Nets Going Forward: Planning for Next Season

[DarkXaero]

I'm not trying "way too hard" to sound smart. This is the way I always write. I'm not going to dumb myself down because its makes you feel insecure.

If Kevin Love was a wasted empty stats player on the Wolves then what was Beal? Beal has been on the playoffs because of John Wall and because he played in the East. If you put Love w/ Wall in the East of course hes making the playoffs too.

22 pts is nout "roughly" averaging 25 ppg. Sorry thats not the same thing. Thats basically what Dinwddie averaged last year

Beal is not a good defender, no matter how hard you try to pretend he was. He is not anything like Klay, and thus your comparison is dubious. Sorry. Try better next time.

Okay guy, I believe you, you totally don't drop random vocabulary words when trying to be condescending to me

What kind of stupid ass damage control is that about Beal? Beal has played in 40 playoffs games in his career, averaging 23 PPG. His numbers actually went up in the playoffs compared to his regular season averages, that's the opposite of Kevin Love who actually shrunk on the big stage.

"22 pts is nout "roughly" averaging 25 ppg."-I'm not getting into another dumb semantics argument with you. Your lack of reading comprehension isn't my problem.

"Beal is not a good defender, no matter how hard you try to pretend he was. He is not anything like Klay, and thus your comparison is dubious."-I think I've been pretty factual and honest about Beal's defense in his NBA career so far. Not my problem that you can't do your research, and then come at me with your stupid opinions instead of well researched arguments.

"Sorry. Try better next time."- Something a troll would write.

You're honestly an idiot for accusing me of "dropping random vocabulary words" because you're too stupid to understand basic English.

I'm in law school right now and am constantly writing. The idea that I need to "look up words" is such a nonsensical insinuation, that it's not even worth responding to.

And I'm not going to engage with a moron like you any further if you're gonna say dumb **** like that rather than focus on my argument.

Never said anything about looking up words, thanks for letting that slip

You've been hostile from the start, and you're constantly trying to belittle my intelligence by throwing in condescending statements, and insults. But you get annoyed real quick when it's thrown back at you

The reasonable posters here know who the real "moron" is here.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Allen is 22 years old. Big men almost always take longer to develop and he's already turned the corner to an undeniably good defender, with switching, recovery and some perimeter ability, at least on other bigs. He has great timing on blocks, active hands, has started to get lower when face guarding and more often then not, knows where to be. He's becoming more vocal on quarterbacking the D too. His rebounding is elite on both ends.

All this leads to believe, it's not, "ridiculous lol", that he can become an elite defender, and become that soon.

Getting bodied by Embiid isn't really some damning evidence, he bodies a majority of the league, including other elite big men, top defensive big men and top defensive teams. He just averaged 30/12 a game with 15 FTA's a game against an elite defense.

I agree big men take a while to develop.

Allen needs to add a lot more strength and size to be considered an elite defender.

I didn't say hes not a good defender. Or that he can't become elite. But hes certainly not elite right now.

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

I don't know man, I just find this incredibly disingenuous, or that you're inclined to heavily put the blinders on when you say this stuff about Caris as if it hasn't been his entire career he's been inefficient and most of it where his D has been pretty bad, but then you say stuff like this about Allen...

I
I
I
v

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

And I know neither of us is saying Allen is elite, and both of us are saying he's good, but you'll base a guy's entire worth and defensive skill level off one player he has a lot of trouble with(not that Embiid is literally the only one), yet you'll move bridges, backflip through venomous snakes and land planes blindfolded to challenge the ideas that Caris is inefficient, a below average defender, literally visibly through effort and body language gave up on defending anyone at all in 3 straight playoff games and is primarily an on ball, high usage player.

I'm fine if he's our Ginobili or Lou Williams, but also you have to admit, those 2 guys specifically were and are, worlds better and more efficient then current LeVert. Like you're talking about a lock HOFer, who if had the physical durability to have started and played big minutes his whole career, would have been a year in/year out 20/5/5 guy on great efficiency, who also made all the hustle plays and played above average D and a guy whose been one of the best, most efficient 6xth men in the league for 5 to 7 years.

I get games aren't played on a stat sheet, but unless Caris can all of a sudden stay healthy, all of a sudden become a great shooter, especially off-ball; all of a sudden become an above average defender and actually recommit to giving effort 100% of the time on that side and all of a sudden gain even more weight and strength without losing speed; and all these things at the same time, he's going to be good, but there will be a very limited cap on his upside, even in that role.

You talk about trading Allen while his value is at a high, well that's exactly what I think Marks should do with Caris if the right deal presents itself.

It seems like you're intentionally creating strawmans to dismiss my entire point.

When did I say my entire assessment of Allen's defense was based on his series against Embiid? That was just one example.

Overall, I don't think Allen has proven he is an elite defender. Not just on the Sixers series. I don't think he has the impact of a Rudy Gobert or a Joel Embiid. Guys who I think are truly "elite" rim defenders.

You're comparing me saying Levert can be efficient to Allen being elite? Have I ever said Levert was elite at anything? All I said was that he's a borderline all star when hes at this best.

You're acting like I'm trashing Allen when all I'm saying is I don't consider him being elite

Yes Lou Will and Ginobli were more efficient than Levert. But I think he can play at an efficient level if hes healthy as he has shown previously.

Also I think its funny how you're telling me I'm comparing Levert to a HOFer when I never even brought up Ginobli. YOU DID lol. I said Lou Will. Whos certainly not a HOF level player.

I agree that Caris has to stay healthy, but I'm willing to make that bet. He was already good shooter this year and I think he can keep improving. I think its much easier for him to play defense if hes not carrying the load offensively.

I see your point, I just think Allen adds little value to this team with Jordan. I think we still need a third scorer like Levert.

[vincecarter4pres]

I agree big men take a while to develop.

Allen needs to add a lot more strength and size to be considered an elite defender.

I didn't say hes not a good defender. Or that he can't become elite. But hes certainly not elite right now.

