Lopez for Reggie Jackson falls apart; Nets acquire Thad Young for KG (UPDATE: Page 58)

[enetric]

I think it could happen actually. Things and circumstances change.... I wouldn't rule it out that Deron looks like he did when he won player of the week at the start of the season, and Brook looks better with a new front court mate. It could happen.... I know I'm reach but just trying to be optimistic here.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

Well, we are about due for a coaching change its been almost a year. That could spark these guys up. They have to feel disrespected by Hollins.

Hollins' problem is that he's a bit too honest, but all of his criticisms of these guys are spot on.

I'm sorry, i refuse to sit and make excuses for these guys. They play like **** and they dog it, and Deron and Brook especially are the biggest culprits.

I love the fact that Hollins doesn't coddle these guys. Williams and Lopez are responsible for being at the core of the culture of softness and lackadaisical play that has plagued this team over the last several seasons.

Th problem is that he is a straight up A hole. its more than speaking his mind.

After you rip these guys you still have a job to do. Its still on you to figure out how to maximize your results. And basically same team...much worse results on his watch.

There is a saying I use in business. They may not be your people for tomorrow buy they are your people for today.

You still have to teach motivate and set them up for success. Getting in a guys face is one thing. Treating him like a dog as your record gets worse and worse and you give minutes to lesser players for "effort"doesnt exactly support his management style as winning.

His problem isnt that he's too honest. His problem is that it appears he has lost his team and far too many games.

Sorry man. THis guy belongs in college not the NBA. He has the wrong disposition for this league.

[enetric]

In other words...get the All star SG for nothing? Or do you mean...had the picks NOT been swapped as a result of record? Because...

At the time the Hawks were a perennial 7/8 team who was dumping JJ for 4 expiring guys 3 of which left the NBA and the dumped Josh Smith. We were the team that supposedly had top 10 NBA superstar Deron Williams, a 23 year old all star center and were adding 6 time all star Joe Johnson to a team owned by a guy who was prepared to spend even more to get a title.

No one expected those picks to ever be swapped. The thought was, they were rebuilding for the next few years and we would be a playoff team for the next few.

That a was a very reasonable gamble that unfortunately backfired. But it wasnt a high price to pay at the time. That's why its a mistake to attach actual pick value years after the fact to a trade. If it had gone the other way...and we had the better record we would have said...we stole him.

JJ was universally regarded as one of, if not the worst contract in the NBA. I never heard anyone else rumored trading for him and the fact that we can't get anything for him now, despite his contract being shorter is telling. The pick swaps seemed unnecessary and weren't even mentioned originally as though King was trying to hide the fact he yet again overpaid. They got major financial relief and a lotto protected first as well as a 2nd IIRC. There was no need to swap picks as you never know what the future holds.

Just to add. Normally bad contracts like Joe get traded for equally bad contracts w/ less time. It'll be 4 years of awful money being traded for 2-3 years of awful money. That's normally considered market-value return for a terrible contract. Normally to completely unload a contract the deal would be something like BAD CONTRACT + future 1st for immediate CAP RELIEF.

We gave them IMMEDIATE salary cap relief. Plus we sent out a bunch of picks without receiving any picks in return. All because BK wanted to do Ferry a favor and assumed we'd be better than Atlanta for the next 6 years. Completely unnecessary.

Not exactly true. Things have started to change a bit as contracts have gotten shorter. But trading an expiring for long term was the way of these trades as a first option. You got expirings and either picks or a prospect. Also...in the last couple of years teams are putting more value on picks with repeater tax, etc. Up until the last couple of years it wasnt uncommon to throw a couple of picks around or to be able to simply buy them on draft day. We see less and less of that under the current structure.

[enetric]

I actually don't blame OKC for what they did. A far less price to pay for two serviceable pieces instead of giving us everything for Brook, whose foot will probably break next week.

Did they really pay a far less price? Reggie Jackson was the key piece and they dealt him. They chose the more financially sound move. Sure...you can argue Brook has more downside due the medical history than Kanter but he also has much much much more upside. Have you seen Kanter play? Meh!

I dont blame them however...They are not upside gamblers if they have to put their money on the line. Cap drives all for that team would be the best team in the NBA right now With James Harden still on the roster. Its a shame that organization is small market and runs on small thinking.

Far less for Kanter?

Didn't they pay more for him?

Our deal was supposedly and essentially:

Perkins, Jackson, PJ3
for
Brook (and probably Jordan or Brown)

Instead they did:

Perkins, Jackson, Rights to Pleiss, Jarrett and a #1
for
Singler - a scrub they didn't need
Augustin - an ok back up PG
Novak - a bad player and contract
Kanter

They gave up more IMO.

