Nets Going Forward: Planning for Next Season

[vincecarter4pres]

No way. He’s a negative asset. He’s owed $40 million over the next two years. Denver would have to throw in a pick to dump him.

Trading Prince is also not happening. We already established 3nD wings are impossible to find. Prince wasn’t even that bad and is our best hope of becoming a 3nD wing. KD is not playing 82 games 40 minutes per night. We need as much depth at the 3/4 as possible.

Prince was a bucket of garbage last year. Harris is a 3&D wing, Prince is just 3, no D and has slipped everywhere else and is low BBIQ as they come.

He was traded for to dump salary and extended so once over the cap we have salary filler to match in perspective trades, while Marks held out hope he'd be what he could.

Prince is a negative asset as well, owed $24 over 2. Temple and Musa are expiring trash that add up to Harris' salary the following year.

A deal such as Prince/Musa/Temple is salary neutral for a year and only $8 mill extra the year after. I'd give up a pick or a "prospect" like Rodi, or even Claxton to make that swap every time.

If you're hoping for Prince to be your KD rest game fill-in, you are in a for a world of coagulated fried dumpster juice on a stick hurt. Prince will be lucky if he can be an 18mpg, minute eater in a fully stacked lineup next year.

Gary Harris is a good young player who can play high level D 1-3 and even some 4, shoots well, is athletic and great on the break and doesn't need usage, but coming off one, injury plagued bad year.

Prince is a mediocre young player with bad BBIQ, who has always been a mediocre at best defender, coming off a horrible regression year, where he basically proved he cannot be relied upon at all if over-extended in his role in the absolute slightest and it may even be the case of a guy who can't do well in a situation where winning is expected.

Harris is coming from years of winning and expectations at this point.

Harris is a 6'4 with length and better athleticism, young Danny Green.

Prince is a shooter with no handle, bad decision making, average athleticism and little actual basketball skills who looks Chuck Noland lost on defense.

Even after all that he had the highest net rating on the team, higher than Allen, Dinwiddie, LeVert, Harris, and Kyrie, the 3rd best on/off numbers, and was playing out of position. Played the 3rd most minutes.

https://go.nba.com/mwbo4

The numbers don’t lie brother. Do you think maybe it’s someone else’s IQ you should be worried about?

The numbers don't lie.

FG 0.376
AST/TO 1.8/2
PER 9.1
TS 0.497
VORP -0.4
FTr 1.20
W/S48 0.014
OWS -1.7
OBPM -2.8
DBPM -0.1
BPM -2.9
RPM -1.09

I don't have access to Synergy, but I'm sure tons of others show him poorly as an individual player.

[vincecarter4pres]

Are you guys really sold on Gary Harris?

Hes on a pretty big contract and hes been a terrible 3 point shooter the last few years.

I think there are much cheaper options through the draft and FA.

I don't love Harris, but he's a super underrated defender and it's only been 2 years his 3 point shooting has dipped and again, terrible is a hyperbolic adjective, 34 and 33 percent isn't good, but it's not horrible, or really even bad, it's a hair under average. He shot 42 and 40 the 2 seasons prior. He's good off ball, he's just an average young NBA player at worst, with solid BBIQ who doesn't overextend himself and works well off ball, a good athlete too.

Yes he's on a sizable contract, yes there are cheaper options in the free agency and the draft, but it's not a horrible contract and I'd hope we could at least send out Prince in a deal for him. If that were the case, that detail is relevant, cause I take Harris over something like Prince/Musa/Temple 110 times out of 100, even if a pick and a guy like Rodi or Claxton was attached.

LOL I would do that deal.

But nobody taking Prince for anything

We have to rebuild his value next season before we trade him.

Would probably take a 1st just for Prince to be the filler and then maybe Claxton or Rodi and a 2nd as the incentive.

I'm a fan of Gary Harris as an option, but I'm not sure he has a ton of value either, probably making a deal like that pretty realistic.

[vincecarter4pres]

No way. He’s a negative asset. He’s owed $40 million over the next two years. Denver would have to throw in a pick to dump him.

Trading Prince is also not happening. We already established 3nD wings are impossible to find. Prince wasn’t even that bad and is our best hope of becoming a 3nD wing. KD is not playing 82 games 40 minutes per night. We need as much depth at the 3/4 as possible.

Prince was a bucket of garbage last year. Harris is a 3&D wing, Prince is just 3, no D and has slipped everywhere else and is low BBIQ as they come.

He was traded for to dump salary and extended so once over the cap we have salary filler to match in perspective trades, while Marks held out hope he'd be what he could.

