Clips/Nets PG: Jarrett Jesus!

[MGrand15]

Stop it. Our starters are Jack/AA/Joe/Mason/Lopez. Deron can EASILY play PG in that lineup. Or depending on matchups, throw Bogs in for one of the wings. No excuse for Deron to only play next to Jack or Morris. Small stretches - okay I understand. But really? All of his minutes are at SG? Even though he's our best playmaker and PG by a laughably large margin.

no, bogs is NOT a better option then jack... you dont want bogs on the floor if you can help it. especially on the road. Anderson is a good role player, but he isnt a guy you want playing 30-35 minutes a game, and he also needs to spell joe at times.

He isnt our best playmaker. jack with all his flaws gets into the lane more and collapses defenses more. even if you do give it to williams, it isnt by much. Jack has 33 assists in the last 3 games. he 1 less 20/8 games this year then dwill had this year and last year combined.

I'm not saying jack is some star, but he can get in the lane better then anyone on this team. and williams is our only reliable 3 point threat other then joe. pairing them together is our best option.

Anderson and bogs arent great options next to williams, and they are both insanely inconsistent. I love anderson, but he isnt a 30+ mpg player and if you make him one joe gets no rest.

So your solution is to ALWAYS play Deron Williams - our best PG - next to another PG? I'm not saying to NEVER play Jack and Deron together. But Deron should be the lone PG at times.

[MGrand15]

The Morris argument is ridiculous because the team sucked with Jack on the floor and was great with Deron on the floor.

The argument would be legit if we were good with Jack on the floor and Deron came in and lifted the 2nd unit. That's not what happened.

It's even more ridiculous because Morris ended up playing with Deron. The truth is Deron is a sizable upgrade from any guard we have and his mere presence turns us into a respectable team. He's not great and yet that's still true.

Why are you using a 1 game sample size?

how did we look vs the raptors with jack on the floor vs with morris on the floor? vs the hawks?

Morris has been REALLY bad. if you dont think replacing morris with an average level PG makes a huge difference i dont know what to tell you. I also dont know what to tell you if you think a 15 point 3 assist 4 turnover game is some elite performance.

Deron is sizeable upgrade from morris. he is not a sizeable upgrade from jack. jack has played as well as a starter as dwill has. not having a backup PG was the bigger issue

Deron's lineup numbers vs Jack's lineup numbers are STAGGERINGLY different. Jack's raw numbers might be okay but his impact on the floor is a SIZABLE downgrade from Deron.

I used a 1 game sample size because F3LON was using a 1 game sample size. We were talking about the Clipper game.

Deron's performance wasn't elite. I've said this over and over. But Jack isn't really a true PG and the offense doesn't run well when he's on the floor. Deron can simply be good or average and still help the team a lot more than Jack.

Last time I'll say it. Deron's TOP TEN 5-man lineups: 7 of them are positive. Only 3 are negative. The 3 where he plays alongside Jack.

[Prokorov]

Stop it. Our starters are Jack/AA/Joe/Mason/Lopez. Deron can EASILY play PG in that lineup. Or depending on matchups, throw Bogs in for one of the wings. No excuse for Deron to only play next to Jack or Morris. Small stretches - okay I understand. But really? All of his minutes are at SG? Even though he's our best playmaker and PG by a laughably large margin.

no, bogs is NOT a better option then jack... you dont want bogs on the floor if you can help it. especially on the road. Anderson is a good role player, but he isnt a guy you want playing 30-35 minutes a game, and he also needs to spell joe at times.

He isnt our best playmaker. jack with all his flaws gets into the lane more and collapses defenses more. even if you do give it to williams, it isnt by much. Jack has 33 assists in the last 3 games. he 1 less 20/8 games this year then dwill had this year and last year combined.

I'm not saying jack is some star, but he can get in the lane better then anyone on this team. and williams is our only reliable 3 point threat other then joe. pairing them together is our best option.

