Lopez for Reggie Jackson falls apart; Nets acquire Thad Young for KG (UPDATE: Page 58)

[enetric]

As long as King is GM we're gonna continue getting shafted on trades.. Even on ones we don't make.

But did we get shafted today? If you believe Wojo...Nets were all in on that trade. OKC made a different move.


And had we made that trade...I still say roster would not have improved for this season plus...Heat and Celtics still made bigger moves.

A report came out that the Nets were angry with OKC for leaving them with no time to explore other trades. That in itself is laughable. You're a GM of a profession basketball team... how do you sit banking on one trade without a contingency plan? It reminds me of 2012 with Dwight. Dwight picked up his option and King made the Wallace trade because he panicked and had no backup plan.

Well then this would be the opposite right? he didnt panic and compound the issue by making a bad trade.

(Although granted, we dont have much to trade these days....lol)

[enetric]

Not moving JJ was foolish. This team is going to be lethargic because everyone looks to him for leadership and him being the highest paid. JJ doesnt care anymore and his attitude seeps thru the team. Dwill is just a mentally shaken chicken heart who the players shake their head at.

Do you have first hand knowledge of a trade for JJ that KING turned down? Not the rumored Detroit deal that we can assume they walked away from but one you can point to that WE turned down.

[enetric]

If they only let him draft players and maybe work on minor FAs while hiring a separate trade and major FA GM he wouldn't be too bad.

I agree. He's made dumb trades but has an eye for certain talent. The Gerald Wallace trade pretty much ruined the positive future this team could have had.

Take away the pick swaps and the JJ deal would have been fine.

In other words...get the All star SG for nothing? Or do you mean...had the picks NOT been swapped as a result of record? Because...

At the time the Hawks were a perennial 7/8 team who was dumping JJ for 4 expiring guys 3 of which left the NBA and the dumped Josh Smith. We were the team that supposedly had top 10 NBA superstar Deron Williams, a 23 year old all star center and were adding 6 time all star Joe Johnson to a team owned by a guy who was prepared to spend even more to get a title.

No one expected those picks to ever be swapped. The thought was, they were rebuilding for the next few years and we would be a playoff team for the next few.

That a was a very reasonable gamble that unfortunately backfired. But it wasnt a high price to pay at the time. That's why its a mistake to attach actual pick value years after the fact to a trade. If it had gone the other way...and we had the better record we would have said...we stole him.

[F3LON]

Here is a thought.

We need to get rid of DWill and the Kings have shown interest in him. If Rudy Gay isnt one of Karl's guys I would love to revist trading DWill to them for Gay and Stauskas. This of course would be contingent on resigning Blatche since he is the perfect Lopez insurance.

Gay / Stauskas

for

DWill / Plumlee


I think playing an undersized, quick PF like Young makes sense next to Lopez as it almost dares teams to post up which allows Lopez to play to his strengths. Gay is like Young in that he can play some small ball PF also and is a good wing defender. Slide JJ back to SG and now I think we have something. We can swith 1-4 on PnR. We would be sacrificing rebounds but the defense would be much more disruptive. The core would be:

Lopez - Blatche
Young
Gay - Bogs
JJ - Stauskas
Jack

[MrDollarBills]

Losing KG will be a major blow defensively. His communication and his defensive BBIQ is what you will miss with KG. I can see your defense turning into crap w/o KG. Offensively, he didn't do much good at this point of his career. Young is an upgrade in that sense.

Our defense was already crap with KG here.

[MrDollarBills]

enetric: I don't think anyone is crying over the Boston deal, we were all on board because we thought that

a)Lopez would be healthy
b)Deron would be worth a damn

Neither of that worked out, compounded with the fact that KG got traded here while on his last legs.

The Wallace trade and the Johnson pick swaps are inexcusable actions. The Hawks were in no position to even talk about having access to our picks. King clearly threw his buddy danny ferry a bone and it backfired horribly.

[MrDollarBills]

I agree. He's made dumb trades but has an eye for certain talent. The Gerald Wallace trade pretty much ruined the positive future this team could have had.

Take away the pick swaps and the JJ deal would have been fine.

In other words...get the All star SG for nothing? Or do you mean...had the picks NOT been swapped as a result of record? Because...

