The Official Andrea Bargnani Thread

[kerry kittles]

You are literally bitching just to bitch, it is a low risk MINIMUM signing to see if this guy can stretch the floor for us in spot minutes. You bitch about Thad, bitch about D-Will getting kicked out of here, bitch bitch bitch. The Nets need shooting in any way possible without compromising the cap space. Psycho T is not a shooter. Vet min signings do not **** up cap space. The guy will either hit shots when he gets minutes, or he will sit. Big deal. You act like they brought him in here to play 36 mins a night

Billy King, to his credit, has done his best to dig this team out of the mess he and the Russians have made and frankly, I think he's doing a decent job with the limited resources that he has.

Calm down, seriously.

He's not really spacing the court. He's a 30% 3 point shooter over the last 4 years and the number of 3's he's taken each of the last 4 years has decreased. He took under 2 3 point fied goal attempts/game.

I'm sorry but I have to agree with MDB on this one.

People are complaining about Bargs because of his failed history as the Raps #1 overall pick and expected #1/#2 option and as a near 30mpg player on the Knicks. His role on the Nets won't be anything close to that. The only reason why he'd even be in the rotation consistently is because he happened to play better than other guys, not because he has earned that right.

Hell, aside from Jarrett Jack being a coach's favorite (and every coach has at least one), if there's one thing I like about Hollins it's that he won't play you if you suck. He doesn't care about the name on the back of the jersey. He's benched Lopez and D-Will. He does not care who you are. If you're terrible, you're going to the bench.


Regarding the spacing issue, you and others are actually wrong about this.

Bargs is a career 30% 3pt shooter.

Dare I bring up the idea that Bogs actually knows he's not a good 3pt shooter too hence the reason why he shot the fewest 3PA per 36min of his career last season and had a respectable percentage? It's not like he went out there and was constantly jacking up 3s. The dude took the fewest threes of his career even when you equalize minutes played per game and he knocked them down at a decent rate when he took them.

So he had a career low 3PA rate but he had a career high in % of FGA from 10-16ft and 16ft <3pt line. He increased the number of midrange and long distance jumpers to the degree that 10-16ft shots comprised 20.2% of his total shots and the 16ft <3pt line jumpers made up another 33% of his shots. 53% of Bargs FGAs came between 10ft and the 3pt line.

Guess what his FG% was for those ranges?

10-16ft: 45.2%
16<3pt: 44.5%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bargnan01.html

Out of 79 NBA players who attempted at least 2.0 FGpg from the 15-19ft range, he was 20th in FG% (1.4FG/3.2FGA) (45.2%) which was actually better than Melo (2.2FG/5.1FGA, 43.6%) and everyone knows how good Melo is as a mid-range shooter.
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/shooting/?sort=15-19%20ft.%20FG%20PCT&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=15-19%20ft.%20FGA*G*2.0

Out of the 261 players who attempted at least 1.0 FGpg from 20-24ft range, he was 8th in FG% (0.9FG/1.9FGA) at 48.1% which was markedly better than Melo (1.4FG/3.3FGA) at 424% (38th in that ranking). Even Steph Curry had a lower FG% (1.6FG/3.6FGA, 44.1 FG%, 23rd in the league) in that range than Bargs.
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/shooting/?sort=20-24%20ft.%20FG%20PCT&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=20-24%20ft.%20FGA*G*1.0

The point is not to say Bargs is better than Melo or Steph Curry lol. Both of those guys are stars, clear cut #1 options and receive way more defensive attention than Bargs does.

However, the point is to prove that as a non-#1 option playing over 25mpg, Bargs was a good volume shooter from mid-range out to the 3pt line extended and he was more selective with his 3pt shot (which makes sense since he wasn't asked to be the #1 option like the Raptors).

Bargs role on this team will be a stretch 5/4 for 10-15mpg.

If we need help defense from the 5 for a time (guess what?), Bargs won't be in.
(His post man defense is actually pretty underrated and people who are more interested in basketball analysis and less interested in making themselves feel better about their lives by trying to make fun of bad NBA players will actually admit that.)

He'd only be in when Hollins believes having scoring from the mid-range area would beneficial for a few minutes.