Read the article someone posted a few pages back I think it summed it up well. They filled in more that they wouldnt have been able to this off season and have more control now.

I would prefer Lopez. But you know how this will all play out? Exactly like the rest of the deals we have discussed. With revisionist history.


If a couple of seasons from now one of Lopez, Reggie or Kanter stands out above the other two and is playing great...that is all anyone will point to. Not the other role players. Unless of course the role guy proves you wrong or the pick explodes.

Because sadly thats what fans love to do.

So it will be...WOW we stole Kanter, or man you got screwed on Reggie or I cant believe you didnt scoop up all star center Brook Lopez when his stock was so low.

That's how it will play out if one guy ends up all that.

[Trader_Joe]

Did they really pay a far less price? Reggie Jackson was the key piece and they dealt him. They chose the more financially sound move. Sure...you can argue Brook has more downside due the medical history than Kanter but he also has much much much more upside. Have you seen Kanter play? Meh!

I dont blame them however...They are not upside gamblers if they have to put their money on the line. Cap drives all for that team would be the best team in the NBA right now With James Harden still on the roster. Its a shame that organization is small market and runs on small thinking.

Far less for Kanter?

Didn't they pay more for him?

Our deal was supposedly and essentially:

Perkins, Jackson, PJ3
for
Brook (and probably Jordan or Brown)

Instead they did:

Perkins, Jackson, Rights to Pleiss, Jarrett and a #1
for
Singler - a scrub they didn't need
Augustin - an ok back up PG
Novak - a bad player and contract
Kanter

They gave up more IMO.

Read the article someone posted a few pages back I think it summed it up well. They filled in more that they wouldnt have been able to this off season and have more control now.

I would prefer Lopez. But you know how this will all play out? Exactly like the rest of the deals we have discussed. With revisionist history.


If a couple of seasons from now one of Lopez, Reggie or Kanter stands out above the other two and is playing great...that is all anyone will point to. Not the other role players. Unless of course the role guy proves you wrong or the pick explodes.

Because sadly thats what fans love to do.

So it will be...WOW we stole Kanter, or man you got screwed on Reggie or I cant believe you didnt scoop up all star center Brook Lopez when his stock was so low.

That's how it will play out if one guy ends up all that.

Wouldn't have been able to do what?
And if it's the article I'm think of, it also though Jack was going to OKC which wasn't the case.

[spearsy23]

Here's the thing. I think Lopez is massively better. For all the bad things people can say at times about Lopez...my lord wait to you get a good look at Kanter! I would absolutely rather have the upside of a 26 year guy who has already been an all star in this league than what I have seen from Kanter.

Lopez scores slightly better, rebounds significantly worse, is a time bomb in terms of injuries and neither of them play defense. Tell me how he is massively better...

And Augustin is a solid serviceable back up PG. If you were poised to make a good playoff run sure I can see the big whoop about that. But you arent. So filling that role is something you could have done in the off season. There is always a serviceable backup PG to be had.

...do you know what team you're talking about? We've been to the second round and beyond for the past 5 years.

You made a financially driven penny pinching move as your franchise always does. You aren't an upside team. You think small and its reason why your franchise wont get over the hump. If Durant is smart he knew the reality the second Harden wasnt kept over a few mil.

You know we offered Reggie 12 million per year? Not spending 100 million dollars on marginal players isn't 'penny pinching,' it's more 'not having a mental midget steering the ship.'

[enetric]

Here's the thing. I think Lopez is massively better. For all the bad things people can say at times about Lopez...my lord wait to you get a good look at Kanter! I would absolutely rather have the upside of a 26 year guy who has already been an all star in this league than what I have seen from Kanter.

Lopez scores slightly better, rebounds significantly worse, is a time bomb in terms of injuries and neither of them play defense. Tell me how he is massively better...

And Augustin is a solid serviceable back up PG. If you were poised to make a good playoff run sure I can see the big whoop about that. But you arent. So filling that role is something you could have done in the off season. There is always a serviceable backup PG to be had.

...do you know what team you're talking about? We've been to the second round and beyond for the past 5 years.

You made a financially driven penny pinching move as your franchise always does. You aren't an upside team. You think small and its reason why your franchise wont get over the hump. If Durant is smart he knew the reality the second Harden wasnt kept over a few mil.

You know we offered Reggie 12 million per year? Not spending 100 million dollars on marginal players isn't 'penny pinching,' it's more 'not having a mental midget steering the ship.'

You love Kanter? Enjoy him. He isnt what you you think he is.

I have no problems with not overpaying Reggie. You opted to fil in several things here rather than get the best player available and take the risk. But mypenny pinching comment was in reference to an inexcuseable move to let Harden go. its why you are the eternal brisdesmaid of the NBA and NOT a dynasty.