Prince is a negative asset as well, owed $24 over 2. Temple and Musa are expiring trash that add up to Harris' salary the following year.

A deal such as Prince/Musa/Temple is salary neutral for a year and only $8 mill extra the year after. I'd give up a pick or a "prospect" like Rodi, or even Claxton to make that swap every time.

If you're hoping for Prince to be your KD rest game fill-in, you are in a for a world of coagulated fried dumpster juice on a stick hurt. Prince will be lucky if he can be an 18mpg, minute eater in a fully stacked lineup next year.

Gary Harris is a good young player who can play high level D 1-3 and even some 4, shoots well, is athletic and great on the break and doesn't need usage, but coming off one, injury plagued bad year.

Prince is a mediocre young player with bad BBIQ, who has always been a mediocre at best defender, coming off a horrible regression year, where he basically proved he cannot be relied upon at all if over-extended in his role in the absolute slightest and it may even be the case of a guy who can't do well in a situation where winning is expected.

Harris is coming from years of winning and expectations at this point.

Harris is a 6'4 with length and better athleticism, young Danny Green.

Prince is a shooter with no handle, bad decision making, average athleticism and little actual basketball skills who looks Chuck Noland lost on defense.

I get your point on Prince, but he was in a terrible situation with Atlanta his whole career. And last year was a mess with all the injuries. He has never had a defined role or real system.

It would not be out of the real of possibility that he improves is defense with the right system. But at least hes a goodish shooter.

You are also severely overrating Gary Harris.

If Prince is not a D, then Harris is certainly not a 3 anymore. And its not like he was some shut down defender either. He was up and down. He has been a dreadful shooter this year, last year and in his 2 games in the playoffs.

We can't just assume he goes back to being a good shooter. His shot has fallen off a cliff and is showing no signs of life.

You are also underestimating how bad that contract is. I didn't even realize how bad it actually was.

Its insane to be paying 20 mill+ for a a role player. If paying him that much, he should be a borderline all star.

Not only has he not been that, he hasn't even been a good role player. Hes been absolutely terrible. One of the worst contracts in the league.

Taking on that contract is going to hamper what we can do.

We can get Gary Harris's production last year easily through the draft or from a MLE or minimum contract.

Trading for him would be an awful move the more I think about it.

He's not one of the worst contracts in the league, taking him on will hamper nothing if he's a secondary move, his defense actually is that good and you don't always get a borderline All Star in the NBA for $20 million, with only 2 years left on the deal, it's honestly your standard young guy overpay.

He was just trusted as the main defender on the atomic hot Donovan Mitchell for the game tying shot and stripped him of the ball in a game 7. Tell me next time Prince earns that kind of respect from whoever the next coach of the Nets is.

I won't argue with you you can get that kind of production out of the MLE or the draft, but it's not a given, far from it, especially in year 1 or 2 for a draft pick.

I'll still make a trade for him as a secondary move all day if it's all that's available using Prince and 1 or maybe 2 meh assets attached.

He could be the next Kent Bazemore or Allen Crabbe and spiral into scrub city oblivion, but I think he's a more confident player then that.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Prince was a bucket of garbage last year. Harris is a 3&D wing, Prince is just 3, no D and has slipped everywhere else and is low BBIQ as they come.

He was traded for to dump salary and extended so once over the cap we have salary filler to match in perspective trades, while Marks held out hope he'd be what he could.

Prince is a negative asset as well, owed $24 over 2. Temple and Musa are expiring trash that add up to Harris' salary the following year.

A deal such as Prince/Musa/Temple is salary neutral for a year and only $8 mill extra the year after. I'd give up a pick or a "prospect" like Rodi, or even Claxton to make that swap every time.

If you're hoping for Prince to be your KD rest game fill-in, you are in a for a world of coagulated fried dumpster juice on a stick hurt. Prince will be lucky if he can be an 18mpg, minute eater in a fully stacked lineup next year.

Gary Harris is a good young player who can play high level D 1-3 and even some 4, shoots well, is athletic and great on the break and doesn't need usage, but coming off one, injury plagued bad year.

Prince is a mediocre young player with bad BBIQ, who has always been a mediocre at best defender, coming off a horrible regression year, where he basically proved he cannot be relied upon at all if over-extended in his role in the absolute slightest and it may even be the case of a guy who can't do well in a situation where winning is expected.

Harris is coming from years of winning and expectations at this point.

Harris is a 6'4 with length and better athleticism, young Danny Green.

Prince is a shooter with no handle, bad decision making, average athleticism and little actual basketball skills who looks Chuck Noland lost on defense.

I get your point on Prince, but he was in a terrible situation with Atlanta his whole career. And last year was a mess with all the injuries. He has never had a defined role or real system.

