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Official Current Affairs & Politics thread

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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#201 » by shakendfries » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:50 pm

The “Other Side” Is Not Dumb
by Sean Blanda

There’s a fun game I like to play in a group of trusted friends called “Controversial Opinion.” The rules are simple: Don’t talk about what was shared during Controversial Opinion afterward and you aren’t allowed to “argue” — only to ask questions about why that person feels that way. Opinions can range from “I think James Bond movies are overrated” to “I think Donald Trump would make a excellent president.”

Usually, someone responds to an opinion with, “Oh my god! I had no idea you were one of those people!” Which is really another way of saying “I thought you were on my team!”

In psychology, the idea that everyone is like us is called the “false-consensus bias.” This bias often manifests itself when we see TV ratings (“Who the hell are all these people that watch NCIS?”) or in politics (“Everyone I know is for stricter gun control! Who are these backwards rubes that disagree?!”) or polls (“Who are these people voting for Ben Carson?”).

Online it means we can be blindsided by the opinions of our friends or, more broadly, America. Over time, this morphs into a subconscious belief that we and our friends are the sane ones and that there’s a crazy “Other Side” that must be laughed at — an Other Side that just doesn’t “get it,” and is clearly not as intelligent as “us.” But this holier-than-thou social media behavior is counterproductive, it’s self-aggrandizement at the cost of actual nuanced discourse and if we want to consider online discourse productive, we need to move past this.

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What is emerging is the worst kind of echo chamber, one where those inside are increasingly convinced that everyone shares their world view, that their ranks are growing when they aren’t. It’s like clockwork: an event happens and then your social media circle is shocked when a non-social media peer group public reacts to news in an unexpected way. They then mock the Other Side for being “out of touch” or “dumb.”

Fredrik deBoer, one of my favorite writers around, touched on this in his Essay “Getting Past the Coalition of the Cool.” He writes:
[The Internet] encourages people to collapse any distinction between their work life, their social life, and their political life. “Hey, that person who tweets about the TV shows I like also dislikes injustice,” which over time becomes “I can identify an ally by the TV shows they like.” The fact that you can mine a Rihanna video for political content becomes, in that vague internety way, the sense that people who don’t see political content in Rihanna’s music aren’t on your side.


When someone communicates that they are not “on our side” our first reaction is to run away or dismiss them as stupid. To be sure, there are hateful, racist, people not worthy of the small amount of electricity it takes just one of your synapses to fire. I’m instead referencing those who actually believe in an opposing viewpoint of a complicated issue, and do so for genuine, considered reasons. Or at least, for reasons just as good as yours.

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This is not a “political correctness” issue. It’s a fundamental rejection of the possibility to consider that the people who don’t feel the same way you do might be right. It’s a preference to see the Other Side as a cardboard cut out, and not the complicated individual human beings that they actually are.

What happens instead of genuine intellectual curiosity is the sharing of Slate or Onion or Fox News or Red State links. Sites that exist almost solely to produce content to be shared so friends can pat each other on the back and mock the Other Side. Look at the Other Side! So dumb and unable to see this the way I do!

Sharing links that mock a caricature of the Other Side isn’t signaling that we’re somehow more informed. It signals that we’d rather be smug **** than consider alternative views. It signals that we’d much rather show our friends that we’re like them, than try to understand those who are not.

It’s impossible to consider yourself a curious person and participate in social media in this way. We cannot consider ourselves “empathetic” only to turn around and belittle those who don’t agree with us.

On Twitter and Facebook this means we prioritize by sharing stuff that will garner approval of our peers over stuff that’s actually, you know, true. We share stuff that ignores wider realities, selectively shares information, or is just an outright falsehood. The misinformation is so rampant that the Washington Post stopped publishing its internet fact-checking column because people didn’t seem to care if stuff was true.

Where debunking an Internet fake once involved some research, it’s now often as simple as clicking around for an “about” or “disclaimer” page. And where a willingness to believe hoaxes once seemed to come from a place of honest ignorance or misunderstanding, that’s frequently no longer the case. Headlines like “Casey Anthony found dismembered in truck” go viral via old-fashioned schadenfreude — even hate.

Institutional distrust is so high right now, and cognitive bias so strong always, that the people who fall for hoax news stories are frequently only interested in consuming information that conforms with their views — even when it’s demonstrably fake.


The solution, as deBoer says, “You have to be willing to sacrifice your carefully curated social performance and be willing to work with people who are not like you.” In other words you have to recognize that the Other Side is made of actual people.

Read on Twitter


But I’d like to go a step further. We should all enter every issue with the very real possibility that we might be wrong this time.
Isn’t it possible that you, reader of Medium and Twitter power user, like me, suffer from this from time to time? Isn’t it possible that we’re not right about everything? That those who live in places not where you live, watch shows that you don’t watch, and read books that you don’t read, have opinions and belief systems just as valid as yours? That maybe you don’t see the entire picture?

