Nets Going Forward: Planning for Next Season

[vincecarter4pres]

For the price though, I'm intrigued with the idea of Porter or Oladipo. They are younger than Jrue, and shouldn't cost as much via trade. We may be able to buy low on them based on injury-prone seasons and being in a walk year, and either of them could be multi- positional lockdown dudes.

I'd have to say absolutely no to this.

Porter's defense has always been immensely overrated and exaggerated and he's lost a step athletically from the average one he was.

Dipo as a player overall has been overrated as well and his defense has been average or so since all the injuries and overall he's looked terrible coming back this year.

I wouldn't mind either on the cheap, but compared to getting Jrue it's not close. It's like comparing a used M3 in near perfect shape to a used Hyundai Elantra Sport that has never been properly maintained and has 100k extra miles, and a used Honda Civic Si that was used on Autocross courses every weekend for 2 years and every time it had an accident or broke down, it was repaired by a suspect backyard mechanic with crappy budget aftermarket parts.

Like sure, for the right price those 2 could be fun beaters and if you're lucky, reliable, but they're not even in the same conversation. You want the thoroughbred you pony up for the Bimmer.

Sim simma!:)

Otto's athleticism is not the driving force behind his above average defense. He's long, smart and knows angles. Similar to Tayshaun, he'll be able to lock down opponents of all sizes for several more years, despite not having elite run-jump ability. Also, his shooting splits and razor-thin usage would be perfect. He be our Danny Green, only a decade younger.

You're right, Dipo hasn't looked good defensively since his injury. Even his offense hadn't come all the way back. That's why he'd be a buy-low investment.

In a vacuum, sure, I would prefer my BMW over a Civic. But the beamer would cost us Dinwiddie, Allen and the #19 pick at minimum. The Civic may only cost us Dinwiddie and Prince. I'd rather park my beat-up commuter car in the garage of my mansion, than sell my house to live out of a luxury vehicle.

Eh, KD and Kyrie are the mansion, Allen and the 19 are the jet ski and the dirt bike haha.

I don't mean to minimize Allen, cause i love him for the long term potential and like him a lot as a current product, but if you're talking the difference between getting Jrue to either of Dipo or Porter is him and the 19, personally I'm going for Jrue every time.

If you told me Jrue cost Dinwiddie/Allen/19/'21 1st, but Dipo only cost Prince and the 19, then you'd have my attention. Still probably go for Jrue though and try signing his brother for the MLE.

[ProspectPark]

To me, based off those minimal attempts, it looks like he has good shot selection. I mean he's essentially taken a contested 3 about once every 5 games over the last 3 years, even though he's averaged over 5 shots from deep a game during that same period.

Maybe I'm crazy though?

He takes half an attempt per game when there is a defender within 2-4 feet. So he takes one contested 3 every two games. In order for him to shoot at league average, he needs 6 plus feet of free space.

Now in his whole career (10 years) he’s literally never played even one meaningful game so all these shots are low pressure.

I'm sorry, but it's impossible to discuss Jrue Holiday with you. We're all entitled to our own opinions, but you go rogue so often on this guy lol.

He's been to the playoffs 4 times in his career, into the 2nd round twice and was an absolute beast 2 seasons ago vs Portland.

And great, he still has good shot selection and yes, he's below average on these shots when he's highly contested. No one wants him jacking up 30 footers with 8 on the shot clock with a defender draped on him anyway when you have guys like Kyrie, KD, Harris and others to do that for you. Let alone there will be tons of open 3's on this team. Let alone that no one has every claimed he's a very good shooter, nor comparing him to the elite of the elite in guys like Kyrie, Klay and the very good like Lowry and FVV. Most have said he's an average 3 point shooter and good when open.

This is becoming pretty strawman again.

Highly contested?

He shoots in the low 30’s on open shots (closest defender 4-6 feet). Since when are open shots “highly contested”?

And yea, people were arguing that he’s a very good shooter. He’s not.

Sorry but not interested in letting a 31 year old undersized SG who can’t shoot hold us hostage in free agency. Definitely not interested in trading Dinwiddie who is the heart and soul of our team for him.

[vincecarter4pres]

He takes half an attempt per game when there is a defender within 2-4 feet. So he takes one contested 3 every two games. In order for him to shoot at league average, he needs 6 plus feet of free space.

Now in his whole career (10 years) he’s literally never played even one meaningful game so all these shots are low pressure.

I'm sorry, but it's impossible to discuss Jrue Holiday with you. We're all entitled to our own opinions, but you go rogue so often on this guy lol.

He's been to the playoffs 4 times in his career, into the 2nd round twice and was an absolute beast 2 seasons ago vs Portland.

And great, he still has good shot selection and yes, he's below average on these shots when he's highly contested. No one wants him jacking up 30 footers with 8 on the shot clock with a defender draped on him anyway when you have guys like Kyrie, KD, Harris and others to do that for you. Let alone there will be tons of open 3's on this team. Let alone that no one has every claimed he's a very good shooter, nor comparing him to the elite of the elite in guys like Kyrie, Klay and the very good like Lowry and FVV. Most have said he's an average 3 point shooter and good when open.

This is becoming pretty strawman again.

Highly contested?

He shoots in the low 30’s on open shots. Since when are open shots “highly contested”?

And yea, people were arguing that he’s a very good shooter. He’s not.

Sorry but not interested in letting a 31 year old undersized SG who can’t shoot hold us hostage in free agency. Definitely not interested in trading Dinwiddie who is the heart and soul of our team for him.

[MGrand15]

If I'm the Pelicans, LeVert + Allen for Jrue or even LeVert, Allen, Prince for Jrue and JJ are absolute no brainers. I don't see how they turn that down or get anything better. It fits their timeline perfectly. JA is already a good starting center. Caris is the type of playmaking 2 who would be good next to Ball + has good upside.

