Nets/Hornets PG: Same Ol' Nets

[Pumbo_Sploof]

umm... lopez strength IS iso play. it is pretty much the only thing he is decent at. what strengths do you want to play to? his inability to hit midrange jumpers? his inability to pass out of the double team? his inability to consistently establish low post position?

Just false. In prior years Lopez got the majority of points in the restricted area, a substantial amount assisted. He's historically exceptional at converting there - much better than Plumlee. Iso isn't his strength. He's great rolling to the rim and finishing high with his length and long strides.

Hollins has changed how Lopez plays offense for the worse. I agree with you in par this year. Lopez's FTA are less than half per minute. His assisted FG% is half. He's shooting way more from the outside. This aberration from career norms is on Hollins.

Lopez passes out of doubles, by the way. All the time. Just doesn't get assists from doubles.

Ideally if you build around Lopez, you build around running the PnR with him. Avoid low post all together. Alternate between PnR, cuts to the basket, and allow Lopez to have his face-up game and to use the rip move. Lopez is best moving towards the basket. Let him attack his man off the dribble and get to the FT line. None of these finesse "flick" shots that Hollins wants him to take.

[Prokorov]

PP could guard the 4, not the 3. He was out of position early on. He should have started over KG with Lopez. His shooting was not elite. Not close. It only became solid because he was allowed to be ball dominant. He tried being a spot-shooter early on and failed spectacularly. Poor acquisition given the pieces we had.

1) tough to play pierce next to brook because brook doesnt rebound. KG was the ebst defensive rebounder in the league that year. Also, with KG anchored our pick and roll defense, with lopez you'd have more breakdowns. Garnett also got alot of steals, something that was key to our turn around.

2) He had a 60 TS% and shot 37% from three. thats pretty outstanding shooting. Also, pierce is exactly the type of player this team needed. A leader and a guy who played with effort and pride. his early shooting struggles were due to a hand injury.

Lopez was a better defensive 5 than KG that season. All the metrics support that. Our team D improved because Pierce went to the 4 and Livingston emerged as a defensive force.

No, he wasnt. and defensive metrics are extremely weak and evaluating individual defense. for 5 man units advanced defensive metrics can be useful, but they fail miserably on the individual level. Harden has been among the best defenders by those numbers. clearly not the case. Lopez is a weak rim protector. FG% against at the rim is a poor stat as it doesnt take into account the end result of the possesion, 2nd chance points, fouls, or total number of attempts. I want somone who doesnt allow shots at the rim, not someone who allows alot but the % of conversion is good. limiting second chances is important as well. 33% allowed at the rim sounds good but doesnt mean much if the guy had 2 offensive rebounds and eventually converted on that possesion.'

anyone with 2 eyes will tell you KG was a significantly better defender then brook at the 5.

Secondly, blaming Lopez for KG being bad at the 4 is ridiculous. That's not Lopez's problem. We shouldn't have acquired someone to slow to play the 4. Kidd shouldn't have played him at the 4. Lopez didn't force us to make these roster decisions.

Kidd didnt sign lopez, and part of why he left is because king wouldnt trade him. Indirectly, KG played PF because brook was on the roster. once brook was gone, KG played C, and we were much better

Joe is the biggest ball-stopper on the team. Ball movement improved a little because we went small and had more spacing. Still, this was a team that essentially traded off iso attempts during the playoffs. Such stagnant offense in half court sets against any decent defense.

Statistically Lopez takes more FGA in isolation then joe this season. even if joe is more of an iso player then brook, it doesnt negate that lopez is also a very heavy isolation player. And those iso attempts in the playoffs by joe carried us to the second round.

All indirectly and all unfairly. That's like a team with Lebron James deciding to have Varejao run the point. Once Lebron is hurt, coach decides to play Varejao at center. You blame Lebron in this analogy? You're punishing Lopez for other peoples' mistakes and limitations. He was the only thing working.

That is an extremely idiotic analogy not based in reality.

KG and Lopez are both bigs. there is only 1 center spot.

Varajao is not a small or a PG. he would never play PG. KG is a center, he should play center. he was blocked by brook

Hatred? Blind love? No need for hyperbole and personal attacks. When I explain in detail how I reach my conclusions that is the opposite of "blind".

