The Official Allen Crabbe Thread

[Antti22]

Prokorov fails to understand that NBA in real life is not like fantasy sports. It is not only about stats and numbers.

[kamaze]

As far as Harris, I'll admit that I was saying he was a scrub. Last year he did not play as well as Crabbe. He shot 42% from the field despite being known as a shooter.

However, he has looked far better these first 3 games. If he keeps this up I'm sure he will get a bigger contact this off season.

That's not a knock on Crabbe. It will just prove Harris is vastly underpaid.

Again, Harris numbers last year are in line/nearly identical to the numbers crabbe posted the year marks paid him on. These are facts not opinions.

Harris is also not really playing any different then he did last year. 8/3/1 in 20ish minutes on 3-4 threes a game. obviously his 3point percentage will be closer to 40% with a higher sample (currently at 57%).

but this isnt some "new" Joe Harris. this is who he was last year and this is who crabbe was when marks paid him

Your delusion knows no bounds and you refuse to look at anything objectively.

You have decided that Joe Harris is as good as Crabbe and nothing in the world will ever change your mind.

I'll post the stats in the thread again so other people in the thread can see how wrong you are. Because obviously you are a lost cause and everyone else on the forum thinks you are wrong.

Allen Crabbe last year

13.7 PPG on 47% shooting and 44% from 3.

He was an extremely efficient on offense and had one of the best 3 point percentages in the entire NBA.

Joe Harris last year

8 PPG on 42% shooting and 39% from 3

So basically he was terribly inefficient on offense and the only think he was asked to do was make wide open shots. Even from 3 he wasn't great. Shooters generally shoot 40+ on 3 pointers. Harris couldn't even do that.

These two are not the same no matter how much you want them to be.

Don't stress about it he's the type to argue the silver is better than the gold medalist.

[kamaze]

Prokorov-Joe Harris is just as good as Allen Crabbe

[Prokorov]

Your delusion knows no bounds and you refuse to look at anything objectively.

Stop projecting. you are the one here not being objective. I've been extremely fair and evidence based. You have not done the same.

You have decided that Joe Harris is as good as Crabbe and nothing in the world will ever change your mind.

I did not decide that. the facts say they are extremely similar through the same stage in their careers, and that their measurable and draft stock and age are near identical. Those are the facts, that isnt something im pulling out of thin air.

it is my opinion that Harris is as good, or potentially better? it is. but this is also something pointed to by the facts.

I'll post the stats in the thread again so other people in the thread can see how wrong you are. Because obviously you are a lost cause and everyone else on the forum thinks you are wrong.

Allen Crabbe last year

13.7 PPG on 47% shooting and 44% from 3.

He was an extremely efficient on offense and had one of the best 3 point percentages in the entire NBA.

Joe Harris last year

8 PPG on 42% shooting and 39% from 3

So basically he was terribly inefficient on offense and the only think he was asked to do was make wide open shots. Even from 3 he wasn't great. Shooters generally shoot 40+ on 3 pointers. Harris couldn't even do that.

These two are not the same no matter how much you want them to be.

Again, your comprehension skills are lacking. last year was Crabbes 4th year. last year was Harris 3rd seasons. if you compare their 3rd seasons (which I did) they are identical.

why is important to compare their 3rd season? 2 important reasons:

1) Crabbes 3rd season was what Marks paid him based on

2) it shows where both were at the same point based on experience

I'm more then willing to have a discussion on this and conceed the things that are opinion based should they be proved wrong this season. You just want to name call and strawman.

[Prokorov]

Prok - I think we've exhausted the Crabbe debate at this point, but below are 2 points I'd clarify that we disagree on that aren't directly related to Crabbe's skills. I'd hope at some point you can just take a small step back and acknowledge that if Crabbe plays the way he has in these first 3 games he's not only worth what he's being paid but that it was a trade on the level of the other 2 dumps. Does he have the long term potential of Russell? Nope. Is it a little riskier than the Carroll deal due to the extra year? Sure. But compared to Carroll he's younger, a better scorer and has more upside. And he got us rid of Nicholson's deal.

