Nets Trade Zeller To Bucks For Rashad Vaughn + 2018 Protected 2nd Rounder

[SpeedyG]

Are there any examples of trading a young player in his rookie contract for a 1st round pick and it working out?

The one example I can think of is MCW with the Sixers. That worked out great for them. That trade looks crazy now.

You can argue that the Lakers are in a decent spot getting Kuzma for Russell.

Bogs was in his rookie contract and Allen is in good spot for us.

Jazz used Lyles to move up to get mitchell.

Still early for those, but those look promising.

Do you count guys that are about to come off rookie deals? Kenyon Martin comes to mind as someone a team didn't want to pay and decided to get picks (my god what did we use those picks on?)

Denver traded McDyess to phoenix for multiple picks before his rookie deal expired. This was an ouchy since Dice ended up going back to Denver when his contract ended. But that's a crazy scenario unlikely to happen again.

Nash was traded by Phoenix to Dallas for stuff plus a future pick (ended up being Marion).

There's some notable screw ups too (Harden).

It's difficult to find since trades often will include other players if only for salary/roster purposes, but I'm sure if u looked at the history of the NBA, you'll find teams that wished they traded a young promising player for a 1st round pick rather than extending him, but also cases of where they wished they had kept him and not gave up on him.

[SpeedyG]

We actually do. All that is, is the big top locking, closing the angle while the defender makes a play. Watch James Webb when he did it wit D'Angelo Russell the past few games.

No, we don't. Milwaukee at this point was playing the most aggressive PNR D in the league by a mile. We play it the complete opposite way.

We play it according to personel.

James Webb was top locking and our guards ran guards off the 3 point line.

Webb has played limited minutes in the past few games, and at the 4. Acy at the 5 in close end game situations have done this as well.

But majority of the time this season and last (Lopez, Booker, Mozgov, Zeller, Okafor and even Allen at the 5), we have had our bigs zone off.

unless you are expecting Webb to start playing 5 ahead of those guys, then chances are we won't be defending pnr that way most of the time.

[LKIRNets]

No, we don't. Milwaukee at this point was playing the most aggressive PNR D in the league by a mile. We play it the complete opposite way.

We play it according to personel.

James Webb was top locking and our guards ran guards off the 3 point line.

Webb has played limited minutes in the past few games, and at the 4. Acy at the 5 in close end game situations have done this as well.

But majority of the time this season and last (Lopez, Booker, Mozgov, Zeller, Okafor and even Allen at the 5), we have had our bigs zone off.

unless you are expecting Webb to start playing 5 ahead of those guys, then chances are we won't be defending pnr that way most of the time.

That's why I said according to personel. Certain guys can't do this. This all started when immobile centers (Mozgov, Hamilton, Zeller to an extent) needed help and only RHJ was the blanket, so we played wit the big position dropping back. Now the center is Jarrett Allen and Okafor is the back up. So a James Webb allows us to be more athletic in the perimeter, it allows us to play this way.

This is also why I'm in favor of the rumored Miami Heat deal. B/c the line up is changing, even Okafor is showing versatility on defense. Now we need to find another James Webb type. Rashad is one of those types in the guard position. Perhaps Justise Winslow or Stanley Roberts are next.

[Prokorov]

When you are a bad team who lacks talent its REALLY important that you get it right when it comes to paying your own young guys whose rookie deals are up vs. trading them for picks

you get that wrong and it could push you back 2-3 years and cost you a chance at some other opportunities.

I'd have no issue trading any of RHJ/Russell/Levert if marks feels that they arent perrenial allstat/ top 3 guys on perrenial playoff teams.

As is, id lean towards not extending russell and letting him hit RFA, i want to see another year because as of now to me he isnt a superstar but more of a 2 time career all-star and a monte ellis type.

id pay RHJ 17 million. not sure id pay him 20+ million unless he took the leap to green levels by the team we pay him.

LEvert id be fine giving 15-17 million too. im not sure id give him 20-25 million. but we have alot of time for that before we decide.



i look at the wizards. their core talent is alot better then ours and i think we'd all be happy if that trio panned out as well as wall/beal/porter have. but even then you look at the wiz and they have maybe the leagues worst cap situation after portland and they arent all that great.

id like to avoid being a less talented wizards with awful but not as awful cap situation

[MGrand15]

We actually do. All that is, is the big top locking, closing the angle while the defender makes a play. Watch James Webb when he did it wit D'Angelo Russell the past few games.