At the time the Hawks were a perennial 7/8 team who was dumping JJ for 4 expiring guys 3 of which left the NBA and the dumped Josh Smith. We were the team that supposedly had top 10 NBA superstar Deron Williams, a 23 year old all star center and were adding 6 time all star Joe Johnson to a team owned by a guy who was prepared to spend even more to get a title.

No one expected those picks to ever be swapped. The thought was, they were rebuilding for the next few years and we would be a playoff team for the next few.

That a was a very reasonable gamble that unfortunately backfired. But it wasnt a high price to pay at the time. That's why its a mistake to attach actual pick value years after the fact to a trade. If it had gone the other way...and we had the better record we would have said...we stole him.

Get the all star PG for nothing? No one was trading for Johnson's contract at that time besides us for the Hawks had zero leverage especially when they were desperate to get rid of him...if I'm wrong, please name another team that was rumored to even remotely pick up the tab for Joe Johnson's god awful contract.

[enetric]

Also no excuses at this point. No more pussy basketball from Brook or Deron. I pray to god they play solid and consistent basketball and help their trade value so we can ship them out for better youth and assets this summer.

You seriously think that these two guys are going to play hard?

Williams is content on being a 2nd string PG making max dollars. Lopez will coast like he usually does and he'll walk in the summer for nothing.

There is nothing remotely good about the situation at hand. Nothing.

I am sorry but I think Hollins has to take a lot of the blame for how things have gone with Lopez this year. In past seasons while we may have questioned some things....when healthy this guys has for the most part impressed. This is the first time he has been healthy and it has been this frustrating. I think Hollins has wreaked havoc on this kid.

[enetric]

on what planet is thad young a "massive" upgrade to KG? the guy has a 14 PER averages 5 reounds a game and has a 49 TS%. i get he can play back to backs and more minutes but no way is he any more then a minor upgrade to KG. plus he adds 10 million in salary so we no longer get out of the tax anymore

The guy can run and jump at the age of a 26yr old compared to 38yr old KG. That alone is a massive upgrade. Defensively he leaves something to be desired, but KG wasn't even playing enough minutes for his defense to even be noted as great or anything. Thad can spread the floor some, run in transition, catch oops, and he seemed to have a high motor when playing meaningful basketball.

I'm glad he can run and is 26.... we need the athleticism. but the other stuff is ballwashing and he is not a massive or even sizeable upgrade to garnett.

"spread the floor some"? he spreads the floor the same way josh smith does, by taking and missing long jumpers. 29% from 3PT range and 30% from 16+ feet out. So no, he does not spread the floor. As an offensive player he has been really poor this year, and career wise he has been been average at best. saying anything else is being really kind.

I dont want to bash Thad because I like him. But he is what he is:

An undersized 4 (6'8") who gives you a ton of energy and hustle who has some skill on both ends. That is something we need, but he isnt some big upgrade to KG. he lacks size, he doesnt rebound well(which may be an issue considering he is replacing out best rebounder), who has some real issues scoring on plays that arent made for him with some poor shot selection.

I'm glad he is here, im not sure if he makes us better then KG. he can play more which i love, he is athletic which i love, but rebounding now becomes a major issue, especially if he is on the floor with brook. i also worry about him and brook taking long 2's while both shoot it at a horrible percentage.

If you want to be excited he is here thats fine, i kind of am. but lets pump the brakes on the "massive upgrade" stuff. He isnt close to that[/quote]

He is better than Lance though.

[enetric]

Also no excuses at this point. No more pussy basketball from Brook or Deron. I pray to god they play solid and consistent basketball and help their trade value so we can ship them out for better youth and assets this summer.

You seriously think that these two guys are going to play hard?

Williams is content on being a 2nd string PG making max dollars. Lopez will coast like he usually does and he'll walk in the summer for nothing.

There is nothing remotely good about the situation at hand. Nothing.

I think it could happen actually. Things and circumstances change.... I wouldn't rule it out that Deron looks like he did when he won player of the week at the start of the season, and Brook looks better with a new front court mate. It could happen.... I know I'm reach but just trying to be optimistic here.


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Well, we are about due for a coaching change its been almost a year. That could spark these guys up. They have to feel disrespected by Hollins.

[enetric]

Did they really pay a far less price? Reggie Jackson was the key piece and they dealt him. They chose the more financially sound move. Sure...you can argue Brook has more downside due the medical history than Kanter but he also has much much much more upside. Have you seen Kanter play? Meh!

yea... is he really any worse then lopez? have you seen lopez play recently?

