Shaun Livingston

[NyCeEvO]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MikePradaSBN/status/440705279412277248[/tweet]
I wonder if this issue would come up in the playoffs.

Give Thibs just a little bit of study time to see that Livingston doesn't like taking outside shots and you better believe he's gonna load up on the other players.

The best way to work against this would be to have Livingston attack the rim if they decide to leave him open.

[Elements]

Im surprised more teams havent tried to exploit it.

The most Livington would normally do in that situation would to get closer and use his length to make a jumpshot over the smaller defender or drive in forcing the defense to react to his quickness and length.

[therealbig3]

Well, the spacing is fine when you have a C that can shoot (both KG and Blatche are good midrange shooters out to almost the 3pt line), and when you play a stretch PF that can shoot the 3 at 35-40% (Pierce and Mirza). Everyone around Livingston in the starting lineup is a really good shooter (Deron, Johnson, Pierce, KG), so it doesn't really affect our spacing.

Also, Livingston is active without the ball. If he catches it and nobody is close to him, he attacks the rim. When there's an open lane, he cuts. And he's not a bad shooter really, he just doesn't have 3pt range. We dealt with it when we had Wallace, and Livingston at least realizes that he's not a good spot up shooter, so he doesn't try. He aggressively drives and attacks the defense if they give him space. Wallace didn't do that, he just kept spotting up and kept bricking, even if he had a wide open lane.

[MGrand15]

Yep, teams know Livingston can't shoot now and it hasn't been that much of a problem. He uses the space to attack the rim (or he hangs around the baseline). I only worry about our spacing if he's playing with AK47 and maybe with Plumlee. Fortunately our entire rotation can shoot really well except for Liv, AK and Plumlee (barely in rotation). Liv and AK47 have the IQ to attack the space given to them by the defense or cut to open spots instead of just spotting up and cluttering our spacing like Wallace/Evans.

[Prokorov]

I don't think anyone talks enough about how good Livingston has been as our SG combo guard and wing defender.

Def Rating on the floor in 5 minutes of 4th qtr or OT: 87.8

On The Floor: 106.4 PPP
Off The Floor: 112.4 PPP

5 steals vs Chicago and 64 steals in total this season which is now a new career high.

i dont lke on/off stats for individual defensive rating (not to say he hasnt been good defensively), i think its really misleading. for instance, when Livingston is on the floor, KG usually is as well. When livingston comes off the floor, KG is usually off as well.

on/off stats are just too tied into the other 4 guys who are on the floor with you the most and those guys usually come off with you

But when on/off is consistently holding up for an entire season (and especially when you see that KG doesn't even play much), a large sample size kind of minimizes the amount of "noise" you're talking about.

It's a very valid stat to look at imo, especially when you're trying to determine impact and you want some statistical evidence for that impact other than pure subjective reasoning.

it really doesnt... case in point. look at reggie evans on/off numbers for last season. we were MUCH better offensively with reggie evans on the floor. and its clear that has nothing to do with reggie evans and everything to do with him playing with Dwill/JJ/Lopez for most of his minutes, those guys coming off the floor with him, and us having a terrible bench.

im not saying livingston isnt playing good defense. he is and ive been a huge livingston guy all year.

but on/off is just not a reliable gauge for individual players... and id argue that larger sample sizes skew it further, as its just more time for the unit you play with to inflate/deflate your impact. ESPECIALLY for role players who start (like evans last year).

[Prokorov]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MikePradaSBN/status/440705279412277248[/tweet]
I wonder if this issue would come up in the playoffs.

Give Thibs just a little bit of study time to see that Livingston doesn't like taking outside shots and you better believe he's gonna load up on the other players.

The best way to work against this would be to have Livingston attack the rim if they decide to leave him open.

spacing issues? we have 3 outstanding 3 point shooters next to livingston and KG who needs to be gaurded to 18 feet. if thibs or any coach wants to make livingston beat him 1 on 1 with no help in the paint then livingston is going to torch that coach.

[Prokorov]

Well, the spacing is fine when you have a C that can shoot (both KG and Blatche are good midrange shooters out to almost the 3pt line), and when you play a stretch PF that can shoot the 3 at 35-40% (Pierce and Mirza). Everyone around Livingston in the starting lineup is a really good shooter (Deron, Johnson, Pierce, KG), so it doesn't really affect our spacing.