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

I don't know man, I just find this incredibly disingenuous, or that you're inclined to heavily put the blinders on when you say this stuff about Caris as if it hasn't been his entire career he's been inefficient and most of it where his D has been pretty bad, but then you say stuff like this about Allen...

I
I
I
v

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

And I know neither of us is saying Allen is elite, and both of us are saying he's good, but you'll base a guy's entire worth and defensive skill level off one player he has a lot of trouble with(not that Embiid is literally the only one), yet you'll move bridges, backflip through venomous snakes and land planes blindfolded to challenge the ideas that Caris is inefficient, a below average defender, literally visibly through effort and body language gave up on defending anyone at all in 3 straight playoff games and is primarily an on ball, high usage player.

I'm fine if he's our Ginobili or Lou Williams, but also you have to admit, those 2 guys specifically were and are, worlds better and more efficient then current LeVert. Like you're talking about a lock HOFer, who if had the physical durability to have started and played big minutes his whole career, would have been a year in/year out 20/5/5 guy on great efficiency, who also made all the hustle plays and played above average D and a guy whose been one of the best, most efficient 6xth men in the league for 5 to 7 years.

I get games aren't played on a stat sheet, but unless Caris can all of a sudden stay healthy, all of a sudden become a great shooter, especially off-ball; all of a sudden become an above average defender and actually recommit to giving effort 100% of the time on that side and all of a sudden gain even more weight and strength without losing speed; and all these things at the same time, he's going to be good, but there will be a very limited cap on his upside, even in that role.

You talk about trading Allen while his value is at a high, well that's exactly what I think Marks should do with Caris if the right deal presents itself.

It seems like you're intentionally creating strawmans to dismiss my entire point.

When did I say my entire assessment of Allen's defense was based on his series against Embiid? That was just one example.

Overall, I don't think Allen has proven he is an elite defender. Not just on the Sixers series. I don't think he has the impact of a Rudy Gobert or a Joel Embiid. Guys who I think are truly "elite" rim defenders.

You're comparing me saying Levert can be efficient to Allen being elite? Have I ever said Levert was elite at anything? All I said was that he's a borderline all star when hes at this best.

You're acting like I'm trashing Allen when all I'm saying is I don't consider him being elite

Yes Lou Will and Ginobli were more efficient than Levert. But I think he can play at an efficient level if hes healthy as he has shown previously.

Also I think its funny how you're telling me I'm comparing Levert to a HOFer when I never even brought up Ginobli. YOU DID lol. I said Lou Will. Whos certainly not a HOF level player.

I agree that Caris has to stay healthy, but I'm willing to make that bet. He was already good shooter this year and I think he can keep improving. I think its much easier for him to play defense if hes not carrying the load offensively.

I see your point, I just think Allen adds little value to this team with Jordan. I think we still need a third scorer like Levert.

I quoted the wrong post second. Let me repost it below the way I intended.

I agree big men take a while to develop.

Allen needs to add a lot more strength and size to be considered an elite defender.

I didn't say hes not a good defender. Or that he can't become elite. But hes certainly not elite right now.

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

I don't know man, I just find this incredibly disingenuous, or that you're inclined to heavily put the blinders on when you say this stuff about Caris as if it hasn't been his entire career he's been inefficient and most of it where his D has been pretty bad, but then you say stuff like this about Allen...

I
I
I
v

And I think Levert can be better than him defensively if hes locked in and not having to do everything defensively. He has the size to do it.

And I know neither of us is saying Allen is elite, and both of us are saying he's good, but you'll base a guy's entire worth and defensive skill level off one player he has a lot of trouble with(not that Embiid is literally the only one), yet you'll move bridges, backflip through venomous snakes and land planes blindfolded to challenge the ideas that Caris is inefficient, a below average defender, literally visibly through effort and body language gave up on defending anyone at all in 3 straight playoff games and is primarily an on ball, high usage player.

I'm fine if he's our Ginobili or Lou Williams, but also you have to admit, those 2 guys specifically were and are, worlds better and more efficient then current LeVert. Like you're talking about a lock HOFer, who if had the physical durability to have started and played big minutes his whole career, would have been a year in/year out 20/5/5 guy on great efficiency, who also made all the hustle plays and played above average D and a guy whose been one of the best, most efficient 6xth men in the league for 5 to 7 years.

I get games aren't played on a stat sheet, but unless Caris can all of a sudden stay healthy, all of a sudden become a great shooter, especially off-ball; all of a sudden become an above average defender and actually recommit to giving effort 100% of the time on that side and all of a sudden gain even more weight and strength without losing speed; and all these things at the same time, he's going to be good, but there will be a very limited cap on his upside, even in that role.

You talk about trading Allen while his value is at a high, well that's exactly what I think Marks should do with Caris if the right deal presents itself.

So my point of the post was everything I said and that once again, you're making every possible excuse for LeVert, giving him every 4 seasons benefit of doubt and assuming again he'll change his entire game, but the sticking point for you on Allen, is a beast of a big man, Embiid, ate his lunch.

That's fine, you can believe in LeVert, obviously that's our rights as a fan and as armchair scouts/GM's, but I find it kind of baffling to think LeVert is going to go from who he is to what you think he can, but you write off the immense production Allen has given since a 19 year old rookie and the tremendous growth he's had since then, to the player he's becoming now.

[MrDollarBills]

I agree big men take a while to develop.

Allen needs to add a lot more strength and size to be considered an elite defender.

I didn't say hes not a good defender. Or that he can't become elite. But hes certainly not elite right now.

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

I don't know man, I just find this incredibly disingenuous, or that you're inclined to heavily put the blinders on when you say this stuff about Caris as if it hasn't been his entire career he's been inefficient and most of it where his D has been pretty bad, but then you say stuff like this about Allen...