Kanter 14/8 on 49FG% 54%TS and 17.5 PER goes

Lopez 15/6 on 50FG% 54%TS 20 PER

Lopez shoots 38.9% on 16 foot jumpers Kanter is at 36.4%

Lopez goes to the line 42 times a game Kanter 2.9

Both play 27 minutes a game

is lopez really much better? Is lopez play really more then "meh"

I know i hate i lopez, i know i probabyl undervalue him. But honestly what are you seeing where lopez is some monster upgrade to kanter, a much better player then reggie jackson, or a guy who has some kind of big impact on winning? I may go overboard, but im not far off either. and i dont just spout retoric, the numbers back this stuff up.

We can blame the coach, but i mean 4 coaches, 3 different rosters, 3 different systems and the guy hasnt really fit or had a big impact on winning on any of them. closest was when the team threw in 2 guys who dont ever shoot and had him take turns with johnson and williams. we've gone big, we've gone small. weve put shooters next to him. weve put big defending rebounder next to ghim. we started him. we brought him off the bench. he is who he is. a pretty 1 dimensional player whose dominant performances are pretty few and far between.

I'm not sure a halfcourt 18 point a game big who doesnt really give you a "plus" in any other category really has the impact you are implying he does. if he did, we wouldnt be 10 games under .500 and wouldnt have underachieved every year. it isnt all his fault, the losing and underachieving, but impact bigs help you overcome that, that dont keep you underachieving

I am not going to do the advanced metrics thing with you. That only goes so far with me. And in reverse there is only so much I can say pro Lopez before your hair would literally burst into flames!


But I will say this. I do think the all star version of Lopez was better...much better than you were giving him credit for in years past. I dont have a high opinion of Hollins. I do think that he has a lot to do with what is going on this season.

As for saying 4 coaches 3 rosters...you are glazing over the times he was playing well and injury seasons, lumping it all in there.

I am by no means saying he is great. But I think from day one so much has been ignored as to what his role might have looked like had Dwill been who he was supposed to be. That's important. An extreme example...I am much more impressed with what LMA is with Damian Lillard than what he was exaggerated to be before him. I hope you know what I mean.

Having said all of that...I do not have a crystal ball. I do not know if the best of Lopez is behind him or if Kanter will get better.

But...from what I have observed I have been far more impressed with the best of 26 year old Lopez vs. the best of 23 year old Kanter. And given a fresh start for both...if I were drafting them right now....yes....I like Lopez much more.

However, I do understand why OKC made the deal they did. Although if you believe the article....the great sage Presti "long coveted" Lopez. And there are many other pundits out there who have spoken highly of his skills in that physique. I watch Kanter and I see more of the flaws than the upside. Its not a stat thing. Its an observation thing. I mean we criticize Lopez for rebounding and D but at least the guy adds a shot blocking presence as a help defender. Kanter to me appears to be a complete defensive liability with little of Lopez real skill sets overall.

[enetric]

Yeah and I think that pick is 1-3 protected next year. Fans are gonna stop going to 76ers games soon as this rate. Same for our fans lol.

Except the 76ers are doing the right thing. The get one of these picks the be the next big thing they can become a legit contender a few years from now. See Cleveland the last 4 years...See the Thunder before they cheaped out.

I couldnt disagree more. What Philly is doing will backfire horribly. They are poisoning the well by showing the players that winning isnt important.

I dont believe that you can just have a bunch of rookies and 2nd year players come together and be good. Every team needs veteran leadership to guide young players. You ideally want rookies to come into an environment where there are more vets then young guys. Philly doesnt have any veteran leaders and the inmates will eventually run the asylum. This is a big reason why Minny brought KG in and plan to resign him. They want him to mentor Wiggins, Mohhamed and Bennett.

They will also run into problems with salary. Yeah it's nice to have a bunch of rookie contracts but when it's time for those guys to get paid, it will cause internal friction.

I dont think they can just become good. And I dont think that is the plan. The plan is to be really really bad. Stockpile assets, and preserve cap space.

The HOPE is that eventually while doing that long enough...you get to draft Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Green and Ibaka.