Think political correctness has gotten out of control? Follow the many great social activists on Twitter. Think America’s stance on guns is puzzling? Read the stories of the 31% of Americans that own a firearm. This is not to say the Other Side is “right” but that they likely have real reasons to feel that way. And only after understanding those reasons can a real discussion take place.

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As any debate club veteran knows, if you can’t make your opponent’s point for them, you don’t truly grasp the issue. We can bemoan political gridlock and a divisive media all we want. But we won’t truly progress as individuals until we make an honest effort to understand those that are not like us. And you won’t convince anyone to feel the way you do if you don’t respect their position and opinions.

A dare for the next time you’re in discussion with someone you disagree with: Don’t try to “win.” Don’t try to “convince” anyone of your viewpoint. Don’t score points by mocking them to your peers. Instead try to “lose.” Hear them out. Ask them to convince you and mean it. No one is going to tell your environmentalist friends that you merely asked follow up questions after your brother made his pro-fracking case.

Or, the next time you feel compelled to share a link on social media about current events, ask yourself why you are doing it. Is it because that link brings to light information you hadn’t considered? Or does it confirm your world view, reminding your circle of intellectual teammates that you’re not on the Other Side?

I implore you to seek out your opposite. When you hear someone cite “facts” that don’t support your viewpoint don’t think “that can’t be true!” Instead consider, “Hm, maybe that person is right? I should look into this.”

Because refusing to truly understand those who disagree with you is intellectual laziness and worse, is usually worse than what you’re accusing the Other Side of doing.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#202 » by bws94 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:17 pm

netsentence your post is true in large part about the sides not listening to each other enough. I view Trump as a mentally unstable man that is full of crap. The argument at hand isn't the undercoverage of horrors in Africa perpetrated by Muslim extremists, it's more about the extreme actions of the US president. Trump did not send out a team to examine vetting for these countries to report back to him within a reasonable time. Instead, he went with his dark idea that he said over and over in his campaign promise about getting tough with Muslims. If you look at the totality of what Trump has done, start to repeal Obamacare, start the wall and tell the Mexican president he was going to pay for it, and others, that's what he's doing. Instead of fully researching a situation and weighing the impact of what he does as US president on all involved in the world, he just acted on whatever he thought he wanted to do in his campaign. I don't agree that there was any threat to America from immigrants coming in. I've seen enough info to show they were properly vetted as they should be. And there have been no terrorists incidents from these people and the parallel to Europe isn't a direct one (France has problems with Tunisians, Algerians, etc. due to their historic relationships with them, for instance). Trump brought up some real issues in America, but he's going about it as he's Mr. Fix it and a know-it-all, and almost America acts in a vacuum to be strong and the hell with anyone else. He doesn't know a lot, especially about how to be a president.

edit: @shakendfries, not netsentence. sorry about that.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#203 » by shakendfries » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:36 pm

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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#204 » by ChokeFasncists » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:48 pm

2k15 wrote:
shakendfries wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:No it's not. You just say that **** because it wouldn't happen to you or your family member(s). This point of view reeks of the typical privilege, devoid of all empathy, a problem that plagues this country.

How will stopping legal residents who went through proper channels and vetting, who have lived here for YEARS prevent a terrorist attack? Especially when the last several incidents have been at the hands of Americans? I'm more worried about some idiot who was born here shooting up the damn place than I am about some kid from Sudan coming here to get an education and make life better for themselves. What does detaining seniors and infants have to do with preventing terror? You think some 72 year old is going to wait til their golden years to become a suicide bomber? or some toddler's going to set off a diaper bomb in a day care center?

What does asking a Sudanese student their opinions on Donald Trump have to do with preventing a terrorist attack? Even if the answer was "I think he's a dirty pervert and a corrupt piece of ****", it still doesn't make her a terrorist. :lol:

You are perfectly fine heading down that slippery slope, but as this weekend showed most sane Americans aren't.

Go on, keep thinking that being afraid of everyone who is non white, non christian will keep you safe.


Geez, I didn't think my opinion automatically makes me an awful person. If you're that outspoken about the 7 countries that were labeled as terrorist hotspots, I'd be more convinced of your awareness if you had this same enthusiasm over Boko Haram.

Part of the problem is that the media is choosing to label this as a Muslim ban, rather than the actuality that out of 40+ Muslim nations, 7 of them that have been specifically labeled as hotspots are under scrutiny. However, labeling this as a religious issue will obviously trigger a bigger response from its audience.

If you're than well versed on the issues plaguing regions, would you care to speak on the oppression of non-Arab blacks in Africa? How about the history of their enslavement in this region?


