Nets Going Forward: Planning for Next Season

[vincecarter4pres]

Are you really under the illusion that Allen has more value in the league than Levert?

Theres even a hoopshype article calling him a potential "third star."

You don't trade that for two 8th men. No thanks.

There’s articles that say injecting bleach cures the coronavirus, just sayin’!

I think Allen has at least equal trade value to Caris league wide, yes.

And I think Allen has superior on court value to us and most teams in the league.

Using confirmation bias from an article’s title isn’t relevant to the conversation imho. In that same article 5 of the 9 spoken to said trade him and a couple even said he makes no sense here in relation to the current Brooklyn roster. Hell, 2 of the 4 who said keep him, also said then, that he should be the 6xth man, which is what I said if he is retained.

LOL ok bro.

I think a sourced article is more reliable than some insane conspiracy theory. Pretty dumb comparison.

Its not "confirmation" bias there has been a ton of reporting about how Levert could be used as the center piece of a trade for another All Star. People are not talking that way about Allen. Sorry.

They said to trade him because of fit, not his value. Same with coming off the bench.

That was just a joke to make a point lol.

And I'm not taking it all that serious, but you honestly do deflect a lot. I had already read the article, but I pulled it up again to confirm what I remembered, I was quoting the article. 5 of 9 say to trade him. Some because of fit, a couple said he isn't and won't be a star. 2 who said keep him said he should be the 6xth man.

My thing is, even if he's successful after he's traded, if he's traded, that will not be an, "I told you so!", moment for me. I'm not saying he's a bad player, in fact I'm saying the opposite, he's currently good/starting level/main 6xth man, yet still has potential for further growth. But you guys seem to love ignoring the fit, the need for him to have the ball in his hands to get the most impact and numbers out of him, the mediocre defense, the completely giving up on the play on D the last 3 games of the playoffs this year, poor efficiency and questionable shooting ability, especially off ball.

Again though, I digress, because I believe he will be relatively successful in his next destination and I'm fine with that. I'm not rooting for him to fail if he gets traded, I'm not rooting for him to fail at all. But there's nothing wrong with trading him for the right player(s) to maximize the rest of this roster for the next 2 to 4 years, that which is our current window of contention. And there's nothing wrong with trading Caris to a scenario where he's able to show what he's really got.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Why can't we pay Jarrett? The Nets would be making a critical error if they think DeAndre Jordan is going to be a reliable option at center for the length of his contract. The Allen we saw here during the restart was a stud. We need to keep him unless we are being offered a can't miss deal

KD and Kyrie have made it clear they want Jordan starting. Jackie McMullon's recent article stated this as well.

Allen is amazing but hes simply too good to be a backup C and we will not be able to pay him after this season.

I think we should sell high and acquire a really good 3 & D type player for him.

There’s really no rush. However, I’d look at a swap for Covington if Houston moves on from D’antoni. I’m not dealing Allen for anyone less.

No rush, but his value is at its highest right now.

Covington or any other wing defender. I would do it for Otto Porter too or Marcus Smart.

[vincecarter4pres]

Allen is not seen as a potential "third star" by other teams.

Scoring guards are more valuable in the league than rim running bigs who can't shoot.

Whether you like LeVert or not, he definitely has more value trade wise than Allen.

Allen has been very good but done nothing to show star potential.

Doesn’t need to score a lot of points to be a star big man, especially nowadays. A big that can play elite defense, crash the glass, and finish around the rim at an elite level has star potential, and you’re just not being honest if you’re saying Allen hasn’t shown that.

Allen cannot play elite defense. Thats ridiculous lol.

He got absolutely bodied by Embiid last year. Not saying hes bad, but he is not a great rim protector yet.

Allen is 22 years old. Big men almost always take longer to develop and he's already turned the corner to an undeniably good defender, with switching, recovery and some perimeter ability, at least on other bigs. He has great timing on blocks, active hands, has started to get lower when face guarding and more often then not, knows where to be. He's becoming more vocal on quarterbacking the D too. His rebounding is elite on both ends.

All this leads to believe, it's not, "ridiculous lol", that he can become an elite defender, and become that soon.

Getting bodied by Embiid isn't really some damning evidence, he bodies a majority of the league, including other elite big men, top defensive big men and top defensive teams. He just averaged 30/12 a game with 15 FTA's a game against an elite defense.

[therealbig3]

Maybe saying he’s a 3 and D guy was a bit much, but if you watched Curry in these playoffs the guy hustles, plays smart defense, understands team defensive concepts and rotations, was often times intentionally matched up with Paul George and sometimes switched onto Kawhi Leonard and held his own, and honestly I never really saw him get beat off the dribble...moves his feet well and stays in front of his man.

