Why Teletovic should start for Brooklyn

[DWILLoftheGODZ]

No doubt DWILLoftheGODZ made a post for the ages which in some form took away from another person's perspective due to him having a different opinion of his.

Anyway it's good that people who are involved or have been professionally in basketball starting to see what most of us have been saying.

Hey Mr Excuses

Mirza shoots 1 of 5 vs the worse team in the NBA playing with the starters the majority of the minutes. How do you explain that?

I thought he would score 50 and prove me wrong. Im still waiting.

Too bad this isnt soccer, then maybe you would have a clue. Kurt Rambis is 56-145 as a head coach. I wouldnt take his advice if he paid me.

If you want to take stats and skew them, Evans is shooting 30% over the last 30 days with all, but two shots outside the paint. Mirza on inconsistent minutes is 35% with shots taken all over the floor.

Weird stats aside, I still don't see how you could continue to bash Mirza while clearly overlooking Evans's horrible play.

I dont want either Evans or Tele playing. I do think Evans is better then Mirza for this team though.

Blatche should be starting at PF since he is one of our top 4 players and Hump should be getting the rest of the minutes.

[Rich Rane]

I dont want either Evans or Tele playing. I do think Evans is better then Mirza for this team though.

How so? The team seems to be playing 4 on 5 on both ends of the floor with Evans in the game. It's a challenge for fans and a cringe-worthy few seconds to watch him attempt a cleanup or a finish under the basket.

[DWILLoftheGODZ]

I dont want either Evans or Tele playing. I do think Evans is better then Mirza for this team though.

How so? The team seems to be playing 4 on 5 on both ends of the floor with Evans in the game. It's a challenge for fans and a cringe-worthy few seconds to watch him attempt a cleanup or a finish under the basket.

Evans, by most defensive metrics, is the best defender on this team. I know people dont like to admit that but he is. Plus he is the best rebounder in the NBA.

Lopez is the best player on the team so you have to build around his weaknesses which happen to be Evans strengths.

I wont deny floor spacing is an issue but that is because of Wallace. Very few teams use a PF to space the floor. I think Bogans should be in the starting lineup over Wallace. He brings defense and spot up ability.

Playing Lopez and Tele together is a defensive nightmare plus Tele is just another mouth to feed offensively on a team that doesnt have enough shots to go around already. It doesnt help that Tele isnt able to shoot over 40%.

The problem with both Evans and Tele is that they are one trick ponies though. Blatche is the second best big on the team and has a more well rounded game then Evans, Tele or Hump. He should be starting at PF.

[NyCeEvO]

I dont want either Evans or Tele playing. I do think Evans is better then Mirza for this team though.

How so? The team seems to be playing 4 on 5 on both ends of the floor with Evans in the game. It's a challenge for fans and a cringe-worthy few seconds to watch him attempt a cleanup or a finish under the basket.

Evans, by most defensive metrics, is the best defender on this team. I know people dont like to admit that but he is. Plus he is the best rebounder in the NBA.

Prove it.

I've already showed you how DRTG isn't a good measurement of how good of an individual defender you are and you conveniently did not respond to my post when I clearly laid out how of looking at a combination of the avg. opponent's PER & eFG% is way better than simply looking at DRTG. And please don't bring up DWS since DWS is just a stat that solely based on DRTG anyway.

What are these 'metrics' that you are referring to outside of DRTG/DWS?

[PetroNet]

Prove it.

I've already showed you how DRTG isn't a good measurement of how good of an individual defender you are and you conveniently did not respond to my post when I clearly laid out how of looking at a combination of the avg. opponent's PER & eFG% is way better than simply looking at DRTG. And please don't bring up DWS since DWS is just a stat that solely based on DRTG anyway.

What are these 'metrics' that you are referring to outside of DRTG/DWS?

his opponents PER (15.7) is lower then Hump(16.1), Blatche(21.9), Lopez(16.9) and Mirza(20.2)

his opponents eFG% (.479) is lower then Mirza(.587), Lopez (.512), hump (.524), Blatche (.561)

all according to 82games.com

his DRTG(100) and Def. win shares(2.5) both are best on the team. i know you dont value those, but when combined with the other numbers listed, i dont think its a stretch to say he is our best defensive big... not that that really says much since we are terrible defensively.

[NyCeEvO]

He said he's the best defender on the team, not of the big men.

Evans, by most defensive metrics, is the best defender on this team.

Those are his words not mine.

Prove that he's the best on the team. I already know the stats, I just want to see him actually go the length to prove that Evans is a better defender than JJ or even Wallace.

Also, it's pretty logical that the DRTG is going to be low when Evans is in because our pace is slowest when he's in. He can't even run better than Lopez so not only does he force our offense to work at a slower pace so he can be in the same halfcourt but on top of that we don't even get anything out of him when we're running the offense cuz he can't do crap.


