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The Official Lin Net Thread

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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1481 » by Kswiss » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:15 pm

JohnStockton wrote:Jeremy used to be a below-average defender IMO. Then he got to somewhere being average defensively. Last year, he seemingly took a solid step forward and became a clear plus-defender. This is based on just the eye test.

That said, I haven't liked Jeremy's defense that much so far. He's been okay at best, but I've seen him get beaten off the dribble badly on a handful of occasions.

While it's important to give credit to JLin for being a very good defender last year, it is also important to note that he played that defense against Shooting Guards. Because of that, I was a bit unsure of how to rate his defense against Point Guards.

At this [too early] point, it seems like Jeremy has gone back to having average defensive impact on the game.

However, I don't think this is some physical/skill reversion or something.

I think it's due to the fact that with the league downsizing, Lin at 6'3--with good contesting instincts and a speed advantage over all Shooting guards--can guard and contest the vast majority of Shooting Guards in the league. The only SGs who gave him trouble were SGs with post games (Joe Johnson/Wade), and very large SGs who could just shoot over him (Klay 6'6). Almost everyone else, he covered well.

However, this year at the PG position, Lin has given up man-on-man penetration quite often, and his defensive impact hasn't been the same. I think this is clearly due to the nature that opposing PGs are just a lot quicker off the dribble than SGs. To be fair, it's pretty much impossible to keep competent PGs out of getting penetration without handchecking, so it's not a huge knock to Lin--but it also means that Lin won't have as much of a defensive impact as he did last year (just through the nature of playing PG).

One of the perks of having Lin is that he has combo-guard ability, but the team can't take advantage of that because they don't have another competent PG to play alongside him if they want to slide him to the 2. Another issue is that if Lin allows penetration, this team doesn't have mobile bigs that can cover up for the penetration and recover to their man in time. The closest thing they have is Booker... and he's the only big capable of doing that. All the other bigs are very laterally slow. This is what is going to kill the team IMO. Even if they play good fundamental defense and give good rotations, their big-men will still rotate too slowly... simply because they're naturally slow footed.

I agree that Lin has looked pretty average on defense so far, but be aware it is preseason so he probably doesn't want to waste tread on his tires for meaningless games when there's 82 games ahead. Also he is gonna play a lot more minutes this season so he will not be able to play as tenacious defense for stamina reasons but also because he can't afford to get in foul trouble as our best player. While he is on the bench, we are going to struggle so when he has a few fouls on him he is going to have to back off slightly as we saw last game. He still played decent defense, IT scored 8 on him while he scored 10 on IT. Still, I don't think he can afford to be the elite defensive player he was last year for the Hornets on this team
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1482 » by LostInACrowd » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:33 pm

Kswiss wrote:
JohnStockton wrote:Jeremy used to be a below-average defender IMO. Then he got to somewhere being average defensively. Last year, he seemingly took a solid step forward and became a clear plus-defender. This is based on just the eye test.

That said, I haven't liked Jeremy's defense that much so far. He's been okay at best, but I've seen him get beaten off the dribble badly on a handful of occasions.

While it's important to give credit to JLin for being a very good defender last year, it is also important to note that he played that defense against Shooting Guards. Because of that, I was a bit unsure of how to rate his defense against Point Guards.

At this [too early] point, it seems like Jeremy has gone back to having average defensive impact on the game.

However, I don't think this is some physical/skill reversion or something.

I think it's due to the fact that with the league downsizing, Lin at 6'3--with good contesting instincts and a speed advantage over all Shooting guards--can guard and contest the vast majority of Shooting Guards in the league. The only SGs who gave him trouble were SGs with post games (Joe Johnson/Wade), and very large SGs who could just shoot over him (Klay 6'6). Almost everyone else, he covered well.

