GT: Nets @ Detroit - Jan 10th 7:30 PM

[therealbig3]

Yeah, I've defended Mirza before, but he needs to go. He's been brutal this season.

[Keith Van Horn]

Glad I skipped this one.


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[Paradise]

And for all this bulls*** talk about Lopez's lack of free throw shooting, Joe shot a whopping ZERO free throws tonight. And averages the same number of FTA's per game as Lopez despite playing 8 more minutes per game AND shooting the ball more. But nahh... Lopez sucks. Joe rules.

EDIT: For those that think I only blame Hollins. I didn't have a problem with him tonight. Mirza, Jack and Lopez combining for 6 of 30 shooting and Plumlee/Joe/Jack's AWFUL turnovers late in the fourth quarters (and a couple of other things like Joe missing layups among other things) were what did us in.

I agree more criticism should be made of Joe's FTA attempts. He's not above any criticism especially after his "I'm off this sh**t" stretch of pathetic effort but he gets the benefit of the doubt because he actually has been our most consistent player for the last two years and single handedly won us a playoff series. If Lopez actually played consistent basketball and outplayed Noah in the postseason, more fans would be a little bit more understanding.

But it doesn't even really matter. They all need to go and I'm on the verge of rooting for this team to bottom out. Maybe that will wake up our airheaded front office and ownership.

[Zachbretton]

I know this is going to sound crazy but our recent blunders make me appreciate DWill. I don't know if it's him specifically, or just having some semblance of quality at the PG position, but JJack is not meant to be a starting PG. I think this stint is going to do great for his confidence and abilities down the stretch... But it's too painful to know our other PG option is Darius Morris.

I don't care if it's a trade that brings in a new head PG or we just have a time where we can really rely on him, but it's just so clear that we won't go far if we don't have someone beyond JJack


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[F3LON]

And for all this bulls*** talk about Lopez's lack of free throw shooting, Joe shot a whopping ZERO free throws tonight. And averages the same number of FTA's per game as Lopez despite playing 8 more minutes per game AND shooting the ball more. But nahh... Lopez sucks. Joe rules.

EDIT: For those that think I only blame Hollins. I didn't have a problem with him tonight. Mirza, Jack and Lopez combining for 6 of 30 shooting and Plumlee/Joe/Jack's AWFUL turnovers late in the fourth quarters (and a couple of other things like Joe missing layups among other things) were what did us in.

I agree more criticism should be made of Joe's FTA attempts. He's not above any criticism especially after his "I'm off this sh**t" stretch of pathetic effort but he gets the benefit of the doubt because he actually has been our most consistent player for the last two years and single handedly won us a playoff series. If Lopez actually played consistent basketball and outplayed Noah in the postseason, more fans would be a little bit more understanding.

But it doesn't even really matter. They all need to go and I'm on the verge of rooting for this team to bottom out. Maybe that will wake up our airheaded front office and ownership.

Why would you criticize him for something he has never done in his career? SMH

Im glad I missed this one

[NyCeEvO]

And for all this bulls*** talk about Lopez's lack of free throw shooting, Joe shot a whopping ZERO free throws tonight. And averages the same number of FTA's per game as Lopez despite playing 8 more minutes per game AND shooting the ball more. But nahh... Lopez sucks. Joe rules.

EDIT: For those that think I only blame Hollins. I didn't have a problem with him tonight. Mirza, Jack and Lopez combining for 6 of 30 shooting and Plumlee/Joe/Jack's AWFUL turnovers late in the fourth quarters (and a couple of other things like Joe missing layups among other things) were what did us in.

I agree more criticism should be made of Joe's FTA attempts. He's not above any criticism especially after his "I'm off this sh**t" stretch of pathetic effort but he gets the benefit of the doubt because he actually has been our most consistent player for the last two years and single handedly won us a playoff series. If Lopez actually played consistent basketball and outplayed Noah in the postseason, more fans would be a little bit more understanding.

But it doesn't even really matter. They all need to go and I'm on the verge of rooting for this team to bottom out. Maybe that will wake up our airheaded front office and ownership.

I'm going to jump on this too, but not because of his performance tonight. I didn't watch the game lol.

However, one thing I don't like is how people will pick certain players to rip the overwhelming majority of the time, but also have certain players that cannot be criticized at all no matter what they do.

