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Joe blasts team effort again

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Re: Joe blasts team effort again 

Post#81 » by Prokorov » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:26 pm

enetric wrote:
see I think the problem is you're perhaps simplifying the dichotomy too much. I disagree with your assessment of Joe Johnson's game obviously.


Thats fine, agree to disagree on some of it i guess...

Sure I can concede that over time he has tried to be more of a system player. However I think you're laying it on a bit much about most unselfish player in the league. And I believe his teammates are probably thinking behind the scenes bad enough we got to get trashed in the media not once but twice and the guy who is saying it has literally had me doing jumping jacks to let him know I was open and he didn't pass the ball. maybe not as often as he did in his Atlanta days but still often enough that his comments may not be received with the fire and brimstone jock leadership you and other fans feel pumped up to hear.


See, this is where i disagree... i mean sure, with the suns he was more a off ball catch and shoot guy. but i though his prime in atlanta he played some really outstanding team ball. he always got a rap for playing in isolation, which he did alot of, but he really was always an outstanding and willing passer. A guy taking 16-18 shots a game who dishes out 5-6 assists a game. He was never a black whole and i think the mantra of him getting so many iso's for him has led to a myth that he was some shot jacker, which really was never the case.

And here, that certainly hasnt been the issue. Joe has been finding guys out of the double, out of the post, and on penetration pretty regularly. other then the occasional heat check, you really dont have any "that was a bad shot" moments from joe or "oh he missed that guy in the corner".

you have someone who was a 22/5/5 guy on a perrenial playoff team and #1 option, who came here and without even a single word took a back seat as the third option. he has always been about the team.
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Re: Joe blasts team effort again 

Post#82 » by Prokorov » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:29 pm

enetric wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
enetric wrote:
I think you are missing the point.


I think that your perception of Joe Johnson's play is a bit inaccurate. The guy is more then willing to pass up shots. and has been his entire career. He is as unselfish as it gets on the court for his position. yea he isnt rondo or kidd blantantly passing up wide open paint shots... but the guys will always give up his shot for an open one if he sees it


well, we both think the other guys assessment of his game is inaccurate. Therein lies our problem in this conversation. However, I have a strong feeling there are a larger percentage of his teammates behind the scenes that agree with an assessment closer to mine then the unselfish Mother Teresa you are portraying. :wink:



haha.... fair enough. and maybe that is the case. Lets assume it is... im still ok with it. If selfish dogs want to be mad that another selfish dog called them out, then they dont really get it anyhow. I think anything behind the scenes to get this team playing on the level they should has long been exhausted. tons of coaches, brought inproven leaders/champions. the keep it in house appraoch i think has been exhausted.

maybe you are right, hollins isnt around long, JJ causes a dividie in the locker room. maybe that happens... i think it will lead to alot of good that comes along with maybe a hollins firing or johnson being dealt in the offseason.
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Re: Joe blasts team effort again 

Post#83 » by enetric » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:35 pm

kerry kittles wrote:
enetric wrote:See your hearing the testosterone you want to hear. And justifying it. You aren't considering the actual comment he made. The king of isolation is criticizing his teammates for exhausting their options before they pass the ball. Watch Joe Johnson play. It has been the knock on his game his entire career. Hell Allen Iverson could get 5 assists per game but most of them came in the last 5 seconds of of the shot clock in desperation when there was nothing left
He gave it to a guy hoping he would dunk it before the shot clock expired. What I said was spot on. Joe Johnson critique may be accurate but he doesn't walk his talk. He absolutely is a player who exhaust his options in the face of better passes. And that was my entire point. not that he shouldn't take over games at certain points or that we shouldn't have better ball movement.

To me what he did here would be like Shaquille O'Neal saying to the media some guys really need to make their free throws. It's not going to light a fire under anyone it's going to make them think what a jackass.


Joe Johnson apg:
2005-06 6.5
2006-07 4.4
2007-08 5.8
2008-09 5.8
2009-10 4.9
2010-11 4.7

He 3 times was one of 5 players or less to finish top 20 in both ppg and apg. I don't know why you say even AI can average 5 apg implying Joe can't when he certainly has proved he can.
How many SGs and SFs average 5 apg?!?

That analogy is horrible as Joe is not a poor isolation player. Shaq is a poor free throw shooter. Look at the game winners where Joe gets his man on an island and wins us the game. If tonight Jack tries to do the same thing and bricks a shot would Joe be well within his right to criticize him, yes. ISO Joe is efficient and good what he does which is in turn good for the team, Jarrett Jack long 2's are inefficient and not good for the team


You quite literally have misconstrued every single thing that I'm trying to make. So I can't really fault you for failing to dispute what I said. Because you disputed something else entirely.

No matter how many shots or assists or points or effective ISO plays you can point to, Joe Johnson is often guilty of doing the thing he publicly criticize his teammates for. Which is failing to pass the ball unless they have exhausted their own options.