However, this year at the PG position, Lin has given up man-on-man penetration quite often, and his defensive impact hasn't been the same. I think this is clearly due to the nature that opposing PGs are just a lot quicker off the dribble than SGs. To be fair, it's pretty much impossible to keep competent PGs out of getting penetration without handchecking, so it's not a huge knock to Lin--but it also means that Lin won't have as much of a defensive impact as he did last year (just through the nature of playing PG).

One of the perks of having Lin is that he has combo-guard ability, but the team can't take advantage of that because they don't have another competent PG to play alongside him if they want to slide him to the 2. Another issue is that if Lin allows penetration, this team doesn't have mobile bigs that can cover up for the penetration and recover to their man in time. The closest thing they have is Booker... and he's the only big capable of doing that. All the other bigs are very laterally slow. This is what is going to kill the team IMO. Even if they play good fundamental defense and give good rotations, their big-men will still rotate too slowly... simply because they're naturally slow footed.

I agree that Lin has looked pretty average on defense so far, but be aware it is preseason so he probably doesn't want to waste tread on his tires for meaningless games when there's 82 games ahead. Also he is gonna play a lot more minutes this season so he will not be able to play as tenacious defense for stamina reasons but also because he can't afford to get in foul trouble as our best player. While he is on the bench, we are going to struggle so when he has a few fouls on him he is going to have to back off slightly as we saw last game. He still played decent defense, IT scored 8 on him while he scored 10 on IT. Still, I don't think he can afford to be the elite defensive player he was last year for the Hornets on this team

Lin has never been an elite defensive player.

He also isn't trying not "to waste tread on his tires for meaningless games". One of his better qualities is that he plays hard no matter what the situation. He is taking charges in the pre season games and even taking them in scrimmages. I think Stockton is pretty spot on in his evaluation.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1483 » by LostInACrowd » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:41 pm

Here are some fun but meaningless stats:

Lin is shooting 76% true shooting for the pre season. Curry had a historically high 74% last year.
Lin is leading the team with a positive 9.2 net rtg. 4 of the 5 starters have a postive net rtg. so that's promising.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1484 » by hood30 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:23 am

LostInACrowd wrote:Lin has never been an elite defensive player.

He also isn't trying not "to waste tread on his tires for meaningless games". One of his better qualities is that he plays hard no matter what the situation. He is taking charges in the pre season games and even taking them in scrimmages. I think Stockton is pretty spot on in his evaluation.


Was going to write something similar...Lin is not a great defender and has never been anywhere close to that because of his defensive lateral movement....What Lin is, is a good "help defender" who will help his teammates and rotate and take charges......He's not going to consistently keep guys like Thomas, Lillard in front of him, and to be fair to Lin, not many PG could.

I also agree that Lin positive defensive stats with Charlotte had more to do with him guarding shooting-guards, who are typically slower than PG and that diminished Lin's defensive lateral movement weakness.

Lin is a decent defender...He's better than what the media perceive him as but he's not great and he will give up plenty of penetration to the quicker star guards...But with these quick guards, you need to stop them as a team and having your big rotating and helping out when someone gets beaten off the dribble,,,,Charlotte was great because of their "team defensive" and Lin fitted them perfectly.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1485 » by Appwrangler » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:34 am

JohnStockton wrote:Jeremy used to be a below-average defender IMO. Then he got to somewhere being average defensively. Last year, he seemingly took a solid step forward and became a clear plus-defender. This is based on just the eye test.

That said, I haven't liked Jeremy's defense that much so far. He's been okay at best, but I've seen him get beaten off the dribble badly on a handful of occasions...


His lateral speed has never been that great, which is a problem when keeping guards out of the paint. But it seems a lot of times he's funneling the player towards some imaginary rim-protector in the paint. Maybe when he realizes he's on his own he'll make more of an effort to stop dribble penetration.