As an aside, this board is needlessly aggressive to people who they disagree with. You guys all have some serious baggage....

this board doesnt agree on much, but we all get along for the most part because we respect each others opinions and everyone here uses evidence to back up their claims. they dont just post walls of texts based on assumption and opinion.

me and paradise dont agree on much, but i respect that dude cause he brings the numbers and watches the game. me and tJ agree on nothing, but the same he backs up his opinions with facts and watches the games.

you are just a lopez/dwill homer determined to scapegoat the coach and roleplayers, and joe. You should probably go back to ND if you want to be patted on the back for thinking lopez is some stud you can build around and that Dwill just needs the right pieces around him to be good.

calling a homer a homer isnt a personal attack

[Prokorov]

Just false. In prior years Lopez got the majority of points in the restricted area, a substantial amount assisted. He's historically exceptional at converting there - much better than Plumlee. Iso isn't his strength. He's great rolling to the rim and finishing high with his length and long strides.

While Lopez FTA and points in the paint have been higher in past years, so has his FGA in isolation. other then his first season he has been a heavy iso scorer. his pick and roll scoring also have never been great and he has taken more FGA on pick and pops then pick and rolls... not good considering he is so bad from 16-22 feet out.

Lopes is not a better finisher then plumlee. and im not sure how that is even relevant to this?

Lopez passes out of doubles, by the way. All the time. Just doesn't get assists from doubles.

You lose a ton of credibility when you say things like this. it is common knowledge to everyone who watches the nets that reacting to and passing out of double teams is lopez biggest offensive flaw

Ideally if you build around Lopez, you build around running the PnR with him. Avoid low post all together. Alternate between PnR, cuts to the basket, and allow Lopez to have his face-up game and to use the rip move. Lopez is best moving towards the basket. Let him attack his man off the dribble and get to the FT line. None of these finesse "flick" shots that Hollins wants him to take.

lopez has been taking the shotput "flick shot" his entire time in a brooklyn uniform. this isnt new to hollins. That is obvious to everyone on this board as i have bitched about it in every game thread for the past 3 years. This is just more scapegoating and excuse making. Lopez flip shots are not a new phenominon.

Lopez isnt anywhere close to good enough to build around. he is too easy to gaurd from a team standpoint. he doesnt make you move as a team. he doesnt make you pay for double teaming. he will settle for bad shots(long 2's) if you dare him to take them.

Lopez isnt some all-nba player or top notch offensive threat.

[Pumbo_Sploof]

for 5 man units advanced defensive metrics can be useful, but they fail miserably on the individual level. Harden has been among the best defenders by those numbers. clearly not the case. Lopez is a weak rim protector.

Firstly, who said I used a garbage team stat like drtg (for example)? Nothing advanced about that. I am talking about Synergy tracking software, which is really the best thing we have at the moment to evaluate defense.

Lopez is a weak rim protector. FG% against at the rim is a poor stat as it doesnt take into account the end result of the possesion, 2nd chance points, fouls, or total number of attempts. I want somone who doesnt allow shots at the rim, not someone who allows alot but the % of conversion is good. limiting second chances is important as well. 33% allowed at the rim sounds good but doesnt mean much if the guy had 2 offensive rebounds and eventually converted on that possesion.

Yeah, you're right in questioning the metric, but you can't just completely sweep it under the rug and leave us with the conclusory statement that Lopez isn't a good rim protector. That season, Lopez had best rim protection numbers by a wide margin. While most top defensive centers hover in the mid 40s to 50, Love was in the 30s. That's huge. Even if we take the metric with a dose of salt, SOMEthing was going on - you're not giving enough credit.

It's strange to me you include 2nd chance points and offensive rebounds. First, because if Lopez is contesting a shot, it's generally on the 4 to rotate in and box-out the rebound. Second, you offer no data looking at the 2nd chance points against Brook that season relative to other centers.

Rim protection is good at telling us generally how good a player is at contesting shots. If you want to argue Lopez allows too many shots then you can look to other stats. If you want to argue 2nd chance points, look at 2nd chance points. Don't discredit rim protection just because it doesn't track things it's not meant to track. It isn't all-encompassing.

anyone with 2 eyes will tell you KG was a significantly better defender then brook at the 5.

Yeah, ok.

Secondly, blaming Lopez for KG being bad at the 4 is ridiculous. That's not Lopez's problem. We shouldn't have acquired someone to slow to play the 4. Kidd shouldn't have played him at the 4. Lopez didn't force us to make these roster decisions. [/quote]

ndirectly, KG played PF because brook was on the roster. once brook was gone, KG played C, and we were much better

No one forced Kidd to start KG. That's his fault. No rule we had to play KG.

Joe is the biggest ball-stopper on the team. Ball movement improved a little because we went small and had more spacing. Still, this was a team that essentially traded off iso attempts during the playoffs. Such stagnant offense in half court sets against any decent defense.

Statistically Lopez takes more FGA in isolation then joe this season. even if joe is more of an iso player then brook, it doesnt negate that lopez is also a very heavy isolation player. And those iso attempts in the playoffs by joe carried us to the second round.