And let's continue this discussion of offense versus defense. Even if you want to say that Reggie Evans is the best defender on the team (which I still don't agree with), what does his defense do that makes our team defense better? Nothing.

Our defense is still tremendously bad and now we're going to compound the problem by playing 3 1/2 v. 5 on offense too?

As many others have said, we knew that this team could have an elite offense and probably an average defense. Right now, our offense is above-average but definitely not elite and our defense is pretty bad. We're not going to contend with elite teams with just an above-average offense, especially when our defense is bad regardless of whether Evans is in or not. If you're going to play bad defense, you might as well have an elite offense and that's not happening with Evans in the lineup.

[PetroNet]

He said he's the best defender on the team, not of the big men.

Evans, by most defensive metrics, is the best defender on this team.

Those are his words not mine.

Prove that he's the best on the team. I already know the stats, I just want to see him actually go the length to prove that Evans is a better defender than JJ or even Wallace.

Also, it's pretty logical that the DRTG is going to be low when Evans is in because our pace is slowest when he's in. He can't even run better than Lopez so not only does he force our offense to work at a slower pace so he can be in the same halfcourt but on top of that we don't even get anything out of him when we're running the offense cuz he can't do crap.


And let's continue this discussion of offense versus defense. Even if you want to say that Reggie Evans is the best defender on the team (which I still don't agree with), what does his defense do that makes our team defense better? Nothing.

Our defense is still tremendously bad and now we're going to compound the problem by playing 3 1/2 v. 5 on offense too?

As many others have said, we knew that this team could have an elite offense and probably an average defense. Right now, our offense is above-average but definitely not elite and our defense is pretty bad. We're not going to contend with elite teams with just an above-average offense, especially when our defense is bad regardless of whether Evans is in or not. If you're going to play bad defense, you might as well have an elite offense and that's not happening with Evans in the lineup.

we arent elite on offense no matter what lineup we run out. we are certainly better with hump, and potentially much better with teletovic, but still nowhere near elite. too much jump shooting, no one who gets to the FT line enough, not enough finsihers, too many guys who are incosnsitent week to week, and dwill being slowed to injury.

it basically comes down to to this. if one of our big 3 is hot shooting, we look good, if not, we dont, regardless of who is on the floor with them. its too easy to make us a jump shooting team. and jump shooting teams that suck on defense dont win.

im not saying this to advocate reggie playing more. my point is more our issues are bigger then who starts at PF. even though its obvious it should be hump or mirza, with both seeing 20+ mpg and reggie getting whatever scraps are left

[DWILLoftheGODZ]

Evans, by most defensive metrics, is the best defender on this team. I know people dont like to admit that but he is. Plus he is the best rebounder in the NBA.

Prove it.

I've already showed you how DRTG isn't a good measurement of how good of an individual defender you are and you conveniently did not respond to my post when I clearly laid out how of looking at a combination of the avg. opponent's PER & eFG% is way better than simply looking at DRTG. And please don't bring up DWS since DWS is just a stat that solely based on DRTG anyway.

What are these 'metrics' that you are referring to outside of DRTG/DWS?

See what PetroNet posted below. I posted something similar to this earlier in the thread but you continue to ignore it.

his opponents PER (15.7) is lower then Hump(16.1), Blatche(21.9), Lopez(16.9) and Mirza(20.2)

his opponents eFG% (.479) is lower then Mirza(.587), Lopez (.512), hump (.524), Blatche (.561)

all according to 82games.com

his DRTG(100) and Def. win shares(2.5) both are best on the team. i know you dont value those, but when combined with the other numbers listed, i dont think its a stretch to say he is our best defensive big... not that that really says much since we are terrible defensively.

Im sure you want to throw these stats out also because it doesnt support your bias against Evans.

Now lets talk about offense.

Mirza is suppose to be one of the best shooters on the team yet he is tied for LAST in FG% at 36.2%.

Mirza is suppose to have a high BBIQ yet on a per 36 minute basis, he takes more shots then everyone except Lopez & Blatche who have the 2 top FG% on the team (51.6% & 49%). Worst shooter on the team taking the 3rd most shots relative to his minutes. That's not smart; it's selfish.

This is why I dont get why people defend Mirza like he is a good player. Nothing supports that rationale other then fandom. This is usually where the conversation breaks down into biased logic to defend Mirza over Reggie like

- Throwing out stats. "Rebounds are overrated." FYI they are not. "What Mirza did under Avery should be thrown out." Avery is gone yet Mirza is still playing poorly.

- Cherrypicking stats. " In the 3 Sunday games in which Mirza has blah, blah, blah."

