Moderators: Rich Rane, NyCeEvO
steady wrote:it's a balance in my opinion. And I would say so far we have seen Atkinson walk that line.
Lin is not a player trying to post huge stats, he's a player who cares about winning. I would say the same for a lot of players on the team. Atkinson knows that.
And he knows if it became all about developing the youngsters, that motivation would drop off, and they wouldn't play as hard.
Jimmyftw wrote:
They won't have to sacrifice development to winning because if this is a 25 wins team naturally, like you said, there should be more then enough opportunities for development in blowout games. And if this team exceed your expectation and goes 35 wins then that is great as well since it means they will have a good chance for playoff next season. There is really no reason you have to choose between playing your hardest and developing young guys.
In the next 7 games hopefully the Nets can steal the win against the Sun, Laker and maybe Timberwovles without Jeremy Lin and we won't go into full on tank mode (which is what you want to do apparently before the Nets even play 10 games healthy and already have a decent record of 2-3).
steady wrote:Fri, Nov 4 Charlotte
Tue, Nov 8 Timberwolves
Wed, Nov 9 Knicks (at MSG)
Sat, Nov 12 Suns (at Phx)
Mon, Nov 14 Clippers (at LA)
Tue, Nov 15 Lakers (at LA)
Fri, Nov 18 OKC (back at Barclays)
Prokorov wrote: thats not what we are doing. we are not putting value on wins. thats different then actively trying to lose. for us its about culture and development. its not about wins. i realize most guys here are lin fans and no nets fans but you need to face the reality that for those with the nets best interest in mind(like marks and atkinson) that winning is probably not even secondary for them this year but 3rd or 4th on the list of priorities.
reelsgm wrote:If it was Steve Clifford as the coach, he'd have Lin back on the floor in 2 days and Lin would have hobbled out there (and did many times). Lin wants to play and apart from his meniscus tear he's never taken anywhere near 2 weeks for his ankles or chest contusion.
Lin's a fast healer who uses both traditional Chinese medicine and modern sports therapy; it's up to Lin to convince the Med staff and Kenny - my prediction is Lin will be back on the floor in 7-8 days.
hood30 wrote:If some long time Net fans are right that winning means nothing for them this year and it's all about development, than it make perfect sense to not be in an hurry to get Lin back on the court as soon as possible...Thus the 2 weeks time simply to re-evaluate his injury.
Kenny truly believe in his ability to develop young guys and my sense is he's probably a bit over his head and overconfident in his ability, specially when we're talking about C and D lever prospects with low-potential ceilings....
I've always felt that Kenny gets way too much credit for Linsanity and this may be the reason why he's giving guys who should be in the D-league extended minutes in the NBA..He truly believe Linsanity was all him..Of course, that is crazy....Problem is, Lin was really not a C-level prospect..Lin was simply hurt by his Asian heritage and this is why no one felt the need to invest in his development.
Even D'antoni gets way too much credit....D'antoni simply had no choice but to play Lin..It's like God saw the injustice and forced Mike's hand in giving Lin the time by making sure all their PG got hurt and couldn't play......At the time, all Lin needed is a chance to play extended minutes...D'antoni system of heavy PnR just happened to fit Lin's game perfectly
Unlike RHJ, Lin wasn't a very raw prospect with terrible basic fundamentals and feel for the game..I think Lin Asian heritage was the main reason why no team were willing to invest in his development..They just couldn't imagine an Asian player could even become a NBA bench player, unless he had the size of Yao Ming.
Lin also had a very good summer league and actually outplayed John Wall during their match up...So Lin had the skill-set and everything...all he needed is extended time by a team willing to invest in his development like the Nets are doing with Whitehead and even RHJ...Instead, Lin was forced to go down to D-League and he dominated there..But still, many team just didn't think he was worth trying to develop until Linsanity happen, which was a miracle...All Lin got was 15 day contracts.
Nothing less than Linsanity would had kept Lin in the NBA..Yet, we see so many young guys with very low potential get extended amount of minutes and time, but yet, we're not seeing them explode like Lin did when he got his shot.
MrDollarBills wrote:hood30 wrote:If some long time Net fans are right that winning means nothing for them this year and it's all about development, than it make perfect sense to not be in an hurry to get Lin back on the court as soon as possible...Thus the 2 weeks time simply to re-evaluate his injury.