No, we don't. Milwaukee at this point was playing the most aggressive PNR D in the league by a mile. We play it the complete opposite way.

We play it according to personel.

James Webb was top locking and our guards ran guards off the 3 point line.

RHJ doesnt play it like that and he'd be perfect in that role. Acy doesn't either. It's not our base PNR defense. Kenny isn't changing all of our schemes for James Webb.

[NyCeEvO]

This list makes me wonder why people want to trade our young guys for picks outside of the top 5 to ten.

Draft picks have their highest value before the draft because teams much prefer to have the choice to draft whomever is available they want. Every team thinks they're draft pick was a sleeper or their player will end up being more valuable than the draft pick spot they were selected at.

A top 5 will always have high value because draft pick slots correlate (to a degree) with the success of a player's career.

No team is giving up a top 5 for a non-star player because they don't want to give up the freedom/eligibility to select a top player with high potential who's guaranteed to be on their team for 7+ years if they so choose.

While there's no guarantee that your pick will become a star, the best players from previous drafts still tend to correlate with higher draft slots. It's still exceedingly rare to draft a superstar from the teens; that's not the case for a top 5 pick.

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This is my point. Why would we give up young players with upside for picks in a range where the pick might not be even better than the player you're giving up?

Right.

Even though I've talked about the ramifications of trading some of our guys, I'm somewhat content with who we have with the exception that we have to upgrade the PF with a big, mobile athlete who will be able to stretch the floor at some point in his career.

I don't want to trade Dinwiddie because unless you're drafting top 7 in the lotto, you're almost assuredly not getting a PG with the physical tools and skills he has, which are now being complemented by the confidence he needed to succeed at this level. I need to see an elite skill from a potential PG we'd end up drafting to replace Dinwiddie in order for me to entertain trading him.

For me, the only reasons why I'm open to trading RHJ are: 1) our need at PF is greater than SF IMO and 2) his contract situation will force us to commit to him being a part of the core of the future before I'm comfortable with settling on this set of players. In other words, it has nothing to do with RHJ the player/talent and everything to do with him possibly being a victim of circumstances.

We have to remember (IIRC) that RHJ was an end of lottery pick on a number of mock drafts. A lot of people saw the defense and we're just debating how much he'd develop on offense. Now in he interim period, individual half court defense has decreased in value but RHJ has also beat expectations for his offensive ceiling. In the end, he's right about where (or maybe a tad higher) a number of people expected him to be at a few years removed from his draft.

If Marks can find a bigger and at least as athletic 4 with end of lotto talent, maybe you pull the trigger. But you still have to ask who said player is, what is their temperament, are they injury prone, etc.

Trading RHJ isn't an easy decision and it shouldn't be considering how much he's improved.
It'll be interesting to see if any leaks come out regarding how much his camp wants. If they look at Crabbe as a starting point, we're in BIG trouble with negotiations lol.

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[jirrit]

Gotta give credit when it's due. Turning Zeller into a (eventhough protected) second rounder is pretty awesome lol.

[LKIRNets]

No, we don't. Milwaukee at this point was playing the most aggressive PNR D in the league by a mile. We play it the complete opposite way.

We play it according to personel.

James Webb was top locking and our guards ran guards off the 3 point line.

RHJ doesnt play it like that and he'd be perfect in that role. Acy doesn't either. It's not our base PNR defense. Kenny isn't changing all of our schemes for James Webb.

He doesn't b/c the big isn't mobile. The SnR D we play was what it was b/c we were accounting for bigs so they wouldn't get beat back door. James Webb is one that can play this type of D and Kenny has trusted to do so. Rashad clearly can. Marks is starting to target press type defenders from what I'm seeing.

Names like McCaw, Winslow, Roberts have been floated around.

[MrDollarBills]

Draft picks have their highest value before the draft because teams much prefer to have the choice to draft whomever is available they want. Every team thinks they're draft pick was a sleeper or their player will end up being more valuable than the draft pick spot they were selected at.

A top 5 will always have high value because draft pick slots correlate (to a degree) with the success of a player's career.

No team is giving up a top 5 for a non-star player because they don't want to give up the freedom/eligibility to select a top player with high potential who's guaranteed to be on their team for 7+ years if they so choose.

