2017 Nets Offseason Thread III

[Prokorov]

Russells potential role changed the second we added crabbe... crabbe has to start. Last year marks/kenny had more freedom... all the young guys were low salary. now, Crabbe is 25 and our highest paid player.... this is the first time there will really be any urgency/pressure to develop someone... and you can tell by their quotes:

"There is a limit to how much dead money you can take," Sean Marks said. "You end up with a roster of 21-year-olds and dead salary."

"We need to show progress," Kenny Atkinson said, "out of respect for ownership."

"If you sign the wrong guy to $15 million or $20 million," Marks said before the Crabbe deal, "they might become untradeable."

They know they need to develop crabbe big time... that if crabbe doesnt pan out it could be a tough situation that looks really bad.

not saying they throw everything out the window... but there is no way crabbe sits or doesnt lead us in minutes. it is imperative that he develop into a fringe all-star.

Russell obviously plays a huge role as well. but at 22 and with lin still here he can come off the bench in a 28 minute role for a season. Crabbe turns 26 this season and makes 19 million and will be the most under the radar player from ownership/fans/media all year

[MrDollarBills]

Crabbe imo has nothing to do with Russell's role changing. He (Russell) is the best player on the team, doesn't matter if Crabbe makes the most money. You're not going to delay the development and potential of Russell just because Crabbe is overpaid.

The onus is on Crabbe to go out there and prove that he can defend his position and be a starter. That's the issue. Because a Russell/Lin backcourt you're not worried about defense since Lin can always take on the tougher assignment. Can Crabbe step up and play respectable defense against small forwards?

Russell is on an upward trajectory at age 21...15 4 and 5 last year isn't sitting bench because Allen Crabbe needs to earn his check.

[Prokorov]

Crabbe imo has nothing to do with Russell's role changing. He (Russell) is the best player on the team, doesn't matter if Crabbe makes the most money. You're not going to delay the development and potential of Russell just because Crabbe is overpaid.

The onus is on Crabbe to go out there and prove that he can defend his position and be a starter. That's the issue. Because a Russell/Lin backcourt you're not worried about defense since Lin can always take on the tougher assignment. Can Crabbe step up and play respectable defense against small forwards?

Russell is on an upward trajectory at age 21...15 4 and 5 last year isn't sitting bench because Allen Crabbe needs to earn his check.

I'm going to disagree that Crabbe doesnt change things... i posed the question last week asking if this would in fact change things and i think the comments from marks/kenny since the presser from the trade kind of confirm that. they know the investment in this guy and know there is pressure to improve him...

now i dont think that means russell sits, i think it means 1 less spot open for him. i dont see any scenario were crabbe sits unless he got injured (knock on wood).

i think russell would need to start over levert or lin... i also don think they do something drastic to hinder his development... i think he certainly sees 28 minutes either way and closes games. But Crabbe i think starts and leads us in minutes

[kamaze]

This year Kenny has to incorporate new players.
Russell has to get better defensively, DMC to prove he still has gas in the tank. Only Mozgov can say he'll get pt for sure and that's because he's the only legit 7 footer with experience on the roster.

Everyone will have to earn their playing time.

[kamaze]

And Crabbe grows from a bench role as a perimeter threat to whatever he will become.
Its going to be an exciting season!

[Hello Brooklyn]

To play devil's advocate, Mark's strategy could completely backfire.

Lets say Russell/LeVert/Allen don't pan out. And we end up being a bad team tied up to bad salaries.

It will look completely foolish.

We would basically have spent all our assets and cap space to take on young players none of whom are true blue chip prospects.

The other strategy was to try and be competitive before blowing it up to tank in 2019.

[Paradise]

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[Karate Diop]

Crabbe imo has nothing to do with Russell's role changing. He (Russell) is the best player on the team, doesn't matter if Crabbe makes the most money. You're not going to delay the development and potential of Russell just because Crabbe is overpaid.

The onus is on Crabbe to go out there and prove that he can defend his position and be a starter. That's the issue. Because a Russell/Lin backcourt you're not worried about defense since Lin can always take on the tougher assignment. Can Crabbe step up and play respectable defense against small forwards?

Russell is on an upward trajectory at age 21...15 4 and 5 last year isn't sitting bench because Allen Crabbe needs to earn his check.

I'm going to disagree that Crabbe doesnt change things... i posed the question last week asking if this would in fact change things and i think the comments from marks/kenny since the presser from the trade kind of confirm that. they know the investment in this guy and know there is pressure to improve him...

now i dont think that means russell sits, i think it means 1 less spot open for him. i dont see any scenario were crabbe sits unless he got injured (knock on wood).

i think russell would need to start over levert or lin... i also don think they do something drastic to hinder his development... i think he certainly sees 28 minutes either way and closes games. But Crabbe i think starts and leads us in minutes

I'm in agreement. I think Crabbe has to start. The Nets wouldn't have offered him the contract they did just to have him play the same role he did on the Blazers.