It's a 2 year contract. It commits some more salary to the books in 2016-17 and another roster spot. It's not a one year minimum contract.

It's a 2 year veteran minimum contract with a player option in the 2nd year. The key word is minimum.

Are you really complaining about $1.4mil out of a $90mil salary cap next year? And you're acting like that is untradeable and unwaive-able.

I mean seriously, you're making much out of nothing.

We sign Bargs who has a reputation as poor locker room guy, is a low effort player. Now the narrative is his shooting - which he really isn't all that good at trumps his poor attitude/work ethic things you were preaching after we cut ties with Thad.

Players aren't going to Bogs for veteran leadership and quotes of the day. He's a vet min player who could easily be waived like every other vet min contract in the history of the NBA.

He's not playing major minutes unless 3-4 of our big men go down with season-ending injuries.
He's not Deron Williams who verbally said that he and his family didn't like being in the city.

You're sipping the Kool-Aid for hating on Bargs because it's so easy to do that.

No one is expecting him to be a world beater. We all know his flaws. In some areas, they're quite severe. However, that's what role players are.

Flawed players who are probably good at 1 or 2 things and if they're restricted from doing anything they're not good at, they can provide a positive spark. That's all we're looking at with him, nothing more.

Regarding the long two's. Yes, he's taking more of them, but they are the worst shot in basketball. If you're hitting 30% on 3's on 100 possessions you're hitting 30 3's, scoring 90 points. If you're hitting 44% of long two's you're making 44 baskets - scoring 88 points. That's why it's the worst shot in basketball and an issue most of the shots he's taking are long 2's.

Statistics have supported that Bargs has made teams worse as he may score in spurts, but is allows a ton of baskets and rebounds. don't like the 2nd year. We looked at the Marquis Teague trade as a terrible player for our terrible players, but the issue was Teague's contract extended another year and we had to give up a 2nd round pick to move him. So could be a similar cost, not a huge cost, but something you'd prefer not to do. I'm not really a fan of this move. Would have loved us looking at Cole Aldrich before he signed for a vet min contract with LAC.

[Keith Van Horn]

Good luck! The guy is the most infuriating player you'll ever have the honor of watching. I hope he does get benched, routinely, because otherwise you might lose you minds.

For the vet minimum though, there's no need to play him. If he sucks, just cut him.

esactly. It's not like we're going to be forced to play him.

Hollins won' put up with his BS. He benched both Deron and Lopez last year, and look what happened. Lopez responded and started killing it, and Deron shriveled up and whined, and ended up getting tossed to the curb. If they will cut their $100 million dollar player, you don't think they're going to cut AB?

It's AB on the min, it's not the end of the world.

Worst case scenario is that Robinson, Reed, Alexander, or Jefferson will see his minutes. What do we have to lose?

When I first saw the signing, I threw up in my mouth. The more I think about it and his fit, it's not that bad. Especially when we have 10 backup options if he doesn't work.

[kerry kittles]

Re #3. I'll repeat myself "He's not really spacing the court. He's a 30% 3 point shooter over the last 4 years and the number of 3's he's taken each of the last 4 years has decreased. He took under 2 3 point fied goal attempts/game"

That's call intelligence. It might be a foreign concept for you for some reason but if what you are doing isnt working then maybe it's time to move in a little closer to make a higher % shot.

People like 3pter just for the sake of analytics. When you miss shots, especially 3 pointers, it tends to lead to fast break points. Give me the guy like Jack who hits half of his long two's and forces the opponent to take the ball out of the basket. We get to set our defense when that happens.

A 30% 3 point shooter > a 44% long two shooter. Thanks for the personal attack F3lon

[CalamityX12]

Hey everyone its a Calamity Post!!!

Ok my initial reaction to learning of the Bargnani signing:
- And'1 posts that I agreed with lol
- I felt more good than a "wtf" feel.
- this shouldn't be awful

I'm a NETs fan, for me, I see Bargnani "possibly/potentially" bringing off the bench as a serviceable backup C or big. A big man as a stretch four or 5 that can knock down shots, mid range or deep ball. He could be a spark plug, no defense expectations TBH. If we can teach/tame Lopez to get rebounds, Bargs shouldn't be too challenging IMO. He offers a different skillset to Young, Trob, CJ, Reed as a player. He's not offense inept, he may his omg moments but he's an offensive mind by nature so teaching him offense isn't a concern but teaching him defense is doable. Don't expect a lockdown defender by any means and expectations won't be short.