Or...you do like Cleveland and get 3 #1 picks and a #4 during your stretch of awful. You sign the best one long term, you use your cap space to add the VETERAN star and you trade 2 other #1 picks to get yourself a third proven all star.

That's a formula for success in this league.

Two years in a row they traded for the guy everyone felt if not injured was the best player in the draft. They have loaded for bear in the coming years with picks a plenty. They will have tons of cap space. What is needed now is luck. Where would OKC be if they had the #1pick the year they got Durant? They would have taken Oden just as every other GM would have done.

Philly to me in the face of being publicly criticized is trying to pay their dues all at once and follow a formula that we can see works within a league that is all about superstars. You get superstars by either having lottery picks or cap space. You can draft them, sign them or trade for them. Might they draft poorly or fail to get the right guy? Sure. But would 5 years of 25-40 wins be so much better?

I give them credit for staying the course. They arent trying to get slowly better. They are trying to become great down the road.

[MrDollarBills]

Also no excuses at this point. No more pussy basketball from Brook or Deron. I pray to god they play solid and consistent basketball and help their trade value so we can ship them out for better youth and assets this summer.

You seriously think that these two guys are going to play hard?

Williams is content on being a 2nd string PG making max dollars. Lopez will coast like he usually does and he'll walk in the summer for nothing.

There is nothing remotely good about the situation at hand. Nothing.

I am sorry but I think Hollins has to take a lot of the blame for how things have gone with Lopez this year. In past seasons while we may have questioned some things....when healthy this guys has for the most part impressed. This is the first time he has been healthy and it has been this frustrating. I think Hollins has wreaked havoc on this kid.

How many years are we going to continue to blame the coaches? The stuff that we're seeing from Brook is nothing new, the only difference is now he actually has a coach that doesn't tolerate his **** and another center on the roster that plays harder than him and puts up double doubles despite being while inferior offensively. Plumlee has outplayed Brook all year and goes 100%, Brook will have a monster game and then coast the next one. This has gone on for years....I don't think Hollins is perfect, but I refuse to blame him because Brook does not give max effort and cannot rise up to a coach rightfully challenging him to give his all for the team.

How come Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph love Lionel, but Brook has had "havoc" wreaked upon him?

I'll tell you why, because Gasol and Randolph aren't soft players who don't play hard.

[MrDollarBills]

You seriously think that these two guys are going to play hard?

Williams is content on being a 2nd string PG making max dollars. Lopez will coast like he usually does and he'll walk in the summer for nothing.

There is nothing remotely good about the situation at hand. Nothing.

I think it could happen actually. Things and circumstances change.... I wouldn't rule it out that Deron looks like he did when he won player of the week at the start of the season, and Brook looks better with a new front court mate. It could happen.... I know I'm reach but just trying to be optimistic here.


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Well, we are about due for a coaching change its been almost a year. That could spark these guys up. They have to feel disrespected by Hollins.

Hollins' problem is that he's a bit too honest, but all of his criticisms of these guys are spot on.

I'm sorry, i refuse to sit and make excuses for these guys. They play like **** and they dog it, and Deron and Brook especially are the biggest culprits.

I love the fact that Hollins doesn't coddle these guys. Williams and Lopez are responsible for being at the core of the culture of softness and lackadaisical play that has plagued this team over the last several seasons.

[enetric]

Yeah but see the crying over picks is the revisionist history of it all. This happens all the time. When trades like these are made the attitude is wow you stole so and so. All you gave up were picks or pick swaps? And at the time you are a playoff team and you look at the roster and see the other team and you think...no way they are better than us in 2 years to do the pick swap. Or...hey we will be a 50+ win team with this roster so no worries they will be crap picks.

I have to take you to task here.... this board was livid AT THE TIME when the wallace deal happened. a few supported it but most were up in arms we gave them our own first rounder in a loaded draft. This board was upset when VC4P pointed out there was a pick swap in the JJ trade. most still liked the deal but alot agreed it was an overpay.

there was no revisionist history on those, we were vocal back then about those picks and pick swaps.

I laugh at how all of sudden Boston KILLED us in this trade because of how it turned out. For anyone who watched the NBA draft that day it was especially entertaining to watch Bill Simmons piss and moan all night about how terrible that trade was for Boston and how shocked he was that Ainge got absolutely nothing in that deal. Just goes to show you...never trust comedic homer fan boy media personalities who gain some popularity and suddenly people think they have a clue what they are talking about. We got what we needed at time and traded up and they got what they needed for the future. Trade of directions as it should be. Perfectly justified on both sides.