This season Lopez's shot distribution is wonky. I agree he's taking too much iso this year. Different than previous years, sadly.

They carried us but it wasn't sustainable basketball. Building around Joe severely capped our ceiling as a team. We were complacent. It worked because he got hot, but was never smart basketball.

That is an extremely idiotic analogy not based in reality. KG is a center, he should play center. he was blocked by brook

I think you miss the point of analogies. Oh and Brook is the better center. By far.

Hatred? Blind love? No need for hyperbole and personal attacks. When I explain in detail how I reach my conclusions that is the opposite of "blind".

As an aside, this board is needlessly aggressive to people who they disagree with. You guys all have some serious baggage....

everyone here uses evidence to back up their claims.

This one made me chuckle. Yeah like posting win-loss with Lopez in the lineup versus out of the lineup is totally rigorous evidence and analysis. Yeah, no. I've seen more non-sequitur and fallacy here than anywhere else.

[Prokorov]

Firstly, who said I used a garbage team stat like drtg (for example)? Nothing advanced about that. I am talking about Synergy tracking software, which is really the best thing we have at the moment to evaluate defense.

When did I say anything about drtg. I was speaking of the same stats you are. Which while they may be the best thing we have as far as stats go, they are still extremely poor for evaluating individual defense. Great for 5 ma units, poor for individuals. there are just too many factors to really capture individual defense with statistics... we are getting better, but still way off.

Yeah, you're right in questioning the metric, but you can't just completely sweep it under the rug and leave us with the conclusory statement that Lopez isn't a good rim protector. That season, Lopez had best rim protection numbers by a wide margin. While most top defensive centers hover in the mid 40s to 50, Love was in the 30s. That's huge. Even if we take the metric with a dose of salt, SOMEthing was going on - you're not giving enough credit.

Well, "that year" includes a 17 game sample, and the metric we both agree has some potential or legit flaws to it. I cant really conclude much from it and realyl cant do much other then throw it out.

It's strange to me you include 2nd chance points and offensive rebounds. First, because if Lopez is contesting a shot, it's generally on the 4 to rotate in and box-out the rebound. Second, you offer no data looking at the 2nd chance points against Brook that season relative to other centers.

im not saying its one way or another.... im saying it simply doesnt take those major factors into account. The stat doesnt account for when you foula guy at the rim and he hits 2 free throws, that doenst hurt your percentage against at the rim. nor does it look negative(in fact, it would look positive) if a guy got several rebounds on you before eventually putting it in.

there are instances where the 4 should box out, there are isntances where you also just get bullied. the point is, the stat doesnt take into account what the end result was on that possesion. it views every attempt in its own without context to the possesion. It also ignores plays where you werent in position to alter the shot because you got beat so badly or didnt rotate(again, this isnt exclusive to lopez, the stat ignores this for everyone).

Rim protection is good at telling us generally how good a player is at contesting shots. If you want to argue Lopez allows too many shots then you can look to other stats. If you want to argue 2nd chance points, look at 2nd chance points. Don't discredit rim protection just because it doesn't track things it's not meant to track. It isn't all-encompassing.

I dont think it does.... i think it gives a good idea of how good you are at blocking shots that have a good chance of being blocked. I dont think that is rim protection. it kind of ignores all the times you allow a shot made at the rim without putting yourself in position to challenge the shot. again, this isnt about lopez, the stat doesnt factor that stuff in.

No one forced Kidd to start KG. That's his fault. No rule we had to play KG.

At the very least, it was a logjam. maybe at some point kidd benches lopez for KG.... the injury sped that up if anything. also, while kidd still has the final say, there is always some pressure to start a guy making 17M

This season Lopez's shot distribution is wonky. I agree he's taking too much iso this year. Different than previous years, sadly.

They carried us but it wasn't sustainable basketball. Building around Joe severely capped our ceiling as a team. We were complacent. It worked because he got hot, but was never smart basketball.

lopez was still heavy iso the prior full season in brooklyn. this isnt isolated to this season. Other plays also being iso heavy doesnt change lopez is iso heavy as well.

It isnt smart basketball, but it was also our best bet given our roster. Billy king is the real culprit.

This one made me chuckle. Yeah like posting win-loss with Lopez in the lineup versus out of the lineup is totally rigorous evidence and analysis. Yeah, no. I've seen more non-sequitur and fallacy here than anywhere else.

i've elaborated quite a bit on that, you just choose to only quote a truncated sentence of it and ignore the rest.

[Pumbo_Sploof]

[quote="Prokorov"] Great for 5 ma units, poor for individuals. there are just too many factors to really capture individual defense with statistics... we are getting better, but still way off.
[quote]

You're mistaken. Synergy is terrible for team defense and 5 man units as it categorically and qualitatively breaks down play types for individual defenders. Looking at synergy's numbers for Tyson C's PnR defense will tell me NOTHING about Mav's team defense. Nothing. You're thinking of something else.