What were my concerns the day or hour before signing Bargs?
Outside shooting? Check.
A big man(yes there's Reed as i'm warming up to) to backup Lopez? Check.
A big that can hit mid range shots? check.
A good FT shooting big? check.
Another real 7 footer? check.

Am I going to fool myself into thinking we got LMA here? NO! lol.... for the price, expectations, needs.... and i'm pretty good at bitching, I can't see anything wrong here. Mirza was no god behind the 3, so whats the worse that Bargs can do?

A great night is seeing both Bargs and Lopez out there offensively, dominating..... that may be a pipe dream but its an upside. We added an upside IMO. If it doesn't work out, then it would be like we never signed the guy in the first place....

[kamaze]

Interesting did bit from NI in his latest article....Bargs approached the Nets in the 11th hour according to a source. He was the one asking to come here! So this absurd notion he came here because of a promise of PT is ridiculous. Plus Hollins makes the decisions on the court...not King.

As for the signing...I like it. We need to take on reclamation projects like this like we did with Blatche and Green. He's the only stretch big we have.

As for the can't shoot because of four year sample...
A. Why not look at last year when he was 45%/36%
B. Mirza was worse shooting and got 5x the money
C. Defenses still aren't going to leave him open regardless

I swear some people will complain no matter what. How about we see how he does?
If he doesn't work out he cost us about $300k more than the roster hold would have. That's not exactly going to make or break anything.

I hear you signed on a one year vet min contract with a players option on the second. They needed another center and they got one who knows how the season will work out.

[Keith Van Horn]

Except Thad Young is the starting PF, not Bargs. Lopez and Bargs would rarely play together.

If they're ever on the court at the same time, it would be because Bargs would be playing well (by some miracle) while Thad and the 3 other bigs are getting a breather.

The stupidity being spewed in this thread from fans outside of our forum is astounding. They actually think we brought him in here to start...at least have a clue about the team you're trying to talk about before hitting the submit button

But here's the thing. I completely understand it.

Bargs is an extremely easy target because he failed big time as a Raptors #1/#2 option. They gave him a big contract. Therefore, just about every Canadian hates him and makes fun of him.

Bargs was pretty bad as a Knick because he 1) missed plenty of time and 2) the Knicks bought into the hype and figured that if he was a 3rd-4th option, he'd be able to contribute. Because he still didn't succeed in that role, he gets dumped on by everyone. They gave up their remaining pick swap rights to acquire him (since they already dealt agreed to a pick swap with the 2016 pick in an earlier trade.)

Now, he's on the Nets where he'll barely play. He'll only be brought in for a few minutes per game to stretch the floor and give Lopez a breather. We're paying him a vet min contract.

People want to ignore all of that because they want to find a reason to laugh at Bargs and laugh at another failure.

It doesn't matter that it's a vet min contract and he won't play that much unless he somehow ends up being a positive force. It's just the principle that we've signed him that makes a 5+ page thread with way more comments from fans from other teams than any other vet min signing (save David West on the Spurs).

If this seriously is what makes people laugh, go ahead and enjoy a good knee-slapper. At worst, he's cut and we go with the other 5 bigs on the team. At best, he actually plays decent in his 10mpg and he ends up having the last laugh.

It's a move with 0 risk and average reward. But people want to see it as a high risk, no reward situation so they can laugh and that's exactly what they're doing. Whatever floats their boat I guess.

Great points. I agree with your sentiment. At the end of the day, there is medium upside with 0 risk.

[Kingsfan88]

I don't which is worse. Heated in depth discussion over Bargnani or fans thinking adding Bargnani in a third string role will make us miss the playoffs.

Like I said he wouldn't turn down more money to be a third string on a fringe playoff team. Some kind of incentive was offered. He has the same agent as Carmelo Anthony, the guy should be fired if he turned down more money so his client could be a third stringer.