Also, Livingston is active without the ball. If he catches it and nobody is close to him, he attacks the rim. When there's an open lane, he cuts. And he's not a bad shooter really, he just doesn't have 3pt range. We dealt with it when we had Wallace, and Livingston at least realizes that he's not a good spot up shooter, so he doesn't try. He aggressively drives and attacks the defense if they give him space. Wallace didn't do that, he just kept spotting up and kept bricking, even if he had a wide open lane.

yup... even further, you dont need a center who shoots cause you have a stretch 4 in pierce on the floor. you can just go pick and roll with livingston and the center and its either a tough gaurd or they give up an open 3 to dwill/pp/jj.

floor spacing has gone WAAAY overboard among fans and media. you dont need 5 outside shooters to have good floor spacing. and id even suggest that floor balance is just as important... and i think us not having floor balance because we dont have a PF or C who is a threat to score inside hurts us a bit(like the floor balance plumlee has brought the last couple games)

[Prokorov]

Yep, teams know Livingston can't shoot now and it hasn't been that much of a problem. He uses the space to attack the rim (or he hangs around the baseline). I only worry about our spacing if he's playing with AK47 and maybe with Plumlee. Fortunately our entire rotation can shoot really well except for Liv, AK and Plumlee (barely in rotation). Liv and AK47 have the IQ to attack the space given to them by the defense or cut to open spots instead of just spotting up and cluttering our spacing like Wallace/Evans.

yup... and at 6'7" livingston can also kill smaller gaurds in the post. this isnt reggie evans who can just be completely ignored. livingston can post, run pick and roll, drive past his man and finish at the rim

[NyCeEvO]

Im surprised more teams havent tried to exploit it.

The most Livington would normally do in that situation would to get closer and use his length to make a jumpshot over the smaller defender or drive in forcing the defense to react to his quickness and length.

It's hard to prepare for this kind of issue during the regular season. You have to face teams one after another and isolating Livingston isn't the first thing that most teams are looking to stop especially when D-Will is playing like how he should be playing.

[Keith Van Horn]

Does anyone think that with all the positive results Shaun has received with the Nets -- the praise from Kidd, the chance to still start regularly -- that he's going to want to resign here next year?

[Prokorov]

Does anyone think that with all the positive results Shaun has received with the Nets -- the praise from Kidd, the chance to still start regularly -- that he's going to want to resign here next year?

i think he is going to go where he gets the most money. if all things were equal i think that would be here.

[MGrand15]

Well, the spacing is fine when you have a C that can shoot (both KG and Blatche are good midrange shooters out to almost the 3pt line), and when you play a stretch PF that can shoot the 3 at 35-40% (Pierce and Mirza). Everyone around Livingston in the starting lineup is a really good shooter (Deron, Johnson, Pierce, KG), so it doesn't really affect our spacing.

Also, Livingston is active without the ball. If he catches it and nobody is close to him, he attacks the rim. When there's an open lane, he cuts. And he's not a bad shooter really, he just doesn't have 3pt range. We dealt with it when we had Wallace, and Livingston at least realizes that he's not a good spot up shooter, so he doesn't try. He aggressively drives and attacks the defense if they give him space. Wallace didn't do that, he just kept spotting up and kept bricking, even if he had a wide open lane.

yup... even further, you dont need a center who shoots cause you have a stretch 4 in pierce on the floor. you can just go pick and roll with livingston and the center and its either a tough gaurd or they give up an open 3 to dwill/pp/jj.

floor spacing has gone WAAAY overboard among fans and media. you dont need 5 outside shooters to have good floor spacing. and id even suggest that floor balance is just as important... and i think us not having floor balance because we dont have a PF or C who is a threat to score inside hurts us a bit(like the floor balance plumlee has brought the last couple games)

Meh, this is the same stuff that people were saying while defending PJC and Reggie Evans last year. It killed us consistently against good, smart teams last year and it killed us in the playoffs.