BTW, has this been posted yet?
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1486 » by TinmanZBoy » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:12 am

IMO, Lin is never a bad defender, he is always good defender in my book, particularly if you put him in a switchy defense, doing a lot help defense... he is not the quickest to stay in front of PGs to prevent penetration, but he is not slow either...
Last season's success lied in
1, Coach clifford's defensive system... Coach clifford almost called every's defensive plays, they were very disciplinary, rotated on time, a lot helps on each other... talking about defending on a string, that's what they were most of last season... Lin's a good help defender, fit the system very well...
2, Improvements on defensive fundamentals, not jumpy any more when close out on shooters, know how to use arms and hands to certain angles with Purpose...
3, Played off bench, he could put all out energy once he entered the game..., he was defending more other teams' backups than starters


4, He still defends better against PG than SG...but he is competent to defend most shooting guards in the league
5, Lin is one of the bast PGs who defends inside, always
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1487 » by ChokeFasncists » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:15 am

I think Silas might be very good for him. He helped him in GSW to be a stopper. My guess is he depended on going all out and sticking with his opponents.

Then he played 40+ minutes doing everything for MDA, defense wasn't an emphasis. His main problem was fighting thru screens. McFail and the Tank Commander certainly didn't help.

He visibly solved that problem with Cliff and Silas.

Not being able to stay in front of the likes of Westbrook, Lillard etc is normal but virtually every PG uses picks nowadays. It was a big problem when he had trouble fight thru them.

I hope he retains this skill.
MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
Thanks for the honesty.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1488 » by ChokeFasncists » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:32 am

GoodDayLa wrote:
ChokeFasncists wrote:
GoodDayLa wrote:
If a healthy Lin and Brook miss the playoffs, it would lead me to believe i have very poor basketball analysis skills and we're talking a lot of basketball through the years at this point. It would also tell me I had blinders on for Jlin and was reaching way too far.

So if they win 44 games and since the other borderline teams play great they barely miss the playoffs you're like the above.
So if they win 39 games and since the other borderline teams have a lot of injuries they make the playoffs it's the opposite?
8-)


nobody puts an asterisk on the Warriors champion season except Charles Barkley since other teams got a lot of injuries.

They either make it or they dont, extraneous factors be damned.

:lol: You friggin crazy!

Actually playing and winning is vastly different from making predictions tho.

One thing for sure, if this team wins 44 games and miss the playoffs, it wouldn't mean Lin's a scrub.
MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
Thanks for the honesty.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1489 » by anthoang » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:37 am

What Point Guards in the league are considered "A" defenders?
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1490 » by ChokeFasncists » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:45 am

^
Hill
Payton
Conley
Rubio
CP3?
DWill 8-)
MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
Thanks for the honesty.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1491 » by Prokorov » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:56 pm

ChokeFasncists wrote:^
Hill
Payton
Conley
Rubio
CP3?
DWill 8-)


paul, rubio, lowry, price, smart, bledsoe, westbrook are the top PG defenders.

that said, it doesnt really matter much, as PG defense is the least valuable of any position and only 4 or 5 guys each year have more then a nuertal impact with over 70% of point gaurds having a negative impact defensively.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1492 » by bws94 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:52 pm

Prokorov wrote:
ChokeFasncists wrote:^
Hill
Payton
Conley
Rubio
CP3?
DWill 8-)


paul, rubio, lowry, price, smart, bledsoe, westbrook are the top PG defenders.

that said, it doesnt really matter much, as PG defense is the least valuable of any position and only 4 or 5 guys each year have more then a nuertal impact with over 70% of point gaurds having a negative impact defensively.


Rubio? Not any more. Lin usually does very well against Lowry. Beverley is considered a strong PG defender but his ratings have gone down as well. Hill is another one Lin tends to do well against.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1493 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:14 pm

Frankly it's next to impossible for most of these guys to be able to stay in front of each other at that position.

Rubio is a plus defender in Defensive RAPM and DBPM metrics and he's routinely one of the top 10 leaders in steals
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1494 » by reelsgm » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:34 pm

So it's back to Lin's defense again? Coach Clifford has repeatedly said Lin was the key which allowed the rotation Cliff wanted because Lin could guard ANYBODY but the biggest wings and Clifford lived those words by getting Lin back on the floor after little recovery from repeatedly turning his ankle. Just lifted this off the CHA board:
tonman wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:...Between Sessions, Belinelli, Lamb, and MKG, who collectively will fill the minutes that Lin had, I think there is enough diversity and offensive ability to offset what Lin brought.