But go ahead and defend why it was OK to do what you did with Harden. I have your MO already. You read like short novel with really BIG FONT.


Fast, cheap and predictable.

[Trader_Joe]

Here's the thing. I think Lopez is massively better. For all the bad things people can say at times about Lopez...my lord wait to you get a good look at Kanter! I would absolutely rather have the upside of a 26 year guy who has already been an all star in this league than what I have seen from Kanter.

Lopez scores slightly better, rebounds significantly worse, is a time bomb in terms of injuries and neither of them play defense. Tell me how he is massively better...

And Augustin is a solid serviceable back up PG. If you were poised to make a good playoff run sure I can see the big whoop about that. But you arent. So filling that role is something you could have done in the off season. There is always a serviceable backup PG to be had.

...do you know what team you're talking about? We've been to the second round and beyond for the past 5 years.

You made a financially driven penny pinching move as your franchise always does. You aren't an upside team. You think small and its reason why your franchise wont get over the hump. If Durant is smart he knew the reality the second Harden wasnt kept over a few mil.

You know we offered Reggie 12 million per year? Not spending 100 million dollars on marginal players isn't 'penny pinching,' it's more 'not having a mental midget steering the ship.'

I don't think Lopez would have been the right fit for the team either but I just want to point out he's a much better defender by almost every metric

-Lopez blocks shots, Kanter doesn'tt (1.7 vs. 0.3)
-Kanter allows opponents to shoot 58% at the rim, Lopez 50% which is a large difference. In fact Kanter allows the highest percentage of any big man playing over 25 mpg, only guards are ahead of him. Lopez is 1.5 percentage points within the likes of Horford, Drummond, Gortat, Davis, Gasol, Jordan Chandler. Kanter is on par with Kyle Korver
-Lopez has a better defensive rating by about 3 points.
-Lopez is at least 7'1" in shoes with a 9'5" reach, Kanter a 9'1.5 reach. (Lopez has clearly grown since he was measured at 19 and pretty much on par with Hibbert size wise as even their color commentator mentioned on air 2 years back)

Also, Lopez has at least one year of PO experience where he was
-top 5 in PER
-the #1 scoring big man for the PO, PF or C
-#1 in blocks tied with Ibaka
-Put up 22.4 points / 7.4 rebounds / 3 blocks / 1.4 assists / 1 steal / 6.3 FTA per game against the vaunted Chicago D (Noah, Gibson and of course Thibs)

Kanter is the better rebounder, younger, healthier and the safer choice as a restricted FA, but I think Lopez would have offered more upside (and risk as he wouldn't commit to opting in to his final year).

[Trader_Joe]

Also Kanter has shown little improvement if you look at this per 36 numbers since a rookie. They are all almost exactly the same other than blocks which are way down.
He is one year younger than when Lopez was an AS with a top 5 PER.

Granted some teams will think there is lots of potential left and offer him a Pekovic type deal or max. NY or LAL most likely and see if OKC blinks. NO will also need a C with Asik a FA and Charlotte may as well. According to a Utah fan on the trade board starting and PT is a major priority of his, so that's another issue OKC has to iron out with Adams there and Kanter a defensive liability. Can they afford him and offer him a big enough role?

[jeff1624]

Well then this would be the opposite right? he didnt panic and compound the issue by making a bad trade.

(Although granted, we dont have much to trade these days....lol)

That's what annoys me though. King never has a backup option and is complaining because he wasn't allowed to make a panic trade. It's obvious that he never called around to gauge lopez's value around the league. He put all of his eggs in the Reggie jackson basket and that's terrible and when that falls apart he admits that he didn't due any diligence around the league.

I compared this deal with the Wallace one because if Presti had made the detroit trade 30 minutes earlier then I can assure you that King was gonna make a Brook Lopez or Jeremy Lin trade or something stupid like that.

I really want this man gone. And it astounds me that despite getting torched by the media every chance they get they stick with king.

Now there's a report that King backed out of a potential Love trade. I can't, man... I just can't anymore.

Jeff...
I read that 3 times and I think I just had a stroke. Lol.

You are mad he never has a back up plan...but he is complaining he didnt get to execute his back up plan?

You said its obvious he didnt call around yet...I dont see how that is obvious. And you have a link where he admits to not calling around? That would be a game changer if you have a quote that he says something like, "I was too busy catching up on my DVR shows so nope didnt call around. Figured I would get an offer."

And then you say he not only didnt make calls and that he admits to it but if he had an extra 30 minutes warning he would have executed the back up plan you just said he didnt have?!

And if he had executed the plan you are mad he didnt have...that it would have been a really stupid one?

So if that's the case...then why be mad he didnt do one??!!!!