While there's no guarantee that your pick will become a star, the best players from previous drafts still tend to correlate with higher draft slots. It's still exceedingly rare to draft a superstar from the teens; that's not the case for a top 5 pick.

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This is my point. Why would we give up young players with upside for picks in a range where the pick might not be even better than the player you're giving up?

Right.

Even though I've talked about the ramifications of trading some of our guys, I'm somewhat content with who we have with the exception that we have to upgrade the PF with a big, mobile athlete who will be able to stretch the floor at some point in his career.

I don't want to trade Dinwiddie because unless you're drafting top 7 in the lotto, you're almost assuredly not getting a PG with the physical tools and skills he has, which are now being complemented by the confidence he needed to succeed at this level. I need to see an elite skill from a potential PG we'd end up drafting to replace Dinwiddie in order for me to entertain trading him.

For me, the only reasons why I'm open to trading RHJ are: 1) our need at PF is greater than SF IMO and 2) his contract situation will force us to commit to him being a part of the core of the future before I'm comfortable with settling on this set of players. In other words, it has nothing to do with RHJ the player/talent and everything to do with him possibly being a victim of circumstances.

We have to remember (IIRC) that RHJ was an end of lottery pick on a number of mock drafts. A lot of people saw the defense and we're just debating how much he'd develop on offense. Now in he interim period, individual half court defense has decreased in value but RHJ has also beat expectations for his offensive ceiling. In the end, he's right about where (or maybe a tad higher) a number of people expected him to be at a few years removed from his draft.

If Marks can find a bigger and at least as athletic 4 with end of lotto talent, maybe you pull the trigger. But you still have to ask who said player is, what is their temperament, are they injury prone, etc.

Trading RHJ isn't an easy decision and it shouldn't be considering how much he's improved.
It'll be interesting to see if any leaks come out regarding how much his camp wants. If they look at Crabbe as a starting point, we're in BIG trouble with negotiations lol.

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If RHJ is looking for Crabbe money, well then yeah we'd have to cut bait. That's also the case with Spencer Dinwiddie who might bet on himself and hit free agency to see if he can get more than 4/40.

That being said, trading Dinwiddie for a pick would be nuts at this point unless you're sure whoever is coming in can bring equal value or exceed it. I say the same for RHJ, Russell, LeVert, and Allen as well. If we're packaging players to bring in all star talent, that's fine. But trading guys for picks in the teens and twenties is a non starter.

I think it all does come down to what Prok said, being careful about who we pay and what the cost is before we become a capped out team. If it comes down to cost and we can't feasibly keep everyone without having disastrous cap implications, obviously the smart thing would be to retain Russell/LeVert/Allen and use our 2019 pick to replace RHJ. Not something I'd be happy with but if RHJ somehow gets 20 million on the open market offers we'd have to say good bye.

[kamaze]

So you guys are willing to trade for Aaron Gordon and signing him to a max extension?

I'm not.
They could use another talented power forward oops they added James Webb III. When Rhondae comes back Kenny may be able to play him and JW3 together eventually. Webb's already a hawk on defense if he starts shooting better (more time with LI Nets to get comfortable shooting) watch out.

They also have the rights to 6'9 Aleksandar Vezenkov

Watch on YouTube

[treiz]

Crazy how this guy was signed incredibly late into the offseason, with people wanting Sullinger over him, and now Marks has turned him into a player with upside + a 2nd round pick?

Insane value.

[ChokeFasncists]

Meanwhile Sully is averaging 31 and 17 in China

Maybe sign him next year and then flip him for another pick midseason.

Can Kenny work his magic and turn Shad Vaughn (Jacque's son?) into another Spencer Dinwiddie?

There might be too many shooting wings on the roster for that to happen.

He's still young, but this could be his last chance, he'd better grab it.

Marks and King can't be more different, pretty much diametrically the opposite in terms of picks/young talents.

Would be interesting in this year's draft, maybe trade up with so many 2nd rounders?

Jar time!

That's China. Competition isn't that serious over there.

Yeah, sure. But it doesn't mean he won't be about as good as Zeller and can be flipped for a pick next midseason.

It shows how amazing the Marksman is as well. His first choices are good, and the guys he cuts do well also, like Yogi.