This i agree 100%. the boston trade was still an excellent deal and one id do again 100 times over. It was maximizing our situation and the picks we gave up really arent that great and so far have produced james young. We got to the second round of the playoffs, the best we have done in nearly a decade since kidd and carter were here because of that trade. with lopez going down had we not had pierce and KG we dont make the playoffs.

See I dont think the Wallace deal is the same thing. That was a deal made at the deadline for a draft only 4 months later. We KNEW the price in full. We knew we were sitting on the 4th worst record and he just gave up an unprotected pick with what? 25 games left to play and injuries all over the place? That trade was a panic move for a washed up veteran because he got screwed on Deeeewight. It was one of the worst trades in NBA history. Ironically it was "a back up plan". The very thing some think he should have had yesterday. I say...some back up plans arent worth having. See WALLACE FOR A HIGH LOTTERY PICK!

So lets just focus on the Hawks trade. I do not recall the pick swap being his issue the the day of the JJ trade. I recall that being an issue later. Day of I recall it as he didnt like giving up the known pick for a player they were dumping. A we shouldn't pay them thing they should pay us. He never likes to give up picks not ever. Even though most late first are busts he LOVES HIM some unknown upside!

Anyway, its a long time ago and we would have to find the thread and look at the first reaction to the trade. I might have even hated it then. I wasnt a big fan of JJ's contract either...I mean who was?

As for the pick swap I dont mean that I cant see how it wasnt an overpay. What I meant was...no one ever expected to have to pay it!

I mean come on...no one reasonably thought that 3 years later Dwill was going to be a bum, Lopez would be coming off the bench and for sure no one thought that a Hawks team that was always a 7/8 seed team who was giving away JJ for nothing but cap space, and dumped Smith replacing them with Millsap, Teague and role player Korver a year after Horford missed 70 games would yield a #1 seed! Not 3 years ago when the deal was made...not even at the start of this season!

Both results are wildly unexpected is all I am saying. Sure...he should have been more careful. Just saying...at the time if all you are giving is one low level pick for a 6 time all star and the guy on the other end of the phone says...look. I want the right to swap picks or its a deal breaker...I can see how heading to Brooklyn year one and given a blank check by ownership how he thought...eh its never going to bite me in the ass...lol. I am going to get my third all star.

Overpay yes...not a gamble to expect to turn out like this.

[MrDollarBills]

Yeah but see the crying over picks is the revisionist history of it all. This happens all the time. When trades like these are made the attitude is wow you stole so and so. All you gave up were picks or pick swaps? And at the time you are a playoff team and you look at the roster and see the other team and you think...no way they are better than us in 2 years to do the pick swap. Or...hey we will be a 50+ win team with this roster so no worries they will be crap picks.

I have to take you to task here.... this board was livid AT THE TIME when the wallace deal happened. a few supported it but most were up in arms we gave them our own first rounder in a loaded draft. This board was upset when VC4P pointed out there was a pick swap in the JJ trade. most still liked the deal but alot agreed it was an overpay.

there was no revisionist history on those, we were vocal back then about those picks and pick swaps.

I laugh at how all of sudden Boston KILLED us in this trade because of how it turned out. For anyone who watched the NBA draft that day it was especially entertaining to watch Bill Simmons piss and moan all night about how terrible that trade was for Boston and how shocked he was that Ainge got absolutely nothing in that deal. Just goes to show you...never trust comedic homer fan boy media personalities who gain some popularity and suddenly people think they have a clue what they are talking about. We got what we needed at time and traded up and they got what they needed for the future. Trade of directions as it should be. Perfectly justified on both sides.

This i agree 100%. the boston trade was still an excellent deal and one id do again 100 times over. It was maximizing our situation and the picks we gave up really arent that great and so far have produced james young. We got to the second round of the playoffs, the best we have done in nearly a decade since kidd and carter were here because of that trade. with lopez going down had we not had pierce and KG we dont make the playoffs.

See I dont think the Wallace deal is the same thing. That was a deal made at the deadline for a draft only 4 months later. We KNEW the price. in full. We knew we were sitting on the 4th worst record and he just gave up an unprotected pick with what? 25 games left to play and injuries all over the place?