You're not understanding me. I'm not mad he didn't make a move after the reggie jackson deal fell apart. That's fine, it is what it is. I value Lopez a lot and I don't just want to give him away. I'm annoyed that he openly admitted that he wanted to explore other moves but was apparently blindsided when OKC took another deal. How do you put all your eggs in one basket like that? His quote of being blindsided is an admission that he was only talking to OKC. Which is why I mentioned the wallace trade. I'm 100% sure a wallace like trade would happen again and its infuriating that he hasn't learned from past mistakes. If this was the only deal he liked and it didn't happen that's fine... but he as always gets caught with his pants down and doesn't plan a move ahead.

This is normally something that people shrug off, but Billy King has embarrassed himself way too many times for this to be forgotten so easily. I fully expected Brook to be traded for a sh*tty player as soon as reggie jackson went to Detroit. I was relieved when it didn't happen only to read that it didn't because Billy ran out of time.

[NyCeEvO]

The problem with people saying negative comments are regarding Billy King are revisionist history is that there have always been a contingent of fans on RealGM who disagreed with what Billy King has done.

The group has now become larger as more people have become convinced that he indeed has been a bad GM. Don't loop all of the posters all together.

Many of the guys who criticized Billy from the start are no longer posting or at least actively posting (i.e. JG, VC4P, NIN).

Go back and check the thread for when we traded for D-Will. The board was totally elated. I wrote that while I thought it was a good trade for the most part I still thought he overpaid.

Next moves? Gerald Wallace trade and Gerald Wallace signing. That trade was the most idiotic trade in recent memory and the contract given to him was terrible. That's when criticism of King was at fever pitch.

We acquired JJ and for the most part people were ok with it...until we found out 6 months later that there were unnecessary pick swaps for the most overpaid contract in the league at the time. We just recently discussed this but when JG and VC4P found this out, King was ripped to shreds again by them and NIN followed suit. Some on here didn't think the pick swaps would amount to much but there was definitely a deep division over whether it was a good trade with pick swaps included. (Btw, in that very thread VC4P clearly stated that his biggest concern was injuries and us gifting the Hawks a lotto pick. And now look at this season.)

We sign Kidd has head coach. Most didn't like it because they thought it was a marketing move but we all said we have to get behind it. The season started off terribly and some people started blaming Billy. At the time I said, I didn't blame Billy for our poor play and that it was on the players. Should King have been fired for all of the stuff he did before? Absolutely. Should he have been fired solely because of the 10-21 start? No. Then we make the biggest in-season turnaround when Lopez goes down and actually make it to the 2nd round.

At the start of this offseason, things were looking ok until the Kidd fiasco which led to Livingston leaving and Blatche not being re-signed. Ownership decides to the tighten the wallet and not re-sign Pierce even though we all presumed that we didn't trade for 1 season of Pierce when we acquired him. KG contemplates retirement and we go out looking for a new coach.

At the start of the season, we had predictions. Some had us being as high as the 5th seed while others saw us missing the playoffs. I said that I was scared because with Lopez returning from missing most of the season and D-Will getting offseason ankle surgery, one more injury to those guys could easily derail the season and cause us to gift the Hawks a high lotto pick. I gave us a range of being as high as the 5th seed if all went well and as low as missing the playoffs due to injuries.

At the present moment, we've been hit with mild injuries and adjustment to a new coaching system. Those injuries that some were concerned about have definitely hurt us. The players have clearly underperformed. I don't think there's a single person on this board who blames Billy but not the players. The loudest critics of BK are also the biggest critics of the players. Everyone is getting their fair share of blame.

These last 3 years would've been more successful if we had been healthy but how much more successful? However, what we do know for sure is that Billy King overpaid in most of his deals from 2010-2012 and some of us were worried that they would come back to bite us. Having assets would help us move players and change our current predicament. Billy King is not the reason we're playing poorly but he is the reason why we can't really our situation since we have no assets to entice teams with.

[spearsy23]

I don't think Lopez would have been the right fit for the team either but I just want to point out he's a much better defender by almost every metric

-Lopez blocks shots, Kanter doesn'tt (1.7 vs. 0.3)
-Kanter allows opponents to shoot 58% at the rim, Lopez 50% which is a large difference. In fact Kanter allows the highest percentage of any big man playing over 25 mpg, only guards are ahead of him. Lopez is 1.5 percentage points within the likes of Horford, Drummond, Gortat, Davis, Gasol, Jordan Chandler. Kanter is on par with Kyle Korver
-Lopez has a better defensive rating by about 3 points.
-Lopez is at least 7'1" in shoes with a 9'5" reach, Kanter a 9'1.5 reach. (Lopez has clearly grown since he was measured at 19 and pretty much on par with Hibbert size wise as even their color commentator mentioned on air 2 years back)

This is all completely fair, but at the end of the day we're talking about two players who are going to hurt your team defense. Neither is good as a team defender, both teams allow significantly more points with them in the game. But at the end of the day, Brooklyn has been worse on both ends when Brook was in the game, while Kanter significantly helped Utah's offense.Basically Kanter fits better, and they both suck on defense, even if Brook sucks less.