It would not be out of the real of possibility that he improves is defense with the right system. But at least hes a goodish shooter.

You are also severely overrating Gary Harris.

If Prince is not a D, then Harris is certainly not a 3 anymore. And its not like he was some shut down defender either. He was up and down. He has been a dreadful shooter this year, last year and in his 2 games in the playoffs.

We can't just assume he goes back to being a good shooter. His shot has fallen off a cliff and is showing no signs of life.

You are also underestimating how bad that contract is. I didn't even realize how bad it actually was.

Its insane to be paying 20 mill+ for a a role player. If paying him that much, he should be a borderline all star.

Not only has he not been that, he hasn't even been a good role player. Hes been absolutely terrible. One of the worst contracts in the league.

Taking on that contract is going to hamper what we can do.

We can get Gary Harris's production last year easily through the draft or from a MLE or minimum contract.

Trading for him would be an awful move the more I think about it.

He's not one of the worst contracts in the league, taking him on will hamper nothing if he's a secondary move, his defense actually is that good and you don't always get a borderline All Star in the NBA for $20 million, with only 2 years left on the deal, it's honestly your standard young guy overpay.

He was just trusted as the main defender on the atomic hot Donovan Mitchell for the game tying shot and stripped him of the ball in a game 7. Tell me next time Prince earns that kind of respect from whoever the next coach of the Nets is.

I won't argue that you can get that kind of production out of the MLE or the draft, but it's not a given, far from it, especially in year 1 or 2 for a draft pick.

I'll still make a trade for him as a secondary move all day if it's all that's available using Prince and 1 or maybe 2 meh assets attached.

He could be the next Kent Bazemore or Allen Crabbe and spiral into scrub city oblivion, but I think he's a more confident player then that.

Are you forgetting that Harris was also 1-9 for shooting. And Mitchell was literally gassed that whole game.

He was so bad offensively, it doesn't even go to that play if he can just make open shots.

I'm not letting one good defensive play make me think hes worth paying 20 million +.

There are far smarter moves to make. If not the draft, I would take a chance on a minimum type guy rather than shelling all that money and minor assets for Harris.

[vincecarter4pres]

I get your point on Prince, but he was in a terrible situation with Atlanta his whole career. And last year was a mess with all the injuries. He has never had a defined role or real system.

It would not be out of the real of possibility that he improves is defense with the right system. But at least hes a goodish shooter.

You are also severely overrating Gary Harris.

If Prince is not a D, then Harris is certainly not a 3 anymore. And its not like he was some shut down defender either. He was up and down. He has been a dreadful shooter this year, last year and in his 2 games in the playoffs.

We can't just assume he goes back to being a good shooter. His shot has fallen off a cliff and is showing no signs of life.

You are also underestimating how bad that contract is. I didn't even realize how bad it actually was.

Its insane to be paying 20 mill+ for a a role player. If paying him that much, he should be a borderline all star.

Not only has he not been that, he hasn't even been a good role player. Hes been absolutely terrible. One of the worst contracts in the league.

Taking on that contract is going to hamper what we can do.

We can get Gary Harris's production last year easily through the draft or from a MLE or minimum contract.

Trading for him would be an awful move the more I think about it.

He's not one of the worst contracts in the league, taking him on will hamper nothing if he's a secondary move, his defense actually is that good and you don't always get a borderline All Star in the NBA for $20 million, with only 2 years left on the deal, it's honestly your standard young guy overpay.

He was just trusted as the main defender on the atomic hot Donovan Mitchell for the game tying shot and stripped him of the ball in a game 7. Tell me next time Prince earns that kind of respect from whoever the next coach of the Nets is.

I won't argue that you can get that kind of production out of the MLE or the draft, but it's not a given, far from it, especially in year 1 or 2 for a draft pick.

I'll still make a trade for him as a secondary move all day if it's all that's available using Prince and 1 or maybe 2 meh assets attached.

He could be the next Kent Bazemore or Allen Crabbe and spiral into scrub city oblivion, but I think he's a more confident player then that.

Are you forgetting that Harris was also 1-9 for shooting. And Mitchell was literally gassed that whole game.

He was so bad offensively, it doesn't even go to that play if he can just make open shots.

I'm not letting one good defensive play make me think hes worth paying 20 million +.

There are far smarter moves to make. If not the draft, I would take a chance on a minimum type guy rather than shelling all that money and minor assets for Harris.