I think you can argue about whether these bans might be a logical extension of what Obama had already done. For what it is worth, I am not persuaded by the conflict of interest conspiracy that is floated around - that Trump only banned countries where he doesn't have business interests in.

HOWEVER, what is not up to debate is how terrible this process was executed and how incredibly incompetent this administration has shown itself to be. That is what shocked me the most about what happened this weekend - how could you, when planning something of this magnitude, not have foreseen these issues? How could a couple of non-lawyers have overridden the DHS's determination that this ban should not apply to green-card holders? I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt before this but I am convinced now that they really don't know what they are doing.

Didn't Trump have to consult lawyers and accountants before acting as a businessman?

He thinks he is some kinda dictator above the law now?

Again, why did it have to be so abrupt? Is it some kinda strategy or just being rash?
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#205 » by CalamityX12 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:06 pm

I may be recalling it differently but from what i heard, this ban wasn't even counseled by the most experience nor proper departments/diplomats/security officials...

He did something without thinking the ramifications, like he has shown to do and now his mistakes(if) are a global concern and puts our lives at risk more so than ever(not necessarily in the immediate future)
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#206 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:17 pm

shakendfries wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:Your last sentence, in typical Trump supporter fashion, is an attempt to change the subject from the conversation you're not comfortable talking about because, well, you're condoning not only fascist behavior and overzealous legislating from the executive branch, but in open support of the persecution of a religious and ethnic minority in the United States. We're not talking persecution in Africa. We're talking about persecution right here in the United States. Which you are in approval of.

Racism and xenophobia are not patriotism. Nor do they keep populaces safe from terrorists, especially the home grown ones who shoot up churches and movie theaters.


Your emotional response to any issues or topics involving Trump makes discourse with you impossible. If you feel adamant speaking on the issues of honest people in these countries, why only speak on the issues involving Trump? Why weren't you outspoken over Boko Haram until I brought it up? Are you aware of the oppression of non-Arab blacks in Africa? Are you aware of the oppression of women in some of these Arab nations? Why don't you also speak to those issues?

It sounds like you're only upset over issues that the media is reporting on, and wishes to elicit a response from. If you weren't concerned about the issues plaguing these regions before last week, you're fooling yourself into thinking this newly conceived "ban" is the biggest issue in this region, or a significant factor against the reconciliation of those issues.


So now I'm "emotional" because I called you out for trying to change the subject? :lol: Way to duck every point raised and pussy your way out dude.

First of all, you don't know what issues I am "upset" over, because you and I rarely discuss anything on here outside of basketball.

yes, I am aware of all of those issues. That being said:

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE TOPIC WE WERE DISCUSSING? We are discussing blatant discriminatory behavior from the executive branch of this country upon properly vetted legal immigrants & legal residents of our country. The topic was not "current affairs and issues plaguing" Africa. How dishonest are you?

That's why I said typical of Trump supporters, folks quickly try to change the subject when it has to do with the current conduct of the week old Administration. You pulled it right out of the "alt right" playbook. Lets quickly change the subject to turn attention from the fact that gasp! ...you might just be supporting bigoted, fascist, and outright discriminatory behavior from our executive branch on the grounds of religious, ethnic, and racial intolerance. Don't try to make this about me, or about another topic when you're the one in support of this garbage that has not only set off a firestorm here at home, but has even our country's allies looking at us like we're crazy
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#207 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:30 pm

bws94 wrote:netsentence your post is true in large part about the sides not listening to each other enough. I view Trump as a mentally unstable man that is full of crap. The argument at hand isn't the undercoverage of horrors in Africa perpetrated by Muslim extremists, it's more about the extreme actions of the US president. Trump did not send out a team to examine vetting for these countries to report back to him within a reasonable time. Instead, he went with his dark idea that he said over and over in his campaign promise about getting tough with Muslims. If you look at the totality of what Trump has done, start to repeal Obamacare, start the wall and tell the Mexican president he was going to pay for it, and others, that's what he's doing. Instead of fully researching a situation and weighing the impact of what he does as US president on all involved in the world, he just acted on whatever he thought he wanted to do in his campaign. I don't agree that there was any threat to America from immigrants coming in. I've seen enough info to show they were properly vetted as they should be. And there have been no terrorists incidents from these people and the parallel to Europe isn't a direct one (France has problems with Tunisians, Algerians, etc. due to their historic relationships with them, for instance). Trump brought up some real issues in America, but he's going about it as he's Mr. Fix it and a know-it-all, and almost America acts in a vacuum to be strong and the hell with anyone else. He doesn't know a lot, especially about how to be a president.

edit: @shakendfries, not netsentence. sorry about that.


it might as well be net sentence, because that was something he'd do by trying to change the subject abruptly because he had nothing remotely credible to counter what was being said or is too intellectually lazy to stand there and defend his or her position.

