Nets/LAL PG: The Big 3 Dominates

[MGrand15]

If you want to keep Deron on the bench and play Jack as much as possible for cultural reasons - I think it's a really bad message to send. Rewarding selfishness and losing basketball because they're tough and have heart is stupid. I'm sure everyone who's standing around and watching Jack dribble the air out of the ball to take a contested mid-range jumper agrees. Don't see any benefit in rewarding selfishness, bad basketball IQ, and poor defense.

Jack is not a selfish player... and as a starter his usage/assists are pretty much identical to williams. you say "jack dribbles the air out of the ball and shoots mid rangejumpers". well what exactly does dwill do?

williams 25% of his shots from 16 to 20 feet... jack shoots more jumpers(28%), but it isnt like dwill isnt taking a ton himself.

And i think that playing someone who shows low effort just because he is more skilled is also a bad message to send.

Also... im not gung-ho about jack continuing to start. im fine if dwill starts again. we need wins and jack starting hasnt been working and we have a chance to go big with thad here. my whole stance here is that we havent been good with dwill starting. people need to stop comparing dwill to jack and start comparing him to real standards/... being better then jack doesnt matter if the result is still bad offense and losses

Especially odd that most people were fine with Deron's effort until he got hurt. He was inefficient and off but the effort was there. After that, people have gone through this revision of history that Deron was dogging it out there. Same dude that played with a misdiagnosed fractured rib.

whaaaat? I think you need to revist the threads from since he got here. he got crushed early and often. there were always people on both sides of the fence with him, but he got trashed early(especially by E) since day 1

1. I'm talking about this year. Even the biggest of haters with fine with his effort this year early on. It wasn't until his injury that everything flipped. He was bad but he was being aggressive.

2. Usage/assists don't measure ball movement, how willing you are to pass, how often you pass, how you run the offense. You know this. Jack is absolutely a selfish player.

[Prokorov]

Morris is completely out of the equation dude.

Deron 34 minutes Jack 14 minutes
AA 24 minutes Bogs 18 minutes Brown 6 minutes
JJ 34 minutes Bogs 8 minutes AA 6 minutes
Thad 32 minutes - depending on matchups - JJ's an option. Bojan's an option. Plumlee. CJ.
Plumlee - Lopez - Jordan depending on how they're playing



I never said morris was in the equation. re-read it. i said the alternative to less jack/dwill was more Karasev, bogs, morris, or brown. i didnt say more all of them, but one of them gets an increase.

in your solution you give brown 6 minutes a night, you give bogs 6 more minutes a night and you given anderson 8 more minutes a night...

Don't really see the problem with this. Slight adjustments depending on how guys are playing and matchups. Would not mind AA playing 28-30 minutes. Would not mind Bojan playing 24-28 minutes. If we go small, then maybe Jack can play with Deron. Or if Jack is hot, he can play more. We can limit AA a bit and play Jack a couple of minutes next to Deron. Doesn't mean we have to play 20 minutes a game with both of them.

There isnt a problem with it, because there is no good awnser. any solution is gonna have some big flaws. Here are things id point out though id be concerned with:

1) is bogs at 25+ minutes a night still a net 0, or is he going negative with more minutes. when he was starting earlier in the year, he became a negative

2) Dwill playing 34 minutes a night. he hasnt done that in 3 years. but i think we should ignore that since you can just give jack 2 more minutes and this solves this.

3) Brown 6 minutes a night. thats barely anything. i question how effective a rookie is gonna be in 6 minutes a night. that is hard to get a rhythm even for veteran players. a rookie i dont know. even with rhythm, brown is an unkown and a dice roll to be better with anyone then jack is

4) Anderson going 30 minutes a night. i trust him getting more minutes then i do bogs, but you are still asking a role player to give you 30+ minutes when he isnt accustomed to it. Anderson has never played more then 23 minutes, the one year he did he had by far his worst season.