Also, Lopez has at least one year of PO experience where he was
-top 5 in PER
-the #1 scoring big man for the PO, PF or C
-#1 in blocks tied with Ibaka
-Put up 22.4 points / 7.4 rebounds / 3 blocks / 1.4 assists / 1 steal / 6.3 FTA per game against the vaunted Chicago D (Noah, Gibson and of course Thibs)

Sure, but if he was that guy today he wouldn't be sharing time with Plumlee. And he wouldn't be traded for Reggie Jackson.

Kanter is the better rebounder, younger, healthier and the safer choice as a restricted FA, but I think Lopez would have offered more upside (and risk as he wouldn't commit to opting in to his final year).

by more upside do you mean 'at their very bests'? If so, I'd agree. But we've most likely seen Brook's very best, and as great as it is, it's unlikely he is ever that guy again for a significant amount of time. From this point forward I'd say Kanter is likely to reach higher levels. It's also important to note, Brook has been assisted on 61.5% of his career field goals and Kanter on 53%. Who knows what will happen if he gets 10% more easy attempts?

[Trader_Joe]

I don't think Lopez would have been the right fit for the team either but I just want to point out he's a much better defender by almost every metric

-Lopez blocks shots, Kanter doesn'tt (1.7 vs. 0.3)
-Kanter allows opponents to shoot 58% at the rim, Lopez 50% which is a large difference. In fact Kanter allows the highest percentage of any big man playing over 25 mpg, only guards are ahead of him. Lopez is 1.5 percentage points within the likes of Horford, Drummond, Gortat, Davis, Gasol, Jordan Chandler. Kanter is on par with Kyle Korver
-Lopez has a better defensive rating by about 3 points.
-Lopez is at least 7'1" in shoes with a 9'5" reach, Kanter a 9'1.5 reach. (Lopez has clearly grown since he was measured at 19 and pretty much on par with Hibbert size wise as even their color commentator mentioned on air 2 years back)

This is all completely fair, but at the end of the day we're talking about two players who are going to hurt your team defense. Neither is good as a team defender, both teams allow significantly more points with them in the game. But at the end of the day, Brooklyn has been worse on both ends when Brook was in the game, while Kanter significantly helped Utah's offense.Basically Kanter fits better, and they both suck on defense, even if Brook sucks less.

Also, Lopez has at least one year of PO experience where he was
-top 5 in PER
-the #1 scoring big man for the PO, PF or C
-#1 in blocks tied with Ibaka
-Put up 22.4 points / 7.4 rebounds / 3 blocks / 1.4 assists / 1 steal / 6.3 FTA per game against the vaunted Chicago D (Noah, Gibson and of course Thibs)

Sure, but if he was that guy today he wouldn't be sharing time with Plumlee. And he wouldn't be traded for Reggie Jackson.

Kanter is the better rebounder, younger, healthier and the safer choice as a restricted FA, but I think Lopez would have offered more upside (and risk as he wouldn't commit to opting in to his final year).

by more upside do you mean 'at their very bests'? If so, I'd agree. But we've most likely seen Brook's very best, and as great as it is, it's unlikely he is ever that guy again for a significant amount of time. From this point forward I'd say Kanter is likely to reach higher levels. It's also important to note, Brook has been assisted on 61.5% of his career field goals and Kanter on 53%. Who knows what will happen if he gets 10% more easy attempts?

A. Brook sucks much less on D..not really close especially when he's one of the best shot blockers and his rim protection on par with the names I listed as opposed to Kyle Korver as a comparison. He's also much longer and alters many more shots with his length.

B. At age 26 you think we've seen the best of a player who had to relearn how to walk and never relied on athleticism? (Keeping in mind those are numbers from his first ever POs against one of the best defensive teams in the league)
Ikgauskas had the same foot reconstruction and was an AS twice afterwards, played 75+ games the following 5 years and 70+ the remainder of his career. Lopez is already rebounding better than he did the last two years, playing comparable D and his per 36 numbers near his averages. He's almost back to the player he was despite missing a year, having to learn how to walk again and learn a new system from a new coach. It's scary how much better he should be if not for 7 coaches, the injuries and all the roster turn over around him. And remember he was much better than Kanter at his age.

Its also funny how we always hear bigs take longer to develop yet Lopez didn't and Kanter was touted for being fairly polished entering the NBA. Apparently he was as he hasn't imrovoed.