[quote="Prokorov"]Well, "that year" includes a 17 game sample, and the metric we both agree has some potential or legit flaws to it. I cant really conclude much from it and realyl cant do much other then throw it out.
[quote]
He was near elite the prior full season as well. My bad not including it.


[quote="Prokorov"]there are instances where the 4 should box out, there are isntances where you also just get bullied. the point is, the stat doesnt take into account what the end result was on that possesion. it views every attempt in its own without context to the possesion. It also ignores plays where you werent in position to alter the shot because you got beat so badly or didnt rotate(again, this isnt exclusive to lopez, the stat ignores this for everyone).
[quote]

I agree. I'm also not saying rim protection tells us about those things though. Guess we define rim protection differently. I think your definition is a bit broad.



[quote="Prokorov"]I dont think it does.... i think it gives a good idea of how good you are at blocking shots that have a good chance of being blocked. I dont think that is rim protection. it kind of ignores all the times you allow a shot made at the rim without putting yourself in position to challenge the shot. again, this isnt about lopez, the stat doesnt factor that stuff in.
[quote]

Nah that's block rate you're talking about. Blocking constitutes a small fraction of what rim protection tracks. Rim portection tracks all shots against X defender when he's the primary defender at the rim. We're talking very large samples. Rim protection tracks how well a player contests, most generally. Like how good they are at altering shots. It makes some sense that Lopez is a good rim protector because he's so damn big and long and takes up a lot of space. PnR will show up in rim protection, but it will only be part of a larger sample that includes all kinds of defense near the rim.

And fyi, FGA at the rim is almost always tracked concurrently with rim protection, though it's less useful and more team-dependent.


[quote="Prokorov"]At the very least, it was a logjam. maybe at some point kidd benches lopez for KG.... the injury sped that up if anything. also, while kidd still has the final say, there is always some pressure to start a guy making 17M
[quote]
Fair, again. I just think Kidd should have worked better with what we had. We thought we'd be destroyed on the glass this season, but we've done ok with Lopez and our rebounding numbers are about the same with Plumlee our Lopez on the floor. I think PP/Lopez could have worked tbh.

[Pumbo_Sploof]

Great for 5 ma units, poor for individuals. there are just too many factors to really capture individual defense with statistics... we are getting better, but still way off.

You're mistaken. Synergy is terrible for team defense and 5 man units as it categorically and qualitatively breaks down play types for individual defenders. Looking at synergy's numbers for Tyson C's PnR defense will tell me NOTHING about Mav's team defense. Nothing. You're thinking of something else.

Well, "that year" includes a 17 game sample, and the metric we both agree has some potential or legit flaws to it. I cant really conclude much from it and realyl cant do much other then throw it out.

He was near elite the prior full season as well. My bad not including it.

there are instances where the 4 should box out, there are isntances where you also just get bullied. the point is, the stat doesnt take into account what the end result was on that possesion. it views every attempt in its own without context to the possesion. It also ignores plays where you werent in position to alter the shot because you got beat so badly or didnt rotate(again, this isnt exclusive to lopez, the stat ignores this for everyone).

I agree. I'm also not saying rim protection tells us about those things though. Guess we define rim protection differently. I think your definition is a bit broad.

I dont think it does.... i think it gives a good idea of how good you are at blocking shots that have a good chance of being blocked. I dont think that is rim protection. it kind of ignores all the times you allow a shot made at the rim without putting yourself in position to challenge the shot. again, this isnt about lopez, the stat doesnt factor that stuff in.

That's block rate you're talking about. Blocking constitutes a small fraction of what rim protection tracks. Rim portection tracks all shots against X defender when he's the primary defender at the rim. We're talking very large samples. Rim protection tracks how well a player contests, most generally. Like how good they are at altering shots. It makes some sense that Lopez is a good rim protector because he's so damn big and long and takes up a lot of space. PnR will show up in rim protection, but it will only be part of a larger sample that includes all kinds of defense near the rim.

And fyi, FGA at the rim is almost always tracked concurrently with rim protection, though it's less useful and more team-dependent.

At the very least, it was a logjam. maybe at some point kidd benches lopez for KG.... the injury sped that up if anything. also, while kidd still has the final say, there is always some pressure to start a guy making 17M

Fair, again. I just think Kidd should have worked better with what we had. We thought we'd be destroyed on the glass this season, but we've done ok with Lopez and our rebounding numbers are about the same with Plumlee our Lopez on the floor. I think PP/Lopez could have worked tbh.[/quote]