I have no problem listening to other's views, but if I disagree with them I'll say as much (unless it's coming from some neo nazi trash whose ideology is based off of genocide, in that case there really is no point to have any rational discourse). Just don't sit here (shakeandfries), call someone "emotional" to downplay the argument that they're putting forth versus yours, while you're trying worm your way out of it because you can't properly defend your own stance and....then post articles like the one above to make it look like you're on some moral high ground for supporting Trump and Bannon's god awful, thoughtless and damaging actions this past weekend...because you represent "the other side".
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#208 » by ChokeFasncists » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:35 pm

CalamityX12 wrote:I may be recalling it differently but from what i heard, this ban wasn't even counseled by the most experience nor proper departments/diplomats/security officials...

Or maybe he was actually counseled by his most experienced closest ally Putin?
He did something without thinking the ramifications, like he has shown to do and now his mistakes(if) are a global concern and puts our lives at risk more so than ever(not necessarily in the immediate future)

Ya, and we're talking about possibly all human lives for generations to come.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#209 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:51 pm

ChokeFasncists wrote:
CalamityX12 wrote:I may be recalling it differently but from what i heard, this ban wasn't even counseled by the most experience nor proper departments/diplomats/security officials...

Or maybe he was actually counseled by his most experienced closest ally Putin?
He did something without thinking the ramifications, like he has shown to do and now his mistakes(if) are a global concern and puts our lives at risk more so than ever(not necessarily in the immediate future)

Ya, and we're talking about possibly all human lives for generations to come.


The head of DHS said that he found out that Trump had signed off on it while he was watching TV.

That just goes to show you how callous and thoughtless (or intentional, if you believe what is being said about Steve "I don't want my kid going to school with those Jews" Bannon's hand in all of this) the entire act was.

The scarier part about all of this is that behind the distraction of the immigrant situation is the fact that Trump basically put his cronies in charge of the NSC.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#210 » by 2k15 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:52 pm

ChokeFasncists wrote:
2k15 wrote:
shakendfries wrote:
Geez, I didn't think my opinion automatically makes me an awful person. If you're that outspoken about the 7 countries that were labeled as terrorist hotspots, I'd be more convinced of your awareness if you had this same enthusiasm over Boko Haram.

Part of the problem is that the media is choosing to label this as a Muslim ban, rather than the actuality that out of 40+ Muslim nations, 7 of them that have been specifically labeled as hotspots are under scrutiny. However, labeling this as a religious issue will obviously trigger a bigger response from its audience.

If you're than well versed on the issues plaguing regions, would you care to speak on the oppression of non-Arab blacks in Africa? How about the history of their enslavement in this region?


I think you can argue about whether these bans might be a logical extension of what Obama had already done. For what it is worth, I am not persuaded by the conflict of interest conspiracy that is floated around - that Trump only banned countries where he doesn't have business interests in.

HOWEVER, what is not up to debate is how terrible this process was executed and how incredibly incompetent this administration has shown itself to be. That is what shocked me the most about what happened this weekend - how could you, when planning something of this magnitude, not have foreseen these issues? How could a couple of non-lawyers have overridden the DHS's determination that this ban should not apply to green-card holders? I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt before this but I am convinced now that they really don't know what they are doing.

Didn't Trump have to consult lawyers and accountants before acting as a businessman?

He thinks he is some kinda dictator above the law now?

Again, why did it have to be so abrupt? Is it some kinda strategy or just being rash?


I am as confused as you are... This is just astounding.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#211 » by shakendfries » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:01 pm

bws94 wrote:netsentence your post is true in large part about the sides not listening to each other enough. I view Trump as a mentally unstable man that is full of crap. The argument at hand isn't the undercoverage of horrors in Africa perpetrated by Muslim extremists, it's more about the extreme actions of the US president. Trump did not send out a team to examine vetting for these countries to report back to him within a reasonable time. Instead, he went with his dark idea that he said over and over in his campaign promise about getting tough with Muslims. If you look at the totality of what Trump has done, start to repeal Obamacare, start the wall and tell the Mexican president he was going to pay for it, and others, that's what he's doing. Instead of fully researching a situation and weighing the impact of what he does as US president on all involved in the world, he just acted on whatever he thought he wanted to do in his campaign. I don't agree that there was any threat to America from immigrants coming in. I've seen enough info to show they were properly vetted as they should be. And there have been no terrorists incidents from these people and the parallel to Europe isn't a direct one (France has problems with Tunisians, Algerians, etc. due to their historic relationships with them, for instance). Trump brought up some real issues in America, but he's going about it as he's Mr. Fix it and a know-it-all, and almost America acts in a vacuum to be strong and the hell with anyone else. He doesn't know a lot, especially about how to be a president.

edit: @shakendfries, not netsentence. sorry about that.