I
I
I
v

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

And I know neither of us is saying Allen is elite, and both of us are saying he's good, but you'll base a guy's entire worth and defensive skill level off one player he has a lot of trouble with(not that Embiid is literally the only one), yet you'll move bridges, backflip through venomous snakes and land planes blindfolded to challenge the ideas that Caris is inefficient, a below average defender, literally visibly through effort and body language gave up on defending anyone at all in 3 straight playoff games and is primarily an on ball, high usage player.

I'm fine if he's our Ginobili or Lou Williams, but also you have to admit, those 2 guys specifically were and are, worlds better and more efficient then current LeVert. Like you're talking about a lock HOFer, who if had the physical durability to have started and played big minutes his whole career, would have been a year in/year out 20/5/5 guy on great efficiency, who also made all the hustle plays and played above average D and a guy whose been one of the best, most efficient 6xth men in the league for 5 to 7 years.

I get games aren't played on a stat sheet, but unless Caris can all of a sudden stay healthy, all of a sudden become a great shooter, especially off-ball; all of a sudden become an above average defender and actually recommit to giving effort 100% of the time on that side and all of a sudden gain even more weight and strength without losing speed; and all these things at the same time, he's going to be good, but there will be a very limited cap on his upside, even in that role.

You talk about trading Allen while his value is at a high, well that's exactly what I think Marks should do with Caris if the right deal presents itself.

It seems like you're intentionally creating strawmans to dismiss my entire point.

When did I say my entire assessment of Allen's defense was based on his series against Embiid? That was just one example.

Overall, I don't think Allen has proven he is an elite defender. Not just on the Sixers series. I don't think he has the impact of a Rudy Gobert or a Joel Embiid. Guys who I think are truly "elite" rim defenders.

You're comparing me saying Levert can be efficient to Allen being elite? Have I ever said Levert was elite at anything? All I said was that he's a borderline all star when hes at this best.

You're acting like I'm trashing Allen when all I'm saying is I don't consider him being elite

Yes Lou Will and Ginobli were more efficient than Levert. But I think he can play at an efficient level if hes healthy as he has shown previously.

Also I think its funny how you're telling me I'm comparing Levert to a HOFer when I never even brought up Ginobli. YOU DID lol. I said Lou Will. Whos certainly not a HOF level player.

I agree that Caris has to stay healthy, but I'm willing to make that bet. He was already good shooter this year and I think he can keep improving. I think its much easier for him to play defense if hes not carrying the load offensively.

I see your point, I just think Allen adds little value to this team with Jordan. I think we still need a third scorer like Levert.

Having a solid roll big like Allen in a line up that features KD, Kyrie, and Joe Harris will add a ton of value, I disagree. Allen will be feasting off of dunks and put backs next season. Meanwhile, DeAndre Jordan will be 33 years old next year, he is in the danger zone as far as player declines are concerned. If we choose Jordan over Allen, it will be a serious mistake.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I'm not counting the Toronto series. Should have clarified as pre-playoffs.

How do you know he can't fulfill that role if hes never had the chance to do it? Seems like a lot of assuming on your part.

Hes a far better scorer than Curry. And can play with the 2nd unit if need be. That's more valuable than a player who is just an 8th man shooter type.

Give me something Caris is elite at that doesn’t solely rely on him having the ball in his hands. We’ve all watched him play. He hasn’t shown the skill level to be able to fit next to other high usage players.

And you’re kind of doubling down on something that everyone kind of knows is BS at this point, that Curry is JUST an 8th man shooter type. Like, we watched the playoffs man. If that’s your impression of Curry after what he did consistently throughout that first round series while often times being defended by two elite defensive wings and an elite overall defense, idk what to tell you.

Yea we watched Curry in the the playoffs.

In the last 3 games of the series, he made a total of ONE 3 pointer and shot 16% from 3.

As soon as the Clippers took the series seriously, he was non existent.

Game 5 - Curry 4 points 0 assists 0 free throw attempts

Game 6 - Curry 7 points 1 assist 0 free throw attempts


In four of the six gsmes, he attempted ZERO free throws. How does a guard play that many minutes and have 4 games with zero free attempts?

He averaged ONE assist per game for the entire series. He had the same amount of assists and turnovers.

In the pivotal Game 5, he had zero 3’s, zero free throw attempts, and zero assists. He was also a team worst -27 in that game.

Wow so consistent.

exactly

Somehow hes supposed to be our third option with KD/Kyrie

[Hello Brooklyn]

Maybe I'm wrong on Otto Porter. Have not watched a lot of Bulls to be honest.

I just don't think he's ever been an elite, or even really good defender. He's been solid. And lately injuries have caught up to him and his lack of athleticism and he's become at best average.

Smart does take bad shots, but hes one of the best defenders in the NBA. He would be huge in a playoff series against one of the Superstar perimeter players.

I like Smart. He's definitely an elite defender. But he really does take a lot of bad shots and miss a lot of good looks. I wouldn't be upset if we dealt for him depending on what we gave up though. You can deal with his low field goal percentage as long as he isn't taking a lot of shots.

I just don't see how Allen can help that much if Jordan is plugged in as the starter. He's overqualified for a bench role. And 6th men roles are best for scoring guards, not big men.

This is a main point of contention for me. Even if Jordan starts, he's not playing more than 25mpg on average. And there's no way he's playing 82, even if he just misses 10 for rest. Then there's overtime games. Bottom line is, averages never add up to 48 minutes collectively. There's no reason why you couldn't do something like Jordan starting, averaging like 22mpg and Allen off the bench for about 30mpg.

I'm not saying it's ideal, or even what will happen, but trading Allen for the sake of starting Jordan and then acting as though Jordan can stay healthy and remain effective for 82 games and play big minutes seems like very poor logic to me.

And lastly, how long does Jordan stay effective, period?

Do we just throw away a legit possible decade of top 10 modern center for a 30 year old role player? I get you feel that way about Caris, but Caris is 5 years older and again, his deficiencies and ill fit have been on full display for all to see for 4 years. Add to that Jrue is wildly better than Smart or Covington, let alone Otto Porter.