Again, im not knocking your plan here... it could work just as well or better. i just see just as many issues with it as what we have now. we still are overplaying role players. we still have an issue with shooting. we give a ton more time to rookies which likely has some bumps and bruises and issues with poor shots and turnovers.

i dont see any solution that is much better then what we have been doing that doesnt include brining in a SG

[Prokorov]

If you want to keep Deron on the bench and play Jack as much as possible for cultural reasons - I think it's a really bad message to send. Rewarding selfishness and losing basketball because they're tough and have heart is stupid. I'm sure everyone who's standing around and watching Jack dribble the air out of the ball to take a contested mid-range jumper agrees. Don't see any benefit in rewarding selfishness, bad basketball IQ, and poor defense.

Jack is not a selfish player... and as a starter his usage/assists are pretty much identical to williams. you say "jack dribbles the air out of the ball and shoots mid rangejumpers". well what exactly does dwill do?

williams 25% of his shots from 16 to 20 feet... jack shoots more jumpers(28%), but it isnt like dwill isnt taking a ton himself.

And i think that playing someone who shows low effort just because he is more skilled is also a bad message to send.

Also... im not gung-ho about jack continuing to start. im fine if dwill starts again. we need wins and jack starting hasnt been working and we have a chance to go big with thad here. my whole stance here is that we havent been good with dwill starting. people need to stop comparing dwill to jack and start comparing him to real standards/... being better then jack doesnt matter if the result is still bad offense and losses

Especially odd that most people were fine with Deron's effort until he got hurt. He was inefficient and off but the effort was there. After that, people have gone through this revision of history that Deron was dogging it out there. Same dude that played with a misdiagnosed fractured rib.

whaaaat? I think you need to revist the threads from since he got here. he got crushed early and often. there were always people on both sides of the fence with him, but he got trashed early(especially by E) since day 1

1. I'm talking about this year. Even the biggest of haters with fine with his effort this year early on. It wasn't until his injury that everything flipped. He was bad but he was being aggressive.

2. Usage/assists don't measure ball movement, how willing you are to pass, how often you pass, how you run the offense. You know this. Jack is absolutely a selfish player.

actually, that is what they measure. specifically usage.

[MGrand15]

Usage and assists measure how many possessions a player is "ending". A shot, a FT, an assist, a TO. If Deron has a hockey assist, it's not measured in usage or assist. If he passes it and ends up getting it back, that's not measured anywhere. If he calls a play for Joe Johnson, that's not measured anywhere.

[Prokorov]

1. I'm talking about this year. Even the biggest of haters with fine with his effort this year early on. It wasn't until his injury that everything flipped. He was bad but he was being aggressive.

absolutely not... even his own teammate(joe johnson) wasnt happy with the effort.

MDB, F3lon, Me, tb3 all were on him early on.

even when he won players of the week i got no his case. other then the knicks game he had i though he could play harder. his effort only picked up once he went to the bench

[Prokorov]

Usage and assists measure how many possessions a player is "ending". A shot, a FT, an assist, a TO. If Deron has a hockey assist, it's not measured in usage or assist. If he passes it and ends up getting it back, that's not measured anywhere. If he calls a play for Joe Johnson, that's not measured anywhere.

and if a play isnt ending with an assist, and isnt ending with a shot, what is it ending with?

because jack and dwill have the same percentage in that regard. maybe dwills passes to the post are different then jacks passes into the post or something.

[lkitt0804]

1. I'm talking about this year. Even the biggest of haters with fine with his effort this year early on. It wasn't until his injury that everything flipped. He was bad but he was being aggressive.

absolutely not... even his own teammate(joe johnson) wasnt happy with the effort.

MDB, F3lon, Me, tb3 all were on him early on.

even when he won players of the week i got no his case. other then the knicks game he had i though he could play harder. his effort only picked up once he went to the bench

Can you please provide a link where Joe wasn't happy with Deron's effort? I tried googling for it and I appoligize but didn't find anything about that.

MDB said he wasn't going to criticize Deron's effort as late as mid December. It was a strange moment because I was thinking Deron was playing horrible and MDB was sticking up for him.


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[Prokorov]

1. I'm talking about this year. Even the biggest of haters with fine with his effort this year early on. It wasn't until his injury that everything flipped. He was bad but he was being aggressive.

absolutely not... even his own teammate(joe johnson) wasnt happy with the effort.

MDB, F3lon, Me, tb3 all were on him early on.

even when he won players of the week i got no his case. other then the knicks game he had i though he could play harder. his effort only picked up once he went to the bench

Can you please provide a link where Joe wasn't happy with Deron's effort? I tried googling for it and I appoligize but didn't find anything about that.