C. Kanter has shown little imorovement since his rookie year having nearly identical stats per 36 and regressed with shot blocking.

D. Sharing time with Plumlee?
They play together often since they have no other bigs and has been outplaying Plumlee and getting more minutes since he came back from tweaking his back.

D. Your using sample sizes that don't make sense. The guy is coming off an major injury and joining a dysfunctional team and relegated to playing with two of the worst starting PGs in the game. He was best with healthy Deron or Devin Harris (who played with Kanter) who wasn't much of passer. In full sample sizes (ie where he played the majority of the season and not a 17 game sample from last year or this year where he's coming off a a year off and very rare operation) the team has always been much better in games he plays vs. doesn't as well as whens he's on the court vs. off.

Simply put Lopez is a significantly better defender, better on O and better overall. Kanter is among the worst defensive bigs in the league but will want a max and starting job. OKC made the safer choice with the younger, healthier and restricted player and the right one but taking on Lopez had both greater risk and reward.

Overall, my points are simply the following..
OKC made the right trade
They paid slightly more (Pleiss + #1 which), but got a C that makes more sense (younger, healthier, restricted), some wing depth and a back up PG... but if they traded for Lopez, I think they would have a higher ceiling, but a lower floor as well. If Lopez plays the way he's capable of, he's IMO a markedly better overall player..a good deal on D and a significant amount on O. But, because he could opt out after this season and because he has foot concerns, OKC took the safer smarter route on a player who's destiny they control.

At the same time, I'm glad they did make the trade.
I wanted no part of Reggie Jackson.
I would have taken Perkins and some combo of Lamb/PJ/Picks over him.
There was no market for D.Will or possibly Jack as other teams filled their PG needs other way. It would have been nightmarish paying $40m next year to a PG trio of D.Will/Jack/Jackson when none of them are top 20 PGs. Jackson cannot shoot (especially from 3), isn't a distributor and has been called out by his teammates for selfish play. He also would have kept us well into the tax and limited 2016 options.

[NyCeEvO]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SBondyNYDN/status/568549319470501889[/tweet]

[NyCeEvO]

We can sit here and argue about Lopez impact.

But sit back and think for a moment...King reportedly was going to hand the keys of the franchise to Reggie Jackson who turned down 4yr/48mil from the Thunder in search of a bigger deal and a starting role.

When I heard the reporters saying King told him that's the plan, I posted that he's bluffing because I thought there was no way a team would make Reggie Jackson it's cornerstone.

But what if that was true? King would've only compounded his previous errors unless he found a way to S&T him this offseason. The best part of the deal for me was PJ on a rookie contract followed by the savings we would have from Perk's expiring contract. We'd have 30 games to see if PJ is as good as I think he can be while getting close to or below LT if Reggie walks and Perk expires.

There are so many question marks concerning Reggie that I refuse to believe we seriously considered giving him a contract larger than 4yr/48mil.

I saw this deal as a way to get a prospect for free. Having Reggie or Brook isn't going to make this team much better or much worse this season and both could no longer be Nets after the end of the season. If we had done the trade we would've at least had another prospect who will definitely be here next year on a rookie deal.

[MrDollarBills]

Well, we are about due for a coaching change its been almost a year. That could spark these guys up. They have to feel disrespected by Hollins.

Hollins' problem is that he's a bit too honest, but all of his criticisms of these guys are spot on.

I'm sorry, i refuse to sit and make excuses for these guys. They play like **** and they dog it, and Deron and Brook especially are the biggest culprits.

I love the fact that Hollins doesn't coddle these guys. Williams and Lopez are responsible for being at the core of the culture of softness and lackadaisical play that has plagued this team over the last several seasons.

Th problem is that he is a straight up A hole. its more than speaking his mind.

After you rip these guys you still have a job to do. Its still on you to figure out how to maximize your results. And basically same team...much worse results on his watch.

There is a saying I use in business. They may not be your people for tomorrow buy they are your people for today.

You still have to teach motivate and set them up for success. Getting in a guys face is one thing. Treating him like a dog as your record gets worse and worse and you give minutes to lesser players for "effort"doesnt exactly support his management style as winning.

His problem isnt that he's too honest. His problem is that it appears he has lost his team and far too many games.

Sorry man. THis guy belongs in college not the NBA. He has the wrong disposition for this league.

That's your opinion and that's fine, but his past success with players that weren't dogs like Lopez and Williams says that the problem is the fact that this core is garbage. You're enabling the players to continue with the same lethargic, **** play that we've seen from these clowns and blaming Hollins for being honest about them instead of holding them accountable.