He’s an above average defender at the PG position who I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable with at all being a primary defender on opposing 1s and 2s, and obviously nobody is disputing the shooting...but he’s a lot more than just a shooter, he’s a legit playmaker on offense who can create off the dribble.

So fine, he’s not a defensive stopper, but he’s solid and definitely better than Levert. And offensively, he’s way more efficient and just fits better next to two high usage players.

Obviously Levert is more talented. But he’s never put together a sustained stretch of good play. It’s usually a bunch of awful play followed up by a hot stretch of games. And even on his best day, I wouldn’t want him ever taking primacy over Kyrie or Durant...so who would serve that tertiary role better, one of the best shooters in the league who can also initiate plays and isn’t a total negative on defense, or Levert?

[vincecarter4pres]

KD and Kyrie have made it clear they want Jordan starting. Jackie McMullon's recent article stated this as well.

Allen is amazing but hes simply too good to be a backup C and we will not be able to pay him after this season.

I think we should sell high and acquire a really good 3 & D type player for him.

There’s really no rush. However, I’d look at a swap for Covington if Houston moves on from D’antoni. I’m not dealing Allen for anyone less.

No rush, but his value is at its highest right now.

Covington or any other wing defender. I would do it for Otto Porter too or Marcus Smart.

You would trade Allen, with a year left of late 1st round rookie scale and then restricted free agency, for Otto Porter, on an expiring max contract whose then unrestricted, but not Caris for Jrue Holiday, Bradley Beal, etc.? Porter isn't even anything more than an average-ish defender these days anyway and has never been an elite one, he just mistakenly got that label imo.

Also, Marcus Smart is alright, but his shooting and efficiency is just tragic. I'd like him, but not at the cost of Allen, or Dinwiddie, or Caris tbh.

Even Covington has become epically overrated since a couple years ago imho. The last 3 or 4 seasons his outside shooting and overall shooting and efficiency has went from a hair over average to mediocre. And yet you were killing Spencer for his shooting recently. And don't get me wrong, I think Covington and Smart are good players, but people get out of hand with them recently. I'm not even stuck on stats, but you got guys shooting 42% from the field, 33% from deep, not getting to the line, can barely dribble without turning the ball over and scoring 11 a game on crap efficiency as a 4th option next to true stars and they're lauded as total game changers cause they're good defenders.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I address everything you say, no matter how nonsensical it is, and I'm quite frankly tired of it. Don't make up bs by throwing in fancy terms to disguise what you're really doing.

Love was never that good of a player, and with Lebron & Kyrie gone, he still can't average 20 PPG. Bosh was a very good player in Toronto, but never an elite level scorer, which is fine as he was a PF. Bosh adjusted extremely well next to two high usage guys in Lebron & Wade, and still gave them close to 20 a game with high level defense and stretch big ability. So that big 3 absolutely worked, and no one has said otherwise. What you do have to explain to me is which big 3 in recent memory actually failed, because as far as I can see, they all won championships. Whether its the Celtics with KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen, or Miami Heatles or the Warriors (with or without KD). People had to sacrifice their numbers, but they achieved the end goal of winning championships. I personally wouldn't care if Beal averages 25 or 20 as a "glorified Jordan Clarkson", as long as we win a championship.

For the last time, last season, Klay averaged 21.7 PPG next to KD (26 PPG), and Steph Curry (27.3 PPG). That actually comes out to an average of 25 PPG for the top 3 scorers on the team. But go ahead, keep ignoring that. Again, Klay is an elite off ball player, but Beal is the more talented scorer, and can actually lead a unit (bench guys for example) by himself. Beal just finished 2nd to only James Harden in scoring. Klay has never averaged 25 a game in his life.

Beal has been an above average defender in his career so saying that he can only be "below average at best" is false. Is Beal going to be an elite defender? No. But evidence exists that he has been a solid defender for most of his NBA career, and its only this season where he had a dramatic drop on that end. And that coincides with previously explained factors, and there's no reason to believe that he can't get back to being a good defender with decreased workload, and more motivation (contending for a title as opposed to playing on a surefire lotto team).

Fancy BS terms???

Sorry you can't understand basic English bro.

Love was never that good of a player? Complete nonsense. He puts up just as good stats as Beal on a better Wolves team before getting traded.

In face, he made All NBA twice before getting traded, something Beal has never done.

He also made 3 All Star teams, compared to 2 for Beal. His final year he was putting up 26/13/4 on better efficiency that Beal lol.

Also Love's skills have diminished now so its a pretty dumb argument to compare him now to the player he was in Minnesota.

Bosh was good but did not come close to replicating his numbers in Toronto and basically played like a spot up shooter/role player. Miami would have been better served with high level role players.

There are plenty of Big 3s that did not work also. Kidd/Carter/Jefferson on our own team.

