Worst trade ever: Looking back at Nets-Celtics deal from 2013

[Jersey Generals]

Hasn't George Hill for Kawhi Leonard been worse on the court?

Sent from my LG-H872 using RealGM mobile app

Exactly

Robert traylor for Dirk was a far worse trade

Can we actually wait to see if one of these players is actually good

Because right now it's an argument that jaylen is better than caris

Terrible logic, the both of you. Value isn't determined in retrospect, it's determined in the present. If you buy a car for 5k right now and sell it for 3k in two years, does that mean it wasn't worth the 5k this year? Bad way to look at things.

George Hill was not traded for Kawhi Leonard, he was traded for the 15th pick in the draft, who ended up being Kawhi Leonard. Tractor Traylor wasn't traded for Dirk, he was traded for the pick that became Dirk. Retrospective observation doesn't determine value.

[DoItALL9]

Hasn't George Hill for Kawhi Leonard been worse on the court?

Sent from my LG-H872 using RealGM mobile app

Exactly

Robert traylor for Dirk was a far worse trade

Can we actually wait to see if one of these players is actually good

Because right now it's an argument that jaylen is better than caris

Terrible logic, the both of you. Value isn't determined in retrospect, it's determined in the present. If you buy a car for 5k right now and sell it for 3k in two years, does that mean it wasn't worth the 5k this year? Bad way to look at things.

George Hill was not traded for Kawhi Leonard, he was traded for the 15th pick in the draft, who ended up being Kawhi Leonard. Tractor Traylor wasn't traded for Dirk, he was traded for the pick that became Dirk. Retrospective observation doesn't determine value.

No it's deeper than that. Trading picks can always look good but if over the years we learn Danny Ainge can't draft those weren't good trades. (They still maybe bad for Brooklyn or maybe Brooklyn already knew they were bad at drafting so didn't see them as valuable)
We probably just disagree on this.
But if Ainge sucks at drafting but keeps landing picks as a Celtic fan you wouldn't feel like you're repeatedly "winning" trades.
Perception is close to everything.
But if want to stand on what happened on paper in the "present", go ahead

[Jersey Generals]

But if Ainge sucks at drafting but keeps landing picks as a Celtic fan you wouldn't feel like you're repeatedly "winning" trades.

Sure I would since having the capability to draft a player higher is a better asset than, you know, not being able to, but even if we're looking at picks, Caris LeVert and Jaylen Brown had just about the same stats while Brown is two years younger and played 4 minutes less per game on a way better team with less than LeVert did. Plus, his Per 36 are actually better than LeVert, so even if you look back in retrospect, they still won the trade.

[Prokorov]

Hasn't George Hill for Kawhi Leonard been worse on the court?

Sent from my LG-H872 using RealGM mobile app

Exactly

Robert traylor for Dirk was a far worse trade

Can we actually wait to see if one of these players is actually good

Because right now it's an argument that jaylen is better than caris

Terrible logic, the both of you. Value isn't determined in retrospect, it's determined in the present. If you buy a car for 5k right now and sell it for 3k in two years, does that mean it wasn't worth the 5k this year? Bad way to look at things.

George Hill was not traded for Kawhi Leonard, he was traded for the 15th pick in the draft, who ended up being Kawhi Leonard. Tractor Traylor wasn't traded for Dirk, he was traded for the pick that became Dirk. Retrospective observation doesn't determine value.

exactly.... in retrospect with tons of unknown those deals look awful. and only when you ignore the circumstances of the situation.

at the time of the trade everyone new the wallace deal was an all-time bad trade. just go back to the thread here about it. we gave up a high lotto pick in a win now move when we were a terrible team to RENT a bench player for 3 months.

those other trades dont come close to that.... let me give you the current equivolent.... it would be like the sacramento kings giving up their own lotto pick for an expiring taj gibson at the trade deadline with no shot at playoffs

[Mosdefinition]

Hasn't George Hill for Kawhi Leonard been worse on the court?

Sent from my LG-H872 using RealGM mobile app

Exactly

Robert traylor for Dirk was a far worse trade

Can we actually wait to see if one of these players is actually good

Because right now it's an argument that jaylen is better than caris

Terrible logic, the both of you. Value isn't determined in retrospect, it's determined in the present. If you buy a car for 5k right now and sell it for 3k in two years, does that mean it wasn't worth the 5k this year? Bad way to look at things.