Is it Hollins' fault that D-Will plays like ****? That Lopez will go out and give an abysmal effort? Why do you have an issue with guys who put forth better effort each night getting minutes?

And this is not the same team as last year. Last year we had Pierce, Livingston, Blatche, Thornton etc. The team is significantly worse and cannot hit outside shots.

Honestly, his past track record with Memphis, who had competitive players unlike Lopez and Williams says that your opinion about his management style is off base. Guys like Gasol, Randolph, Conley, Allen etc come to play each night. Lopez and Williams don't. Big difference.

[MrDollarBills]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SBondyNYDN/status/568549319470501889[/tweet]

Yeah, he goes out and plays hard after being put on the block again, but will then come out next game and put forth a piss poor effort.

[Trader_Joe]

We can sit here and argue about Lopez impact.

But sit back and think for a moment...King reportedly was going to hand the keys of the franchise to Reggie Jackson who turned down 4yr/48mil from the Thunder in search of a bigger deal and a starting role.

When I heard the reporters saying King told him that's the plan, I posted that he's bluffing because I thought there was no way a team would make Reggie Jackson it's cornerstone.

But what if that was true? King would've only compounded his previous errors unless he found a way to S&T him this offseason. The best part of the deal for me was PJ on a rookie contract followed by the savings we would have from Perk's expiring contract. We'd have 30 games to see if PJ is as good as I think he can be while getting close to or below LT if Reggie walks and Perk expires.

There are so many question marks concerning Reggie that I refuse to believe we seriously considered giving him a contract larger than 4yr/48mil.

I saw this deal as a way to get a prospect for free. Having Reggie or Brook isn't going to make this team much better or much worse this season and both could no longer be Nets after the end of the season. If we had done the trade we would've at least had another prospect who will definitely be here next year on a rookie deal.

I never understood the Reggie love and then that rumored deal.

Overall, when people try to grade our deadline there are a couple ways to look at.
What actually happened
What the fan thinks should have happened
What would have happened if Billy had his way

Personally, I still think Billy should get graded harshly for what he wanted to happen.

The deal was in OKC's court all afternoon. Say they finally made that deal with us at the last minute. we probably don't have time to move Jack or JJ. Jack was rumored to Detroit in the afternoon, but they were all in on Jackson, and if they didn't get him, who knows if they makes a move with BK who just stole Reggie from them? They were the other supposed suitor for Johnson, but probably don't go for him either with no time left on the clock. IMO, it make no sense to move Lopez, unless JJ was on the way out as well. Thad was already had, and adding Jackson keeps our payroll up. If the point was to blow up the team and get flexibility a year earlier both Lopez and JJ had to be moved. (Knowing D.Will wasn't movable)

In other words, it sounds like we were oh so close to having this team if King had his way at the very end..

Jackson / D.Will / Jack / Morris
Anderson / Brown / Karasev
Johnson / Bogdanovic / PJ3
Young / Jefferson / Teletovic
Plumlee / Jordan

And then we would have been DESPERATE to move D.Will/Jack/JJ as that team would continue to cost us an arm and a leg, including $42m+ at the PG position alone next season. As we know there is know market for D.Will without attaching assets like Plumlee, and I don't see a team taking JJ for cap space next summer. We could probably find a taker for Jack but who knows.

Jackson - 15
D.Will - 21
Jack - 6
Bogdanovic 3.5
Johnson - 25
Young - 10
Teletovic - 6?
Plumlee - 1.5
Brown - 1
Karasev - 1.5
PJ3 - 2

Over $90m meaning we would have A LOT of work left to do to avoid the repeater tax if that was an actual goal or to get into flexible territory.

[Paradise]

We can sit here and argue about Lopez impact.

But sit back and think for a moment...King reportedly was going to hand the keys of the franchise to Reggie Jackson who turned down 4yr/48mil from the Thunder in search of a bigger deal and a starting role.

When I heard the reporters saying King told him that's the plan, I posted that he's bluffing because I thought there was no way a team would make Reggie Jackson it's cornerstone.

But what if that was true? King would've only compounded his previous errors unless he found a way to S&T him this offseason. The best part of the deal for me was PJ on a rookie contract followed by the savings we would have from Perk's expiring contract. We'd have 30 games to see if PJ is as good as I think he can be while getting close to or below LT if Reggie walks and Perk expires.

There are so many question marks concerning Reggie that I refuse to believe we seriously considered giving him a contract larger than 4yr/48mil.

I saw this deal as a way to get a prospect for free. Having Reggie or Brook isn't going to make this team much better or much worse this season and both could no longer be Nets after the end of the season. If we had done the trade we would've at least had another prospect who will definitely be here next year on a rookie deal.

Well, Billy is not the only one who has that belief in Reggie Jackson.