Anderson and bogs arent great options next to williams, and they are both insanely inconsistent. I love anderson, but he isnt a 30+ mpg player and if you make him one joe gets no rest.

So your solution is to ALWAYS play Deron Williams - our best PG - next to another PG? I'm not saying to NEVER play Jack and Deron together. But Deron should be the lone PG at times.

I'd play dwill 30-32 minutes off the bench
I'd start jack and play him 30-36 minutes

id have them playing like 25-28 minutes together.

its out best pairing, our 2 best playmakers and you give jack someone on the wing who can knock down a three to really help open the lanes for him.

I also think Dwill at this point is at his best as someone who can just come in and be super aggressive trying to score. we really need that on the wing and bogs/karase/anderson/brown cant provide that.

is dwill better as a PG then a SG? yes. but dwill is also a MUCH better SG then bogs/karasev/anderson. We have someone (jack) who can play PG. we really dont have a SG right now

[Prokorov]

Deron's lineup numbers vs Jack's lineup numbers are STAGGERINGLY different. Jack's raw numbers might be okay but his impact on the floor is a SIZABLE downgrade from Deron.

I used a 1 game sample size because F3LON was using a 1 game sample size. We were talking about the Clipper game.

I disagree completely. i think jacks impact goes beyond his numbers... he gets in the lane a TON. its been huge for us and especially for plumlee. saying he is a sizeable downgrade to deron really has no basis. Deron even if he is better, its marginally at this point. the 20/8 deron of 2-3 years ago would be sizably better. the 14/6 deron who is extremely inconsistent certainly is not.

And using a horrible 1 game sample because someone else made the same mistake is really a bad excuse for it. either way, 1 game samples are pretty useless

Deron's performance wasn't elite. I've said this over and over. But Jack isn't really a true PG and the offense doesn't run well when he's on the floor. Deron can simply be good or average and still help the team a lot more than Jack.

Last time I'll say it. Deron's TOP TEN 5-man lineups: 7 of them are positive. Only 3 are negative. The 3 where he plays alongside Jack.

again, small sample.

the 7 positive lineups deron plays with account for less then 1/3 of his minutes. the lineups he plays with jack account for over 2/3 of his minutes. if you benched jack and made dwill play next to morris or bogs all the time, im sure those would eventually turn into negative +/- as well. alot of derons positive +/- lineups are with bench units vs bench units.

[Prokorov]

Again.... it all comes down to this:

WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE?

Which of the following do you want playing 20-25 minutes that jack currently plays with dwill?

Bogdanovic (been really bad, especially on the road)
Brown (D-leaguer has no business playing huge minutes)
Karasev (see bogdnaovic)
Anderson (would need to play 35-40 minutes to do that and backup joe)

the awnser is none of them... which is why most of us want a trade to happen ASAP. because we dont have a starting calibur SG on this roster. You can get away with anderson when you have plenty of other scoring and outside shooting on the floor (which is why it worked last year with pierce) but he isnt consistent or good enough to make that an every game/30 mpg thing.

Jack/Dwill combo is lesser of all evils

[MrDollarBills]

Alan Anderson needs to keep that starting SG spot. He has better composure than Bogdanovic/Karasev and is the superior defender.

Anderson at least gives a damn and gets his hands dirty on D. Prokhorov's pets Karasev and Bogs need to be glued to the bench.

You didnt watch the game? I thought I saw some encouraging signs from Bogdanovic last night and few games before aswell. He is being more assertive on the offensive end, taking some of the ball handling duties and has dished out very nice passes. More similar to the Bogdanovic we could see in europe. Also If im not mistaken he had a stretch last night in the end of 3rd and start of 4th quarter where he hit 3 three-pointers in quite short period of time, keeping us in it.
For sure he is not on the level that is needed yet, but progress is good. And he did share the court a lot with Andreson aswell.