But more importantly, Covington is a wing defender that we don't have on the roster. That's one of my main concerns. Defense.

Covington to me is another guy I view like Smart. I like him a lot and would welcome him if we traded for him. I just feel like people have almost gone over the moon for the guy out of nowhere the last couple years though, especially because he was the centerpiece of a weird Jimmy Butler trade and garnered multiple 1st round picks in the follow up trade.

Like yeah people talked him up a little say 3 or 4 seasons ago once we was established, but then out of nowhere he's talked up like the second coming of Pippen, or Klay Thompson v2.0 once he was dealt for Butler.

He's a really good defender, he's a good shooter from deep, he's athletic with size, he's just a solid, low usage, starting level NBA player. I get why he's desirable, I just don't know if I share the wild fawning of him that goes around league-wide by media, fans and even actual NBA execs.

I think Jordan is capable of playing more than 25 mpg. I think he can handle a full starter's load. And I think he will be better once hes playing more consistent minutes rather than having to come in and out for Allen.

I think its easier to put in Claxton or draft someone for a backup role than forcing Allen to do it whos overqualified.

But more importantly, its unlikely that we keep Allen after this season. Do you really see us resining Allen for a big contract long term with Jordan on the books? I think hes gone next off season anyway. Thats why I say trade him now.

To get Jrue we probably have to give up Allen + Caris + picks. I don't see Jrue going for just Caris anytime soon.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I don't know man, I just find this incredibly disingenuous, or that you're inclined to heavily put the blinders on when you say this stuff about Caris as if it hasn't been his entire career he's been inefficient and most of it where his D has been pretty bad, but then you say stuff like this about Allen...

I
I
I
v


And I know neither of us is saying Allen is elite, and both of us are saying he's good, but you'll base a guy's entire worth and defensive skill level off one player he has a lot of trouble with(not that Embiid is literally the only one), yet you'll move bridges, backflip through venomous snakes and land planes blindfolded to challenge the ideas that Caris is inefficient, a below average defender, literally visibly through effort and body language gave up on defending anyone at all in 3 straight playoff games and is primarily an on ball, high usage player.

I'm fine if he's our Ginobili or Lou Williams, but also you have to admit, those 2 guys specifically were and are, worlds better and more efficient then current LeVert. Like you're talking about a lock HOFer, who if had the physical durability to have started and played big minutes his whole career, would have been a year in/year out 20/5/5 guy on great efficiency, who also made all the hustle plays and played above average D and a guy whose been one of the best, most efficient 6xth men in the league for 5 to 7 years.

I get games aren't played on a stat sheet, but unless Caris can all of a sudden stay healthy, all of a sudden become a great shooter, especially off-ball; all of a sudden become an above average defender and actually recommit to giving effort 100% of the time on that side and all of a sudden gain even more weight and strength without losing speed; and all these things at the same time, he's going to be good, but there will be a very limited cap on his upside, even in that role.

You talk about trading Allen while his value is at a high, well that's exactly what I think Marks should do with Caris if the right deal presents itself.

It seems like you're intentionally creating strawmans to dismiss my entire point.

When did I say my entire assessment of Allen's defense was based on his series against Embiid? That was just one example.

Overall, I don't think Allen has proven he is an elite defender. Not just on the Sixers series. I don't think he has the impact of a Rudy Gobert or a Joel Embiid. Guys who I think are truly "elite" rim defenders.

You're comparing me saying Levert can be efficient to Allen being elite? Have I ever said Levert was elite at anything? All I said was that he's a borderline all star when hes at this best.

You're acting like I'm trashing Allen when all I'm saying is I don't consider him being elite

Yes Lou Will and Ginobli were more efficient than Levert. But I think he can play at an efficient level if hes healthy as he has shown previously.

Also I think its funny how you're telling me I'm comparing Levert to a HOFer when I never even brought up Ginobli. YOU DID lol. I said Lou Will. Whos certainly not a HOF level player.

I agree that Caris has to stay healthy, but I'm willing to make that bet. He was already good shooter this year and I think he can keep improving. I think its much easier for him to play defense if hes not carrying the load offensively.

I see your point, I just think Allen adds little value to this team with Jordan. I think we still need a third scorer like Levert.

I quoted the wrong post second. Let me repost it below the way I intended.

I agree big men take a while to develop.

Allen needs to add a lot more strength and size to be considered an elite defender.

I didn't say hes not a good defender. Or that he can't become elite. But hes certainly not elite right now.

Its not even that he got bodied by Embiid. He literally could not guard him. He provided no resistance. I know hes improved since then but he needs time to get to the type of level where he can be considered elite.

I don't know man, I just find this incredibly disingenuous, or that you're inclined to heavily put the blinders on when you say this stuff about Caris as if it hasn't been his entire career he's been inefficient and most of it where his D has been pretty bad, but then you say stuff like this about Allen...

I
I
I
v

And I think Levert can be better than him defensively if hes locked in and not having to do everything defensively. He has the size to do it.

And I know neither of us is saying Allen is elite, and both of us are saying he's good, but you'll base a guy's entire worth and defensive skill level off one player he has a lot of trouble with(not that Embiid is literally the only one), yet you'll move bridges, backflip through venomous snakes and land planes blindfolded to challenge the ideas that Caris is inefficient, a below average defender, literally visibly through effort and body language gave up on defending anyone at all in 3 straight playoff games and is primarily an on ball, high usage player.

I'm fine if he's our Ginobili or Lou Williams, but also you have to admit, those 2 guys specifically were and are, worlds better and more efficient then current LeVert. Like you're talking about a lock HOFer, who if had the physical durability to have started and played big minutes his whole career, would have been a year in/year out 20/5/5 guy on great efficiency, who also made all the hustle plays and played above average D and a guy whose been one of the best, most efficient 6xth men in the league for 5 to 7 years.