And that is the crux of the problem. Charlotte has to come up with a committee of players to replace the backup guard.... sometimes a player just makes the team better by being on the team i.e. chemistry.

So they're coming to terms with requiring a platoon to make up for what Lin provided including defense: MKG "elite" defender, Sessions paint scoring,Lamb/Belinelli shot creation/perimeter shooting.

Debatable that more than a handful of PG defenders are "elite" and better, LIn's "failures" were often result of helping others on plays where the defense was inadequate - Clifford not only tolerated Lin's help defense but said it was critical.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1495 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:46 pm

It was a small sample size, but Lin's defensive effort vs the Heat is what intrigued me about bringing him in here.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1496 » by yosemiteben » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:51 pm

reelsgm wrote:So they're coming to terms with requiring a platoon to make up for what Lin provided...

We don't require a platoon, we just happen to have one.

And on the subject of defense, MKG is a far superior perimeter defender (they aren't comparable), and as has been mentioned by several folks in this thread Lin's strength is not guarding PGs.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1497 » by Flip Murray » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:56 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:It was a small sample size, but Lin's defensive effort vs the Heat is what intrigued me about bringing him in here.


He was valuable for us defensively in my opinion. Obviously our system is a factor to consider but his effort will translate no matter what. He's big and he can switch. It's obviously a part of his game he has really worked on over the past few years.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1498 » by Paradise » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:00 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:Frankly it's next to impossible for most of these guys to be able to stay in front of each other at that position.

Rubio is a plus defender in Defensive RAPM and DBPM metrics and he's routinely one of the top 10 leaders in steals

Because he doesn't exert a lot of energy scoring. It's easier to defend at a high level when you aren't looked upon to score. If Rubio was capable of averaging 20-24 per game I guarantee to you that his defensive impact would decline.

Jeremy didn't have to shoulder the offense in Houston with Harden. His defense then became improved. He didn't have to shoulder the offense in Charlotte with Kemba and Batum there so his defense took a bigger step forward.


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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1499 » by Flip Murray » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:06 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
reelsgm wrote:So they're coming to terms with requiring a platoon to make up for what Lin provided...

We don't require a platoon, we just happen to have one.

And on the subject of defense, MKG is a far superior perimeter defender (they aren't comparable), and as has been mentioned by several folks in this thread Lin's strength is not guarding PGs.


Lol I love the drama in that post - "coming to terms" like we've lost a **** pet or family member. Anyways yeah I think most of us pretty much agreed Lin was important to our team but this kind of stuff literally happens with almost every team every year. We didn't have 15 million to give Lin so we have to replace his value in another way. That's the nature of sports with a salary cap.

Also the least of my worries is losing Lin's defense. I have other concerns
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#1500 » by ChokeFasncists » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:07 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:It was a small sample size, but Lin's defensive effort vs the Heat is what intrigued me about bringing him in here.

That was indeed pretty good.

He would get scored on by Wade initially, but be able to play him tough later on.

He guarded JJ pretty well, not a lot of time.

He defended Dragic well, better than Kemba.

The other guys, TJ, JRich, Green, Winslow couldn't score on him much, except when he overhelped usually.

Flip Murray wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:It was a small sample size, but Lin's defensive effort vs the Heat is what intrigued me about bringing him in here.


He was valuable for us defensively in my opinion. Obviously our system is a factor to consider but his effort will translate no matter what. He's big and he can switch. It's obviously a part of his game he has really worked on over the past few years.

Cliff and Silas helped him improve a lot. OTOH, it's not saying much cuz it was MDA, McFail and BS before that. :wink:
MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
Thanks for the honesty.

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