No, I only caught the tail end on the radio on my way home from a business meeting. I'm just down on him and Karasev in general.

[MGrand15]

Deron's lineup numbers vs Jack's lineup numbers are STAGGERINGLY different. Jack's raw numbers might be okay but his impact on the floor is a SIZABLE downgrade from Deron.

I used a 1 game sample size because F3LON was using a 1 game sample size. We were talking about the Clipper game.

I disagree completely. i think jacks impact goes beyond his numbers... he gets in the lane a TON. its been huge for us and especially for plumlee. saying he is a sizeable downgrade to deron really has no basis. Deron even if he is better, its marginally at this point. the 20/8 deron of 2-3 years ago would be sizably better. the 14/6 deron who is extremely inconsistent certainly is not.

And using a horrible 1 game sample because someone else made the same mistake is really a bad excuse for it. either way, 1 game samples are pretty useless

Deron's performance wasn't elite. I've said this over and over. But Jack isn't really a true PG and the offense doesn't run well when he's on the floor. Deron can simply be good or average and still help the team a lot more than Jack.

Last time I'll say it. Deron's TOP TEN 5-man lineups: 7 of them are positive. Only 3 are negative. The 3 where he plays alongside Jack.

again, small sample.

the 7 positive lineups deron plays with account for less then 1/3 of his minutes. the lineups he plays with jack account for over 2/3 of his minutes. if you benched jack and made dwill play next to morris or bogs all the time, im sure those would eventually turn into negative +/- as well. alot of derons positive +/- lineups are with bench units vs bench units.

For a guy who gets in the lane A TON - he sure takes a ton of jump shots and doesn't get to the line at all. Deron gets to the line more than he does

Look. Jack is a tough guy who says the right thing and leaves it all on the floor. That's awesome. I could see why a fan would like that. The reality is he's a 50% TS guy who takes over the offense 80% of the time he's in the game. When Jack is in the game, there's no Joe post ups, or Brook post ups, or any flex action. Jack is running PNRs until Jack can find some space to launch a contested mid-range shot or a floater. Sometimes he'll find the balance of scoring and finding Plumlee as the roll man. More often than not - he's not finding the balance.

You know more than anyone that a mid-range shot should be the last option in an NBA offense. Even though he's shooting a solid 42% from there - that's only 2% better than the shot you KILL Lopez for taking. That's all he does though. It's literally 48% of his offense.

We'll see how Hollins moves forward. I personally hope Jack can keep it up while assuming a bench role.

For the record - Deron's played 180 minutes with Bojan/Joe/KG/Lopez. Not a HUGE sample size but pretty good at this stage in the season. They're a +3.3 per 100 possessions. It seems that Deron plays fine with Bogs AND against other starters.

[Prokorov]

For a guy who gets in the lane A TON - he sure takes a ton of jump shots and doesn't get to the line at all. Deron gets to the line more than he does

Getting in the lane isnt just about FTs, especially for a PG. its about collapsing the defense and setting up teammates. Which show in jacks assist numbers (which would be even higher if he had guys on the wings who could hit their wide open 3s). The fact that dwill gets to the line more and could provide 3 point shooting on the wing are all the more reason to play him off ball as a scorer.

Look. Jack is a tough guy who says the right thing and leaves it all on the floor. That's awesome. I could see why a fan would like that. The reality is he's a 50% TS guy who takes over the offense 80% of the time he's in the game. When Jack is in the game, there's no Joe post ups, or Brook post ups, or any flex action. Jack is running PNRs until Jack can find some space to launch a contested mid-range shot or a floater. Sometimes he'll find the balance of scoring and finding Plumlee as the roll man. More often than not - he's not finding the balance.

the same is true for williams. go back and look at how equally putrid our offense was earlier in the year when dwill was our starting PG. it wasnt any better, and we had the same issues - couldnt hit open 3's. we had more joe post ups which helped, but we also had nothing by way of getting in the paint and finding teammates for easy buckets.