Kenny truly believe in his ability to develop young guys and my sense is he's probably a bit over his head and overconfident in his ability, specially when we're talking about C and D lever prospects with low-potential ceilings....
I've always felt that Kenny gets way too much credit for Linsanity and this may be the reason why he's giving guys who should be in the D-league extended minutes in the NBA..He truly believe Linsanity was all him..Of course, that is crazy....Problem is, Lin was really not a C-level prospect..Lin was simply hurt by his Asian heritage and this is why no one felt the need to invest in his development.
Even D'antoni gets way too much credit....D'antoni simply had no choice but to play Lin..It's like God saw the injustice and forced Mike's hand in giving Lin the time by making sure all their PG got hurt and couldn't play......At the time, all Lin needed is a chance to play extended minutes...D'antoni system of heavy PnR just happened to fit Lin's game perfectly
Unlike RHJ, Lin wasn't a very raw prospect with terrible basic fundamentals and feel for the game..I think Lin Asian heritage was the main reason why no team were willing to invest in his development..They just couldn't imagine an Asian player could even become a NBA bench player, unless he had the size of Yao Ming.
Lin also had a very good summer league and actually outplayed John Wall during their match up...So Lin had the skill-set and everything...all he needed is extended time by a team willing to invest in his development like the Nets are doing with Whitehead and even RHJ...Instead, Lin was forced to go down to D-League and he dominated there..But still, many team just didn't think he was worth trying to develop until Linsanity happen, which was a miracle...All Lin got was 15 day contracts.
Nothing less than Linsanity would had kept Lin in the NBA..Yet, we see so many young guys with very low potential get extended amount of minutes and time, but yet, we're not seeing them explode like Lin did when he got his shot.
Lin had to earn his place in the league like hundreds of other players before him who didn't get a fair shot or were doubted as well. His story isn't exactly rare, other than the fact that you make everything about his ethnicity.
Sean Kilpatrick was never given a fair shot either to show what he can really do until he landed with us. It happens.
But the stuff you're talking about with Atkinson and overconfidence is pure conjecture. You want to know why the Nets may keep him out two weeks? Because soft tissue injuries have a habit of reoccurring is not healed properly. It has nothing to do with an agenda to develop other players and its all about getting Lin healed right before pushing him into action.
The world is not out to get Jeremy Lin, but the way some of his fans go on about it, you'd swear that was the case. It's too bad, because I think the Nets have found a home for a good basketball player who competes and is a good guy on and off the floor, which is what we've needed around here for years, but the moment something goes wrong we'll have to read conspiracy theories and veiled slights towards the team and other teammates from his fanbase.
RHJ was drafted in 1st round of the NBA because of his physical attributes and defensive abilities. He has the potential when he puts things together to be a very good player. He's not the first player to be drafted who was raw but had upside, and Lin wasn't the first player to ever have to toil in the d league before getting his shot. Stop making him out to be some victim.
bws94 wrote:I don't agree Cliff should start Lin with the starting lineup stuff. Why? Lin was one of the most effective guards in the league off the bench. Playing with Kemba and Batum and Al or Cody, all of them, is a waste of his offense. In a closing lineup, fine, but as starter? It makes no sense. Who is going to run and organize the bench in that case? You don't need to have all of your offense in the starting lineup. That's folly. Almost every good starting lineup have guys serving a role, a 3 and D guy, a rebounder, a tough inside presence, a defensive specialist, you name it. Starter doesn't mean put it your most talented players, it means put in the playing group that makes the most sense. There are two guys or so that usually have the ball more. Even in motion offenses, there's someone directing it and a center the ball goes through.
Cliff thought Lin of the bench made the team stronger. And that's what he cared about. The team. And that team did well. When Batum wasn't in, Lin started. But Lin and Batum and Kemba is overkill to start a game. One of those three won't get as many touches to keep them in the flow, and often it was Lin.
Let's move on from this. Lin starts now and was off to a good start. He's showing himself to be a good leader. Now, he's part of the team of vets, actually the team's leader per Kilpatrick and Lopez, that will build the culture on this Nets team.