Celtics Big 3, had KG who was primarily a defensive player who even won DPOY. Something Beal is NOT.

As far as the 25 PPG argument, you're now completely changing your argument cause you know I'm right. 25 PPG average over 3 players?

You were originally trying to say Beal would average 25 PPG by himself or "close to it." An absurd claim which we both know is not true.

Klay could definitely average 25 PPG if he needed to be a high volume scorer. He just hasn't had to do that because hes far more valuable doing what he does. His efficiency is leagues and bounds better than Beal for a reason.

I don't know if Beal is an "above average" defender at some point in his career. He certainly is a terrible one now which is what matters. Certainly not the type of one that Klay or KG were.

I can speak English fine, and I also know when someone is trying way too hard to sound smart.

Kevin Love was labeled as an empty stats player with the Wolves, and that assessment turned out to be correct. Kevin Love is/was a good player, but never as good as the numbers he put up on the Wolves. The difference is that Beal has been on playoffs teams from early in his career, and has played well in playoffs, so its not a question mark about him. And Beal has only gotten better since then.

I didn't change the argument, the point was to show that it is entirely possible to have 3 guys roughly averaging 25 PPG on one team. Math indicates that there are "enough shots to go around". Once again, I'm not surprised that you're unable to grasp basic logic there.

Klay's efficiency is also not "leagues and bounds better than Beal", that's just more bs by you. Matter of fact, Beal's 30 PPG had higher TS% than Klay's last season.

And you don't know if Beal was an above average defender at some point in his career? Either check the metrics for previous years and/or watch video evidence. The main reasons for his defense falling off are pretty obvious, as explained.

I'm not trying "way too hard" to sound smart. This is the way I always write. I'm not going to dumb myself down because its makes you feel insecure.

If Kevin Love was a wasted empty stats player on the Wolves then what was Beal? Beal has been on the playoffs because of John Wall and because he played in the East. If you put Love w/ Wall in the East of course hes making the playoffs too.

22 pts is nout "roughly" averaging 25 ppg. Sorry thats not the same thing. Thats basically what Dinwddie averaged last year

Beal is not a good defender, no matter how hard you try to pretend he was. He is not anything like Klay, and thus your comparison is dubious. Sorry. Try better next time.

[vincecarter4pres]

Maybe saying he’s a 3 and D guy was a bit much, but if you watched Curry in these playoffs the guy hustles, plays smart defense, understands team defensive concepts and rotations, was often times intentionally matched up with Paul George and sometimes switched onto Kawhi Leonard and held his own, and honestly I never really saw him get beat off the dribble...moves his feet well and stays in front of his man.

He’s an above average defender at the PG position who I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable with at all being a primary defender on opposing 1s and 2s, and obviously nobody is disputing the shooting...but he’s a lot more than just a shooter, he’s a legit playmaker on offense who can create off the dribble.

So fine, he’s not a defensive stopper, but he’s solid and definitely better than Levert. And offensively, he’s way more efficient and just fits better next to two high usage players.

Obviously Levert is more talented. But he’s never put together a sustained stretch of good play. It’s usually a bunch of awful play followed up by a hot stretch of games. And even on his best day, I wouldn’t want him ever taking primacy over Kyrie or Durant...so who would serve that tertiary role better, one of the best shooters in the league who can also initiate plays and isn’t a total negative on defense, or Levert?

I was going to quote your original post and say you're about to get killed for your hot take of saying Curry was better(at least for this team) then Caris and say, I thought it was only a lukewarm take.

But then you basically called him elite 3&D and I'm like, I got to let this one run it's course lol.

This post is more what I would agree on Curry. Slightly above average on D, fully capable of being put on 1's and 2's and can occasionally slide to the 3 against the right guy/team.

Elite shooter, can also create off the bounce.

Highly underrated guy, probably because of a few things, including when he came in the league he was pretty much only a shooter at the NBA level, comparisons to Steph just because of his name and question marks on defense just because he looks like a guy who can't.

I'd definitely be OK with it, if Marks traded Caris for him and Kleiber if we couldn't land one of the big names we were after.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I think Seth Curry has more on court value as a player than Caris Levert.

Complete and utter delusion. We just saw LeVert lead us to a winning record in the bubble while putting up over 26 PPG on good efficiency.

Curry couldn't do that in his sleep.

We were 5-7 in the bubble. how is that a winning record?

Curry as a non #1 option certainly has a case for more on-court value than levert. Levert wont be taking 18-20 shots and being a #1 or #2 option in the future.

Curry average 13 points on 45% from three for a dallas team that had 2 primary stars. He showed he could both star alongside them or provide bench scoring this year. With KD/Kyrie he is probably a much better fit.

I'm not counting the Toronto series. Should have clarified as pre-playoffs.