You know more than anyone that a mid-range shot should be the last option in an NBA offense. Even though he's shooting a solid 42% from there - that's only 2% better than the shot you KILL Lopez for taking. That's all he does though. It's literally 48% of his offense.

Jack does take a ton of long 2's. you know who else takes a ton of long 2's? Deron Willaims

24.9% of williams shots are long 2's williams shoots them at 34.4%

28.3% of jacks shots are long 2's Jack shoots them at 44.7%

I never said jack didnt have his flaws. I agree he shouldnt be shooting as many long 2's as he does. but he is still the better option getting in the lane and breaking down defenses. and wiliams is infinetly the better options as a wing 3 point shooter. reversing those roles and not playing to those strengths makes little sense.

For the record - Deron's played 180 minutes with Bojan/Joe/KG/Lopez. Not a HUGE sample size but pretty good at this stage in the season. They're a +3.3 per 100 possessions. It seems that Deron plays fine with Bogs AND against other starters.

it is too small a sample, with too great a split when you look at it home/road. and Bogdanovics play overall hasnt justified he be on the court at all, let alone who its with.

[F3LON]

I don't mind having jack and Deron on the floor at times,but we need another Pg. Also Jack should play the off guard spot IMO.

We should look into trying to flip Karasev for another pg.


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Why do you prefer jack at the off gaurd spot? he doesnt shoot it well from 3 and his numbers as a catch and shoot player are pretty bad (his pull up shooting #'son the other hand are outstanding). He also gets in the paint as well/better then anyone we have.

Williams is actually a pretty good catch and shoot player, excellent 3 point shooter and can even work in the post some. im not saying take the ball out of dwills hand completely, but he is the better off ball option

^THIS

Jack has to be the ball handler because he isnt good off the ball. It's why he is ideally suited to be a 6th man. When he plays with DWill he has to be the ballhandler so that he is a threat.

At this point I would rather have DWill play off the ball because he is more of a threat. He doesnt attack with his dribble anymore so I would rather him run off screens and spot up since he is the best wing shooter on the team.

[Dirk]

Thank you for beating the Clippers. Unreal finish to the game. Hope the Nets find some sort of consistency and make the playoffs.

[Zachbretton]

Thank you for beating the Clippers. Unreal finish to the game. Hope the Nets find some sort of consistency and make the playoffs.

It was unreal watching it, I had counted the game lost. Thanks for the kind words for our team, I hope Rondo gets well soon, he's always got a soft spot in my heart

[MGrand15]

Never thought I'd see the day where a PG that doesn't pass, doesn't take open 3s, doesn't get to the FT line and doesn't defend would get treated like royalty. Made 2 huge plays at the end but he needs to go back to the 2nd unit. Badly. Last post I'm making about the guy. New, strict policy of only talking about players that have a TS% of over 51 or defend at a high level.

[F3LON]

Stop it. Our starters are Jack/AA/Joe/Mason/Lopez. Deron can EASILY play PG in that lineup. Or depending on matchups, throw Bogs in for one of the wings. No excuse for Deron to only play next to Jack or Morris. Small stretches - okay I understand. But really? All of his minutes are at SG? Even though he's our best playmaker and PG by a laughably large margin.

no, bogs is NOT a better option then jack... you dont want bogs on the floor if you can help it. especially on the road. Anderson is a good role player, but he isnt a guy you want playing 30-35 minutes a game, and he also needs to spell joe at times.

He isnt our best playmaker. jack with all his flaws gets into the lane more and collapses defenses more. even if you do give it to williams, it isnt by much. Jack has 33 assists in the last 3 games. he 1 less 20/8 games this year then dwill had this year and last year combined.

I'm not saying jack is some star, but he can get in the lane better then anyone on this team. and williams is our only reliable 3 point threat other then joe. pairing them together is our best option.