We'll have to agree to disagree but I'm talking about this as a secondary move and again, I'm talking about sending out bad salary in Prince, Musa and Temple to match, making year 1 salary neutral and year 2 only a little less than $8 million in offset. And lastly, it would be minor assets. Chances are you aren't even talking more then either one 1st, or Claxton, or maybe Rodi and a 2nd and some cash considerations.

Last time though, just to reiterate... I am not talking about this as an initial move, where you use up assets, no matter how minor, before you see the trade market landscape of the off-season. This is a follow up move if you pull off a Gobert trade, or a Beal or Jrue trade, something like that, especially the former.

[ProspectPark]

Prince was a bucket of garbage last year. Harris is a 3&D wing, Prince is just 3, no D and has slipped everywhere else and is low BBIQ as they come.

He was traded for to dump salary and extended so once over the cap we have salary filler to match in perspective trades, while Marks held out hope he'd be what he could.

Prince is a negative asset as well, owed $24 over 2. Temple and Musa are expiring trash that add up to Harris' salary the following year.

A deal such as Prince/Musa/Temple is salary neutral for a year and only $8 mill extra the year after. I'd give up a pick or a "prospect" like Rodi, or even Claxton to make that swap every time.

If you're hoping for Prince to be your KD rest game fill-in, you are in a for a world of coagulated fried dumpster juice on a stick hurt. Prince will be lucky if he can be an 18mpg, minute eater in a fully stacked lineup next year.

Gary Harris is a good young player who can play high level D 1-3 and even some 4, shoots well, is athletic and great on the break and doesn't need usage, but coming off one, injury plagued bad year.

Prince is a mediocre young player with bad BBIQ, who has always been a mediocre at best defender, coming off a horrible regression year, where he basically proved he cannot be relied upon at all if over-extended in his role in the absolute slightest and it may even be the case of a guy who can't do well in a situation where winning is expected.

Harris is coming from years of winning and expectations at this point.

Harris is a 6'4 with length and better athleticism, young Danny Green.

Prince is a shooter with no handle, bad decision making, average athleticism and little actual basketball skills who looks Chuck Noland lost on defense.

Even after all that he had the highest net rating on the team, higher than Allen, Dinwiddie, LeVert, Harris, and Kyrie, the 3rd best on/off numbers, and was playing out of position. Played the 3rd most minutes.

https://go.nba.com/mwbo4

The numbers don’t lie brother. Do you think maybe it’s someone else’s IQ you should be worried about?

The numbers don't lie.

FG 0.376
AST/TO 1.8/2
PER 9.1
TS 0.497
VORP -0.4
FTr 1.20
W/S48 0.014
OWS -1.7
OBPM -2.8
DBPM -0.1
BPM -2.9
RPM -1.09

I don't have access to Synergy, but I'm sure tons of others show him poorly as an individual player.

Box score metrics measure a player’s IQ?

[Papi_swav]

Good list VC4P. Gary Harris would be an awesome get but I'm pretty sure Nuggets ain't letting him go. Kris Dunn should be able to get for cheap and so should Moe Harkless and/or Marvin Williams. Aaron Baynes would also be another guy I want if we get rid of one of our centers. There's a whole lot of opportunities for us here, we need to cash all in now.

Idk, a team like Denver just can’t pay all these guys, hell a team like the Nets can’t for sustained years either.

They have 2 max contracts, a few reasonable ones like Harris’ and Barton’s and hope to retain Grant, Morris and Craig soon and have aspirations to consolidate and trade for another expensive 3rd star.

He seems like the odd man out and is a good, but not great player, even in the context of his specific role. I’d bet he could be had on the semi-cheap, maybe as part of a 3 team deal where we kick a pick, a prospect, Prince and Temple in to add value to their package.

idk man I think Gary Harris is a bigger priority than Morris , Grant and Craig put together I could be wrong. Would love to get him tho

[Papi_swav]

Good list VC4P. Gary Harris would be an awesome get but I'm pretty sure Nuggets ain't letting him go. Kris Dunn should be able to get for cheap and so should Moe Harkless and/or Marvin Williams. Aaron Baynes would also be another guy I want if we get rid of one of our centers. There's a whole lot of opportunities for us here, we need to cash all in now.

I love Baynes.

Dunn is the same size as Jrue, not quite the class of defender, and not the offensive player he is. Dunn has seemed to struggle to find a role because of his offense and being good but not great defensively. he more fits the scenario to me where if he was bigger maybe. but hard to give him Guard minutes with his offense

Dunn is the same class as a defender, his defensive metrics were excellent on a team that wasn't good defensively. He excelled in all advanced defensive stats. Like I've been saying, his problem is that he is really trash offensively, but maybe we can make it work here next to two offensive stars in Kyrie & KD.