Like he did for the Blazers I expect Crabbe to log the majority of his minutes at SF - while Lin and Russell are the backcourt starters (at least to begin the year).

LeVert has true combo guard skills and can fill a bunch of different roles for the team so I anticipate him coming off the bench until the Nets make a determination on what position they think Russell is best at.

[Vae Victus]

To play devil's advocate, Mark's strategy could completely backfire.

Lets say Russell/LeVert/Allen don't pan out. And we end up being a bad team tied up to bad salaries.

It will look completely foolish.

We would basically have spent all our assets and cap space to take on young players none of whom are true blue chip prospects.

The other strategy was to try and be competitive before blowing it up to tank in 2019.

Define "dont pan out", cuz Levert looks like he can at least be a decent playmaking wing role player who can defend. Allen jury is out of course. Those two guys even if they go el busto were only #22ish late 1st round picks, players drafted around there bust all the time. Getting just ONE decent rotation player from that range is considered a good job by a FO. Losing Thad and Bojan really didnt mean anything and Nicholson's **** contract was dumped in the Crabbe deal.

DLo "busting" at this point i guess means not turn into a superstar/all-star. So lets say he doesnt improve his stats, his defense remains bad, and he doesnt convert successfully to PG. Well at least he'd be a scoring SG who the team has control of via RFA, prolly can be retained for cheap due to his reputation and lack of improvement over the next 2 years. This is a bitter pill to swallow as it came with the Mozgov cap clogger deal and losing the BOS pick which turned into Kuzma (who has looked good so far as a versatile stretch 4).

Prolly should include Crabbe busting as well in not improving at all from his POR days despite increased usage and responsibility.

If such a case happens and the team is basically a mid 20 wins loser squad, then Lin opts, and the squad goes all in on the 2019 tankathon. When 2019 rolls around Carroll is off the books, Crabbe might opt out (if only to secure a long term deal from anywhere), Mozgov only has 1 year left and thus stretching him provides alot of cap space, DWill's payments should be over to by then, thus the cap is now clean and the team finally controls its own destiny.

The team sucking is an easy path to plan moving forward. The REAL fun is what if the team overperforms and wins 40 games... wtf does the franchise do then?

[MrDollarBills]

Crabbe imo has nothing to do with Russell's role changing. He (Russell) is the best player on the team, doesn't matter if Crabbe makes the most money. You're not going to delay the development and potential of Russell just because Crabbe is overpaid.

The onus is on Crabbe to go out there and prove that he can defend his position and be a starter. That's the issue. Because a Russell/Lin backcourt you're not worried about defense since Lin can always take on the tougher assignment. Can Crabbe step up and play respectable defense against small forwards?

Russell is on an upward trajectory at age 21...15 4 and 5 last year isn't sitting bench because Allen Crabbe needs to earn his check.

I'm going to disagree that Crabbe doesnt change things... i posed the question last week asking if this would in fact change things and i think the comments from marks/kenny since the presser from the trade kind of confirm that. they know the investment in this guy and know there is pressure to improve him...

now i dont think that means russell sits, i think it means 1 less spot open for him. i dont see any scenario were crabbe sits unless he got injured (knock on wood).

i think russell would need to start over levert or lin... i also don think they do something drastic to hinder his development... i think he certainly sees 28 minutes either way and closes games. But Crabbe i think starts and leads us in minutes

I agree with you about the investment cost and the pressure to make this guy develop into the level of player that he's being paid at. But, I think Crabbe changes things more for LeVert than anything. We had him pegged at SF. Crabbe is announced to be new SF.

So in theory:

Lin, Russell, Crabbe, RHJ, Mozgov starts. Lin takes the tougher backcourt match up defensively (unless Russell can prove he can defend/play good team D). Crabbe is going to find himself in trouble in a few match ups and he might have to switch on defense with RHJ. Crabbe imo needs to be pushed to defend his position. He's got length...I think he needs to embrace the challenge. Not worried at all about Mozgov.

LeVert will play time and the second ball handler in the backcourt (SG) and time at SF. Carroll plays time at back up SF and stretch 4. Probably toss Whitehead in at combo guard.