I get games aren't played on a stat sheet, but unless Caris can all of a sudden stay healthy, all of a sudden become a great shooter, especially off-ball; all of a sudden become an above average defender and actually recommit to giving effort 100% of the time on that side and all of a sudden gain even more weight and strength without losing speed; and all these things at the same time, he's going to be good, but there will be a very limited cap on his upside, even in that role.

You talk about trading Allen while his value is at a high, well that's exactly what I think Marks should do with Caris if the right deal presents itself.

So my point of the post was everything I said and that once again, you're making every possible excuse for LeVert, giving him every 4 seasons benefit of doubt and assuming again he'll change his entire game, but the sticking point for you on Allen, is a beast of a big man, Embiid, ate his lunch.

That's fine, you can believe in LeVert, obviously that's our rights as a fan and as armchair scouts/GM's, but I find it kind of baffling to think LeVert is going to go from who he is to what you think he can, but you write off the immense production Allen has given since a 19 year old rookie and the tremendous growth he's had since then, to the player he's becoming now.

Levert has had to deal with many injuries which have ruined his numbers. That's the only reason I make "excuses" for him.

Again the Embiid series was not the "sticking point" for me. It was an example I brought up. But you seem to keep pretending its my whole argument and I don't get why lol. Especially after I clarified for you in my last post.

I'm not trying to diminish Allen in any way. I never said he can't become elite in the future. just don't think hes "elite" which is apparently a big deal to you since you keep harping on it.

Yet you're intentionally lying about my argument and saying I'm "writing off Allen." I've never wrote him off. I think hes a very good player and I love having him on this team.

I honestly wish we hadn't signed Jordan and that Allen was our long term starting Center.

Why do you act like me saying hes not an elite defender means I think he hasn't had immense production or thats hes not a very good player?

[Hello Brooklyn]

I don't know man, I just find this incredibly disingenuous, or that you're inclined to heavily put the blinders on when you say this stuff about Caris as if it hasn't been his entire career he's been inefficient and most of it where his D has been pretty bad, but then you say stuff like this about Allen...

I
I
I
v


And I know neither of us is saying Allen is elite, and both of us are saying he's good, but you'll base a guy's entire worth and defensive skill level off one player he has a lot of trouble with(not that Embiid is literally the only one), yet you'll move bridges, backflip through venomous snakes and land planes blindfolded to challenge the ideas that Caris is inefficient, a below average defender, literally visibly through effort and body language gave up on defending anyone at all in 3 straight playoff games and is primarily an on ball, high usage player.

I'm fine if he's our Ginobili or Lou Williams, but also you have to admit, those 2 guys specifically were and are, worlds better and more efficient then current LeVert. Like you're talking about a lock HOFer, who if had the physical durability to have started and played big minutes his whole career, would have been a year in/year out 20/5/5 guy on great efficiency, who also made all the hustle plays and played above average D and a guy whose been one of the best, most efficient 6xth men in the league for 5 to 7 years.

I get games aren't played on a stat sheet, but unless Caris can all of a sudden stay healthy, all of a sudden become a great shooter, especially off-ball; all of a sudden become an above average defender and actually recommit to giving effort 100% of the time on that side and all of a sudden gain even more weight and strength without losing speed; and all these things at the same time, he's going to be good, but there will be a very limited cap on his upside, even in that role.

You talk about trading Allen while his value is at a high, well that's exactly what I think Marks should do with Caris if the right deal presents itself.

It seems like you're intentionally creating strawmans to dismiss my entire point.

When did I say my entire assessment of Allen's defense was based on his series against Embiid? That was just one example.

Overall, I don't think Allen has proven he is an elite defender. Not just on the Sixers series. I don't think he has the impact of a Rudy Gobert or a Joel Embiid. Guys who I think are truly "elite" rim defenders.

You're comparing me saying Levert can be efficient to Allen being elite? Have I ever said Levert was elite at anything? All I said was that he's a borderline all star when hes at this best.

You're acting like I'm trashing Allen when all I'm saying is I don't consider him being elite

Yes Lou Will and Ginobli were more efficient than Levert. But I think he can play at an efficient level if hes healthy as he has shown previously.

Also I think its funny how you're telling me I'm comparing Levert to a HOFer when I never even brought up Ginobli. YOU DID lol. I said Lou Will. Whos certainly not a HOF level player.

I agree that Caris has to stay healthy, but I'm willing to make that bet. He was already good shooter this year and I think he can keep improving. I think its much easier for him to play defense if hes not carrying the load offensively.

I see your point, I just think Allen adds little value to this team with Jordan. I think we still need a third scorer like Levert.

Having a solid roll big like Allen in a line up that features KD, Kyrie, and Joe Harris will add a ton of value, I disagree. Allen will be feasting off of dunks and put backs next season. Meanwhile, DeAndre Jordan will be 33 years old next year, he is in the danger zone as far as player declines are concerned. If we choose Jordan over Allen, it will be a serious mistake.

The central question remains:

Do we plan on resigning Allen for a bigger contract next off season?

If not then why not trade him we can get value back? And get a player who fills a need rather than give us a luxury.

[vincecarter4pres]

Maybe I'm wrong on Otto Porter. Have not watched a lot of Bulls to be honest.

I just don't think he's ever been an elite, or even really good defender. He's been solid. And lately injuries have caught up to him and his lack of athleticism and he's become at best average.

Smart does take bad shots, but hes one of the best defenders in the NBA. He would be huge in a playoff series against one of the Superstar perimeter players.

I like Smart. He's definitely an elite defender. But he really does take a lot of bad shots and miss a lot of good looks. I wouldn't be upset if we dealt for him depending on what we gave up though. You can deal with his low field goal percentage as long as he isn't taking a lot of shots.

I just don't see how Allen can help that much if Jordan is plugged in as the starter. He's overqualified for a bench role. And 6th men roles are best for scoring guards, not big men.