How do you know he can't fulfill that role if hes never had the chance to do it? Seems like a lot of assuming on your part.

Hes a far better scorer than Curry. And can play with the 2nd unit if need be. That's more valuable than a player who is just an 8th man shooter type.

[therealbig3]

Complete and utter delusion. We just saw LeVert lead us to a winning record in the bubble while putting up over 26 PPG on good efficiency.

Curry couldn't do that in his sleep.

We were 5-7 in the bubble. how is that a winning record?

Curry as a non #1 option certainly has a case for more on-court value than levert. Levert wont be taking 18-20 shots and being a #1 or #2 option in the future.

Curry average 13 points on 45% from three for a dallas team that had 2 primary stars. He showed he could both star alongside them or provide bench scoring this year. With KD/Kyrie he is probably a much better fit.

I'm not counting the Toronto series. Should have clarified as pre-playoffs.

How do you know he can't fulfill that role if hes never had the chance to do it? Seems like a lot of assuming on your part.

Hes a far better scorer than Curry. And can play with the 2nd unit if need be. That's more valuable than a player who is just an 8th man shooter type.

Give me something Caris is elite at that doesn’t solely rely on him having the ball in his hands. We’ve all watched him play. He hasn’t shown the skill level to be able to fit next to other high usage players.

And you’re kind of doubling down on something that everyone kind of knows is BS at this point, that Curry is JUST an 8th man shooter type. Like, we watched the playoffs man. If that’s your impression of Curry after what he did consistently throughout that first round series while often times being defended by two elite defensive wings and an elite overall defense, idk what to tell you.

[Hello Brooklyn]

There’s articles that say injecting bleach cures the coronavirus, just sayin’!

I think Allen has at least equal trade value to Caris league wide, yes.

And I think Allen has superior on court value to us and most teams in the league.

Using confirmation bias from an article’s title isn’t relevant to the conversation imho. In that same article 5 of the 9 spoken to said trade him and a couple even said he makes no sense here in relation to the current Brooklyn roster. Hell, 2 of the 4 who said keep him, also said then, that he should be the 6xth man, which is what I said if he is retained.

LOL ok bro.

I think a sourced article is more reliable than some insane conspiracy theory. Pretty dumb comparison.

Its not "confirmation" bias there has been a ton of reporting about how Levert could be used as the center piece of a trade for another All Star. People are not talking that way about Allen. Sorry.

They said to trade him because of fit, not his value. Same with coming off the bench.

That was just a joke to make a point lol.

And I'm not taking it all that serious, but you honestly do deflect a lot. I had already read the article, but I pulled it up again to confirm what I remembered, I was quoting the article. 5 of 9 say to trade him. Some because of fit, a couple said he isn't and won't be a star. 2 who said keep him said he should be the 6xth man.

My thing is, even if he's successful after he's traded, if he's traded, that will not be an, "I told you so!", moment for me. I'm not saying he's a bad player, in fact I'm saying the opposite, he's currently good/starting level/main 6xth man, yet still has potential for further growth. But you guys seem to love ignoring the fit, the need for him to have the ball in his hands to get the most impact and numbers out of him, the mediocre defense, the completely giving up on the play on D the last 3 games of the playoffs this year, poor efficiency and questionable shooting ability, especially off ball.

Again though, I digress, because I believe he will be relatively successful in his next destination and I'm fine with that. I'm not rooting for him to fail if he gets traded, I'm not rooting for him to fail at all. But there's nothing wrong with trading him for the right player(s) to maximize the rest of this roster for the next 2 to 4 years, that which is our current window of contention. And there's nothing wrong with trading Caris to a scenario where he's able to show what he's really got.

I'm not going to blame Caris for not playing great D or having bad efficiency when he was playing one of the best teams in the NBA and he was the only offensive option. The team was decimated to G League level.

You guys keep saying Levert doesn't have the ability to play off Kyrie & KD and yet hes never had the chance to do so. Do I really think its impossible for Levert to adjust his game to playing off ball and focusing more on defense? I really don't,

But even if you're right and he has to come off the bench and play a Lou Will type role, I still think thats a really good outcome for the team.

I'm not opposed out of principle to trading Caris. I just don't see the need. He has no ego, is on a good contract and provide a third scoring option.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Doesn’t need to score a lot of points to be a star big man, especially nowadays. A big that can play elite defense, crash the glass, and finish around the rim at an elite level has star potential, and you’re just not being honest if you’re saying Allen hasn’t shown that.

Allen cannot play elite defense. Thats ridiculous lol.

He got absolutely bodied by Embiid last year. Not saying hes bad, but he is not a great rim protector yet.

