Hello Brooklyn wrote:DarkXaero wrote:Hello Brooklyn wrote:The problem with Holiday again the contract issue.
Are comfortable giving a 31 year old injury prone PG a max contract next off season?
I personally don't think paying a non-All Star 30 mill+ is ever a smart move. Especially when they are older and have knee issues.
There's also the very real possibility that he just leaves in free agency.
We all agree that we need major defensive help. Why not just try to pursue great defensive wing players through the draft/MLE/smaller trade.
Why give up our main assets to sink it all into Jrue who will be a poor long term investment?
Even Zach Lowe Arnowitz said they probably would not trade Levert for Holiday because of his offensive abilities.
I think labeling Jrue Holiday as "injury prone" at this point is a bit unfair and inaccurate. The guy used to be very injury prone, but he has stayed relatively healthy, especially these past 3 years despite playing heavy minutes. Being 30 or 31 isn't a death sentence in this league. Our #1 guy will be 32 next season coming off an achilles injury, yet we still expect him to be good.
He is an all star caliber player, I don't care about the actual selection, we're talking his impact here. He's an elite defender in the league with an above average offensive skillset, and his impact on the floor has consistently been rated highly by advanced metrics.
I don't see the draft as an answer to our problems at all. As it stands, we have the 19th pick in a weak draft, and assuming that a rookie can come in and help out a contender, especially in the playoffs, its a massive ask. Can it happen? Sure. OKC signed undrafted Dort this season, and he played excellent defense on Harden. But that's a rare example. Most of the times, even when rookies excel in regular season, in playoffs, they become non factors. Smaller trade and MLE are valid options, but you aren't going to get a player of Jrue's caliber defense through that. Also, I'd like to hear what those options (not trying to be combative, its a genuine question).
No indication that Jrue would be a "poor long term investment". Ultimately, Marks makes the move (if he does), and I trust his judgment. NBA GMs, especially Marks, aren't stupid and they'll do all their due diligence (injury concerns, pending free agency, etc.) before greenlighting a trade.
I listened to that Lowe/Arnovitz podcast and they never said that from my memory. It was a question they weren't able to answer, they said that they would need more information before making that decision. Also, one doesn't have to automatically assume that it would be Levert getting traded for Jrue.
I don't think its inaccurate at all. Holiday has a history of serious injuries, which tend to get worse as smaller guards get older. Its not the main factor here but its definitely relevant.
I don't think hes an All Star caliber player at all. Hes very good/elite offensively (I've actually changed my mind on him after so many players have praised his defense.) But hes good offensively, not great. Undersized, not a great shooter, passer or finisher. There is nothing he does offensively at an elite level. To me he has never shown he can be All Star level player. And he certainly not worth 30 mill.
This is a "weak draft" but you're thinking about it incorrectly. Its a weak draft in terms of there not being any high level talent. Its not a weak draft in terms of its depth. Theres actually a lot of good role player. KOC went in depth about this during one of his podcasts with Vernon.
Is that the probable answer? No. But its one of the three options I suggested to find defensive help along with Free Agency and a smaller trade. I'm still looking to flip Allen for a defensive wing. Someone who I think could better help guard players like Tatum or Kawhi than Holiday could.
Paying 30 million to a non-All Star 31 year old guard is objectively a bad contract. Its generally not a smart idea to give anyone that unless they are sure fire All Stars for multiple years. Especially when you already have 60 mill tied up in two other max players. We are basically hampering all flexibility into three massive contracts for the remaining two years of KD/Kyrie's tenure.
They didn't directly say it. But they were basically saying that they would lean towards not doing it. I think it would be very tough to trade for Holiday w/o Levert. They can get better offers elsewhere.
IIrc, 2 of those seasons with big chunks of games missing in New Orleans were due to his wife having a brain tumor and him being by her side, with the obvious blessing of the Pelicans organization.
He's also been an elite level finisher the last 4 seasons.
He is only undersized in height and with the NBA going to real barefoot measures this year, him being a legit 6'3.5' barefoot actually brings him right in line with a ton of the upper echelon 2 guards in this league and he has great length.
Defense in a small trade or free agency is nice and even if you get Jrue, you still add that. But what's really nice is being able to throw a guy out there for 40 minutes in a playoff game who is top of the league defensively and still nicely above average on offense, on or off-ball. You can't play 6 on 5. And you want Harris out there with Kyrie and KD. You're going to go small with KD at the 5 in most pressure situations deep into the playoffs anyway. And Jrue is high BBIQ on both ends, so you're not throwing out some mindless chucker either.
You seem to get hung up on the term All Star. There have been a lot of fugazi All Stars over the years, where guys who were bonafied All Star level got snubbed. All Star is a label. He's an All NBA Defensive Team guy, who is well above average as a jack of all trades offensive player and elite finisher.
You love Marcus Smart and hell, I am beginning to as well and have always liked him. And I get he's younger and has the better contract, but A, the Celtics are not trading him to us, and B, Jrue is the equal defender, has better height and length(but a little less mass, admittedly) and is world's ahead as a scorer and an equal playmaker. Like I love Smart and the idea of him here, but he's a wildly inefficient scorer and a average shooter as well, but you never mention that.
The bottom line is, depending on cost and what he agrees to on opting in, or a contract extension, Jrue is one of the more likely available players who makes a lot of sense here. I actually share your concerns about his long term outlook, but I believe he's in peak physical shape to give 2 more seasons of elite D and this same level of overall play and another season of really good, top notch play and effort. His deal probably wouldn't be more than 4 total seasons, I'd be fine if we had to eat a year of expensive, expiring average and older Jrue to get those first 3 years of what he is.
As others have said, no matter how Marks ultimately shapes this roster, we're going to be in luxury tax hell for the next 3 to 5 years. So honestly, who cares what he's paid?
If you're looking at it, in the sense of let's see who the next player coming down the pipe is by the '21 summer, so let's not blow our assets on Jrue, I can dig it to an extent. But unless it's literally like Giannis, I don't see many players who fit better then Jrue becoming available within a year.
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