So lets just focus on the Hawks trade. I do not recall the pick swap being his issue the the day of the JJ trade. I recall that being an issue later. Day of I recall it as he didnt like giving up the known pick for a player they were dumping. He never likes to give up picks not ever. Even though most late first are busts he LOVES HIM some unknown upside!

Anyway, long time ago we would have to find the thread and look at the first reaction.

As for the pick swap I didnt say that I cant see how it wasnt an overpay. What I said was...no one ever expected to have to pay it!

The pick swap was not an issue the day of the trade because the Nets front office withheld that information when the deal was disclosed, a fan online unearthed those details after the fact, Net fans across the Net were livid about this.

[jeff1624]

But did we get shafted today? If you believe Wojo...Nets were all in on that trade. OKC made a different move.


And had we made that trade...I still say roster would not have improved for this season plus...Heat and Celtics still made bigger moves.

A report came out that the Nets were angry with OKC for leaving them with no time to explore other trades. That in itself is laughable. You're a GM of a profession basketball team... how do you sit banking on one trade without a contingency plan? It reminds me of 2012 with Dwight. Dwight picked up his option and King made the Wallace trade because he panicked and had no backup plan.

Well then this would be the opposite right? he didnt panic and compound the issue by making a bad trade.

(Although granted, we dont have much to trade these days....lol)

That's what annoys me though. King never has a backup option and is complaining because he wasn't allowed to make a panic trade. It's obvious that he never called around to gauge lopez's value around the league. He put all of his eggs in the Reggie jackson basket and that's terrible and when that falls apart he admits that he didn't due any diligence around the league.

I compared this deal with the Wallace one because if Presti had made the detroit trade 30 minutes earlier then I can assure you that King was gonna make a Brook Lopez or Jeremy Lin trade or something stupid like that.

I really want this man gone. And it astounds me that despite getting torched by the media every chance they get they stick with king.

Now there's a report that King backed out of a potential Love trade. I can't, man... I just can't anymore.

[enetric]

I have to take you to task here.... this board was livid AT THE TIME when the wallace deal happened. a few supported it but most were up in arms we gave them our own first rounder in a loaded draft. This board was upset when VC4P pointed out there was a pick swap in the JJ trade. most still liked the deal but alot agreed it was an overpay.

there was no revisionist history on those, we were vocal back then about those picks and pick swaps.



This i agree 100%. the boston trade was still an excellent deal and one id do again 100 times over. It was maximizing our situation and the picks we gave up really arent that great and so far have produced james young. We got to the second round of the playoffs, the best we have done in nearly a decade since kidd and carter were here because of that trade. with lopez going down had we not had pierce and KG we dont make the playoffs.

See I dont think the Wallace deal is the same thing. That was a deal made at the deadline for a draft only 4 months later. We KNEW the price. in full. We knew we were sitting on the 4th worst record and he just gave up an unprotected pick with what? 25 games left to play and injuries all over the place?

So lets just focus on the Hawks trade. I do not recall the pick swap being his issue the the day of the JJ trade. I recall that being an issue later. Day of I recall it as he didnt like giving up the known pick for a player they were dumping. He never likes to give up picks not ever. Even though most late first are busts he LOVES HIM some unknown upside!

Anyway, long time ago we would have to find the thread and look at the first reaction.

As for the pick swap I didnt say that I cant see how it wasnt an overpay. What I said was...no one ever expected to have to pay it!

The pick swap was not an issue the day of the trade because the Nets front office withheld that information when the deal was disclosed, a fan online unearthed those details after the fact, Net fans across the Net were livid about this.

You are right. So you see Prok...it wasnt an issue at the time.

[Prokorov]

I am not going to do the advanced metrics thing with you. That only goes so far with me. And in reverse there is only so much I can say pro Lopez before your hair would literally burst into flames!

I don't need you to and it wasnt ym intent to argue over advanced stats. i only pointed it out to illustrate this isnt a 20/10 guys v.s a 5/5 guy. Maybe it was just a bit of a hyperbole on your part, but at least statistically from a birds eye view one guys insnt a "massive masssive massive upgrade" over the other.

But I will say this. I do think the all star version of Lopez was better...much better than you were giving him credit for in years past. I dont have a high opinion of Hollins. I do think that he has a lot to do with what is going on this season.