- Bringing up "unquantifiables" as I like to call them. "Mirza is better then Reggie on defense" NO, "Mirza has the highest BBIQ on the team" Mirza is out of position on defense more then anyone on the team and Greg Anthony says it all the time., "Mirza helps space the floor." Mirza is the worst shooter on the team.

- And my favorite, Spin Speak.

He comes into camp out of shape.
Spin Speak: "Mirza bulked up".

He is billed as ready to play veteran who was the Leading Scorer in Europe and that is why he is making the MLE
Spin Speak: "Mirza is just a rookie, you should give him time". Really? The Nets were going to give him more then the #1 pick gets.

He is mentally tough because he comes from a war torn Bosnia.
Spin Speak: "He needs time to adjust. You dont know how hard it is to go to another country." This isnt the first time in his career that he has played in a foreign country and if he was so tough why does he need adjustment time?

He needs time with the starters.
Spin Speak: Im still waiting for this one because he got time with the starters against 2 of the worst teams in the NBA and shot 2-13 vs them.

Do I have an agenda? Yes. I dont want the worst player on the team being giving his minutes because he cost the Nets the MLE and management looks bad. Playing Mirza is splitting the locker room and costing my favorite team wins.

I have used quantifiable facts to support my view. Please feel free to dispute me with something other then your opinion.

[NyCeEvO]

I honestly didn't see what you posted about Evans proving that he was the best defender on the team. If it's convincing, just re-post it. It's that simple.

Im sure you want to throw these stats out also because it doesnt support your bias against Evans.

You're the one who said he's the best defender on the team. I said prove he's the best defender on the team, not the best big defender. I'm just asking you to be consistent with what you saw with your own words.

Now lets talk about offense.

Mirza is suppose to be one of the best shooters on the team yet he is tied for LAST in FG% at 36.2%.

Have you ever played organized basketball? I assume you must think that the best shooters are robots or something. Do you honestly think that getting minimal PT especially for a guy who's a volume scorer is going to equate to anything?

Matter of fact, why do teams have layup lines and shooting drills? Just for the heck of it? If you don't get much PT, it's extremely hard for you to just go in there and start nailing 3s from all over the place. Every player needs to get into a rhythm. There's a reason why the players were/are a little disgruntled at the fact that PJ hasn't settled on a rotation or set minutes yet. D-Will said it himself that it's better for guys to know when they're coming in on a regular basis. You can't just throw them in there and expect them to just instantly produce.

You act like we've never seen him shoot or have stats from him before he came into the NBA that show how good of a shooter he is. And that's when he's the focal point of the offense

Mirza is suppose to have a high BBIQ yet on a per 36 minute basis, he takes more shots then everyone except Lopez & Blatche who have the 2 top FG% on the team (51.6% & 49%). Worst shooter on the team taking the 3rd most shots relative to his minutes. That's not smart; it's selfish.

BBIQ now has a correlation with FGA per 36?

Did you know that per 36, Rasheed Wallace averaged 17.1 FGA, which is second on the Knicks. Higher than J.R., Amare, and Felton but everyone knows Rasheed has a high BBIQ. Mmm...I guess everyone was wrong.


Oh, and I wonder why Mirza shoots so much. He must be just doing whatever he wants out there and not following coaches orders:

But even after his struggles, the last thing Nets coach Avery Johnson wants Teletovic to do is to stop shooting.

“[I want him to] shoot 20 times,” Johnson said. “He’s the type of guy that, if he has 11 3’s [tomorrow] night at home, he’ll make eight, and that’s OK. He’s a real capable 3-point shooter, and this was his first NBA game. He knows what he’s doing, and we want him to continue to shoot.”

via http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/nets/tel ... 3ldd2v60wN

And let me ask you something? If Jeremy Lin was as talented why was he only a day away from being cut on the Knicks?

Why in the limited playing time that he had before "Linsanity" started, did he look like a D-leaguer and then all of a sudden, he started playing better?

Did he go to the god of basketball and ask for talent so that he could become a basketball sensation? No.

He was thrusted into the starting lineup due to injuries and got way more minutes than he was given as garbage time player and people saw that you can't just give this guy minimal time on the court and expect magic.

Once he was given regular playing time and was able to produce, he showed that he was an NBA-caliber player. We've already seen Mirza tear up tons of leagues overseas. We know that he can play basketball.

You honestly expect a guy who has been the focal point of his offense and log tons of minutes before to now instantly come here and beast averaging 8.8mpg? That's absurd.