As for Lin's race benefits or disadvantages, we've talked it to death. And really, on a dedicated Lin forum it's fine. Not here. Here should be about him as a Net and anything in the past, showing what he has done that he can do to benefit the Nets.
hood30 wrote:reelsgm wrote:If it was Steve Clifford as the coach, he'd have Lin back on the floor in 2 days and Lin would have hobbled out there (and did many times). Lin wants to play and apart from his meniscus tear he's never taken anywhere near 2 weeks for his ankles or chest contusion.
Lin's a fast healer who uses both traditional Chinese medicine and modern sports therapy; it's up to Lin to convince the Med staff and Kenny - my prediction is Lin will be back on the floor in 7-8 days.
My sense is that even if Lin were to recover qkuicker than expected, the Nets will must likely force him to sit for another week just to use this time to develop and give additional minutes to Whitehead for development purposes.
Also, since the Nets will be short on healthy players, Yogi may be called up..Maybe not if Foye is back soon....Kenny is very excited about trying to develop these c-level prospects, and I wouldn't be surprised if an healthy Lin was forced to sit for additional weeks just for the sick of development.
If some long time Net fans are right that winning means nothing for them this year and it's all about development, than it make perfect sense to not be in an hurry to get Lin back on the court as soon as possible...Thus the 2 weeks time simply to re-evaluate his injury.
Kenny truly believe in his ability to develop young guys and my sense is he's probably a bit over his head and overconfident in his ability, specially when we're talking about C and D lever prospects with low-potential ceilings....
I've always felt that Kenny gets way too much credit for Linsanity and this may be the reason why he's giving guys who should be in the D-league extended minutes in the NBA..Maybe he believe Linsanity was all him..Of course, that is crazy....Problem is, Lin was really not a C-level prospect..Lin was simply hurt by his Asian heritage and this is why no one felt the need to invest in his development.
Even D'antoni gets way too much credit....D'antoni simply had no choice but to play Lin..It's like God saw the injustice and forced Mike's hand in giving Lin the time by making sure all their PG got hurt and couldn't play......At the time, all Lin needed is a chance to play extended minutes...D'antoni system of heavy PnR just happened to fit Lin's game perfectly
Unlike RHJ, Lin wasn't a very raw prospect with terrible basic fundamentals and feel for the game..I think Lin Asian heritage was the main reason why no team were willing to invest in his development..They just couldn't imagine an Asian player could even become a NBA bench player, unless he had the size of Yao Ming.
Lin also had a very good summer league and actually outplayed John Wall during their match up...So Lin had the skill-set and everything...all he needed is extended time by a team willing to invest in his development like the Nets are doing with Whitehead and even RHJ...Instead, Lin was forced to go down to D-League and he dominated there..But still, many team just didn't think he was worth trying to develop until Linsanity happen, which was a miracle...All Lin got was 15 day contracts.
Nothing less than Linsanity would had kept Lin in the NBA..Yet, we see so many young guys with very low potential get extended amount of minutes and time, but yet, we're not seeing them explode like Lin did when he got his shot.
MGrand15 wrote:hood30 wrote:reelsgm wrote:If it was Steve Clifford as the coach, he'd have Lin back on the floor in 2 days and Lin would have hobbled out there (and did many times). Lin wants to play and apart from his meniscus tear he's never taken anywhere near 2 weeks for his ankles or chest contusion.
Lin's a fast healer who uses both traditional Chinese medicine and modern sports therapy; it's up to Lin to convince the Med staff and Kenny - my prediction is Lin will be back on the floor in 7-8 days.
My sense is that even if Lin were to recover qkuicker than expected, the Nets will must likely force him to sit for another week just to use this time to develop and give additional minutes to Whitehead for development purposes.
Also, since the Nets will be short on healthy players, Yogi may be called up..Maybe not if Foye is back soon....Kenny is very excited about trying to develop these c-level prospects, and I wouldn't be surprised if an healthy Lin was forced to sit for additional weeks just for the sick of development.
If some long time Net fans are right that winning means nothing for them this year and it's all about development, than it make perfect sense to not be in an hurry to get Lin back on the court as soon as possible...Thus the 2 weeks time simply to re-evaluate his injury.
Kenny truly believe in his ability to develop young guys and my sense is he's probably a bit over his head and overconfident in his ability, specially when we're talking about C and D lever prospects with low-potential ceilings....
I've always felt that Kenny gets way too much credit for Linsanity and this may be the reason why he's giving guys who should be in the D-league extended minutes in the NBA..Maybe he believe Linsanity was all him..Of course, that is crazy....Problem is, Lin was really not a C-level prospect..Lin was simply hurt by his Asian heritage and this is why no one felt the need to invest in his development.