Minutes wise, the person who probably is going to get stunted is Whitehead. But then again, I can see Kenny running a Dinwiddie/Whitehead/LeVert/Carroll/Booker small ball 2nd unit that switches on everything and keeps the offensive continuity going with Dinwiddie, LeVert, Whitehead, and Carroll all capable of hitting threes (whitehead/levert obv needs to improve their 3pt %'s but I think that won't be an impossible task in year 2).

This doesn't take into account Kilpatrick, Harris, Acy, Allen, or the idea that the Nets are still looking to acquire a frontcourt player.

[Ror1997]

We were going to give Reddick 26 million to come off the bench even after the DLo trade. Reddick himself confirmed his salary wouldn't of guaranteed playing time (thus he didn't sign)

Crabbe's contract isn't going to dictate his playing time. There is no counter argument.

[MrDollarBills]

To play devil's advocate, Mark's strategy could completely backfire.

Lets say Russell/LeVert/Allen don't pan out. And we end up being a bad team tied up to bad salaries.

It will look completely foolish.

We would basically have spent all our assets and cap space to take on young players none of whom are true blue chip prospects.

The other strategy was to try and be competitive before blowing it up to tank in 2019.

I'm not sure I follow...where did we spend all of our assets? Cap space only becomes an issue if this plan really works and we have to pay out the ass to retain our players.

Either this works, and we will have to start paying guys, or it doesn't, we cut bait and we are in control of our picks.

I don't think this plan will fail at all. All of these young guys have solid upside and are in an environment where their development is the only thing that matters.

[MrDollarBills]

We were going to give Reddick 26 million to come off the bench even after the DLo trade. Reddick himself confirmed his salary wouldn't of guaranteed playing time (thus he didn't sign)

Crabbe's contract isn't going to dictate his playing time. There is no counter argument.

I think Crabbe's contract will dictate the overall investment in his development. Which means working with the staff on things to expand his game on both ends, and on the court, playing plenty of minutes and testing himself against starter caliber players.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Ok guys, just remember that I'm just providing an alternative viewpoint. I've stated multiple fans that I'm a huge fan on what Marks is doing.

With that being said, we did take on multiple bad contracts for draft picks and young players, none of whom are likely to be franchise players.

The jury is still out on Russell, but we really have no idea if he can become an all star level player.

We also chose not to use our cap space on free agents to try and be competitive in the short while consciously deciding that the Boston picks were a "sunk cost" and we were fine with being a horrible team and giving multiple top 5 picks to the Celtics.

All because we wanted to focus entirely on developing young players, none of whom are likely to be franchise changing.

Its conceivable that we become a 30ish win team for the next few years and then are forced on spending our remaining cap space on RHJ and Russell.

Then we end up being committed to that core without any real way of improving and Mark's rebuild ends up being a failure.

[kamaze]

Who knows what will happen in the future; not even Marks does; Im just feening for some bball!

[treiz]

Ok guys, just remember that I'm just providing an alternative viewpoint. I've stated multiple fans that I'm a huge fan on what Marks is doing.

With that being said, we did take on multiple bad contracts for draft picks and young players, none of whom are likely to be franchise players.

The jury is still out on Russell, but we really have no idea if he can become an all star level player.

We also chose not to use our cap space on free agents to try and be competitive in the short while consciously deciding that the Boston picks were a "sunk cost" and we were fine with being a horrible team and giving multiple top 5 picks to the Celtics.

All because we wanted to focus entirely on developing young players, none of whom are likely to be franchise changing.

Its conceivable that we become a 30ish win team for the next few years and then are forced on spending our remaining cap space on RHJ and Russell.

Then we end up being committed to that core without any real way of improving and Mark's rebuild ends up being a failure.

It's a very fair viewpoint and one that has a decent chance of happening.

But towards the end of this post, we probably are going to be a 30ish win team, certainly this year and next, and by the 2020 season the contracts of Russ and RHJ would expire should we choose not to extend them and Levert would have a team option. I think it's a fair assumption Marks won't commit huge money on guys if they don't show development in 2 years, think he's stern enough to cut them loose if need be if they don't come back for cheaper than their market value, especially if we have to go on another rebuild.

The good news is, if we suck for the 2019 season (again I think it's very likely), at least we would have our pick back to pick in the high lottery at least (this was mentioned in that Lowe article), so we're not really committed to a core that can't improve, as we would have draft picks to rebuild/improve from as well as cap space with the deals of Carroll/Mozgov/Crabbe/Lin being off the books by 2020.

[kamaze]

Ok guys, just remember that I'm just providing an alternative viewpoint. I've stated multiple fans that I'm a huge fan on what Marks is doing.

With that being said, we did take on multiple bad contracts for draft picks and young players, none of whom are likely to be franchise players.