Just wait and see I guess

[Universe]

F3lon, Mirza is not worse than Bargs, come on now.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/johnschuhmann/status/620367766915158016[/tweet]

1. Bargs is the worse help defender in the league. Ask Raptors fans, ask Knicks. As much as we may complain about Mirza Bargs is worse in this regard.

2. Bargs TRB% was below 10% last year and is for his career. Mirza has never been below 10%.

3. Mirza is a better 3 point shooter. He's a career 36% 3 point shooter. Bargs has shot 30.1% over the past 4 years. Mirza takes more 3's and makes more 3's.

Who would you have signed for the minimum then who still is on the market?

Bargs is a negative on the court. I would roll the dice with one of our younger players instead of rolling with Bargs as there would be great upside. On a vet min I'd look at Withey or Hansbrough instead of Bargs. I also would've pursued Cole Aldrich more aggressively who just signed a vet min contract a couple days ago.

This is also a two year deal if Bargs opts in next year. I don't know why we gave him a 2nd year. It adds some salary to the books next year and gives up a roster spot.

We are rolling the dice with younger players. You really think a bench with five rookies would be any more successful? I like Jeff Withey but Tyler and Aldrich do exactly what we want Robinson to do so that would also be pointless.

And this nonsense about his three point percentage is hilarious. He is a center who shoots threes. Last year he shot a better percentage than mostly everyone on the roster. Channing Frye just got paid last year $32 million to do exactly what we want Bargs to do.

Having watched him on the Raptors for a number of years, I understand why they are upset with him. Most never stop talking about LaMarcus Aldridge or even Brandon Roy. For Knicks fans I do not understand the hate for him aside from giving up picks. He barely played yet the story plays out like he was the main reason for losing seasons.

If anyone should be mad at a recent signing, it should be that we signed Earl Clark instead of taking a flyer on Aaron Craft or even Willie Reed.

[Universe]

I don't which is worse. Heated in depth discussion over Bargnani or fans thinking adding Bargnani in a third string role will make us miss the playoffs.

Like I said he wouldn't turn down more money to be a third string on a fringe playoff team. Some kind of incentive was offered. He has the same agent as Carmelo Anthony, the guy should be fired if he turned down more money so his client could be a third stringer.

Just wait and see I guess

He turned down an extra $500,000 to stay in New York. He has made over $72 million in his career on salaries alone.

[Prokorov]

Everyone complained about lack of floor spacing. He was the last remaining option. Beggars can't be choosers. I hope we can still keep Alexander.

I dont see how bargini really helps our spacing though. I mean, unless he starts at PF, which we probably dont want to happen. to improve spacing, we need a PG who can start and hit the 3. Bargani shooting well off the bench doenst help the spacing in our starting lineup.

I dont hate the move. our second unit was going to need someone who could score. i dont love it either though. Bargs just seems like a negative impact guy no matter where he has been and in what role.

Hopefully he can come here and work well as lopez backup. i dont have high hopes, but we could do worse... as you said our options were limited at backup C and beggars cant be choosers

[CalamityX12]

Bargs looked bad defensively, i'm sure we all see the gifs of his LOL moments...

while he is responsible in the end for his play, those knicks teams did everything but win or play defense... so i'm not going to use that against him.

Lets see how he responds to Hollins' system first and foremost.

[Trader_Joe]

I don't which is worse. Heated in depth discussion over Bargnani or fans thinking adding Bargnani in a third string role will make us miss the playoffs.

Like I said he wouldn't turn down more money to be a third string on a fringe playoff team. Some kind of incentive was offered. He has the same agent as Carmelo Anthony, the guy should be fired if he turned down more money so his client could be a third stringer.

Just wait and see I guess

He supposedly approached the Nets to come here.
He didn't want to leave NY.

And King could have said whatever..it's up to Hollins to make on court decisions.
$500k isn't much to give up for someone who has made as much money as him.

Meanwhile wouldn't he have been behind Cousins/WCS/Koufos as C's for Sacramento?
I realize Cousins and WCS will play PF as well, but he'd still be the 4th worst C on a fringe PO team in a small market.

[jeff1624]

I'm gonna lose it if King declines Cory Jeffersons player option because of Bargnani.