Anderson and bogs arent great options next to williams, and they are both insanely inconsistent. I love anderson, but he isnt a 30+ mpg player and if you make him one joe gets no rest.

So your solution is to ALWAYS play Deron Williams - our best PG - next to another PG? I'm not saying to NEVER play Jack and Deron together. But Deron should be the lone PG at times.

With this roster you are forced to. What are our options at SG? Bogs, Karasev and Brown shouldnt even get backup minutes on a good team. Anderson is good in short burst but shouldnt be starting. That leaves DWIll. He is the only player on the team who can run through screens and be a threat off the ball ala Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton. Joe takes to long to wind up for his shot so he can only be a stationary catch and shoot player without the ball. This is what changed the team last year. Livingston handled the ball while DWill cut off the ball. Since we are going with two bigs in the frontcourt, we would be wise to utilize their size on off the ball picks. If teams switch then you get a mismatch with either Lopez or Plumlee on a guard.

[Dirk]

Thank you for beating the Clippers. Unreal finish to the game. Hope the Nets find some sort of consistency and make the playoffs.

It was unreal watching it, I had counted the game lost. Thanks for the kind words for our team, I hope Rondo gets well soon, he's always got a soft spot in my heart

My favorite sequence(besides the 4pt play) was Joe Johnson missing two three throws, Lopez grabbing the offensive rebound and immediately after Johnson hitting a three from the parking lot. Ian Eagle is great, I love how he calls these plays. The colour guys are pretty good too, usually mixing in humour with good insight. You've been blessed all these years.

I used to watch a lot of Nets games back when you had Krstic, Nachbar. Or better said Carter and Kidd. Enjoyed the rivalry with Toronto back then. My interest faded as the team went into rebuilding(I had a brief thing for Marshon Brooks but he disappeared off the place of the earth quickly). Interest completed died with the trade for Deron and then the Brooklyn move. You had established names and you were now a brand, trendy and I've always been a guy with a thing for underdog markets/teams/players. It's kind of my relationship with the Raptors - I also watched them a few years back and now they have all this Drake stuff and it really turns me off and it made me root against them even.

I have a curiosity on the topic of old NJN vs BKN, the Nets fanbase, if you or someone else can answer a bit on it. Has it transferred well from the New Jersey days? Has there been a noticeably increase in fans, true fans I mean? At times, Nets games feel weird and I guess it's a downside of New York, because it feels like there are a lot of casuals and tourists at games. But it's hard to judge, because the Nets almost feel like a bunch of mercenaries out there playing terrible basketball. With so many coaches now and the example of the Knicks, it almost feels like it's a city thing. Even the front offices resemble each other with Thomas/king.

The Nets have no other option other than compete this year and it would make the playoffs more interesting if you were in them. A re-match with the Raptors in particular would be fun.

Rondo's introduction to the Mavs has been a bit rough to say the least. He has provided an upgrade on the defensive side, but there hasn't been much to be excited. The offense has not been as good and the trade hurt our bench badly. Brandan Wright provided really instant and easy offense with the threat of lobs keeping defenses on the edge, now it's pretty hard to watch. The Mavs are a work in progress. In the end, I believe this team is better geared for the playoffs than the team before that trade, but Rondo will have to improve quite a bit for the Mavs to really be taken seriously. But hey, that's what he is known for, showing up in the playoffs. We'll see if he proves he still has it then or if he is just a 'name' now. He is an unrestricted free agent at the end of the season.

[MrDollarBills]

I don't mind having jack and Deron on the floor at times,but we need another Pg. Also Jack should play the off guard spot IMO.

We should look into trying to flip Karasev for another pg.


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Why do you prefer jack at the off gaurd spot? he doesnt shoot it well from 3 and his numbers as a catch and shoot player are pretty bad (his pull up shooting #'son the other hand are outstanding). He also gets in the paint as well/better then anyone we have.