Even D'antoni gets way too much credit....D'antoni simply had no choice but to play Lin..It's like God saw the injustice and forced Mike's hand in giving Lin the time by making sure all their PG got hurt and couldn't play......At the time, all Lin needed is a chance to play extended minutes...D'antoni system of heavy PnR just happened to fit Lin's game perfectly
Unlike RHJ, Lin wasn't a very raw prospect with terrible basic fundamentals and feel for the game..I think Lin Asian heritage was the main reason why no team were willing to invest in his development..They just couldn't imagine an Asian player could even become a NBA bench player, unless he had the size of Yao Ming.
Lin also had a very good summer league and actually outplayed John Wall during their match up...So Lin had the skill-set and everything...all he needed is extended time by a team willing to invest in his development like the Nets are doing with Whitehead and even RHJ...Instead, Lin was forced to go down to D-League and he dominated there..But still, many team just didn't think he was worth trying to develop until Linsanity happen, which was a miracle...All Lin got was 15 day contracts.
Nothing less than Linsanity would had kept Lin in the NBA..Yet, we see so many young guys with very low potential get extended amount of minutes and time, but yet, we're not seeing them explode like Lin did when he got his shot.
Relax man. Kenny wants to see Lin succeed more than anyone in the world. It's why Lin came here. He's not going to keep him off the floor for silly selfish reasons. Do you want Lin to rush back and be at 80%? Or hurt himself worse and be out for a couple months?
It's not about winning or losing. It's about making sure Lin is 100%. Risking his health for Games 6 through 11 is ridiculous. We need him on the floor for most of the season and we need him at his best.
Pistolpete1947 wrote:bws94 wrote:I don't agree Cliff should start Lin with the starting lineup stuff. Why? Lin was one of the most effective guards in the league off the bench. Playing with Kemba and Batum and Al or Cody, all of them, is a waste of his offense. In a closing lineup, fine, but as starter? It makes no sense. Who is going to run and organize the bench in that case? You don't need to have all of your offense in the starting lineup. That's folly. Almost every good starting lineup have guys serving a role, a 3 and D guy, a rebounder, a tough inside presence, a defensive specialist, you name it. Starter doesn't mean put it your most talented players, it means put in the playing group that makes the most sense. There are two guys or so that usually have the ball more. Even in motion offenses, there's someone directing it and a center the ball goes through.
Cliff thought Lin of the bench made the team stronger. And that's what he cared about. The team. And that team did well. When Batum wasn't in, Lin started. But Lin and Batum and Kemba is overkill to start a game. One of those three won't get as many touches to keep them in the flow, and often it was Lin.
Let's move on from this. Lin starts now and was off to a good start. He's showing himself to be a good leader. Now, he's part of the team of vets, actually the team's leader per Kilpatrick and Lopez, that will build the culture on this Nets team.
As for Lin's race benefits or disadvantages, we've talked it to death. And really, on a dedicated Lin forum it's fine. Not here. Here should be about him as a Net and anything in the past, showing what he has done that he can do to benefit the Nets.
Ok so we disagree with Lin starting at Charlotte and that's all good. I do know when he played starter minutes against Miami in the playoffs Charlotte won 3 games in a row. When Batum came back he was probably 75% healthy, Lin went back to playing backup minutes and the rest is history. I don't see you disagreeing on his history with the Knicks, Houston or Lakers so I assume you either don't know about it or agree with me. As far as race goes I didn't bring it up but addressed it because I feel race bias is overblown by some Lin fans. This is a Lin thread however so I see no reason not to discuss race in it because it has been a factor in his career.
bws94 wrote:Pistolpete1947 wrote:bws94 wrote:I don't agree Cliff should start Lin with the starting lineup stuff. Why? Lin was one of the most effective guards in the league off the bench. Playing with Kemba and Batum and Al or Cody, all of them, is a waste of his offense. In a closing lineup, fine, but as starter? It makes no sense. Who is going to run and organize the bench in that case? You don't need to have all of your offense in the starting lineup. That's folly. Almost every good starting lineup have guys serving a role, a 3 and D guy, a rebounder, a tough inside presence, a defensive specialist, you name it. Starter doesn't mean put it your most talented players, it means put in the playing group that makes the most sense. There are two guys or so that usually have the ball more. Even in motion offenses, there's someone directing it and a center the ball goes through.