Allen is 22 years old. Big men almost always take longer to develop and he's already turned the corner to an undeniably good defender, with switching, recovery and some perimeter ability, at least on other bigs. He has great timing on blocks, active hands, has started to get lower when face guarding and more often then not, knows where to be. He's becoming more vocal on quarterbacking the D too. His rebounding is elite on both ends.

All this leads to believe, it's not, "ridiculous lol", that he can become an elite defender, and become that soon.

Getting bodied by Embiid isn't really some damning evidence, he bodies a majority of the league, including other elite big men, top defensive big men and top defensive teams. He just averaged 30/12 a game with 15 FTA's a game against an elite defense.

I agree big men take a while to develop.

Allen needs to add a lot more strength and size to be considered an elite defender.

I didn't say hes not a good defender. Or that he can't become elite. But hes certainly not elite right now.

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Maybe saying he’s a 3 and D guy was a bit much, but if you watched Curry in these playoffs the guy hustles, plays smart defense, understands team defensive concepts and rotations, was often times intentionally matched up with Paul George and sometimes switched onto Kawhi Leonard and held his own, and honestly I never really saw him get beat off the dribble...moves his feet well and stays in front of his man.

He’s an above average defender at the PG position who I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable with at all being a primary defender on opposing 1s and 2s, and obviously nobody is disputing the shooting...but he’s a lot more than just a shooter, he’s a legit playmaker on offense who can create off the dribble.

So fine, he’s not a defensive stopper, but he’s solid and definitely better than Levert. And offensively, he’s way more efficient and just fits better next to two high usage players.

Obviously Levert is more talented. But he’s never put together a sustained stretch of good play. It’s usually a bunch of awful play followed up by a hot stretch of games. And even on his best day, I wouldn’t want him ever taking primacy over Kyrie or Durant...so who would serve that tertiary role better, one of the best shooters in the league who can also initiate plays and isn’t a total negative on defense, or Levert?

Hes a good player. And hes certainly not a terrible defender.

But I don't think hes good by any means. Or even above average.

He can create a little offense and do some play making here and there. But hes mostly a shooter in my view.

Levert can also do playmaking. And I think Levert can be better than him defensively if hes locked in and not having to do everything defensively. He has the size to do it.

Again the Levert "never doing it for a sustained" stretch is because of his injuries the last few years. Which hopefully will not keep happening.

Guys like Curry are not hard to find. He wasn't even really playing not too long ago. I'm sure we could find an 8th man type through the draft or free agency w/o giving up assets.

[therealbig3]

I didn’t say he was elite, I said he’s shown that he can play elite defense. You said he’s never shown the potential to be a star, which I don’t think makes sense given the fact that he HAS shown flashes of elite defense, he IS an elite rebounder, and he IS an elite finisher.

[kamaze]

Are you really under the illusion that Allen has more value in the league than Levert?

Theres even a hoopshype article calling him a potential "third star."

You don't trade that for two 8th men. No thanks.

Why can't Allen have more value in the league than Levert? He's way younger, still on his rookie deal, not injury prone, and has been a decent starting center in his young career with good upside. Levert has "potential third star" hype, because Levert is seen as a scoring guard, while Allen isn't a scorer.

Allen is not seen as a potential "third star" by other teams.

Scoring guards are more valuable in the league than rim running bigs who can't shoot.

Whether you like LeVert or not, he definitely has more value trade wise than Allen.

Allen has been very good but done nothing to show star potential.

Big jay is much more than a rim runner he's known for being a shot blocker.

In the bubble his mobility was utilized to cover perimeter players which was impressive. Hes also a good help defender for his teammates when they get beat off the dribble constantly.

[Hello Brooklyn]

There’s really no rush. However, I’d look at a swap for Covington if Houston moves on from D’antoni. I’m not dealing Allen for anyone less.

No rush, but his value is at its highest right now.

Covington or any other wing defender. I would do it for Otto Porter too or Marcus Smart.

You would trade Allen, with a year left of late 1st round rookie scale and then restricted free agency, for Otto Porter, on an expiring max contract whose then unrestricted, but not Caris for Jrue Holiday, Bradley Beal, etc.? Porter isn't even anything more than an average-ish defender these days anyway and has never been an elite one, he just mistakenly got that label imo.

Also, Marcus Smart is alright, but his shooting and efficiency is just tragic. I'd like him, but not at the cost of Allen, or Dinwiddie, or Caris tbh.

Even Covington has become epically overrated since a couple years ago imho. The last 3 or 4 seasons his outside shooting and overall shooting and efficiency has went from a hair over average to mediocre. And yet you were killing Spencer for his shooting recently. And don't get me wrong, I think Covington and Smart are good players, but people get out of hand with them recently. I'm not even stuck on stats, but you got guys shooting 42% from the field, 33% from deep, not getting to the line, can barely dribble without turning the ball over and scoring 11 a game on crap efficiency as a 4th option next to true stars and they're lauded as total game changers cause they're good defenders.