Fortunately, we've played a bunch of good teams with Livingston in the lineup. They obviously don't have as much time to prepare as they do in a playoff series but as we saw last year, good teams still make you pay for that sort of stuff.

It's a concern when he plays together with AK47 or Plumlee but outside of that, I wouldn't worry. Livingston uses that space wisely. He uses it to drive in, post up or cut.

[Paradise]

Does anyone think that with all the positive results Shaun has received with the Nets -- the praise from Kidd, the chance to still start regularly -- that he's going to want to resign here next year?

I think he will stay but we would have to offer him a full time starting role which I have no problem with.

The question is will he be okay waiting another year for us to get his bird rights and re-sign him to a lucrative extension or will he want the mini MLE.

[Prokorov]

Meh, this is the same stuff that people were saying while defending PJC and Reggie Evans last year. It killed us consistently against good, smart teams last year and it killed us in the playoffs.

the situations couldnt be any further apart:

1) Last year it wasnt just evans. it was evans AND wallace. we had just 2 shooters on the floor. this year we have livingston surrounded with 3 shooters as well as garnett who can also shoot it from range.

2) Evans is a complete zero on offense. While livingston isnt a good 3 point shooter he is FAR from a zero on offense as he can put the ball on the floor, has a post up game, and can shoot it out to 15 feet.

also, while spacing was a problem last year, it was way overblown then as well. our main problems where our big 3 simply nto being consistent players

[Prokorov]

Does anyone think that with all the positive results Shaun has received with the Nets -- the praise from Kidd, the chance to still start regularly -- that he's going to want to resign here next year?

I think he will stay but we would have to offer him a full time starting role which I have no problem with.

The question is will he be okay waiting another year for us to get his bird rights and re-sign him to a lucrative extension or will he want the mini MLE.

id rather use the mMLE on bogs. i love livingston but i dont see him int he 2016 and beyond plans. i think bogs has some chance to be in the those plans or at the very least would get more in a trade. id offer livingston whatever he can make outside of that and if he walks he walks

[therealbig3]

also, while spacing was a problem last year, it was way overblown then as well. our main problems where our big 3 simply nto being consistent players

I highly disagree with this point. I think there's only so much you can do when you're running into 3 defenders everywhere you go. We had such a hard time generating easy baskets. And despite that, D-Will and Lopez actually played well overall (Johnson sucked).

It was clear as day that the lack of spacing was killing our offensive execution, and it wasn't helping us defensively either, since Wallace and Evans both sucked defensively. Thibs completely outcoached PJ. Pretty sure we were destroying the Bulls whenever Lopez and Blatche played together, and yet, PJ barely used that combination.

That to me is the main reason why we lost. PJ stubbornly sticked to lineups that didn't work, and he stubbornly refused to play lineups that did work. I agree, it was embarrassing that we lost to a depleted team, but to me, it wasn't them outworking us that beat us...it was that we didn't USE our talent advantage. We voluntarily played with less talent on the court (Wallace+Evans) and allowed them to match us. And it's not like we were playing scrubs that could shoot, like Bogans...we were playing scrubs that played right into their hands and allowed them to play 5 on 3 defensively.

[Paradise]

Great article on Livingston's impact on our defense

The key to the Nets’ 22-9 record since Jan. 1 has been their defense, which is fifth-best in that time and has forced 19.2 turnovers per 100 possessions. No team has forced that many turnovers over a full, 82-game season since 1997-98.

The most important element of that improved Brooklyn defense is the length of Shaun Livingston, a guy who was signed to be the back-up point guard but who ranks third on the team in minutes and has started every game he’s played (he’s missed one) since … Jan. 1.

It’s more than that. Livingston’s size unlocks everything the Nets do defensively. Without his size and activity, the scheme doesn’t work nearly as well, and the numbers bear that out. The Nets have been 8.5 points per 100 possessions better defensively since Jan. 1 when Livingston has been on the floor.



After doing a solid job in Cleveland in the second half last season, Livingston was Jason Kidd‘s choice to back-up Williams. Some of us thought he was a bad fit because of his poor (non-existent, really) perimeter shooting. But Kidd was right all along … although he couldn’t have known that he’d be relying on Livingston as much as he has.

http://turnernbahangtime.files.wordpres ... =540&h=180