This is a main point of contention for me. Even if Jordan starts, he's not playing more than 25mpg on average. And there's no way he's playing 82, even if he just misses 10 for rest. Then there's overtime games. Bottom line is, averages never add up to 48 minutes collectively. There's no reason why you couldn't do something like Jordan starting, averaging like 22mpg and Allen off the bench for about 30mpg.

I'm not saying it's ideal, or even what will happen, but trading Allen for the sake of starting Jordan and then acting as though Jordan can stay healthy and remain effective for 82 games and play big minutes seems like very poor logic to me.

And lastly, how long does Jordan stay effective, period?

Do we just throw away a legit possible decade of top 10 modern center for a 30 year old role player? I get you feel that way about Caris, but Caris is 5 years older and again, his deficiencies and ill fit have been on full display for all to see for 4 years. Add to that Jrue is wildly better than Smart or Covington, let alone Otto Porter.

But more importantly, Covington is a wing defender that we don't have on the roster. That's one of my main concerns. Defense.

Covington to me is another guy I view like Smart. I like him a lot and would welcome him if we traded for him. I just feel like people have almost gone over the moon for the guy out of nowhere the last couple years though, especially because he was the centerpiece of a weird Jimmy Butler trade and garnered multiple 1st round picks in the follow up trade.

Like yeah people talked him up a little say 3 or 4 seasons ago once we was established, but then out of nowhere he's talked up like the second coming of Pippen, or Klay Thompson v2.0 once he was dealt for Butler.

He's a really good defender, he's a good shooter from deep, he's athletic with size, he's just a solid, low usage, starting level NBA player. I get why he's desirable, I just don't know if I share the wild fawning of him that goes around league-wide by media, fans and even actual NBA execs.

I think Jordan is capable of playing more than 25 mpg. I think he can handle a full starter's load. And I think he will be better once hes playing more consistent minutes rather than having to come in and out for Allen.

I think its easier to put in Claxton or draft someone for a backup role than forcing Allen to do it whos overqualified.

But more importantly, its unlikely that we keep Allen after this season. Do you really see us resining Allen for a big contract long term with Jordan on the books? I think hes gone next off season anyway. Thats why I say trade him now.

To get Jrue we probably have to give up Allen + Caris + picks. I don't see Jrue going for just Caris anytime soon.

I absolutely see no way Jordan plays big minutes, even for a season and then, is fresh for the playoffs if he limped his way into them with the rest of the team, if he's played more then 60 games. Even if he's healthy enough to play in the playoffs, he'll be gassed and ineffective a lot of those postseason minutes.

And I don't think you can get away with 20mpg of Claxton, or any fill in, plus all the rest games for DeAndre where you need to fill 48 minutes. Claxton is a day dream right now, he'll be lucky if he's in the league in 7 years.

I do see us re-signing Allen if he isn't dealt. After this season, Jordan is on the books for 2 years at less than $10 mill a year. You dump a late first with him attached next summer if necessary to be able to re-sign a young stud like Allen.

I do not think Jrue cost both Caris and Allen. I think you're looking at Caris or Dinwiddie, picks and a guy like Claxton. Done. Deal. Where do I sign?

[ProspectPark]

Give me something Caris is elite at that doesn’t solely rely on him having the ball in his hands. We’ve all watched him play. He hasn’t shown the skill level to be able to fit next to other high usage players.

And you’re kind of doubling down on something that everyone kind of knows is BS at this point, that Curry is JUST an 8th man shooter type. Like, we watched the playoffs man. If that’s your impression of Curry after what he did consistently throughout that first round series while often times being defended by two elite defensive wings and an elite overall defense, idk what to tell you.

Yea we watched Curry in the the playoffs.

In the last 3 games of the series, he made a total of ONE 3 pointer and shot 16% from 3.

As soon as the Clippers took the series seriously, he was non existent.

Game 5 - Curry 4 points 0 assists 0 free throw attempts

Game 6 - Curry 7 points 1 assist 0 free throw attempts


In four of the six gsmes, he attempted ZERO free throws. How does a guard play that many minutes and have 4 games with zero free attempts?

He averaged ONE assist per game for the entire series. He had the same amount of assists and turnovers.

In the pivotal Game 5, he had zero 3’s, zero free throw attempts, and zero assists. He was also a team worst -27 in that game.

Wow so consistent.

exactly

Somehow hes supposed to be our third option with KD/Kyrie

Imagine thinking Seth Curry is a 3nD guard that can guard Kawhi?

[Hello Brooklyn]

I just don't think he's ever been an elite, or even really good defender. He's been solid. And lately injuries have caught up to him and his lack of athleticism and he's become at best average.


I like Smart. He's definitely an elite defender. But he really does take a lot of bad shots and miss a lot of good looks. I wouldn't be upset if we dealt for him depending on what we gave up though. You can deal with his low field goal percentage as long as he isn't taking a lot of shots.


This is a main point of contention for me. Even if Jordan starts, he's not playing more than 25mpg on average. And there's no way he's playing 82, even if he just misses 10 for rest. Then there's overtime games. Bottom line is, averages never add up to 48 minutes collectively. There's no reason why you couldn't do something like Jordan starting, averaging like 22mpg and Allen off the bench for about 30mpg.

I'm not saying it's ideal, or even what will happen, but trading Allen for the sake of starting Jordan and then acting as though Jordan can stay healthy and remain effective for 82 games and play big minutes seems like very poor logic to me.

And lastly, how long does Jordan stay effective, period?

Do we just throw away a legit possible decade of top 10 modern center for a 30 year old role player? I get you feel that way about Caris, but Caris is 5 years older and again, his deficiencies and ill fit have been on full display for all to see for 4 years. Add to that Jrue is wildly better than Smart or Covington, let alone Otto Porter.


Covington to me is another guy I view like Smart. I like him a lot and would welcome him if we traded for him. I just feel like people have almost gone over the moon for the guy out of nowhere the last couple years though, especially because he was the centerpiece of a weird Jimmy Butler trade and garnered multiple 1st round picks in the follow up trade.