Maybe I'm wrong on Otto Porter. Have not watched a lot of Bulls to be honest.

Smart does take bad shots, but hes one of the best defenders in the NBA. He would be huge in a playoff series against one of the Superstar perimeter players.

I just don't see how Allen can help that much if Jordan is plugged in as the starter. He's overqualified for a bench role. And 6th men roles are best for scoring guards, not big men.

Covington's shooting has been rough with Hou. But hes been a good enough shooter in the past for me to think he can do it again. Spencer has never really been a good 3 pt shooter in his career.

But more importantly, Covington is a wing defender that we don't have on the roster. That's one of my main concerns. Defense.

[vincecarter4pres]

Allen cannot play elite defense. Thats ridiculous lol.

He got absolutely bodied by Embiid last year. Not saying hes bad, but he is not a great rim protector yet.

Allen is 22 years old. Big men almost always take longer to develop and he's already turned the corner to an undeniably good defender, with switching, recovery and some perimeter ability, at least on other bigs. He has great timing on blocks, active hands, has started to get lower when face guarding and more often then not, knows where to be. He's becoming more vocal on quarterbacking the D too. His rebounding is elite on both ends.

All this leads to believe, it's not, "ridiculous lol", that he can become an elite defender, and become that soon.

Getting bodied by Embiid isn't really some damning evidence, he bodies a majority of the league, including other elite big men, top defensive big men and top defensive teams. He just averaged 30/12 a game with 15 FTA's a game against an elite defense.

I agree big men take a while to develop.

Allen needs to add a lot more strength and size to be considered an elite defender.

I didn't say hes not a good defender. Or that he can't become elite. But hes certainly not elite right now.

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

I don't know man, I just find this incredibly disingenuous, or that you're inclined to heavily put the blinders on when you say this stuff about Caris as if it hasn't been his entire career he's been inefficient and most of it where his D has been pretty bad, but then you say stuff like this about Allen...

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Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

And I know neither of us is saying Allen is elite, and both of us are saying he's good, but you'll base a guy's entire worth and defensive skill level off one player he has a lot of trouble with(not that Embiid is literally the only one), yet you'll move bridges, backflip through venomous snakes and land planes blindfolded to challenge the ideas that Caris is inefficient, a below average defender, literally visibly through effort and body language gave up on defending anyone at all in 3 straight playoff games and is primarily an on ball, high usage player.

I'm fine if he's our Ginobili or Lou Williams, but also you have to admit, those 2 guys specifically were and are, worlds better and more efficient then current LeVert. Like you're talking about a lock HOFer, who if had the physical durability to have started and played big minutes his whole career, would have been a year in/year out 20/5/5 guy on great efficiency, who also made all the hustle plays and played above average D and a guy whose been one of the best, most efficient 6xth men in the league for 5 to 7 years.

I get games aren't played on a stat sheet, but unless Caris can all of a sudden stay healthy, all of a sudden become a great shooter, especially off-ball; all of a sudden become an above average defender and actually recommit to giving effort 100% of the time on that side and all of a sudden gain even more weight and strength without losing speed; and all these things at the same time, he's going to be good, but there will be a very limited cap on his upside, even in that role.

You talk about trading Allen while his value is at a high, well that's exactly what I think Marks should do with Caris if the right deal presents itself.

[DarkXaero]

Fancy BS terms???

Sorry you can't understand basic English bro.

Love was never that good of a player? Complete nonsense. He puts up just as good stats as Beal on a better Wolves team before getting traded.

In face, he made All NBA twice before getting traded, something Beal has never done.

He also made 3 All Star teams, compared to 2 for Beal. His final year he was putting up 26/13/4 on better efficiency that Beal lol.

Also Love's skills have diminished now so its a pretty dumb argument to compare him now to the player he was in Minnesota.

Bosh was good but did not come close to replicating his numbers in Toronto and basically played like a spot up shooter/role player. Miami would have been better served with high level role players.

There are plenty of Big 3s that did not work also. Kidd/Carter/Jefferson on our own team.

Celtics Big 3, had KG who was primarily a defensive player who even won DPOY. Something Beal is NOT.

As far as the 25 PPG argument, you're now completely changing your argument cause you know I'm right. 25 PPG average over 3 players?

You were originally trying to say Beal would average 25 PPG by himself or "close to it." An absurd claim which we both know is not true.

Klay could definitely average 25 PPG if he needed to be a high volume scorer. He just hasn't had to do that because hes far more valuable doing what he does. His efficiency is leagues and bounds better than Beal for a reason.

I don't know if Beal is an "above average" defender at some point in his career. He certainly is a terrible one now which is what matters. Certainly not the type of one that Klay or KG were.