Was the implementation of this provision haphazard, rushed, and could've been more thought out? Definitely. 2k15 brought up that point earlier and I agreed. However, with Obama going on record and labeling the countries in this region as a growing threat, I don't think anyone would argue against increased scrutiny of those coming from the region. I'm not sure the existence of an emerging threat from the region is really up for debate.

Again, I never claimed to be the most informed on the issues within this region, but the previous administration seemed pretty confident. If you're confident that the threat is minimal and contradicts Obama's report, I'd love to see some information that would support that position.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#212 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:27 pm

shakendfries wrote:
bws94 wrote:netsentence your post is true in large part about the sides not listening to each other enough. I view Trump as a mentally unstable man that is full of crap. The argument at hand isn't the undercoverage of horrors in Africa perpetrated by Muslim extremists, it's more about the extreme actions of the US president. Trump did not send out a team to examine vetting for these countries to report back to him within a reasonable time. Instead, he went with his dark idea that he said over and over in his campaign promise about getting tough with Muslims. If you look at the totality of what Trump has done, start to repeal Obamacare, start the wall and tell the Mexican president he was going to pay for it, and others, that's what he's doing. Instead of fully researching a situation and weighing the impact of what he does as US president on all involved in the world, he just acted on whatever he thought he wanted to do in his campaign. I don't agree that there was any threat to America from immigrants coming in. I've seen enough info to show they were properly vetted as they should be. And there have been no terrorists incidents from these people and the parallel to Europe isn't a direct one (France has problems with Tunisians, Algerians, etc. due to their historic relationships with them, for instance). Trump brought up some real issues in America, but he's going about it as he's Mr. Fix it and a know-it-all, and almost America acts in a vacuum to be strong and the hell with anyone else. He doesn't know a lot, especially about how to be a president.

edit: @shakendfries, not netsentence. sorry about that.


Was the implementation of this provision haphazard, rushed, and could've been more thought out? Definitely. 2k15 brought up that point earlier and I agreed. However, with Obama going on record and labeling the countries in this region as a growing threat, I don't think anyone would argue against increased scrutiny of those coming from the region. I'm not sure the existence of an emerging threat from the region is really up for debate.

Again, I never claimed to be the most informed on the issues within this region, but the previous administration seemed pretty confident. If you're confident that the threat is minimal and contradicts Obama's report, I'd love to see some information that would support that position.


Regarding Obama's actions versus Herr Trump's:

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2017/1/30/1627417/-Media-not-talking-about-President-Obama-s-ban-on-Iraqi-immigration-because-it-s-another-Trump-lie

“President Obama never imposed a six-month ban on Iraqi processing. For several months in 2011, there was a lower level of Iraqi resettlement, as the government implemented certain security enhancements. ... there was never a point during that period in which Iraqi resettlement was stopped, or banned.”

After two men who had already entered the country were found to have been involved in actions against US troops in 2005. The men were arrested, the backgrounds of other Iraqi refugees were reexamined, and the rules were made tougher … but there was never a “ban.” Not for six months. Not for six days. And the action that Obama did take, which slowed down but never halted processing of refugees, did not affect Iraqis traveling on green cards.

The idea that President Obama ever carried out a ban similar to that of Donald Trump, that’s just an alternative … no, wait. It’s a big, fat lie. And Trump’s ban is still illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional.


and mind you, I was highly critical of some of Obama's actions while in office, including Libya, his droning policy, and the crap that went on in Syria. But not at any time did he carry out something that heinous towards people who are here legally or are on the legal path to citizenship, to me if you're a legal resident/green card holder you are welcome here to live peacefully and work, which is what a majority of immigrants that are here are doing. It makes me very concerned for minority groups in this country in general with these fascists running things seemingly unchecked, with the support actual Americans condoning this behavior. Outside of a few Democrats and Republicans, Congress has been silent. Had Obama done anything remotely like this in the span of a week they'd be hard at work to overturn his actions at any angle possible.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#213 » by shakendfries » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:36 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
Regarding Obama's actions versus Herr Trump's:

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2017/1/30/1627417/-Media-not-talking-about-President-Obama-s-ban-on-Iraqi-immigration-because-it-s-another-Trump-lie

“President Obama never imposed a six-month ban on Iraqi processing. For several months in 2011, there was a lower level of Iraqi resettlement, as the government implemented certain security enhancements. ... there was never a point during that period in which Iraqi resettlement was stopped, or banned.”

After two men who had already entered the country were found to have been involved in actions against US troops in 2005. The men were arrested, the backgrounds of other Iraqi refugees were reexamined, and the rules were made tougher … but there was never a “ban.” Not for six months. Not for six days. And the action that Obama did take, which slowed down but never halted processing of refugees, did not affect Iraqis traveling on green cards.