At this point in time, JJ is the last of the big 3 that should go IMO but he's far from a perfect player.

It's interesting that some people say that you can't criticize JJ for the contract (because he didn't give himself the contract), his inability to draw FTs (even though that's a huge part of playoff success especially in a wing driven league), and his passivity.

People criticized me for not having as much as hate for D-Will as others believed I should but when it comes to JJ, he's the golden goose, the paragon of a perfect basketball player, the best thing ever. It's simply not true.

He's one of the players that is least deserving of criticism at this moment, but that is not the same as being above criticism at all times. People need to stop being biased and own up to the preferential treatment. People can at least take you seriously when the bias just oozes out in posts.

[therealbig3]

JJ is still a heavily ball dominant player that likes to ISO a lot...he disappears for long stretches or even entire games...he doesn't draw a lot of FTA...and although he's an above average defender, he's also pretty slow for a wing and can get abused by certain matchups.

This guy is not an MVP-caliber player like he gets propped up as, and he's not an All-Star caliber player either. His selection last year was pretty unwarranted.

I agree, he doesn't get called out enough. I don't think he's been our best player this year...imo, as disappointing as he's been, that's still Deron.

[Paradise]

After thinking about it and seeing where we are headed, I'd rather not look to dump Lopez right now.

The first dominoes should be Deron, Joe and even KG. Slim chance we get any respectable offers for them but Deron/Joe contract situation and age are a far bigger detriment to the team than Lopez.

Atleast, Plumlee/Lopez are showing some signs of being able to work together. We also have to consider what type of team we will have next season without KG and most likely without Mirza.

[kerry kittles]

After thinking about it and seeing where we are headed, I'd rather not look to dump Lopez right now.

The first dominoes should be Deron, Joe and even KG. Slim chance we get any respectable offers for them but Deron/Joe contract situation and age are a far bigger detriment to the team than Lopez.

Atleast, Plumlee/Lopez are showing some signs of being able to work together. We also have to consider what type of team we will have next season without KG and most likely without Mirza.

Deron is the biggest detriment to this team's success. He's the worst contract in the league and limits the team's opportunities in 2016. Out of all the players on this team he'd be the first I'd like to move. I'd take the Kings offer, but their owner is the Dolan of the west coast, who else would want him? Theres about 15 point guards in the league better than him, he's 30, he's got 2 more years to go after that making max money. There are a number of top point guards out producing him making less than half what he makes. It's not really realistic that we move him and if he did we'd have to attach assets - at a minimum Plumlee which makes it not worth it. Just stretch him in 2016.

Brook has higher value that Joe. He makes $8 million less and is 8 years younger. It's a lot easier to move Brook. How realistic is it to get $24 in contracts that expire before 2016 for Joe? There's a very limited and specific market for Joe. No rebuilding team wants a 33 year old player making $24 million. So then you have to find a playoff team that wants him, that won't send us contracts that extend past 2016, and makes it work financially. When you add all that up it becomes tough.

Brook is 26, he has injury concerns, and a more cap friendly deal than our other 2 big 3. He still isn't worth his contract, but if you look at our big 3. He would garner the most attention from other teams. We are also deepest at center - more able to sustain his loss. We are weak at all other positions - namely on the wing with our soft euros you called out of this game thread. In addition to finding a limited home for Joe we'd need back wing players that can contribute or it would make us worse. We can move Brook and not receive a center back and be fine. Example: Lance + Marvin Williams spells less time for our soft euros.

At the end of the day the team needs to clean house from top to bottom. Top - meaning King and filtering out to the bottom. There needs to be a complete overhaul and culture change. I don't want Brook here past 2016 and think its best to look to sell now, while he's healthy, and his value is higher than it would be if he gets hurt again. Plumlee is the only guy I want here past 2016. Maybe Karasev since he's essentially a rookie. Depends on how he looks coming into camp. If he doesn't hit the weight room hard, start taking the sport more seriously he can kick rocks too. I want everyone gone; but Brook makes the most sense.

[MrDollarBills]

Didn't even watch this garbage. This team is headed towards the lottery and I hope that becomes the catalyst for King's firing.

[kerry kittles]

JJ is still a heavily ball dominant player that likes to ISO a lot...he disappears for long stretches or even entire games...he doesn't draw a lot of FTA...and although he's an above average defender, he's also pretty slow for a wing and can get abused by certain matchups.