Like yeah people talked him up a little say 3 or 4 seasons ago once we was established, but then out of nowhere he's talked up like the second coming of Pippen, or Klay Thompson v2.0 once he was dealt for Butler.

He's a really good defender, he's a good shooter from deep, he's athletic with size, he's just a solid, low usage, starting level NBA player. I get why he's desirable, I just don't know if I share the wild fawning of him that goes around league-wide by media, fans and even actual NBA execs.

I think Jordan is capable of playing more than 25 mpg. I think he can handle a full starter's load. And I think he will be better once hes playing more consistent minutes rather than having to come in and out for Allen.

I think its easier to put in Claxton or draft someone for a backup role than forcing Allen to do it whos overqualified.

But more importantly, its unlikely that we keep Allen after this season. Do you really see us resining Allen for a big contract long term with Jordan on the books? I think hes gone next off season anyway. Thats why I say trade him now.

To get Jrue we probably have to give up Allen + Caris + picks. I don't see Jrue going for just Caris anytime soon.

I absolutely see no way Jordan plays big minutes, even for a season and then, is fresh for the playoffs if he limped his way into them with the rest of the team, if he's played more then 60 games. Even if he's healthy enough to play in the playoffs, he'll be gassed and ineffective a lot of those postseason minutes.

And I don't think you can get away with 20mpg of Claxton, or any fill in, plus all the rest games for DeAndre where you need to fill 48 minutes. Claxton is a day dream right now, he'll be lucky if he's in the league in 7 years.

I do see us re-signing Allen if he isn't dealt. After this season, Jordan is on the books for 2 years at less than $10 mill a year. You dump a late first with him attached next summer if necessary to be able to re-sign a young stud like Allen.

I do not think Jrue cost both Caris and Allen. I think you're looking at Caris or Dinwiddie, picks and a guy like Claxton. Done. Deal. Where do I sign.

IF you're right about Jordan and if Allen is resigned then I agree with you. However, I think I'm right on both of those points.

We will have to wait and see.

I don't think we get Holiday for that either. But if we get him for Dinwiddie/picks/Claxton I would do it today.

[therealbig3]

Yea we watched Curry in the the playoffs.

In the last 3 games of the series, he made a total of ONE 3 pointer and shot 16% from 3.

As soon as the Clippers took the series seriously, he was non existent.

Game 5 - Curry 4 points 0 assists 0 free throw attempts

Game 6 - Curry 7 points 1 assist 0 free throw attempts


In four of the six gsmes, he attempted ZERO free throws. How does a guard play that many minutes and have 4 games with zero free attempts?

He averaged ONE assist per game for the entire series. He had the same amount of assists and turnovers.

In the pivotal Game 5, he had zero 3’s, zero free throw attempts, and zero assists. He was also a team worst -27 in that game.

Wow so consistent.

exactly

Somehow hes supposed to be our third option with KD/Kyrie

Imagine thinking Seth Curry is a 3nD guard that can guard Kawhi?

Yeah he’s just another 5’11” guard

[Prokorov]

You are not getting Jrue without giving up at LEAST levert and allen. and thats probably not close to enough. Levert isnt some blue chip assets. many teams may view him as a neutral asset.

What value does he have to a bad team? he is not good enough to lead a team to wins. he is not bad enough that you get a top 5 pick. he is not young enough to invest in some big ceiling.

What value does he have for a good team? he has not shown an ability to be productive when not the 1st option or 1b. he has not shown the ability to play with other #1 options. he has not shown the ability to play off ball. you cant rely on him to stay healthy

His best fit is a a bad team that isnt quite high lotto territory. he gives the fans falso hopes while you reboot and you can blame health and patience while you lose games.

for someone like Beal, Jrue, Lavine, or any big names like that it will take a MINIMUM of Levert/Allen/#19/2022 1st

[Prokorov]

Yes Lou Will and Ginobli were more efficient than Levert. But I think he can play at an efficient level if hes healthy as he has shown previously.

You keep saying this. a few of us have asked several times for you to clarigy what this "healthy period" was when levert showed he was efficient. As ive now shown at least 20 times both pre and post injury all 4 years he has been somewhere between below average and bottom of the league level bad from an efficiency standpoint. including his only healthy-ish season when he played 71 games.

so either "healthy levert" is some super small 8-10 game sample or its just flat out never happened.

I agree that Caris has to stay healthy, but I'm willing to make that bet. He was already good shooter this year and I think he can keep improving. I think its much easier for him to play defense if hes not carrying the load offensively.

I mean, he has been injured every season going back to his sophmore year at michigan.

42% FG, 36% 3PT, 71% FT, 51% TS% is not what id call a "good shooter". all of those are below league average and most are in the bottom 1/4 of the league (especially at that volume)

I see your point, I just think Allen adds little value to this team with Jordan. I think we still need a third scorer like Levert.

What value does levert bring? he is a poor scorer and we have dinwiddie

[MrDollarBills]

It seems like you're intentionally creating strawmans to dismiss my entire point.

When did I say my entire assessment of Allen's defense was based on his series against Embiid? That was just one example.

Overall, I don't think Allen has proven he is an elite defender. Not just on the Sixers series. I don't think he has the impact of a Rudy Gobert or a Joel Embiid. Guys who I think are truly "elite" rim defenders.

You're comparing me saying Levert can be efficient to Allen being elite? Have I ever said Levert was elite at anything? All I said was that he's a borderline all star when hes at this best.

You're acting like I'm trashing Allen when all I'm saying is I don't consider him being elite

Yes Lou Will and Ginobli were more efficient than Levert. But I think he can play at an efficient level if hes healthy as he has shown previously.

Also I think its funny how you're telling me I'm comparing Levert to a HOFer when I never even brought up Ginobli. YOU DID lol. I said Lou Will. Whos certainly not a HOF level player.

I agree that Caris has to stay healthy, but I'm willing to make that bet. He was already good shooter this year and I think he can keep improving. I think its much easier for him to play defense if hes not carrying the load offensively.