The jury is still out on Russell, but we really have no idea if he can become an all star level player.

We also chose not to use our cap space on free agents to try and be competitive in the short while consciously deciding that the Boston picks were a "sunk cost" and we were fine with being a horrible team and giving multiple top 5 picks to the Celtics.

All because we wanted to focus entirely on developing young players, none of whom are likely to be franchise changing.

Its conceivable that we become a 30ish win team for the next few years and then are forced on spending our remaining cap space on RHJ and Russell.

Then we end up being committed to that core without any real way of improving and Mark's rebuild ends up being a failure.

It's a very fair viewpoint and one that has a decent chance of happening.

But towards the end of this post, we probably are going to be a 30ish win team, certainly this year and next, and by the 2020 season the contracts of Russ and RHJ would expire should we choose not to extend them and Levert would have a team option. I think it's a fair assumption Marks won't commit huge money on guys if they don't show development in 2 years, think he's stern enough to cut them loose if need be if they don't come back for cheaper than their market value, especially if we have to go on another rebuild.

The good news is, if we suck for the 2019 season (again I think it's very likely), at least we would have our pick back to pick in the high lottery at least (this was mentioned in that Lowe article), so we're not really committed to a core that can't improve, as we would have draft picks to rebuild/improve from as well as cap space with the deals of Carroll/Mozgov/Crabbe/Lin being off the books by 2020.

That part.

[Roy Tarpley]

Nets signed Doyle and Senglin to training camp deals.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Who knows what will happen in the future; not even Marks does; Im just feening for some bball!

Lol its the middle of the off season bro.

This is the time to discuss random hypotheticals as far as I'm concerned.

[Curns13]

Crabbe imo has nothing to do with Russell's role changing. He (Russell) is the best player on the team, doesn't matter if Crabbe makes the most money. You're not going to delay the development and potential of Russell just because Crabbe is overpaid.

The onus is on Crabbe to go out there and prove that he can defend his position and be a starter. That's the issue. Because a Russell/Lin backcourt you're not worried about defense since Lin can always take on the tougher assignment. Can Crabbe step up and play respectable defense against small forwards?

Russell is on an upward trajectory at age 21...15 4 and 5 last year isn't sitting bench because Allen Crabbe needs to earn his check.

I'm going to disagree that Crabbe doesnt change things... i posed the question last week asking if this would in fact change things and i think the comments from marks/kenny since the presser from the trade kind of confirm that. they know the investment in this guy and know there is pressure to improve him...

now i dont think that means russell sits, i think it means 1 less spot open for him. i dont see any scenario were crabbe sits unless he got injured (knock on wood).

i think russell would need to start over levert or lin... i also don think they do something drastic to hinder his development... i think he certainly sees 28 minutes either way and closes games. But Crabbe i think starts and leads us in minutes

I agree with you about the investment cost and the pressure to make this guy develop into the level of player that he's being paid at. But, I think Crabbe changes things more for LeVert than anything. We had him pegged at SF. Crabbe is announced to be new SF.

So in theory:

Lin, Russell, Crabbe, RHJ, Mozgov starts. Lin takes the tougher backcourt match up defensively (unless Russell can prove he can defend/play good team D). Crabbe is going to find himself in trouble in a few match ups and he might have to switch on defense with RHJ. Crabbe imo needs to be pushed to defend his position. He's got length...I think he needs to embrace the challenge. Not worried at all about Mozgov.

LeVert will play time and the second ball handler in the backcourt (SG) and time at SF. Carroll plays time at back up SF and stretch 4. Probably toss Whitehead in at combo guard.

Minutes wise, the person who probably is going to get stunted is Whitehead. But then again, I can see Kenny running a Dinwiddie/Whitehead/LeVert/Carroll/Booker small ball 2nd unit that switches on everything and keeps the offensive continuity going with Dinwiddie, LeVert, Whitehead, and Carroll all capable of hitting threes (whitehead/levert obv needs to improve their 3pt %'s but I think that won't be an impossible task in year 2).

This doesn't take into account Kilpatrick, Harris, Acy, Allen, or the idea that the Nets are still looking to acquire a frontcourt player.

I think our development priorities go:
1. Dlo
2. Caris
3. Allen and Crabbe
4. RHJ and Whitehead
5. Everybody else

I think Caris comingb off the bench will be awesome for his development. He'll get to be THE guy on our bench squad, all offense will go through him. He would be the 3rd option as a starter, so I think this will be awesome experience for him. Long term he is the 2. Having Dlo and Caris play the 2 and backup 2 now gives them time to develop until they become the starting 1 and 2 in a season on twos time.