I can speak English fine, and I also know when someone is trying way too hard to sound smart.

Kevin Love was labeled as an empty stats player with the Wolves, and that assessment turned out to be correct. Kevin Love is/was a good player, but never as good as the numbers he put up on the Wolves. The difference is that Beal has been on playoffs teams from early in his career, and has played well in playoffs, so its not a question mark about him. And Beal has only gotten better since then.

I didn't change the argument, the point was to show that it is entirely possible to have 3 guys roughly averaging 25 PPG on one team. Math indicates that there are "enough shots to go around". Once again, I'm not surprised that you're unable to grasp basic logic there.

Klay's efficiency is also not "leagues and bounds better than Beal", that's just more bs by you. Matter of fact, Beal's 30 PPG had higher TS% than Klay's last season.

And you don't know if Beal was an above average defender at some point in his career? Either check the metrics for previous years and/or watch video evidence. The main reasons for his defense falling off are pretty obvious, as explained.

I'm not trying "way too hard" to sound smart. This is the way I always write. I'm not going to dumb myself down because its makes you feel insecure.

If Kevin Love was a wasted empty stats player on the Wolves then what was Beal? Beal has been on the playoffs because of John Wall and because he played in the East. If you put Love w/ Wall in the East of course hes making the playoffs too.

22 pts is nout "roughly" averaging 25 ppg. Sorry thats not the same thing. Thats basically what Dinwddie averaged last year

Beal is not a good defender, no matter how hard you try to pretend he was. He is not anything like Klay, and thus your comparison is dubious. Sorry. Try better next time.

Okay guy, I believe you, you totally don't drop random vocabulary words when trying to be condescending to me

What kind of stupid ass damage control is that about Beal? Beal has played in 40 playoffs games in his career, averaging 23 PPG. His numbers actually went up in the playoffs compared to his regular season averages, that's the opposite of Kevin Love who actually shrunk on the big stage.

"22 pts is nout "roughly" averaging 25 ppg."-I'm not getting into another dumb semantics argument with you. Your lack of reading comprehension isn't my problem.

"Beal is not a good defender, no matter how hard you try to pretend he was. He is not anything like Klay, and thus your comparison is dubious."-I think I've been pretty factual and honest about Beal's defense in his NBA career so far. Not my problem that you can't do your research, and then come at me with your stupid opinions instead of well researched arguments.

"Sorry. Try better next time."- Something a troll would write.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I can speak English fine, and I also know when someone is trying way too hard to sound smart.

Kevin Love was labeled as an empty stats player with the Wolves, and that assessment turned out to be correct. Kevin Love is/was a good player, but never as good as the numbers he put up on the Wolves. The difference is that Beal has been on playoffs teams from early in his career, and has played well in playoffs, so its not a question mark about him. And Beal has only gotten better since then.

I didn't change the argument, the point was to show that it is entirely possible to have 3 guys roughly averaging 25 PPG on one team. Math indicates that there are "enough shots to go around". Once again, I'm not surprised that you're unable to grasp basic logic there.

Klay's efficiency is also not "leagues and bounds better than Beal", that's just more bs by you. Matter of fact, Beal's 30 PPG had higher TS% than Klay's last season.

And you don't know if Beal was an above average defender at some point in his career? Either check the metrics for previous years and/or watch video evidence. The main reasons for his defense falling off are pretty obvious, as explained.

I'm not trying "way too hard" to sound smart. This is the way I always write. I'm not going to dumb myself down because its makes you feel insecure.

If Kevin Love was a wasted empty stats player on the Wolves then what was Beal? Beal has been on the playoffs because of John Wall and because he played in the East. If you put Love w/ Wall in the East of course hes making the playoffs too.

22 pts is nout "roughly" averaging 25 ppg. Sorry thats not the same thing. Thats basically what Dinwddie averaged last year

Beal is not a good defender, no matter how hard you try to pretend he was. He is not anything like Klay, and thus your comparison is dubious. Sorry. Try better next time.

Okay guy, I believe you, you totally don't drop random vocabulary words when trying to be condescending to me

What kind of stupid ass damage control is that about Beal? Beal has played in 40 playoffs games in his career, averaging 23 PPG. His numbers actually went up in the playoffs compared to his regular season averages, that's the opposite of Kevin Love who actually shrunk on the big stage.

"22 pts is nout "roughly" averaging 25 ppg."-I'm not getting into another dumb semantics argument with you. Your lack of reading comprehension isn't my problem.

"Beal is not a good defender, no matter how hard you try to pretend he was. He is not anything like Klay, and thus your comparison is dubious."-I think I've been pretty factual and honest about Beal's defense in his NBA career so far. Not my problem that you can't do your research, and then come at me with your stupid opinions instead of well researched arguments.