The idea that President Obama ever carried out a ban similar to that of Donald Trump, that’s just an alternative … no, wait. It’s a big, fat lie. And Trump’s ban is still illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional.


and mind you, I was highly critical of some of Obama's actions while in office, including Libya, his droning policy, and the crap that went on in Syria. But not at any time did he carry out something that heinous towards people who are here legally or are on the legal path to citizenship, to me if you're a legal resident/green card holder you are welcome here to live peacefully and work, which is what a majority of immigrants that are here are doing. It makes me very concerned for minority groups in this country in general with these fascists running things seemingly unchecked. Outside of a few Democrats and Republicans, Congress has been silent. Had Obama done anything remotely like this in the span of a week they'd be hard at work to overturn his actions at any angle possible.


I can't disagree with you on that. I have close friends and university classmates getting hemmed up in this. It's definitely a mess for those with green cards and those on the path to attain them and isn't the warm welcome these people deserve to receive. Nobody with any sense of empathy likes to see that, or the vitriol being directed towards the Muslim community.

With that said I feel like labeling it a Muslim ban (which is something Trump brought upon himself with his rhetoric) doesn't quite capture the legitimate nature of the threat that Obama warned about from these particular countries in question.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#214 » by Rainyy » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:40 pm

Trump's executive orders certainly deserve criticism. Even if one concedes measures were justified for national security reasons (which is highly debatable), their actual implementation has been a rushed mess, the denied entry of visa-holders being the most conspicuous failure.

That said, I am bothered by the degree of hyperbole and outrage. I guess that is typical now given the echo-chamber that is social media, but I do not think anyone's position is served by succumbing to exaggeration, labeling, and black and white thinking.

1. No, Trump is not a fascist, or Hitler.
2. No, this is not a ban on Muslims.
3. No, this is not the worst catastrophe in American policy since slavery.
4. No, this is not "un-American," at least not compared to the real, historical America.
5. No, Trump's business connections have nothing to do with the countries selected.

The list goes on. Guys, we can eviscerate these policies while avoiding all of the above. In fact, a willingness to embrace complexity and the views of the other side, likely mean you will be closer to capturing the ever-elusive truth.

I'll add that there is an unfortunate rhetorical position that has been plaguing politics for some time now: the idea that because someone does something that limits what you perceive as your rights or otherwise detriments you, that that action is inherently wrong. Politics and the common good are a compromise. With any policy, there will be winners or losers. The narcissism of the internet age seems to forget this. It's why we are left with narratives that portray Trump supporters as "voting for Trump to take away MY rights."
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#215 » by bws94 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:48 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
ChokeFasncists wrote:
CalamityX12 wrote:I may be recalling it differently but from what i heard, this ban wasn't even counseled by the most experience nor proper departments/diplomats/security officials...

Or maybe he was actually counseled by his most experienced closest ally Putin?
He did something without thinking the ramifications, like he has shown to do and now his mistakes(if) are a global concern and puts our lives at risk more so than ever(not necessarily in the immediate future)

Ya, and we're talking about possibly all human lives for generations to come.


The head of DHS said that he found out that Trump had signed off on it while he was watching TV.

That just goes to show you how callous and thoughtless (or intentional, if you believe what is being said about Steve "I don't want my kid going to school with those Jews" Bannon's hand in all of this) the entire act was.

The scarier part about all of this is that behind the distraction of the immigrant situation is the fact that Trump basically put his cronies in charge of the NSC.


I agree, it's disturbing.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#216 » by Rainyy » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:53 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:it is a fact that didn't ban Muslim counties that he does business with, one of which is a known terrorist hot bed (Saudi Arabia).


Occam's Razor. People point to this quasi-conspiratorial "suspiciously 'coincidental'" explanation, yet seem very comfortable ignoring the history of Saudi-US relations.

You realize Saudi Arabia is one the US' closest allies in the Middle East? Probably THE closest after Israel. We have a significant interest in the Saudi oil market, which has led to us financially and politically supporting the country for decades, despite its many humanitarian and governmental issues. We also used them as a anti-Communist buffer during the Cold War.