George Hill was not traded for Kawhi Leonard, he was traded for the 15th pick in the draft, who ended up being Kawhi Leonard. Tractor Traylor wasn't traded for Dirk, he was traded for the pick that became Dirk. Retrospective observation doesn't determine value.

Yes it is

So in your estimation the hornets for example won the Kobe trade divac was a better player at the time

All trades are judged after the fact

Hell if you go back to draft when they made the trade bill Simmons called the trade pennies on the dollar so at that time the nets won the trade after the fact they lost the trade

And as for the Wallace trade it was done to keep deron and the nets we're not going to draft Lillard even if they didn't make the Wallace trade

[DoItALL9]

But if Ainge sucks at drafting but keeps landing picks as a Celtic fan you wouldn't feel like you're repeatedly "winning" trades.

Sure I would since having the capability to draft a player higher is a better asset than, you know, not being able to, but even if we're looking at picks, Caris LeVert and Jaylen Brown had just about the same stats while Brown is two years younger and played 4 minutes less per game on a way better team with less than LeVert did. Plus, his Per 36 are actually better than LeVert, so even if you look back in retrospect, they still won the trade.

You can't evaluate these two for finished grades on a trade after LeVert's/Brown's rookie year only. But is Brown unquestionably ahead based on those stats you presented. Time will tell

[Prokorov]

But if Ainge sucks at drafting but keeps landing picks as a Celtic fan you wouldn't feel like you're repeatedly "winning" trades.

Sure I would since having the capability to draft a player higher is a better asset than, you know, not being able to, but even if we're looking at picks, Caris LeVert and Jaylen Brown had just about the same stats while Brown is two years younger and played 4 minutes less per game on a way better team with less than LeVert did. Plus, his Per 36 are actually better than LeVert, so even if you look back in retrospect, they still won the trade.

You can't evaluate these two for finished grades on a trade after LeVert's/Brown's rookie year only. But is Brown unquestionably ahead based on those stats you presented. Time will tell

i think brown is already better then levert with a much much higher ceiling and better measureables. i love levert but brown is a stud prospect.

and even if he wasnt.... you still have to factor in this years #1 pick (or#3 plus lakers 2018 first)

[Jersey Generals]

Yes it is

So in your estimation the hornets for example won the Kobe trade divac was a better player at the time

Literally exact opposite of what I said. Divac was traded for the 13th (or whatever pick it actually was, not going to google it right now), not Kobe Bryant. Was his value the 13th pick in the draft? Maybe, maybe not, but you shouldn't be looking at what Kobe Bryant or Shaq (since Vlade was traded solely to get Shaq) did, you should look at the value of the pick itself.

Hell if you go back to draft when they made the trade bill Simmons called the trade pennies on the dollar so at that time the nets won the trade after the fact they lost the trade

I actually know for a fact people within the organization knew they overpaid from the start, they just didn't care because they thought they could outlast the end results and the people who were against the trade had zero power to do anything. Bill Simmons saying differently doesn't really matter since, like you (and me and everyone else in this thread when it comes to this context), he is a fan and tend to overvalue players on the team .

[DoItALL9]

Sure I would since having the capability to draft a player higher is a better asset than, you know, not being able to, but even if we're looking at picks, Caris LeVert and Jaylen Brown had just about the same stats while Brown is two years younger and played 4 minutes less per game on a way better team with less than LeVert did. Plus, his Per 36 are actually better than LeVert, so even if you look back in retrospect, they still won the trade.