Yea exactly, Dunn has good metrics on one of the worst defensive teams in the league, now that's saying something. I don't really care for the offensive side because we got enough offense, as long as he can make the right pass or knock down a 3 I'm sold. We need some tough defenders and guys that puts the effort in, Dunn checks those boxes. and he has good size where he can guard both guard spots and maybe even some 3. If we can get him for a BAE or lower it's a no brainer.

[vincecarter4pres]

Even after all that he had the highest net rating on the team, higher than Allen, Dinwiddie, LeVert, Harris, and Kyrie, the 3rd best on/off numbers, and was playing out of position. Played the 3rd most minutes.

https://go.nba.com/mwbo4

The numbers don’t lie brother. Do you think maybe it’s someone else’s IQ you should be worried about?

The numbers don't lie.

FG 0.376
AST/TO 1.8/2
PER 9.1
TS 0.497
VORP -0.4
FTr 1.20
W/S48 0.014
OWS -1.7
OBPM -2.8
DBPM -0.1
BPM -2.9
RPM -1.09

I don't have access to Synergy, but I'm sure tons of others show him poorly as an individual player.

Box score metrics measure a player’s IQ?

[Papi_swav]

The numbers don't lie.

FG 0.376
AST/TO 1.8/2
PER 9.1
TS 0.497
VORP -0.4
FTr 1.20
W/S48 0.014
OWS -1.7
OBPM -2.8
DBPM -0.1
BPM -2.9
RPM -1.09

I don't have access to Synergy, but I'm sure tons of others show him poorly as an individual player.

Box score metrics measure a player’s IQ?

lol i respect you 7footMonster but Prince is literally one of the dum-est players in the game. I cannot count how many times the dude made horrible plays. Literally every game thread we had this conversation

[MrDollarBills]

You're citing all this "analysis" from the Athletic, Zach Lowe, and 538, yet at the same time, you completely refuse to support the idea of having Jrue here, who is an analytical darling for those same analysts. Both you and Hello Brooklyn constantly do this, and ironically also agree on the same points. I don't even necessarily disagree on you with some of the things regarding Levert, but its just baffling to constantly see you guys do this

"The only thing we know for sure is small backcourts like Kyrie/Beal are usually defensive disasters and never win"- Dude, an ultra small backcourt of Kyle Lowry & Fred VanVleet just won the NBA championship last year, what are you talking about? Those guys are actually close to 5'11", like you keep claiming

RE: The Raptors backcourt, let's not forget that FVV is an excellent defender even at 6'1.

I know, but a really small two PG-backcourt has worked for Raps, and resulted in a championship, and an excellent reg season this year. Jrue is 6'4" and a better defender than either Lowry or FVV. Beal is also between 6'4" and 6'5", and the guy keeps arguing about small backcourts being disasters.

Last year the Raptor's starting backcourt was Lowry and Danny Green, but FVV was their super sub.

But that being said, I would sign up for a Irving/Holiday backcourt right now. We need a good defender in the backcourt next to Kyrie.

I think we can live with a Irving/Holiday/Harris/Durant/Jordan starting 5 (I'm assuming the cost of doing business would be Allen and either Spencer or LeVert). It could give Irving opportunities to focus more on scoring as well since Jrue gives you about 6-7 assists a night.

[MrDollarBills]

He's not one of the worst contracts in the league, taking him on will hamper nothing if he's a secondary move, his defense actually is that good and you don't always get a borderline All Star in the NBA for $20 million, with only 2 years left on the deal, it's honestly your standard young guy overpay.

He was just trusted as the main defender on the atomic hot Donovan Mitchell for the game tying shot and stripped him of the ball in a game 7. Tell me next time Prince earns that kind of respect from whoever the next coach of the Nets is.

I won't argue that you can get that kind of production out of the MLE or the draft, but it's not a given, far from it, especially in year 1 or 2 for a draft pick.

I'll still make a trade for him as a secondary move all day if it's all that's available using Prince and 1 or maybe 2 meh assets attached.

He could be the next Kent Bazemore or Allen Crabbe and spiral into scrub city oblivion, but I think he's a more confident player then that.

Are you forgetting that Harris was also 1-9 for shooting. And Mitchell was literally gassed that whole game.

He was so bad offensively, it doesn't even go to that play if he can just make open shots.

I'm not letting one good defensive play make me think hes worth paying 20 million +.

There are far smarter moves to make. If not the draft, I would take a chance on a minimum type guy rather than shelling all that money and minor assets for Harris.