This guy is not an MVP-caliber player like he gets propped up as, and he's not an All-Star caliber player either. His selection last year was pretty unwarranted.

I agree, he doesn't get called out enough. I don't think he's been our best player this year...imo, as disappointing as he's been, that's still Deron.

He's MVP of this team by default. Yes, he's not consistent, yes he's doesn't draw enough fouls, but this whole damn roster is disappointing.

Joe has the best on/off numbers on the team.
ortg/drtg with Joe on the court: 102.5, 102.4 with Joe off the court 93.0, 102.7
ortg/drtg with Deron on the court: 101.8, 102.8 with Deron off the court 96.8, 102.1

Our offense is at it's worst when ISO-Joe sits so ISO-Joe isn't hurt the offense. He's helping it. Is Joe Jesus suppose to turn water into wine? We're seeing more ISO-Joe because guys like Teletovic, Bogdanovic, Karasev, Anderson - 2/4 guys sharing the court with Joe aren't good offensive players. We're a terrible 3 pointing shooting team, lack floor balance, and good players. As an aside there's people elsewhere that think there'd be a Josh effect if we move Joe despite our offense being worse when he sits by a wide margin. Our ortg is 2nd lowest when Deron sits.

Looking at raw numbers:
Joe: 16.7 ppg, on 53.7 TS%, 4.7 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.1 TO, 15.3 PER
Deron: 16.1 ppg on 52.7 TS%, 3.0 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.3 TO, 16.8 PER

Factor in that Joe has played more than Deron and it has to be Joe.

[Keith Van Horn]

There are so many flaws with this team, honestly it's hard to say which things are the worst.

But there's something that HAS TO happen at the end of this season at the very latest, and that's firing Billy King and getting a new fresh perspective in here to run our operations.

I just hope Deron comes back and plays decent enough basketball to get his value up. Jack, as up and down as he is, is not a starter but a 6th man energy spark off the bench.

We need a new GM, a new starting caliber PG, and a new starting caliber PF.

[kerry kittles]

There are so many flaws with this team, honestly it's hard to say which things are the worst.

But there's something that HAS TO happen at the end of this season at the very latest, and that's firing Billy King and getting a new fresh perspective in here to run our operations.

I just hope Deron comes back and plays decent enough basketball to get his value up. Jack, as up and down as he is, is not a starter but a 6th man energy spark off the bench.

We need a new GM, a new starting caliber PG, and a new starting caliber PF.

Agreed when an organization continually fails to live up to expectations and has such a bleak outlook you replace the CEO, the guy at the top, not some low level guy.

We need a fresh outlook, perspective. Someone needs to guide this team in 2016 and beyond. That summer represents our best chance to change the culture of the organization, get better players, better results. I'm not confident in King to lead us there and beyond.

[MrDollarBills]

Yeah see people kick Jack's back in and rightfully so but the idea was that Deron was supposed to be competent enough to start and lead this team, and Jack was to be the 6th man not the starter where his game gets exposed. That's on King, and on Williams who has proven to be a poor investment.

We need a starting SG, PF, and a new GM.

I would also say that we need to develop the hell out of these guys we have now. Bogdanovic I am done with but Plumlee, Karasev, Brown, Morris, and Jefferson are guys that we can try to mold.

[MrDollarBills]

There are so many flaws with this team, honestly it's hard to say which things are the worst.

But there's something that HAS TO happen at the end of this season at the very latest, and that's firing Billy King and getting a new fresh perspective in here to run our operations.

I just hope Deron comes back and plays decent enough basketball to get his value up. Jack, as up and down as he is, is not a starter but a 6th man energy spark off the bench.

We need a new GM, a new starting caliber PG, and a new starting caliber PF.

Agreed when an organization continually fails to live up to expectations and has such a bleak outlook you replace the CEO, the guy at the top, not some low level guy.

We need a fresh outlook, perspective. Someone needs to guide this team in 2016 and beyond. That summer represents our best chance to change the culture of the organization, get better players, better results. I'm not confident in King to lead us there and beyond.

I fire King after this season to give the guy who replaces him a full offseason and season before the 2016 summer to get his vision for a winning roster and culture in place.