nets will have to raw dog it without a back up PG IMO. I blame Billy King.

This.

Both need to start. Livingston got abused by Jameer Nelson, Norris Cole, Lowry, etc. Even though his D and size makes the starters better, he cannot guard any small PGs.

Both should start together. AA should come off the bench since Terry and Kirilenko are inconsistent offensively.


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I hate our second unit being run by anderson and terry. they kill us at the point. if you want to start dwill, i dont think you can also start livingston, unless we get a legit backup pg to run that second unit.

having terry or anderson run the point just brings out the worst of everyone in that unit