MDB said he wasn't going to criticize Deron's effort as late as mid December. It was a strange moment because I was thinking Deron was playing horrible and MDB was sticking up for him.


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you couldnt have possibly missed joe publicaly criticizing the teams effort after the orlando win. i mean, it was probably the biggest nets story of the year

[lkitt0804]

absolutely not... even his own teammate(joe johnson) wasnt happy with the effort.

MDB, F3lon, Me, tb3 all were on him early on.

even when he won players of the week i got no his case. other then the knicks game he had i though he could play harder. his effort only picked up once he went to the bench

Can you please provide a link where Joe wasn't happy with Deron's effort? I tried googling for it and I appoligize but didn't find anything about that.

MDB said he wasn't going to criticize Deron's effort as late as mid December. It was a strange moment because I was thinking Deron was playing horrible and MDB was sticking up for him.


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you couldnt have possibly missed joe publicaly criticizing the teams effort after the orlando win. i mean, it was probably the biggest nets story of the year

Ok i stand corrected. I thought you meant Joe coming out and criticizing Deron specifically for being a "dog".

So he hasn't been criticized by any of his team mates or coaches publicly for lack of effort.


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[MrDollarBills]

I had eased off of Deron because even though the shot wasn't falling I didn't think he was playing bad but then around some point the train just ran off of the track. Could be injuries but I think he was playing like **** before he got hurt anyway

[MGrand15]

MDB and Tb3 were fine with Derons effort. Obviously not happy with his performance or his tenure here or his contract. But both have been fine with his effort. You can look it up. MDB is in here saying as much too. Playing badly and missing shots does not equal poor effort.

Joe Johnson was DEFINITELY talking about Jack when he called out selfishness. Brook and Mirza was probably included in there too. Not sure anyone assumed Deron was part of that.

Pork talking out of his ass as usual.

[lkitt0804]

I had eased off of Deron because even though the shot wasn't falling I didn't think he was playing bad but then around some point the train just ran off of the track. Could be injuries but I think he was playing like **** before he got hurt anyway

I agree with this. At this point I want both of our PGs to be aggressive. It doesn't matter who starts. I think Jack is better with the first unit. I think Deron makes our second unit alot better. I think we were playing our best basketball with this PG rotation. I'm hoping we sneak into the playoffs and get paired with Toronto. We'll probably lose but it would be fun to send them home again.


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[Paradise]

MDB and Tb3 were fine with Derons effort. Obviously not happy with his performance or his tenure here or his contract. But both have been fine with his effort. You can look it up. MDB is in here saying as much too. Playing badly and missing shots does not equal poor effort.

Joe Johnson was DEFINITELY talking about Jack when he called out selfishness. Brook and Mirza was probably included in there too. Not sure anyone assumed Deron was part of that.

Pork talking out of his ass as usual.

I don't understand how anyone can question Deron's effort. He has legitimately played through pain time and time again. He's gone out of his way to get cortisone shots to numb pain to help the team over the last few years and quite honestly, we would've been eliminated by Toronto in 6 games if it wasn't for him single handedly destroying them at home.

Deron's issues is productivity, decision making and confidence. Look at Derrick Rose for further proof.

[Trader_Joe]

MDB and Tb3 were fine with Derons effort. Obviously not happy with his performance or his tenure here or his contract. But both have been fine with his effort. You can look it up. MDB is in here saying as much too. Playing badly and missing shots does not equal poor effort.

Joe Johnson was DEFINITELY talking about Jack when he called out selfishness. Brook and Mirza was probably included in there too. Not sure anyone assumed Deron was part of that.

Pork talking out of his ass as usual.

I don't understand how anyone can question Deron's effort. He has legitimately played through pain time and time again. He's gone out of his way to get cortisone shots to numb pain to help the team over the last few years and quite honestly, we would've been eliminated by Toronto in 6 games if it wasn't for him single handedly destroying them at home.

Deron's issues is productivity, decision making and confidence. Look at Derrick Rose for further proof.

He is inconsistent which is often a result of effort.