"Sorry. Try better next time."- Something a troll would write.

You're honestly an idiot for accusing me of "dropping random vocabulary words" because you're too stupid to understand basic English.

I'm in law school right now and am constantly writing. The idea that I need to "look up words" is such a nonsensical insinuation, that it's not even worth responding to.

And I'm not going to engage with a moron like you any further if you're gonna say dumb **** like that rather than focus on my argument.

[ProspectPark]

We were 5-7 in the bubble. how is that a winning record?

Curry as a non #1 option certainly has a case for more on-court value than levert. Levert wont be taking 18-20 shots and being a #1 or #2 option in the future.

Curry average 13 points on 45% from three for a dallas team that had 2 primary stars. He showed he could both star alongside them or provide bench scoring this year. With KD/Kyrie he is probably a much better fit.

I'm not counting the Toronto series. Should have clarified as pre-playoffs.

How do you know he can't fulfill that role if hes never had the chance to do it? Seems like a lot of assuming on your part.

Hes a far better scorer than Curry. And can play with the 2nd unit if need be. That's more valuable than a player who is just an 8th man shooter type.

Give me something Caris is elite at that doesn’t solely rely on him having the ball in his hands. We’ve all watched him play. He hasn’t shown the skill level to be able to fit next to other high usage players.

And you’re kind of doubling down on something that everyone kind of knows is BS at this point, that Curry is JUST an 8th man shooter type. Like, we watched the playoffs man. If that’s your impression of Curry after what he did consistently throughout that first round series while often times being defended by two elite defensive wings and an elite overall defense, idk what to tell you.

Yea we watched Curry in the the playoffs.

In the last 3 games of the series, he made a total of ONE 3 pointer and shot 16% from 3.

As soon as the Clippers took the series seriously, he was non existent.

Game 5 - Curry 4 points 0 assists 0 free throw attempts

Game 6 - Curry 7 points 1 assist 0 free throw attempts


In four of the six gsmes, he attempted ZERO free throws. How does a guard play that many minutes and have 4 games with zero free attempts?

He averaged ONE assist per game for the entire series. He had the same amount of assists and turnovers.

In the pivotal Game 5, he had zero 3’s, zero free throw attempts, and zero assists. He was also a team worst -27 in that game.

Wow so consistent.

[vincecarter4pres]

Maybe I'm wrong on Otto Porter. Have not watched a lot of Bulls to be honest.

I just don't think he's ever been an elite, or even really good defender. He's been solid. And lately injuries have caught up to him and his lack of athleticism and he's become at best average.

Smart does take bad shots, but hes one of the best defenders in the NBA. He would be huge in a playoff series against one of the Superstar perimeter players.

I like Smart. He's definitely an elite defender. But he really does take a lot of bad shots and miss a lot of good looks. I wouldn't be upset if we dealt for him depending on what we gave up though. You can deal with his low field goal percentage as long as he isn't taking a lot of shots.

I just don't see how Allen can help that much if Jordan is plugged in as the starter. He's overqualified for a bench role. And 6th men roles are best for scoring guards, not big men.

This is a main point of contention for me. Even if Jordan starts, he's not playing more than 25mpg on average. And there's no way he's playing 82, even if he just misses 10 for rest. Then there's overtime games. Bottom line is, averages never add up to 48 minutes collectively. There's no reason why you couldn't do something like Jordan starting, averaging like 22mpg and Allen off the bench for about 30mpg.

I'm not saying it's ideal, or even what will happen, but trading Allen for the sake of starting Jordan and then acting as though Jordan can stay healthy and remain effective for 82 games and play big minutes seems like very poor logic to me.

And lastly, how long does Jordan stay effective, period?

Do we just throw away a legit possible decade of top 10 modern center for a 30 year old role player? I get you feel that way about Caris, but Caris is 5 years older and again, his deficiencies and ill fit have been on full display for all to see for 4 years. Add to that Jrue is wildly better than Smart or Covington, let alone Otto Porter.

But more importantly, Covington is a wing defender that we don't have on the roster. That's one of my main concerns. Defense.

Covington to me is another guy I view like Smart. I like him a lot and would welcome him if we traded for him. I just feel like people have almost gone over the moon for the guy out of nowhere the last couple years though, especially because he was the centerpiece of a weird Jimmy Butler trade and garnered multiple 1st round picks in the follow up trade.

Like yeah people talked him up a little say 3 or 4 seasons ago once we was established, but then out of nowhere he's talked up like the second coming of Pippen, or Klay Thompson v2.0 once he was dealt for Butler.

He's a really good defender, he's a good shooter from deep, he's athletic with size, he's just a solid, low usage, starting level NBA player. I get why he's desirable, I just don't know if I share the wild fawning of him that goes around league-wide by media, fans and even actual NBA execs.