No US President would have come down hard on Saudi Arabia. The US, regardless of administration, first and foremost acts on its most immediate economic and political interests, democracy/human rights be damned. Criticize Trump without holding him to a separate standard.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#217 » by bws94 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:14 pm

shakendfries wrote:
bws94 wrote:netsentence your post is true in large part about the sides not listening to each other enough. I view Trump as a mentally unstable man that is full of crap. The argument at hand isn't the undercoverage of horrors in Africa perpetrated by Muslim extremists, it's more about the extreme actions of the US president. Trump did not send out a team to examine vetting for these countries to report back to him within a reasonable time. Instead, he went with his dark idea that he said over and over in his campaign promise about getting tough with Muslims. If you look at the totality of what Trump has done, start to repeal Obamacare, start the wall and tell the Mexican president he was going to pay for it, and others, that's what he's doing. Instead of fully researching a situation and weighing the impact of what he does as US president on all involved in the world, he just acted on whatever he thought he wanted to do in his campaign. I don't agree that there was any threat to America from immigrants coming in. I've seen enough info to show they were properly vetted as they should be. And there have been no terrorists incidents from these people and the parallel to Europe isn't a direct one (France has problems with Tunisians, Algerians, etc. due to their historic relationships with them, for instance). Trump brought up some real issues in America, but he's going about it as he's Mr. Fix it and a know-it-all, and almost America acts in a vacuum to be strong and the hell with anyone else. He doesn't know a lot, especially about how to be a president.

edit: @shakendfries, not netsentence. sorry about that.


Was the implementation of this provision haphazard, rushed, and could've been more thought out? Definitely. 2k15 brought up that point earlier and I agreed. However, with Obama going on record and labeling the countries in this region as a growing threat, I don't think anyone would argue against increased scrutiny of those coming from the region. I'm not sure the existence of an emerging threat from the region is really up for debate.

Again, I never claimed to be the most informed on the issues within this region, but the previous administration seemed pretty confident. If you're confident that the threat is minimal and contradicts Obama's report, I'd love to see some information that would support that position.


Obama has made a statement against the ban. He supported the movements to demonstrate against it.

60 minutes did a segment on the process. There are guests on the various news channel talk shows that have shown some of the details of the vetting. The Obama administration kept adding more and more safeguards to it, so the process took longer. Honestly, I'd have to do a search on it but it shouldn't be hard to find the vetting procedures online. I say Trump put in the ban to fulfill his campaign promise because there is a pattern of him doing this pretty much since soon after his inaugural. The ban is one of them.

We face multiple threats. I think just as big a threat, if not bigger, are young men, some American, some from any Islamic country or even not an Islamic country, feel isolated and lacking purpose and turn to extremist from ISIS or al Qaeda. There is also the very real situation that extremists have a network that infiltrate mosques and social areas, so it is essential to work with Muslims in neighborhoods to learn who they are. If they travel places, it is not so often those 7 banned countries, but Pakistan, and sometimes Afghanistan, to become more radicalized. Or during the yearly trip to Mecca in Saudi Arabia perhaps. However, they can go to any country, and the extremists, whatever you call them, they aren't all called ISIS or al Qaeda, can set up in many different countries. And of course, many of them aren't on the list of 7, and some are conspicuously missing, like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.

We have to not always look from without. We have psychologically disturbed veterans out there that are ticking time bombs capable of the same killings as the extremists. What happened in the Florida airport is an example of it. I dislike strongly that Trump is looking to target and rally against some outside force that he almost scapegoats into saying they bring America down whether it is Muslims from his designated areas, undocumented Mexicans, the Chinese, or otherwise. His fixation on some things while being not tuned in to others serious dangers and issues, is a huge problem.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#218 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:53 pm

Rainyy wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:it is a fact that didn't ban Muslim counties that he does business with, one of which is a known terrorist hot bed (Saudi Arabia).


Occam's Razor. People point to this quasi-conspiratorial "suspiciously 'coincidental'" explanation, yet seem very comfortable ignoring the history of Saudi-US relations.

You realize Saudi Arabia is one the US' closest allies in the Middle East? Probably THE closest after Israel. We have a significant interest in the Saudi oil market, which has led to us financially and politically supporting the country for decades, despite its many humanitarian and governmental issues. We also used them as a anti-Communist buffer during the Cold War.

No US President would have come down hard on Saudi Arabia. The US, regardless of administration, first and foremost acts on its most immediate economic and political interests, democracy/human rights be damned. Criticize Trump without holding him to a separate standard.


yeah I don't need the history lesson chief, I realize that our government is in bed with the Saudis, despite Saudi terrorists being complicit in the deaths of thousands of people on our soil (unless you're some kind of truther that doesn't believe that?). I also will not look past the fact that the Muslim countries who escaped Trump's pen are also nations that he does business in just because you choose to do so. You can't expect people to turn a blind eye to conflicts of interests here when there are plenty....it's not "conspiracy theory" to point that out especially when his rhetoric involved banning all muslims until "a better system" can be devised...but coincidentally, he avoided the countries that could impact his personal bottom line. The man refused to relinquish his assets, so there really is no reason why his actions cannot be scrutinized for potential conflicts of interest.

And sorry, his detractors aren't the only ones holding him to a different standard. If Trump weren't being held to a separate standard, his past actions over the last week wouldn't be normalized by his supporters. had Obama began legislating from his desk in this manner the right would have had a collective aneurysm.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#219 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:02 pm

Rainyy wrote:Trump's executive orders certainly deserve criticism. Even if one concedes measures were justified for national security reasons (which is highly debatable), their actual implementation has been a rushed mess, the denied entry of visa-holders being the most conspicuous failure.