His defense is the biggest example of this, though it's better than Jack's. Also, his body language is certainly readable and leads to lapses on the court. Additionally he plays different speeds throughout the game. When he's aggressive and attacking we tend to do better. When's he's walking the ball up the court and crossing half court with 18 second left on the shot clock, our offense suffers. If he maintained the same level of intensity, which I equate with effort to a large extent, there wouldn't be much to criticize about his effort.

[lkitt0804]

MDB and Tb3 were fine with Derons effort. Obviously not happy with his performance or his tenure here or his contract. But both have been fine with his effort. You can look it up. MDB is in here saying as much too. Playing badly and missing shots does not equal poor effort.

Joe Johnson was DEFINITELY talking about Jack when he called out selfishness. Brook and Mirza was probably included in there too. Not sure anyone assumed Deron was part of that.

Pork talking out of his ass as usual.

I don't understand how anyone can question Deron's effort. He has legitimately played through pain time and time again. He's gone out of his way to get cortisone shots to numb pain to help the team over the last few years and quite honestly, we would've been eliminated by Toronto in 6 games if it wasn't for him single handedly destroying them at home.

Deron's issues is productivity, decision making and confidence. Look at Derrick Rose for further proof.

He is inconsistent which is often a result of effort.

His defense is the biggest example of this, though it's better than Jack's. Also, his body language is certainly readable and leads to lapses on the court. Additionally he plays different speeds throughout the game. When he's aggressive and attacking we tend to do better. When's he's walking the ball up the court and crossing half court with 18 second left on the shot clock, our offense suffers. If he maintained the same level of intensity, which I equate with effort to a large extent, there wouldn't be much to criticize about his effort.

His defense has been a lot better this year. He'll never be able to stay in front of John Wall but his on ball defense has improved this year. He'll never be a good defender though.

I find myself wanting him to push the ball more too. I think part of that is on Hollins wanting to slow the pace because we don't have the athletes. I do want him to break down the defense more. He sucks at finishing at the rim but that will create opportunities for others. I don't agree that lack of aggressiveness means lack of effort or intensity though.






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[Prokorov]

MDB and Tb3 were fine with Derons effort. Obviously not happy with his performance or his tenure here or his contract. But both have been fine with his effort. You can look it up. MDB is in here saying as much too. Playing badly and missing shots does not equal poor effort.

Joe Johnson was DEFINITELY talking about Jack when he called out selfishness. Brook and Mirza was probably included in there too. Not sure anyone assumed Deron was part of that.

Pork talking out of his ass as usual.

I don't understand how anyone can question Deron's effort. He has legitimately played through pain time and time again. He's gone out of his way to get cortisone shots to numb pain to help the team over the last few years and quite honestly, we would've been eliminated by Toronto in 6 games if it wasn't for him single handedly destroying them at home.

Deron's issues is productivity, decision making and confidence. Look at Derrick Rose for further proof.

give me derrick rose 100 times out of 100. that guy plays 110% when he is on the floor. id rather someone miss time and play hard then to play through it but play with minimal effort. playing with low effort is as bad as it gets. to say dwills effort is soley because of injury is crazy. we have seen him dog it when healthy... we have seen his effort in games go up and down. we have seen him mentally check out.

Also, it isnt just on the court, how many times has he come in to camp out of shape?

i give dwill 0 slack. the guy is the biggest dog in the NBA and the worst ive seen since coleman.

[Paradise]

He is inconsistent which is often a result of effort.

His defense is the biggest example of this, though it's better than Jack's. Also, his body language is certainly readable and leads to lapses on the court. Additionally he plays different speeds throughout the game. When he's aggressive and attacking we tend to do better. When's he's walking the ball up the court and crossing half court with 18 second left on the shot clock, our offense suffers. If he maintained the same level of intensity, which I equate with effort to a large extent, there wouldn't be much to criticize about his effort.

The walking the ball up vs pushing it argument again goes back to health. His aggressiveness has usually been when he's had days off which is a sign of degenerative parts. Derrick Rose is showing those same traits right now.

I don't think he gives a maximum effort all the time but there is a perception that he doesn't care and just dogs it everyday. I don't see that. Hollins, for all his blunt persona has even said he comes in and works hard but cannot find consistent results and feels bad for him. I can understand how some might get both mixed together but stats/effort can also be separated.