I see your point, I just think Allen adds little value to this team with Jordan. I think we still need a third scorer like Levert.

Having a solid roll big like Allen in a line up that features KD, Kyrie, and Joe Harris will add a ton of value, I disagree. Allen will be feasting off of dunks and put backs next season. Meanwhile, DeAndre Jordan will be 33 years old next year, he is in the danger zone as far as player declines are concerned. If we choose Jordan over Allen, it will be a serious mistake.

The central question remains:

Do we plan on resigning Allen for a bigger contract next off season?

If not then why not trade him we can get value back? And get a player who fills a need rather than give us a luxury.

I don't view Allen as a luxury, but a necessity. DeAndre Jordan is going to be 33 years old. That's not someone you're going to be relying on as a starting center for the next 2-3 seasons.

I don't see why the Nets wouldn't resign him. We can't be cheap right now we have a small window to win and we need all the talent we can get.

[DarkXaero]

You are not getting Jrue without giving up at LEAST levert and allen. and thats probably not close to enough. Levert isnt some blue chip assets. many teams may view him as a neutral asset.

What value does he have to a bad team? he is not good enough to lead a team to wins. he is not bad enough that you get a top 5 pick. he is not young enough to invest in some big ceiling.

What value does he have for a good team? he has not shown an ability to be productive when not the 1st option or 1b. he has not shown the ability to play with other #1 options. he has not shown the ability to play off ball. you cant rely on him to stay healthy

His best fit is a a bad team that isnt quite high lotto territory. he gives the fans falso hopes while you reboot and you can blame health and patience while you lose games.

for someone like Beal, Jrue, Lavine, or any big names like that it will take a MINIMUM of Levert/Allen/#19/2022 1st

I fully disagree there. Reading the articles that source NBA executives and players, and just seeing national TV commentators, media personalities/ex players, teammates, fans discuss Levert, its clear that there is a huge difference in your perception of Levert and the league's. I get it that you don't like him a player, but you often have a problem where your valuation of a player is way off from what others see, and then you project your perception to others.

You and I agree on a lot of things about Levert, but I can see the upside of Levert, and why teams would view him positively. There's also a huge difference between Jrue (a 30 year old expiring contract on a lotto team), and Lavine (a 25 year old efficient scorer on value contract), and Beal (arguably a top 15 player). Jrue's value should not be close to the other two guys for obvious reasons.

[Prokorov]

You and I agree on a lot of things about Levert, but I can see the upside of Levert, and why teams would view him positively. There's also a huge difference between Jrue (a 30 year old expiring contract on a lotto team), and Lavine (a 25 year old efficient scorer on value contract), and Beal (arguably a top 15 player). Jrue's value should not be close to the other two guys for obvious reasons.

all 3 have huge value. leverts value is probably at its peak, and its nuetral or slightly above.

announces always suck off anyone who plays well for a stretch or in game

[DarkXaero]

You and I agree on a lot of things about Levert, but I can see the upside of Levert, and why teams would view him positively. There's also a huge difference between Jrue (a 30 year old expiring contract on a lotto team), and Lavine (a 25 year old efficient scorer on value contract), and Beal (arguably a top 15 player). Jrue's value should not be close to the other two guys for obvious reasons.

all 3 have huge value. leverts value is probably at its peak, and its nuetral or slightly above.

announces always suck off anyone who plays well for a stretch or in game

Levert's value is likely at its peak as a Net. He can definitely boost his value elsewhere if he gets the chance to be the featured option, assuming he stays relatively healthy.

And it's not just announcers, Levert got a lot of positive attention league wide this year. You have to understand the difference between what you personally think of a player, and how the player is perceived by others.

[Prokorov]

You and I agree on a lot of things about Levert, but I can see the upside of Levert, and why teams would view him positively. There's also a huge difference between Jrue (a 30 year old expiring contract on a lotto team), and Lavine (a 25 year old efficient scorer on value contract), and Beal (arguably a top 15 player). Jrue's value should not be close to the other two guys for obvious reasons.

all 3 have huge value. leverts value is probably at its peak, and its nuetral or slightly above.

announces always suck off anyone who plays well for a stretch or in game

Levert's value is likely at its peak as a Net. He can definitely boost his value elsewhere if he gets the chance to be the featured option, assuming he stays relatively healthy.

And it's not just announcers, Levert got a lot of positive attention league wide this year. You have to understand the difference between what you personally think of a player, and how the player is perceived by others.

i think YOU need to understand that. no one is going to giv levert a chance to be the featured option because he is a below avg volume scorer who cant stay healthy. he has jordan clarkson type value

[DarkXaero]

all 3 have huge value. leverts value is probably at its peak, and its nuetral or slightly above.

announces always suck off anyone who plays well for a stretch or in game

Levert's value is likely at its peak as a Net. He can definitely boost his value elsewhere if he gets the chance to be the featured option, assuming he stays relatively healthy.

And it's not just announcers, Levert got a lot of positive attention league wide this year. You have to understand the difference between what you personally think of a player, and how the player is perceived by others.

i think YOU need to understand that. no one is going to giv levert a chance to be the featured option because he is a below avg volume scorer who cant stay healthy. he has jordan clarkson type value

I'm not trying to be hostile, but it's something you have a habit of doing on this forum, and GB. Like I said, I don't even necessarily disagree with you on many things about Levert. Your very low opinion of Levert happens to be in the minority though. It doesn't mean that the rest of the league sees it the same way that you do. That is essentially what you're trying to argue when you tell us that we're overrating Levert, and many teams won't view him positively. If we were to put Levert on the trading block right now, I will bet that there will be many offers.

6'7" guards with his talent, and high character aren't easy to find. He has his flaws, and he hasn't been able to put it together yet (yes I know he's 26), but the potential is still there. And each year, he has shown greater flashes of talent. He makes a lot of sense for any rebuilding team out there.