OF course we can disagree and revisit once this plays out further.... I could very well be off. It would not be the firs time

First, if there were better trades to make, don't you think Marks would have done them? Second, next summer we'd have the flexibility to make both of the trades you mentioned again if they are available. The DLo trade was basically cap neutral since we dealt Lopez as an impending FA and we will have enough cap room to take a dump the size of Carroll's simply by letting Booker expire. Lin not opting out will reduce some flexibility but even still both he and Carroll will be expiring contracts if there's a team desperate to dump an inflated contract (for example Otto Porter).

That is not really how it works. Trades arent something that are just out there 24/7/365 to evaluate. Take the eric bledsoe situation for instance. that came out of left field, he just tweets he wants out. now i dont think bledsoe is a fit here, but you get my point, you want the flexibility to be able to pounce on the good deals when they become available. like the russell deal. i dont thinks its every smart to drastically overpay a marginal player just because "no one else would come here".

there is no rush to be great and no rush to spend our cap. what is the downside to waiting for a better player or a more reasonable contract?

Again, I partially answered this above but you're idea of 0 flexibility is completely backwards. Lets forget this year because obviously the cap doesn't matter right now with nobody available to sign. They may not even use our DPE. Next June they will be starting with at least $15M in cap space ($80M committed as of now) and $28M in expiring contracts (Lin + Carroll). Crabbe will have 2 years and $37M remaining. Mozgov will have 2 years $33M remaining. Neither of those deals is at all crippling. Again, Lin not opting out certainly makes things a little harder because they won't be able to afford a max without making 1 move (if they even plan to try to offer a max) but I think you are very much overstating the issue with extensions and raises. Those will mostly kick in when Mozgov and Carroll expire.

We will need to extend BOTH RHJ or Russell THIS offseason. if we dont, they both become RFAs and then we will REALLY pay through the nose or potentially have to let them walk.

I think 20-22 million for russell and 14-17M for RHJ (bazemore money) would be the starting points for negotiations for extensions for those guys. Then you need to exten levet the next season/

[Prokorov]

Did you even look at the clip? Oh I get it you're the type that sees what he wants and is too stubborn to admit the sky is blue bc he has shades on. Take them off and you'll see things for what they are not what you want it to be.

of course i watched it. I also watched the game and praised crabbe a ton in the game thread.

I dont see what is so stubborn? I told you my opinion on the trade and provided tons of evidence as to why i believe what i believe. none of us knows the future but through year 3 crabbe and harris are very similar. not just statistically but age, size, combine numbers and where they were drafted (picks 31 and 33 respectively). to think they would still be comporable through their respective 4th years to me does not seem like some off the wall concept.

Anyway it's only a 3 year deal by then the books will be clear and they can use more of the standard route to build the team. Marks had to take on salary and overspend to bring talent in. Wouldn't want to max out their potential before they get their lottery picks back.
In Brooklyn's offense shooting is more valuable than a traditional power forward.

3 years isnt short. especially when it lines up with extensions for all our young players. And you want flexibility for when an opportuniy arises. we capitalized huge on russell because we had the space. id prefer to still have that flexibility vs. having crabbe.

[Prokorov]

No he hasnt. He posted 1 season as an elite shooter (and even then it was huge volume). The year before he was good but not elite (39.3%)

By your own standards you acknowledge Crabbe was an elite shooter for at least 1 year and Joe Harris has at his best been a good but not elite shooter. If you applied your own standards objectively at least.

That is correct. through year 3 neither crabbe nor harris posted an elite shooting season from 3. it is my belief that harris will continue to post similar numbers to crabbe in his respective 4th year. I also think Crabbe will see a drop in shooting perventage with increase volume (this is not a knock on crabbe, that is basically true for all players from three)

As i posted earlier. is it really some crazy concept to think that Harris could go from 38.5% to 42% from three and tha crabbe could go from 44% back to 39.3% with increased volume?

im not saying it will happen, but people are name calling and bashing it like im comparing larry bird to reggie evans

[Prokorov]

Prokorov fails to understand that NBA in real life is not like fantasy sports. It is not only about stats and numbers.

There is a reason that all 30 NBA teams now have an analytics team. stats arent everything, but they are the most reliable thing when evaluating players. at least on offense. defense is tougher to quantify given its more reliant on the other 9 guys on the floor.