[Trader_Joe]

I'm gonna lose it if King declines Cory Jeffersons player option because of Bargnani.

It might have been declined regardless.

[Paradise]

I don't which is worse. Heated in depth discussion over Bargnani or fans thinking adding Bargnani in a third string role will make us miss the playoffs.

Quote one post that says he will make us miss the playoffs.

I wasn't talking about in here. I mean the the GB.

[kerry kittles]

Who would you have signed for the minimum then who still is on the market?

Bargs is a negative on the court. I would roll the dice with one of our younger players instead of rolling with Bargs as there would be great upside. On a vet min I'd look at Withey or Hansbrough instead of Bargs. I also would've pursued Cole Aldrich more aggressively who just signed a vet min contract a couple days ago.

This is also a two year deal if Bargs opts in next year. I don't know why we gave him a 2nd year. It adds some salary to the books next year and gives up a roster spot.

We are rolling the dice with younger players. You really think a bench with five rookies would be any more successful? I like Jeff Withey but Tyler and Aldrich do exactly what we want Robinson to do so that would also be pointless.

And this nonsense about his three point percentage is hilarious. He is a center who shoots threes. Last year he shot a better percentage than mostly everyone on the roster. Channing Frye just got paid last year $32 million to do exactly what we want Bargs to do.

Having watched him on the Raptors for a number of years, I understand why they are upset with him. Most never stop talking about LaMarcus Aldridge or even Brandon Roy. For Knicks fans I do not understand the hate for him aside from giving up picks. He barely played yet the story plays out like he was the main reason for losing seasons.

If anyone should be mad at a recent signing, it should be that we signed Earl Clark instead of taking a flyer on Aaron Craft or even Willie Reed.

My point regarding the 3 point shooting is he only made 15 3's last year. It's a very small sample size. Over the past few years he hasn't shot the 3 well.

[NyCeEvO]

Regarding the long two's. Yes, he's taking more of them, but they are the worst shot in basketball. If you're hitting 30% on 3's on 100 possessions you're hitting 30 3's, scoring 90 points. If you're hitting 44% of long two's you're making 44 baskets - scoring 88 points. That's why it's the worst shot in basketball and an issue most of the shots he's taking are long 2's.

You're conflating "lowest return on shot type" with "quality of shot".

Statistically speaking, the long two yields the lowest return because there is a much lower chance of you making a long 2 than a close 2 and you get a higher return on stepping back for a 3 than stepping in for a long 2.

The problem is that basketball isn't a game where every shot taken is a wide-open shot like you'd get in practice. NBA defenses know that it's easier for you to score close to the basket and so many of them pack the paint to discourage you from attacking and to take shots from outside the paint.

The ability to hit a midrange shot is a positive skill, not a negative one. If you attack the paint but there are two defenders there, it greatly reduces the likelihood of you making the shot and it could easily render what normally is a high percentage type of field goal attempt into a low one because the act of you shooting is being impeded.

If teams pack the paint and but leave the first man open from midrange, you don't keep passing it until someone can attempt a 3. If a guy is one of the league leaders in midrange shooting and he's the first one open, you pass him the ball and take your points.

If Bargs is open and another player with an above 30+% 3pt shot is open, you pass it to the guy who's open for 3. However, it's rare that multiple people will be open consistently. You take whatever shot the defense gives you and if they give Bargs the open midrange while everyone else is covered, that is a good shot.

Oh, and by the way, Bogs shot 60.5% from 0-3ft, which is what you expect from every starting scoring big in the league. It's not like he can't make a shot on the inside.

D-Will, on the other hand, was 45.7%from that range which is just dreadful on all accounts even for a PG.

When you get to the basket, it's critical that you actually put the ball in the hoop from the spots where you have the highest potential to score. Bogs can do that too.

Statistics have supported that Bargs has made teams worse as he may score in spurts, but is allows a ton of baskets and rebounds. don't like the 2nd year. We looked at the Marquis Teague trade as a terrible player for our terrible players, but the issue was Teague's contract extended another year and we had to give up a 2nd round pick to move him. So could be a similar cost, not a huge cost, but something you'd prefer not to do. I'm not really a fan of this move. Would have loved us looking at Cole Aldrich before he signed for a vet min contract with LAC.