That said, I am bothered by the degree of hyperbole and outrage. I guess that is typical now given the echo-chamber that is social media, but I do not think anyone's position is served by succumbing to exaggeration, labeling, and black and white thinking.

1. No, Trump is not a fascist, or Hitler.
2. No, this is not a ban on Muslims.
3. No, this is not the worst catastrophe in American policy since slavery.
4. No, this is not "un-American," at least not compared to the real, historical America.
5. No, Trump's business connections have nothing to do with the countries selected.

The list goes on. Guys, we can eviscerate these policies while avoiding all of the above. In fact, a willingness to embrace complexity and the views of the other side, likely mean you will be closer to capturing the ever-elusive truth.

I'll add that there is an unfortunate rhetorical position that has been plaguing politics for some time now: the idea that because someone does something that limits what you perceive as your rights or otherwise detriments you, that that action is inherently wrong. Politics and the common good are a compromise. With any policy, there will be winners or losers. The narcissism of the internet age seems to forget this. It's why we are left with narratives that portray Trump supporters as "voting for Trump to take away MY rights."


I say fair enough on points 1, 3, and 4.

Points 2 and 5 are open to warranted scrutiny, considering the fact that the man SAID he'd execute a ban on Muslims (his words), and well, it goes without saying about the conflicts of interests that surround him.

Then we have the whole "religious test" and Trump wanting to "prioritize Christian refugees" and you're really hard pressed to sell this as something other than a Muslim ban.
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Re: Official Current Affairs & Politics thread 

Post#220 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:09 pm

shakendfries wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
Regarding Obama's actions versus Herr Trump's:

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2017/1/30/1627417/-Media-not-talking-about-President-Obama-s-ban-on-Iraqi-immigration-because-it-s-another-Trump-lie

“President Obama never imposed a six-month ban on Iraqi processing. For several months in 2011, there was a lower level of Iraqi resettlement, as the government implemented certain security enhancements. ... there was never a point during that period in which Iraqi resettlement was stopped, or banned.”

After two men who had already entered the country were found to have been involved in actions against US troops in 2005. The men were arrested, the backgrounds of other Iraqi refugees were reexamined, and the rules were made tougher … but there was never a “ban.” Not for six months. Not for six days. And the action that Obama did take, which slowed down but never halted processing of refugees, did not affect Iraqis traveling on green cards.

The idea that President Obama ever carried out a ban similar to that of Donald Trump, that’s just an alternative … no, wait. It’s a big, fat lie. And Trump’s ban is still illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional.


and mind you, I was highly critical of some of Obama's actions while in office, including Libya, his droning policy, and the crap that went on in Syria. But not at any time did he carry out something that heinous towards people who are here legally or are on the legal path to citizenship, to me if you're a legal resident/green card holder you are welcome here to live peacefully and work, which is what a majority of immigrants that are here are doing. It makes me very concerned for minority groups in this country in general with these fascists running things seemingly unchecked. Outside of a few Democrats and Republicans, Congress has been silent. Had Obama done anything remotely like this in the span of a week they'd be hard at work to overturn his actions at any angle possible.


I can't disagree with you on that. I have close friends and university classmates getting hemmed up in this. It's definitely a mess for those with green cards and those on the path to attain them and isn't the warm welcome these people deserve to receive. Nobody with any sense of empathy likes to see that, or the vitriol being directed towards the Muslim community.

With that said I feel like labeling it a Muslim ban (which is something Trump brought upon himself with his rhetoric) doesn't quite capture the legitimate nature of the threat that Obama warned about from these particular countries in question.


I don't think that the threat should be downplayed, which is why the country has stringent vetting on people we allow to come over here. I am not sympathetic to Islamist extremists. I hate them because I think they're cowards who attack soft targets and target their own people or use them as shields. But I am empathetic to refugees who haven't done anything wrong, and I am empathetic to our legal residents and green card holders who come here, live peacefully, and in turn get treated like trash by Trump and wrongfully disparaged by his rabid white nationalist followers. My family members are immigrants turned citizens, it's sick to see people who have done all the right things to come here and make a better lives for themselves being treated like dogs. It also makes it clear to me, that the whole "we don't hate immigrants, just illegals" argument was a bunch of crap.

But to try and paint it as anything but a Muslim ban, when his rhetoric and comments actually lend credence to that, I'm trying to find out where the disconnect is here. What makes you think, personally, that this isn't a Muslim targeted ban? This is exactly what he said he'd do months ago (which I honestly didn't think he was crazy enough to execute so haphazardly, but I gave him waaaay too much credit).
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