[Prokorov]

Prokorov-Joe Harris is just as good as Allen Crabbe

Only I'm not yelling. I've presented my opinions in a pretty clear cut manner. IF you disagree thats fine. but at least ive shown the evidence that has lead to my opinions.

There are several people in this thread calling people names. i am not one of them. those are the ones yelling. not me.

[kamaze]

We're getting away from what we all should be doing praising AC. The first time in years Brooklyn is over .500 and he's a big reason.

Can't wait to see him put up 30 points in a Brooklyn uniform. That jab step one dribble pull up 34 seconds in is deadly.

Watch on YouTube

[MGrand15]

Clearly Crabbe was paid based on potential and projections. We can compare year 3 stats or whatever but it ignores that Harris was lucky enough to play on a team fully committed to his development that gave everyone the green light. Crabbe's wingspan is also 5 inches longer and he appears to be a much better athlete. Not elite but still good. Those are huge factors in projecting how much better both may get moving forward.

It'll be interesting to see what type of offers Harris gets this off season. I think teams see him as more of Anthony Morrow type versus a starter level player. He's definitely trying to prove that notion wrong though. He's been great through preseason and the first few games.

[Ror1997]

The Harris/Crabbe argument won't be settled until years end. Once they each have a year under their belt playing in the same system, the winning argument will reveal itself.

Either Crabbe and Harris are the same players. Or Harris is only comparable Portland Crabbe, and Brooklyn Crabbe is a completely different player.

[Prokorov]

We're getting away from what we all should be doing praising AC. The first time in years Brooklyn is over .500 and he's a big reason.

Can't wait to see him put up 30 points in a Brooklyn uniform. That jab step one dribble pull up 34 seconds in is deadly.

Watch on YouTube

yeah especially since that 30 points wold come with probably 7-10 threes. big scoring games are always better with a barrage from three.

im excited for the game(s) we get white hot from three as a team as well. drop like 20+ threes on someone

[sprost]

Prokorov-Joe Harris is just as good as Allen Crabbe

Only I'm not yelling. I've presented my opinions in a pretty clear cut manner. IF you disagree thats fine. but at least ive shown the evidence that has lead to my opinions.

There are several people in this thread calling people names. i am not one of them. those are the ones yelling. not me.

Agreed... Prok I have disagreed strongly with as a long time Lin fan as underrating Lin and the team overall and tried to have a little fun myself with the crabbe-joeharris analysis, but I find his posts to be about the best on this site backed up with fact and willing to stake out an informed opinion that isn't just parroting conventional wisdom or front office mgmt or hyped take on things

[kamaze]

Prokorov-Joe Harris is just as good as Allen Crabbe

Only I'm not yelling. I've presented my opinions in a pretty clear cut manner. IF you disagree thats fine. but at least ive shown the evidence that has lead to my opinions.

There are several people in this thread calling people names. i am not one of them. those are the ones yelling. not me.

Agreed... Prok I have disagreed strongly with as a long time Lin fan as underrating Lin and the team overall and tried to have a little fun myself with the crabbe-joeharris analysis, but I find his posts to be about the best on this site backed up with fact and willing to stake out an informed opinion that isn't just parroting conventional wisdom or front office mgmt or hyped take on things

Agree to disagree then Hello Brooklyn posted the stats

13.7 PPG on 47% shooting and 44% from 3.

He was an extremely efficient on offense and had one of the best 3 point percentages in the entire NBA.

Joe Harris last year

8 PPG on 42% shooting and 39% from 3

So basically he was terribly inefficient on offense and the only think he was asked to do was make wide open shots. Even from 3 he wasn't great. Shooters generally shoot 40+ on 3 pointers. Harris couldn't even do that.

These two are not the same no matter how much you want them to be.

Prok wants to change the goal posts and compare year 3 stats instead of last year's for some odd reason.

[Prokorov]

Prok wants to change the goal posts and compare year 3 stats instead of last year's for some odd reason.

1) It isnt moving goal posts. I was the one who originally made the argument/comparison. and my stance has not changed.

2) there is not an "odd reason" for comparing year 3 stats. there is a very specific and clear reason for doing so.