I am NOT saying it's all he does. I am saying he absolutely is one of the culprits. So he should walk his freakin talk or shut his pie hole. Because that's how it's going to be perceived by others. Which means it won't unite them it will alienate them. So even if you like the tone of his comment if it divides them would that make you happy? Or will you simply make excuses for it?
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Re: Joe blasts team effort again 

Post#84 » by enetric » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:44 pm

Prokorov wrote:
enetric wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
I think that your perception of Joe Johnson's play is a bit inaccurate. The guy is more then willing to pass up shots. and has been his entire career. He is as unselfish as it gets on the court for his position. yea he isnt rondo or kidd blantantly passing up wide open paint shots... but the guys will always give up his shot for an open one if he sees it


well, we both think the other guys assessment of his game is inaccurate. Therein lies our problem in this conversation. However, I have a strong feeling there are a larger percentage of his teammates behind the scenes that agree with an assessment closer to mine then the unselfish Mother Teresa you are portraying. :wink:



haha.... fair enough. and maybe that is the case. Lets assume it is... im still ok with it. If selfish dogs want to be mad that another selfish dog called them out, then they dont really get it anyhow. I think anything behind the scenes to get this team playing on the level they should has long been exhausted. tons of coaches, brought inproven leaders/champions. the keep it in house appraoch i think has been exhausted.

maybe you are right, hollins isnt around long, JJ causes a dividie in the locker room. maybe that happens... i think it will lead to alot of good that comes along with maybe a hollins firing or johnson being dealt in the offseason.


yeah I do get where you're coming from. And I really don't have a problem with what he did. He's not wrong. I'm just sort of amused by it. his teammates aren't going to check his stats they're going to think in their own memory has he taking shots when I was wide open? For most people perception is reality.
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Re: Joe blasts team effort again 

Post#85 » by kerry kittles » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:44 pm

enetric wrote:
kerry kittles wrote:
enetric wrote:See your hearing the testosterone you want to hear. And justifying it. You aren't considering the actual comment he made. The king of isolation is criticizing his teammates for exhausting their options before they pass the ball. Watch Joe Johnson play. It has been the knock on his game his entire career. Hell Allen Iverson could get 5 assists per game but most of them came in the last 5 seconds of of the shot clock in desperation when there was nothing left
He gave it to a guy hoping he would dunk it before the shot clock expired. What I said was spot on. Joe Johnson critique may be accurate but he doesn't walk his talk. He absolutely is a player who exhaust his options in the face of better passes. And that was my entire point. not that he shouldn't take over games at certain points or that we shouldn't have better ball movement.

To me what he did here would be like Shaquille O'Neal saying to the media some guys really need to make their free throws. It's not going to light a fire under anyone it's going to make them think what a jackass.


Joe Johnson apg:
2005-06 6.5
2006-07 4.4
2007-08 5.8
2008-09 5.8
2009-10 4.9
2010-11 4.7

He 3 times was one of 5 players or less to finish top 20 in both ppg and apg. I don't know why you say even AI can average 5 apg implying Joe can't when he certainly has proved he can.
How many SGs and SFs average 5 apg?!?

That analogy is horrible as Joe is not a poor isolation player. Shaq is a poor free throw shooter. Look at the game winners where Joe gets his man on an island and wins us the game. If tonight Jack tries to do the same thing and bricks a shot would Joe be well within his right to criticize him, yes. ISO Joe is efficient and good what he does which is in turn good for the team, Jarrett Jack long 2's are inefficient and not good for the team


You quite literally have misconstrued every single thing that I'm trying to make. So I can't really fault you for failing to dispute what I said. Because you disputed something else entirely.

No matter how many shots or assists or points or effective ISO plays you can point to, Joe Johnson is often guilty of doing the thing he publicly criticize his teammates for. Which is failing to pass the ball unless they have exhausted their own options.

I am NOT saying it's all he does. I am saying he absolutely is one of the culprits. So he should walk his freakin talk or shut his pie hole. Because that's how it's going to be perceived by others. Which means it won't unite them it will alienate them. So even if you like the tone of his comment if it divides them would that make you happy? Or will you simply make excuses for it?


I think Joe is a more willing passer than you give him credit for. Also, I think it's about people's roles on the team. A role player whose role is to be a 3 and D guy shouldn't be exhausting all their options before passing. They should be playing defense and taking open 3s and not looking to create for themself. Joe whose the focal point of our offense many times he's on the floor - it's okay for more often than it is for a role player.

I don't think this is going to divide the locker room.
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Re: Joe blasts team effort again 

Post#86 » by enetric » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:48 pm

at the end of the day I hope what Joe Johnson said works. I hope people perceive him as a pass first kind of guy not ISO Joe and they are motivated by what he had to say. Let's see what happens.
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Re: Joe blasts team effort again 

Post#87 » by Prokorov » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:57 pm

enetric wrote: his teammates aren't going to check his stats they're going to think in their own memory has he taking shots when I was wide open? For most people perception is reality.


this is a good point... and there are certainly people who when criticized are going to look at the source instead of themselves first

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