Statistics show that when Bargs plays 25+mpg, the negative impact of his flaws outweighs the positive impact of his positive attributes. This is the same thing that happens to every non-starter. When you're skilled at one or two things but serve as a detriment in others, your role should be adjusted to the degree that you're put in a position to maximize the positives while minimizing the negatives.

Marquis Teague is terrible at everything. Bargs is actually good at something. Bargs will come in for a few minutes to try to maximize his ability of stretching the floor while minimizing his poor overall defense.

He will be going up against the opponents reserves, not their starters like he did with the Raptors and Knicks. If he fails at that, he will be benched or waived.

As you know, I'm no Billy King apologist but every move he's made up to this point has been more important than signing the backup/3rd string C role.

We re-signed Lopez, Thad and signed T-Rob, Willie Reed before this. 3 days ago King was rescinding Mirza's QO and finalizing a buyout for D-Will which allowed us to get under the LTT, perform S&Ts, and use the full MLE and BAE.

All of those moves are already or have the potential to be more significant than the difference between having Bargs and Aldrich on the team. And again, Billy wanted a player who can stretch the floor from the big man position. Aldrich does not provide that.

[Universe]

Bargs is a negative on the court. I would roll the dice with one of our younger players instead of rolling with Bargs as there would be great upside. On a vet min I'd look at Withey or Hansbrough instead of Bargs. I also would've pursued Cole Aldrich more aggressively who just signed a vet min contract a couple days ago.

This is also a two year deal if Bargs opts in next year. I don't know why we gave him a 2nd year. It adds some salary to the books next year and gives up a roster spot.

We are rolling the dice with younger players. You really think a bench with five rookies would be any more successful? I like Jeff Withey but Tyler and Aldrich do exactly what we want Robinson to do so that would also be pointless.

And this nonsense about his three point percentage is hilarious. He is a center who shoots threes. Last year he shot a better percentage than mostly everyone on the roster. Channing Frye just got paid last year $32 million to do exactly what we want Bargs to do.

Having watched him on the Raptors for a number of years, I understand why they are upset with him. Most never stop talking about LaMarcus Aldridge or even Brandon Roy. For Knicks fans I do not understand the hate for him aside from giving up picks. He barely played yet the story plays out like he was the main reason for losing seasons.

If anyone should be mad at a recent signing, it should be that we signed Earl Clark instead of taking a flyer on Aaron Craft or even Willie Reed.

My point regarding the 3 point shooting is he only made 15 3's last year. It's a very small sample size. Over the past few years he hasn't shot the 3 well.

It's not even about the three ball. Long twos help create space so our guards can drive. He is capable of both so he's either left wide open or he draws his man out from the key.

[NyCeEvO]

Everyone complained about lack of floor spacing. He was the last remaining option. Beggars can't be choosers. I hope we can still keep Alexander.

I dont see how bargini really helps our spacing though. I mean, unless he starts at PF, which we probably dont want to happen. to improve spacing, we need a PG who can start and hit the 3. Bargani shooting well off the bench doenst help the spacing in our starting lineup.

I dont hate the move. our second unit was going to need someone who could score. i dont love it either though. Bargs just seems like a negative impact guy no matter where he has been and in what role.

Hopefully he can come here and work well as lopez backup. i dont have high hopes, but we could do worse... as you said our options were limited at backup C and beggars cant be choosers

But that's the thing. No one is going "YES, Bargs is the savior!"

Personally, I understand the logic behind signing Bargs and it was only to a vet min deal. If it was a nameless player with the same flaws and skills signed to a vet min deal to play 10mpg as a reserve (or even 3rd string 4/5 role) no one bats an eye. But because it's Bargs, everyone loses their mind and decries that he'll single-handedly bring down the team with his 5-10 minutes of play.

His impact is just being greatly exaggerated and people are making a tremendous deal out of absolutely nothing.

[NyCeEvO]

I'm gonna lose it if King declines Cory Jeffersons player option because of Bargnani.

It might have been declined regardless.

I'm sorry Cory Jefferson is not an NBA basketball player (at least not yet).

He needs way more time to develop before being able to do anything remotely positive on the floor. I lose 0 sleep if he's cut today.