-The argument was that Crabbe was vastly overpaid.
-Crabbe was offered that big contract by marks after his third year
-Harris 3rd year is near identical to crabbes 3rd year, the one that earned him that big paycheck

The premise has always been that marks traded for Crabbe when he already had Harris, whom posted the same numbers that marks was willing to pay a ton of money for just 1 year prior. So instead of paying crabbe like an allstar, why not just increase harris minutes/role and keep that cap flexibility.

that premise is supported by facts

the opinion/argument that is yet to be seen was that I feel that Crabbes 44% three point percentage is no sustainable with increased volume and more shooting off the dribble/off motion. And also that with a full season in this offense, and full year of experience, Harris makes another leap forward.

It is not really debateable that Harris produced as well as crabbe did when marks gave him a huge payday. Thats fact.

its is yet to be seen what crabbe does with increased volume or what harris does in his 4th season.

but hey your gifs present a good argument too i guess so who knows

[kamaze]

Watch on YouTube

He starts it off with a steal, starts the fast break, pass to DMC then gets it back for a three pointer.

Spoiler:

A minute in he even assists the Mighty Joe Harris.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Again, your comprehension skills are lacking. last year was Crabbes 4th year. last year was Harris 3rd seasons. if you compare their 3rd seasons (which I did) they are identical.

why is important to compare their 3rd season? 2 important reasons:

1) Crabbes 3rd season was what Marks paid him based on

2) it shows where both were at the same point based on experience

I'm more then willing to have a discussion on this and conceed the things that are opinion based should they be proved wrong this season. You just want to name call and strawman.

LOL even if we compare 3rd year stats they are not the same.

3rd year Allen Crabbe at age 23
10 PPG on 46% shooting

So still pretty efficient for a guard.

3rd year Joe Harris at age 25
8 PPG on 42% shooting

Horrible for a guard.

There is a reason Crabbe was offered a huge contract which was then matched, while Joe Harris was waived by the Cavs.

But again you have no objectivity and not a single Nets fan on this forum thinks you are making a rational argument.

Harris is inefficient, Crabbe is efficient. Its an easy to follow and simple difference.

[Prokorov]

LOL even if we compare 3rd year stats they are not the same.

when yo dont just cherry pick 3 stats.... one of them being age oddly enough then yeah maybe they dont look exact. when you include all their stats they do. It odd you compare FG% but not three point percentage considering both are role playing three ppint shooters.

But again you have no objectivity and not a single Nets fan on this forum thinks you are making a rational argument.

Harris is inefficient, Crabbe is efficient. Its an easy to follow and simple difference.

actually, several posters in this very thread have either agreed with my argument in entirety, partially or at least said that it has merit.

Your comparison is a joke.

Harris

8.2 points | 2.8 rebounds | 1.0 assists | 38.5 % from three 42% from the field in 22 minutes

crabbe

10.3 points | 2.7 rebounds | 1.2 assists | 39.3% from three 46% from the field in 25 minutes

if you normalize their minutes PER36

Harris PER36

13.5 points | 4.7 rebounds | 1.7 assists 38.5 % from three 42% from the field
Crabbe PER36

14.2 points | 3.7 rebounds | 1.7 assists 39.3% from three 46% from the field


The only really difference if FG%... but harris took a higher volume of threes. the only other factor from your "stats" is age. which again is decieving. it looks like 2 years but it really isnt. NBA lists ages based on the start of the season. harris is born in september and Crabbe in april.

They are only 6 months apart.

Joe harris september 1991. Crabbe April of 1992.

Harris is 26 years
crabbe is 25 years and 6 months old

There is a reason Crabbe was offered a huge contract which was then matched

Yes there is... because Marks was desperate to find a wing and was deadset on overpaying one (See: kent bazemore)

as far as "matching" portland seemed to isntantly regret the deal. trading crabbe less then a year into the deal.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I'm only comparing ages because you wanted to compare Harris's last year to Crabbe from 2 years ago.

Crabbe last year was WAY BETTER than Harris. And since you're so obsessed with 3 point percentage, Crabbe shot 44% from 3 last year which was one of the best in the NBA.

There was no comparison between Crabbe and Harris last year. You're trying to bring in Crabbe from 2 years ago which makes no sense.

Let's look at Harris's stats from 2 years ago:
.6 PGG on 25% shooting.

LMAO. Trash.