You can't evaluate these two for finished grades on a trade after LeVert's/Brown's rookie year only. But is Brown unquestionably ahead based on those stats you presented. Time will tell

i think brown is already better then levert with a much much higher ceiling and better measureables. i love levert but brown is a stud prospect.

and even if he wasnt.... you still have to factor in this years #1 pick (or#3 plus lakers 2018 first)

And next year's Brooklyn pick smh
Sheesh

[Karate Diop]

Hated the trade the moment it went down. I

have a good friend who's a Celtics fan and every year I'd bring him down pointing to stat after stat showing Pierce and Garnett were in serious decline... Then the Nets go and trade for those !@#$ bags... :-|

[ArtistNBA]

I hope Celtics get a top 3 pick from the nets next year and draft a top big man prospect, they are very valuable

[NyCeEvO]

I hope Celtics get a top 3 pick from the nets next year and draft a top big man prospect, they are very valuable

Wrong board buddy. No need to come on to the Nets board to explicitly express hope for Brooklyn's demise. It's considered trolling.

- NyCe

[Karate Diop]

I hope Celtics get a top 3 pick from the nets next year and draft a top big man prospect, they are very valuable

Might need a PG if Thomas doesn't heal and Smart and Rozier continue to show zero development on the offensive end...

[NyCeEvO]

Might need a PG if Thomas doesn't heal and Smart and Rozier continue to show zero development on the offensive end...

Don't feed...

But while we're on the subject...as long as Smart is on a small contract, his defense alone is worth him having a rotation spot. Also, Rozier developed quite nicely over the course of the season. I liked the way he performed both defensively and offensively as the season wound down as well as in the playoffs.

[Karate Diop]

Might need a PG if Thomas doesn't heal and Smart and Rozier continue to show zero development on the offensive end...

Don't feed...

But while we're on the subject...as long as Smart is on a small contract, his defense alone is worth him having a rotation spot. Also, Rozier developed quite nicely over the course of the season. I liked the way he performed both defensively and offensively as the season wound down as well as in the playoffs.

I was actually making a serious point.

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/5476/

Rozier shot 36.7% from the field last year. Is that an improvement over his rookie year 27.4%? Yes

But it's still horrendous. I remember the narrative about Rozier "developing" started late summer last year and carried through a good chunk of last season among sportswriters - but the numbers don't lie.

Rozier is - and I'll say it again - a horrendous offensive player.

Smart and Rozier have roles to play in the league but neither looks to have the makings of a lead guard (which again is only cause for concern because historically speaking short players who rely on their athleticism / speed don't age well in the NBA), and both tend to duplicate the strengths of the other.

[jbeachboy]

it was a great lesson for future nets general managers to learn from.

[NyCeEvO]

Might need a PG if Thomas doesn't heal and Smart and Rozier continue to show zero development on the offensive end...

Don't feed...

But while we're on the subject...as long as Smart is on a small contract, his defense alone is worth him having a rotation spot. Also, Rozier developed quite nicely over the course of the season. I liked the way he performed both defensively and offensively as the season wound down as well as in the playoffs.

I was actually making a serious point.

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/5476/

Rozier shot 36.7% from the field last year. Is that an improvement over his rookie year 27.4%? Yes

But it's still horrendous. I remember the narrative about Rozier "developing" started late summer last year and carried through a good chunk of last season among sportswriters - but the numbers don't lie.

Rozier is - and I'll say it again - a horrendous offensive player.

Smart and Rozier have roles to play in the league but neither looks to have the makings of a lead guard (which again is only cause for concern because historically speaking short players who rely on their athleticism / speed don't age well in the NBA), and both tend to duplicate the strengths of the other.

But then you're admitting that Rozier did develop a bit. He's not that good but he's a pesky defender that Boston can throw out in pressure packed situations to bother the opposing team. I assume that he'll continue to improve under Stevens' tutelage. They don't have to make a decision on him until next year's QO deadline.

Overall, Boston has an allstar PG and were the #1 seed this year. I don't like when people make fun of the Nets but 28 other teams in the league wishe that they could be in Boston's shoes.

[Karate Diop]

But then you're admitting that Rozier did develop a bit. He's not that good but he's a pesky defender that Boston can throw out in pressure packed situations to bother the opposing team. I assume that he'll continue to improve under Stevens' tutelage. They don't have to make a decision on him until next year's QO deadline.

Overall, Boston has an allstar PG and were the #1 seed this year. I don't like when people make fun of the Nets but 28 other teams in the league wishe that they could be in Boston's shoes.

It was minimal development, I'll give you that, but not nearly enough to give me confidence in his offense going forward.

36.7% is 36.7%.