As for saying 4 coaches 3 rosters...you are glazing over the times he was playing well and injury seasons, lumping it all in there.

He probably was better then I was giving hm credit for, but i dont think it was by much. I dont think he is a guy you put on a mediocure team that automatically makes him a good team. I dont think he has that kind of impact. I say that mostly because he isnt a 2 way player, and because scoring bigs arent really what wins today. He isnt someone like shaq or dwight where you fear it anytime he touches it within 5 feet because its a dunk. or where your backside wings need to always be sneaking in incase of a lab. or your wings impededing him on the roll because if he catches it your toast. in that regard, he isnt opening up that wing/corner 3 for your offense, and he isnt generating doubles/attention when he DOESNT have the ball(which is what seperates scoring bigs from dominant bigs).

either way, we can argue that forever. as far as the coaches, i guess you can throw away last year due to small sample. and just go on this year vs the first year in brooklyn. i guess you i can see you pointing to coaching if you were high on his year in brooklyn 2 years ago. we both know i am not, but that is debateable.

I am by no means saying he is great. But I think from day one so much has been ignored as to what his role might have looked like had Dwill been who he was supposed to be. That's important. An extreme example...I am much more impressed with what LMA is with Damian Lillard than what he was exaggerated to be before him. I hope you know what I mean.

Having said all of that...I do not have a crystal ball. I do not know if the best of Lopez is behind him or if Kanter will get better.

But...from what I have observed I have been far more impressed with the best of 26 year old Lopez vs. the best of 23 year old Kanter. And given a fresh start for both...if I were drafting them right now....yes....I like Lopez much more.

Yea, like i had assumed earlier, it seems like you think that:

a) lopez is probably capable of getting back to his numbers from his allstar season
b) that form is good enough to get us back into the playoffs

and what im not sure on

c) you think lopez should be extended and kept around

for me a is irrelevant because i dont think b is true

but more importantly is C. if you think C is true, then yeah it would make alot of sense why these other deals whose purpose is make the playoffs now and let them expire after next season dont make sense. im operating under the assumption there is no way we extend lopez and if he isnt moved he is let to expire and we use that cap space in free agency in '16.

but can you see it from my view? if you dont think C is true, and dont think B is true... then it makes a TON of sense to move lopez for a Gaurd/Wing upgrade who is on a deal as long or shorter then lopez to see if that is enough to salvage playoffs this year.

basically, what is your view ondo you think lopez should be kept long term?

[enetric]

A report came out that the Nets were angry with OKC for leaving them with no time to explore other trades. That in itself is laughable. You're a GM of a profession basketball team... how do you sit banking on one trade without a contingency plan? It reminds me of 2012 with Dwight. Dwight picked up his option and King made the Wallace trade because he panicked and had no backup plan.

Well then this would be the opposite right? he didnt panic and compound the issue by making a bad trade.

(Although granted, we dont have much to trade these days....lol)

That's what annoys me though. King never has a backup option and is complaining because he wasn't allowed to make a panic trade. It's obvious that he never called around to gauge lopez's value around the league. He put all of his eggs in the Reggie jackson basket and that's terrible and when that falls apart he admits that he didn't due any diligence around the league.

I compared this deal with the Wallace one because if Presti had made the detroit trade 30 minutes earlier then I can assure you that King was gonna make a Brook Lopez or Jeremy Lin trade or something stupid like that.

I really want this man gone. And it astounds me that despite getting torched by the media every chance they get they stick with king.

Now there's a report that King backed out of a potential Love trade. I can't, man... I just can't anymore.

Jeff...
I read that 3 times and I think I just had a stroke. Lol.

You are mad he never has a back up plan...but he is complaining he didnt get to execute his back up plan?

You said its obvious he didnt call around yet...I dont see how that is obvious. And you have a link where he admits to not calling around? That would be a game changer if you have a quote that he says something like, "I was too busy catching up on my DVR shows so nope didnt call around. Figured I would get an offer."

And then you say he not only didnt make calls and that he admits to it but if he had an extra 30 minutes warning he would have executed the back up plan you just said he didnt have?!

And if he had executed the plan you are mad he didnt have...that it would have been a really stupid one?

So if that's the case...then why be mad he didnt do one??!!!!