Cliff thought Lin of the bench made the team stronger. And that's what he cared about. The team. And that team did well. When Batum wasn't in, Lin started. But Lin and Batum and Kemba is overkill to start a game. One of those three won't get as many touches to keep them in the flow, and often it was Lin.
Let's move on from this. Lin starts now and was off to a good start. He's showing himself to be a good leader. Now, he's part of the team of vets, actually the team's leader per Kilpatrick and Lopez, that will build the culture on this Nets team.
As for Lin's race benefits or disadvantages, we've talked it to death. And really, on a dedicated Lin forum it's fine. Not here. Here should be about him as a Net and anything in the past, showing what he has done that he can do to benefit the Nets.
Ok so we disagree with Lin starting at Charlotte and that's all good. I do know when he played starter minutes against Miami in the playoffs Charlotte won 3 games in a row. When Batum came back he was probably 75% healthy, Lin went back to playing backup minutes and the rest is history. I don't see you disagreeing on his history with the Knicks, Houston or Lakers so I assume you either don't know about it or agree with me. As far as race goes I didn't bring it up but addressed it because I feel race bias is overblown by some Lin fans. This is a Lin thread however so I see no reason not to discuss race in it because it has been a factor in his career.
Starter minutes, yes. But on Charlotte's team, Batum distributed while Kemba did the ball handling. Lin didn't get a lot of touches when he started with both of them and a lot of the time on court with both of them. They needed him in the closing lineup, because when defenses would load up on Batum or Kemba, Lin made them pay. And he got the hustle plays, drew fouls, and went to the foul line. But Lin running the bench unit was very valuable for last year's Charlotte club or being the bridge between the starters and the bench. He played in both units.
Unlike many other Lin fans I don't feel like bench is inferior. I feel if you can get sufficient minutes, it doesn't matter if you start or not. But you need starter's minutes, like only a few players off the bench get. You still have to look at the full team and playing groups, not individual players when determining who should be in the playing groups. On Charlotte and Houston, I always wanted Lin playing starters minutes and closing games. That was a higher priority for me than starting games or 3rd quarters.
Pistolpete1947 wrote:bws94 wrote:Pistolpete1947 wrote:
Ok so we disagree with Lin starting at Charlotte and that's all good. I do know when he played starter minutes against Miami in the playoffs Charlotte won 3 games in a row. When Batum came back he was probably 75% healthy, Lin went back to playing backup minutes and the rest is history. I don't see you disagreeing on his history with the Knicks, Houston or Lakers so I assume you either don't know about it or agree with me. As far as race goes I didn't bring it up but addressed it because I feel race bias is overblown by some Lin fans. This is a Lin thread however so I see no reason not to discuss race in it because it has been a factor in his career.
Starter minutes, yes. But on Charlotte's team, Batum distributed while Kemba did the ball handling. Lin didn't get a lot of touches when he started with both of them and a lot of the time on court with both of them. They needed him in the closing lineup, because when defenses would load up on Batum or Kemba, Lin made them pay. And he got the hustle plays, drew fouls, and went to the foul line. But Lin running the bench unit was very valuable for last year's Charlotte club or being the bridge between the starters and the bench. He played in both units.
Unlike many other Lin fans I don't feel like bench is inferior. I feel if you can get sufficient minutes, it doesn't matter if you start or not. But you need starter's minutes, like only a few players off the bench get. You still have to look at the full team and playing groups, not individual players when determining who should be in the playing groups. On Charlotte and Houston, I always wanted Lin playing starters minutes and closing games. That was a higher priority for me than starting games or 3rd quarters.
I agree with what you're saying about Batum, Walker and Lin all playing together - it was a waste of Lin's talents. However when Batum or Walker was out the team was led by Lin in wins over San Antonio AND Cleveland! Against Miami in the playoffs Batum was hurt and they won 3 straight with Lin playing major minutes. The team would have had even a better season if Lin had started over Walker or Batum. Walker would have been a great 6th man for instant offense off the bench. Of course this was never going to happen because Kemba was "The Man" in Charlotte. People will really think I'm delusional now but as this season progresses (if Lin recovers) I think they will at least think my opinion has some merit.