We'll have to agree to disagree but I'm talking about this as a secondary move and again, I'm talking about sending out bad salary in Prince, Musa and Temple to match, making year 1 salary neutral and year 2 only a little less than $8 million in offset. And lastly, it would be minor assets. Chances are you aren't even talking more then either one 1st, or Claxton, or maybe Rodi and a 2nd and some cash considerations.

Last time though, just to reiterate... I am not talking about this as an initial move, where you use up assets, no matter how minor, before you see the trade market landscape of the off-season. This is a follow up move if you pull off a Gobert trade, or a Beal or Jrue trade, something like that, especially the former.

Why would Denver take any of that in a trade?

[DarkXaero]

RE: The Raptors backcourt, let's not forget that FVV is an excellent defender even at 6'1.

I know, but a really small two PG-backcourt has worked for Raps, and resulted in a championship, and an excellent reg season this year. Jrue is 6'4" and a better defender than either Lowry or FVV. Beal is also between 6'4" and 6'5", and the guy keeps arguing about small backcourts being disasters.

Last year the Raptor's starting backcourt was Lowry and Danny Green, but FVV was their super sub.

But that being said, I would sign up for a Irving/Holiday backcourt right now. We need a good defender in the backcourt next to Kyrie.

I think we can live with a Irving/Holiday/Harris/Durant/Jordan starting 5 (I'm assuming the cost of doing business would be Allen and either Spencer or LeVert). It could give Irving opportunities to focus more on scoring as well since Jrue gives you about 6-7 assists a night.

Lowry & FVV shared a lot of minutes in the playoffs, particularly against Bucks and Warriors. Danny Green was shooting himself out of playing time, while FVV was shooting himself into playing time.

Levert & Allen is way too much for Jrue Holiday, its gotta be less. Levert + Temple + Philly pick is a more than good enough offer for Jrue. It doesn't mean that Pelicans will accept it because I'd imagine that there will be a lot of competition for Jrue (meaning a lot of different offers for Pelicans to pick).

[ProspectPark]

Box score metrics measure a player’s IQ?

lol i respect you 7footMonster but Prince is literally one of the dum-est players in the game. I cannot count how many times the dude made horrible plays. Literally every game thread we had this conversation

That’s fine I’m just asking why when I look at the On/Off stats, Lineup metrics, Net Rating...etc. He’s a positive?

For example:

Our two most used 3 man lineups:

Dinwiddie Harris Prince - 1,210 minutes - Net Rating +3.7
Harris Prince Allen - 1,208 minutes - Net Rating +2.7

4 man lineups
Prince Dinwiddie Allen Harris - 993 minutes - Net Rating +3.3

On/Off
Prince On 1,857 minutes Offensive Rating 109.6
Prince Off 1,255 minutes Offensive Rating 101.9
Net +7.7

Our best True Shooting percentage lineups have Prince on the court.

Of all the players that played 40+ games, he had the highest net rating on the team. I don’t care about his VORP or PER or how many rebounds he grabbed. I care about how many possessions did we win while he was on the court.

So he gets called low IQ, but has the best net rating on the team. I’m just trying to understand how that’s possible, especially since he’s not some freak athlete like Zion or Giannis. How is he having a positive impact on the court if it’s not athleticism or IQ?

We were one of the worst turnover teams in the league. Everybody made mistakes. Dinwiddie, LeVert, Allen...Everyone. Let’s be fair and not blame Prince, when even with him learning Kenny’s system, he was still a net positive. There’s no need to go overboard and get all entitled and give up on a 6’7 wing who can shoot, after 1 chaotic season, when that’s literally what every team in the league is dying to find.

[MrDollarBills]

I know, but a really small two PG-backcourt has worked for Raps, and resulted in a championship, and an excellent reg season this year. Jrue is 6'4" and a better defender than either Lowry or FVV. Beal is also between 6'4" and 6'5", and the guy keeps arguing about small backcourts being disasters.

Last year the Raptor's starting backcourt was Lowry and Danny Green, but FVV was their super sub.

But that being said, I would sign up for a Irving/Holiday backcourt right now. We need a good defender in the backcourt next to Kyrie.

I think we can live with a Irving/Holiday/Harris/Durant/Jordan starting 5 (I'm assuming the cost of doing business would be Allen and either Spencer or LeVert). It could give Irving opportunities to focus more on scoring as well since Jrue gives you about 6-7 assists a night.

Lowry & FVV shared a lot of minutes in the playoffs, particularly against Bucks and Warriors. Danny Green was shooting himself out of playing time, while FVV was shooting himself into playing time.