Jackson, 24, had been waiting for these words, for an NBA coach to tell him that he wanted to turn his team over to him, that he had watched him closely, studied his character and believed he could construct a contender around his talents.

"You're my point guard," the president and coach of the Pistons said, and soon they hung up, and Reggie Jackson crumpled and started to sob. He couldn't stop. He cried and cried and cried. And, now, 24 hours later, Jackson was on the phone with a reporter, and it was happening again.

"And then, to have people tarnish your name … it just means so much to have someone finally believe in you. I'm Stan's point guard now, and I want that responsibility. He can cuss me out in the film room, do whatever he needs to do for this team and me, because at least now I have control on the court. That's all I ever wanted."


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/reggie-jac ... 40465.html

I don't really think Reggie Jackson will make more than 48 million. My hunch is he rejected that offer because he just doesn't get along with anyone in the locker room. 48-50 million by 2016 will look like a bargain anyhow. The reality of probably overpaying Jackson did concern me but the overall core of Jackson/Young/Plumlee/Jones/Brown with the Atlanta 1st, MLE, BAE and S&T at our disposal is just too good to pass up. You build can build a decent nucleolus that way.

[Trader_Joe]

We can sit here and argue about Lopez impact.

But sit back and think for a moment...King reportedly was going to hand the keys of the franchise to Reggie Jackson who turned down 4yr/48mil from the Thunder in search of a bigger deal and a starting role.

When I heard the reporters saying King told him that's the plan, I posted that he's bluffing because I thought there was no way a team would make Reggie Jackson it's cornerstone.

But what if that was true? King would've only compounded his previous errors unless he found a way to S&T him this offseason. The best part of the deal for me was PJ on a rookie contract followed by the savings we would have from Perk's expiring contract. We'd have 30 games to see if PJ is as good as I think he can be while getting close to or below LT if Reggie walks and Perk expires.

There are so many question marks concerning Reggie that I refuse to believe we seriously considered giving him a contract larger than 4yr/48mil.

I saw this deal as a way to get a prospect for free. Having Reggie or Brook isn't going to make this team much better or much worse this season and both could no longer be Nets after the end of the season. If we had done the trade we would've at least had another prospect who will definitely be here next year on a rookie deal.

Well, Billy is not the only one who has that belief in Reggie Jackson.

Jackson, 24, had been waiting for these words, for an NBA coach to tell him that he wanted to turn his team over to him, that he had watched him closely, studied his character and believed he could construct a contender around his talents.

"You're my point guard," the president and coach of the Pistons said, and soon they hung up, and Reggie Jackson crumpled and started to sob. He couldn't stop. He cried and cried and cried. And, now, 24 hours later, Jackson was on the phone with a reporter, and it was happening again.

"And then, to have people tarnish your name … it just means so much to have someone finally believe in you. I'm Stan's point guard now, and I want that responsibility. He can cuss me out in the film room, do whatever he needs to do for this team and me, because at least now I have control on the court. That's all I ever wanted."


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/reggie-jac ... 40465.html

I don't really think Reggie Jackson will make more than 48 million. My hunch is he rejected that offer because he just doesn't get along with anyone in the locker room. 48-50 million by 2016 will look like a bargain anyhow. The reality of probably overpaying Jackson did concern me but the overall core of Jackson/Young/Plumlee/Jones/Brown with the Atlanta 1st, MLE, BAE and S&T at our disposal is just too good to pass up. You build can build a decent nucleolus that way.

How did we get all that flexibility?
JJ, D.Will and Jack would still be here unless we start using assets to dump them.
See my post above.

As for the MLE/BA...why lock into mediocre players (Martel Websters of the world with the MLE) when that starts killing any 2016 chances?

Sign and trades?
What reasonable contracts do we have to send out and what assets to attach to them?
Especially contract and assets that 29 other teams couldn't trump in a heartbeat?

That plan sounds like 2010 again with a team of Morrow, Petro, Farmar and Outlaw signed with our exceptions and traded for.

[Paradise]

How did we get all that flexibility?
JJ, D.Will and Jack would still be here unless we start using assets to dump them.
See my post above.

Jack would've been dealt to Washington.

As for the MLE/BA...why lock into mediocre players (Martel Websters of the world with the MLE) when that starts killing any 2016 chances?

Who said anything about 'Martel Websters' of the world? You expect us not to sign anyone this summer just because we are pursuing the most cap space?

Sign and trades?
What reasonable contracts do we have to send out and what assets to attach to them?
Especially contract and assets that 29 other teams couldn't trump in a heartbeat?

Is Plumlee not an asset? Is Thaddeus Young's expiring not an asset? Is Bogdanovic not an asset? Reggie Jackson is an asset. You have options regardless if it's going to happen or not. That's the point.