Williams is actually a pretty good catch and shoot player, excellent 3 point shooter and can even work in the post some. im not saying take the ball out of dwills hand completely, but he is the better off ball option

^THIS

Jack has to be the ball handler because he isnt good off the ball. It's why he is ideally suited to be a 6th man. When he plays with DWill he has to be the ballhandler so that he is a threat.

At this point I would rather have DWill play off the ball because he is more of a threat. He doesnt attack with his dribble anymore so I would rather him run off screens and spot up since he is the best wing shooter on the team.

Yeah. Playing D-Will at the two is a no brainer. Defensively it will be rough at times but this team needs more offense on the perimeter.

[kerry kittles]

Anderson at least gives a damn and gets his hands dirty on D. Prokhorov's pets Karasev and Bogs need to be glued to the bench.

You didnt watch the game? I thought I saw some encouraging signs from Bogdanovic last night and few games before aswell. He is being more assertive on the offensive end, taking some of the ball handling duties and has dished out very nice passes. More similar to the Bogdanovic we could see in europe. Also If im not mistaken he had a stretch last night in the end of 3rd and start of 4th quarter where he hit 3 three-pointers in quite short period of time, keeping us in it.
For sure he is not on the level that is needed yet, but progress is good. And he did share the court a lot with Andreson aswell.

I want him to assert himself, but I want him to recognize what are good shots and what are bad shots. He took a couple of questionable three pointers in the fourth quarter that really hurt the team. If he's wide open in the corners then I want him to take the shot every single time... just don't have that same philosophy shooting it from 25 feet away with 15 seconds left on the shot clock.

Agreed he had a couple 3's from the top of the key early in the shotclock that were simply bad shots in the 4th when the Clippers opened it up drop a tied game to a double digit lead. It's not shots that a 30% 3 point shooter should be taking. Work the clock, get into your sets, get a better look. Those were shoots he could get at any point and we could've got better looks.

Crawford was making a concerted effort to take it at Bogs as well. He broke his ankles on one a step back then blew by him the following possession.

[Keith Van Horn]

I don't mind having jack and Deron on the floor at times,but we need another Pg. Also Jack should play the off guard spot IMO.

We should look into trying to flip Karasev for another pg.


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Why do you prefer jack at the off gaurd spot? he doesnt shoot it well from 3 and his numbers as a catch and shoot player are pretty bad (his pull up shooting #'son the other hand are outstanding). He also gets in the paint as well/better then anyone we have.

Williams is actually a pretty good catch and shoot player, excellent 3 point shooter and can even work in the post some. im not saying take the ball out of dwills hand completely, but he is the better off ball option

Deron is the superior ball handler and passer.

I'm not saying Jack would be a great SG, it's just that Deron is a better PG so he should play that.

If we want to run these dual PG lineups, then we really need to get another PG or get a SG that is worth a damn. Deron does play decent SG, but he shouldn't b/c he's much better suited at the point. We are just god awful at SG right now.

[lkitt0804]

I don't mind having jack and Deron on the floor at times,but we need another Pg. Also Jack should play the off guard spot IMO.

We should look into trying to flip Karasev for another pg.


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Why do you prefer jack at the off gaurd spot? he doesnt shoot it well from 3 and his numbers as a catch and shoot player are pretty bad (his pull up shooting #'son the other hand are outstanding). He also gets in the paint as well/better then anyone we have.

Williams is actually a pretty good catch and shoot player, excellent 3 point shooter and can even work in the post some. im not saying take the ball out of dwills hand completely, but he is the better off ball option

Deron is the superior ball handler and passer.

I'm not saying Jack would be a great SG, it's just that Deron is a better PG so he should play that.

If we want to run these dual PG lineups, then we really need to get another PG or get a SG that is worth a damn. Deron does play decent SG, but he shouldn't b/c he's much better suited at the point. We are just god awful at SG right now.

The problem with playing Deron and Jack together for long periods is that we get exposed defensively. We need a 2/3 pretty bad.




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