Levert & Allen is way too much for Jrue Holiday, its gotta be less. Levert + Temple + Philly pick is a more than good enough offer for Jrue. It doesn't mean that Pelicans will accept it because I'd imagine that there will be a lot of competition for Jrue (meaning a lot of different offers for Pelicans to pick).

true, if you look at the minutes distribution, FVV was racking up 30+ while Green wasn't.

I'm just trying to think from NO's perspective as to what they would take. Do they really have a reason to trade Jrue? Looking at their numbers for next season they aren't anywhere near a tax payer. Of course, a trade for the package that you propose (we would also need to include another player to make it work) probably gives them some relief from Jrue's final year on the deal at 26 million.

I also question how well a trio of LeVert/Ingram/Williamson works.

[vincecarter4pres]

lol i respect you 7footMonster but Prince is literally one of the dum-est players in the game. I cannot count how many times the dude made horrible plays. Literally every game thread we had this conversation

That’s fine I’m just asking why when I look at the On/Off stats, Lineup metrics, Net Rating...etc. He’s a positive?

For example:

Our two most used 3 man lineups:

Dinwiddie Harris Prince - 1,210 minutes - Net Rating +3.7
Harris Prince Allen - 1,208 minutes - Net Rating +2.7

4 man lineups
Prince Dinwiddie Allen Harris - 993 minutes - Net Rating +3.3

On/Off
Prince On 1,857 minutes Offensive Rating 109.6
Prince Off 1,255 minutes Offensive Rating 101.9
Net +7.7

Our best True Shooting percentage lineups have Prince on the court.

Of all the players that played 40+ games, he had the highest net rating on the team. I don’t care about his VORP or PER or how many rebounds he grabbed. I care about how many possessions did we win while he was on the court.

So he gets called low IQ, but has the best net rating on the team. I’m just trying to understand how that’s possible, especially since he’s not some freak athlete like Zion or Giannis. How is he having a positive impact on the court if it’s not athleticism or IQ?

We were one of the worst turnover teams in the league. Everybody made mistakes. Dinwiddie, LeVert, Allen...Everyone. Let’s be fair and not blame Prince, when even with him learning Kenny’s system, he was still a net positive. There’s no need to go overboard and get all entitled and give up on a 6’7 wing who can shoot, after 1 chaotic season, when that’s literally what every team in the league is dying to find.

I'm trying to figure out how any of those stats proves his IQ?

And I do see a theme in all those lineups, it's all our best players are in them.

I'm going to say it's an obvious anomaly of that stat, when that stat paints all our good players down to Kyrie as negative to neutral impact/production/value, but Taureen Prince as our best player and the glue holding everything together.

Somewhere common sense has to takeover, no?

And that's great that you only care about a handful of stats in this particular instance where it supports your point, but stats all over paint Prince as awful and the eye test supports those stats...

When the stats paint Levert as not so hot you love to ignore them though, a tad ironic? Hypocritical?

[vincecarter4pres]

Are you forgetting that Harris was also 1-9 for shooting. And Mitchell was literally gassed that whole game.

He was so bad offensively, it doesn't even go to that play if he can just make open shots.

I'm not letting one good defensive play make me think hes worth paying 20 million +.

There are far smarter moves to make. If not the draft, I would take a chance on a minimum type guy rather than shelling all that money and minor assets for Harris.

We'll have to agree to disagree but I'm talking about this as a secondary move and again, I'm talking about sending out bad salary in Prince, Musa and Temple to match, making year 1 salary neutral and year 2 only a little less than $8 million in offset. And lastly, it would be minor assets. Chances are you aren't even talking more then either one 1st, or Claxton, or maybe Rodi and a 2nd and some cash considerations.

Last time though, just to reiterate... I am not talking about this as an initial move, where you use up assets, no matter how minor, before you see the trade market landscape of the off-season. This is a follow up move if you pull off a Gobert trade, or a Beal or Jrue trade, something like that, especially the former.

Why would Denver take any of that in a trade?

Not sure if they would or wouldn't, but I don't think teams will be lining up all over to get in a bidding war for Gary Harris. In fact a lot of teams probably will feel like 7foot and Hello Brooklyn about him. Personally I believe in him bouncing back though, and with a guy like him you can try and be opportunistic and you either end up with TJ Warren, or you end up with Allen Crabbe.

[ProspectPark]

lol i respect you 7footMonster but Prince is literally one of the dum-est players in the game. I cannot count how many times the dude made horrible plays. Literally every game thread we had this conversation

That’s fine I’m just asking why when I look at the On/Off stats, Lineup metrics, Net Rating...etc. He’s a positive?