[NyCeEvO]

we arent elite on offense no matter what lineup we run out. we are certainly better with hump, and potentially much better with teletovic, but still nowhere near elite. too much jump shooting, no one who gets to the FT line enough, not enough finsihers, too many guys who are incosnsitent week to week, and dwill being slowed to injury.

it basically comes down to to this. if one of our big 3 is hot shooting, we look good, if not, we dont, regardless of who is on the floor with them. its too easy to make us a jump shooting team. and jump shooting teams that suck on defense dont win.

im not saying this to advocate reggie playing more. my point is more our issues are bigger then who starts at PF. even though its obvious it should be hump or mirza, with both seeing 20+ mpg and reggie getting whatever scraps are left

You're missing the trees for the forest bro.

All I said was showing was that coming into the season we knew that we'd have the capability of being a very good offensive team (obviously given if everything clicked, Mirza was starting, and Wallace didn't look like a corpse out there) in comparison to defense.

It was obvious that based on the personnel that we have that we weren't going to beat anyone defensively. And the point was that given the fact that we're going to be relatively the same on defense regardless of who's at the PF spot, you might as well give the offense a potential to have greater potency.

[MrDollarBills]

I do think Evans is better then Mirza for this team though.

Your hate for Mirza has gone beyond the point of irrationality.

[DWILLoftheGODZ]

I do think Evans is better then Mirza for this team though.

Your hate for Mirza has gone beyond the point of irrationality.

I dont like him. He is like a worse version of Morrow and has done ZILCH to earn the playing time he is getting. He is getting the same amount of minutes as Blatche this month for fck sake.

I still have hopes for a deep playoff run this year and that's not happening with Tele in the rotation taking minutes away from our better players. Minutes should be doled out to the best players. This year our top 5 players have been Lopez, DWill, Blatche, JJ, and Bogans. They should be starting. PERIOD.

Evans has outplayed both Hump and Tele and should be getting the backup minutes.

[NyCeEvO]

So the reason we're not going on a deep playoff run is because Mirza is in for too many minutes?

[DWILLoftheGODZ]

So the reason we're not going on a deep playoff run is because Mirza is in for too many minutes?

Mirza in means less minutes for Blatche

Brooks in (Who I am a big fan of) means less minutes for Bogans (Who I didnt like when the season started but has earned his playing time)

Watson should be splitting his minutes with Taylor who adds an extra dynamic when he plays.


These are PJ's biggest mistakes, and yes Mirza is the biggest.

[PetroNet]

Mirza in means less minutes for Blatche

so let me get this straight.... Andray blatche, who has played 57 of his 1185 minutes this season at PF, will be losing minutes to Mirza Teletovic if Tele stays in the rotation?

what kind of logic is that exactly? When tele was getting DNPs Blatche wasnt seeing time at PF. now that Tele is in and hump is getting DNPs i fail to see how tele is cutting into blatche minutes when its clear he has taking humphries.

:facepalm:

[DWILLoftheGODZ]

Mirza in means less minutes for Blatche

so let me get this straight.... Andray blatche, who has played 57 of his 1185 minutes this season at PF, will be losing minutes to Mirza Teletovic if Tele stays in the rotation?

what kind of logic is that exactly? When tele was getting DNPs Blatche wasnt seeing time at PF. now that Tele is in and hump is getting DNPs i fail to see how tele is cutting into blatche minutes when its clear he has taking humphries.

:facepalm:

Blatche should have been playing 30 minutes a game with half of his minutes coming at the 4. Evans deserves minutes over both Tele and Hump although I would prefer Hump of the 2.

It's time for the Mirza loves to own his play this year. He has been a complete bust. Your out of excuses as to why he continues to fail.

[Keith Van Horn]

Mirza has lost his shot. Time for a 3 day juicing diet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[NyCeEvO]

Mirza has lost his shot. Time for a 3 day juicing diet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Yeah, he's not playing too good right now. But at least we have Hump...oh wait.

[SteveNets15]

Our PF situation is so sad.

[Paradise]

2 PFs with inconsistent minutes and shot confidence and 1 PF with all the confidence in the world and is the worst player in the league.

I could live with knowing we have awful players at that position but I refuse to accept it when Kris and Mirza came in this season with quality roles and expectations and both have been screwed and jerked around to the point where they aren't useful at all consistently. Meanwhile, Reggie is overused and has all the confidence in the world to make consecutive jumpers.

Why can't PJ just do what Woodson does and use Mirza for 15 minutes, Kris for 10 minutes as a starter and Reggie in spot situations depending on matchups and rebounding? I love seeing him grab 24 rebounds and all but it's getting ridiculous how it's 3 on 5 offensively. Mike Woodson has the most big man depth in the league right now and still manages to get production from his Forward shooter and rebounders with QUALITY balance.


Deron, JJ, Bogans, Wallace, Lopez is the best lineup statically this season and anyone with half a brain can figure out why it's the most logical lineup overall. But Logical isn't how it's done with these clowns.