For example:

Our two most used 3 man lineups:

Dinwiddie Harris Prince - 1,210 minutes - Net Rating +3.7
Harris Prince Allen - 1,208 minutes - Net Rating +2.7

4 man lineups
Prince Dinwiddie Allen Harris - 993 minutes - Net Rating +3.3

On/Off
Prince On 1,857 minutes Offensive Rating 109.6
Prince Off 1,255 minutes Offensive Rating 101.9
Net +7.7

Our best True Shooting percentage lineups have Prince on the court.

Of all the players that played 40+ games, he had the highest net rating on the team. I don’t care about his VORP or PER or how many rebounds he grabbed. I care about how many possessions did we win while he was on the court.

So he gets called low IQ, but has the best net rating on the team. I’m just trying to understand how that’s possible, especially since he’s not some freak athlete like Zion or Giannis. How is he having a positive impact on the court if it’s not athleticism or IQ?

We were one of the worst turnover teams in the league. Everybody made mistakes. Dinwiddie, LeVert, Allen...Everyone. Let’s be fair and not blame Prince, when even with him learning Kenny’s system, he was still a net positive. There’s no need to go overboard and get all entitled and give up on a 6’7 wing who can shoot, after 1 chaotic season, when that’s literally what every team in the league is dying to find.

I'm trying to figure out how any of those stats proves his IQ?

And I do see a theme in all those lineups, it's all our best players are in them.

I'm going to say it's an obvious anomaly of that stat, when that stat paints all our good players down to Kyrie as negative to neutral impact/production/value, but Taureen Prince as our best player and the glue holding everything together.

Somewhere common sense has to takeover, no?

And that's great that you only care about a handful of stats in this particular instance where it supports your point, but stats all over paint Prince as awful and the eye test supports those stats...

When the stats paint Levert as not so hot you love to ignore them though, a tad ironic? Hypocritical?

If you’re still using win shares and VORP, then we probably have nothing to talk about. We’ll just have to wait until next season. We just have different views. You want to trade for Tobias Harris, Al Horford, and Harrison Barnes. I would prefer to just give Prince another shot. It is what it is.

[GTR11]

That’s fine I’m just asking why when I look at the On/Off stats, Lineup metrics, Net Rating...etc. He’s a positive?

For example:

Our two most used 3 man lineups:

Dinwiddie Harris Prince - 1,210 minutes - Net Rating +3.7
Harris Prince Allen - 1,208 minutes - Net Rating +2.7

4 man lineups
Prince Dinwiddie Allen Harris - 993 minutes - Net Rating +3.3

On/Off
Prince On 1,857 minutes Offensive Rating 109.6
Prince Off 1,255 minutes Offensive Rating 101.9
Net +7.7

Our best True Shooting percentage lineups have Prince on the court.

Of all the players that played 40+ games, he had the highest net rating on the team. I don’t care about his VORP or PER or how many rebounds he grabbed. I care about how many possessions did we win while he was on the court.

So he gets called low IQ, but has the best net rating on the team. I’m just trying to understand how that’s possible, especially since he’s not some freak athlete like Zion or Giannis. How is he having a positive impact on the court if it’s not athleticism or IQ?

We were one of the worst turnover teams in the league. Everybody made mistakes. Dinwiddie, LeVert, Allen...Everyone. Let’s be fair and not blame Prince, when even with him learning Kenny’s system, he was still a net positive. There’s no need to go overboard and get all entitled and give up on a 6’7 wing who can shoot, after 1 chaotic season, when that’s literally what every team in the league is dying to find.

I'm trying to figure out how any of those stats proves his IQ?

And I do see a theme in all those lineups, it's all our best players are in them.

I'm going to say it's an obvious anomaly of that stat, when that stat paints all our good players down to Kyrie as negative to neutral impact/production/value, but Taureen Prince as our best player and the glue holding everything together.

Somewhere common sense has to takeover, no?

And that's great that you only care about a handful of stats in this particular instance where it supports your point, but stats all over paint Prince as awful and the eye test supports those stats...

When the stats paint Levert as not so hot you love to ignore them though, a tad ironic? Hypocritical?

If you’re still using win shares and VORP, then we probably have nothing to talk about. We’ll just have to wait until next season. We just have different views. You want to trade for Tobias Harris, Al Horford, and Harrison Barnes. I would prefer to just give Prince another shot. It is what it is.

He's team D was horrible. Never knew what was going on, however he was one of the better one on one defenders in NBA. Prince has to be in coaches meeting all the time while they breaking down film. He has all the tools to be great defender imo. I can't remember where I posted stat list, but data backs it up.

[MrDollarBills]

Yeah Prince's individual defense was fine.

If next season Prince is KD's back up he will be a lot better imo. He'll be playing against 2nd units and will be asked just to space the floor and defend his match up.