Teams usually screw up and try to rush into contention when they have a star like Zion though. They should be focused on peaking in 2-3 years.

I think it's totally on Marks and how he sees LeVert and JA.

Here's my question: Pelicans have Hayes on a rookie deal, Allen will need to be paid soon. I don't see how that works for them.

LeVert yes. They need another scorer.

he is already probably better than allen with a higher ceiling and cheaper. allen would need to go to a third team. Levert is a bad fit, he wouldnt get the touches/usage needed to have value there

i think it could work, but you need a 3rd team to take our pieces and send value to NO

Jaxson Hayes has proven literally nothing. He barely got meaningful minutes on a lottery team full of injuries. He dunks, doesn't rebound, or play defense. Allen is undeniably better right now. Not sure what you're thinking with that one but it's good to know you're off the JA train.

If that's how you feel about our pieces and their fit with NO, the trade is 100% unrealistic.

[MGrand15]

If I'm the Pelicans, LeVert + Allen for Jrue or even LeVert, Allen, Prince for Jrue and JJ are absolute no brainers. I don't see how they turn that down or get anything better. It fits their timeline perfectly. JA is already a good starting center. Caris is the type of playmaking 2 who would be good next to Ball + has good upside.

Teams usually screw up and try to rush into contention when they have a star like Zion though. They should be focused on peaking in 2-3 years.

I think it's totally on Marks and how he sees LeVert and JA.

Here's my question: Pelicans have Hayes on a rookie deal, Allen will need to be paid soon. I don't see how that works for them.

LeVert yes. They need another scorer.

I don't really see the problem with Hayes and Allen. JA is a legit good starting C right now and he's only 22. Hayes is still a project who might just be an energy guy. Is it bad that they could potentially lock JA up for 3-4 years in his prime?

If the goal is to keep the cap 100% clean and go for a star in free agency, we don't have anything to offer them. Not a terrible strategy but New Orleans banking on a big free agent signing is a gamble - even with Zion.

[Prokorov]

I've warmed to the idea of Jrue. He's a first class person, a great leader and locker room presence and is probably ready for a contending environment. We have discussed his middling shooting splits, but he's going to have better looks as a 3rd option.

I liken the combination of him and Kyrie to Thomas and Dumars. Joe wasn't tall either, but long, smart and determined as a defender of anyone 1 through 3. Holiday has the same mentality and versatility. If he becomes a 38% shooter from 3 in a reduced role, great. But even if he doesn't, he adds a ton of value.

FWIW, I don't think we would need to offer him a max deal in order to keep him. It may be 3 years, $84mil or something, but as many 2021 free agents as are available, I think we could retain him without getting into a bidding war.

Putting that much money into 3 players long term seems like a dumb idea though.

We all agree we need some defensive pieces. Why not invest in a couple players through the draft, trade, FA which give us some versatility.

Makes more sense than betting the farm on Holiday.

because we have a 2 year window to win a title with a top 3 player in his prime. its been 20 years since we had the last top 3-ish player with prime kidd. it may be another 20 years before we see the next one. you dont pass on that so you can "keep the farm" when the farm is a bunch of bench/role players and C level prospects/picks.

dinwiddie/levert/allen/kurucs/musa/claxton and non lotto picks are extremely replaceable.

[Prokorov]

Just have to say this too... had little to do today and wound up randomly throwing on NBATV. They had reruns of a bunch of Pels games from this season pre-bubble. Boston and Portland were two of them, think there was a third vs Houston. And so I really watched both of the former two and man does Jrue look just as good as I remembered on defense. The guy is a beast. He's smart, athletically gifted, has the length, the strength and he digs in, like you can tell he takes it personal to dig in on that end. And when he's off the court, the difference was just dramatic. The eye test always backs up the stats on this guy. And on offense he's always in motion, on and off ball and is a totally underrated and gifted passer. Good rebounder for a guard too.

He is the complete package. defends, mixes it up insside, scores, passes, is unslefish. gets on the floor. he is basically marcus smart with more offense and less likely to get a technical or take a domb shot.

[Prokorov]

Bro, it’s not hard. No one is talking about “wide open” 3’s. you’re the only bringing up wide open shots in a pathetic attempt to backtrack. Classic trump supporter bs. Again, go back and read my posts. No one was talking about wide open.

The facts are simple. If there is a defender within 4-6 feet, Holiday shoots 30% from 3.

Dont you dare f***king call me a trump supporter again. i am not a racist homophobic piece of trash like the garbage that support that man. that has no place in this conversation and you dont know jack about me.

as far as jrue, you cherry picked the minority of his attemps and said he is trash dismissing the larger sample. you said he cant hit an open shot but threw away wide open shots. are wide open shots not open shots?

bottom line. jrue shot 35% on 5 attemps. league average percentage on above avg volume. you tried to punk everyone with stats but then realized this isnt the GB.

[Prokorov]

Sorry but not interested in letting a 31 year old undersized SG who can’t shoot hold us hostage in free agency. Definitely not interested in trading Dinwiddie who is the heart and soul of our team for him.

he isnt 31.

[Prokorov]

Here's my question: Pelicans have Hayes on a rookie deal, Allen will need to be paid soon. I don't see how that works for them.

LeVert yes. They need another scorer.

he is already probably better than allen with a higher ceiling and cheaper. allen would need to go to a third team. Levert is a bad fit, he wouldnt get the touches/usage needed to have value there

i think it could work, but you need a 3rd team to take our pieces and send value to NO

Jaxson Hayes has proven literally nothing. He barely got meaningful minutes on a lottery team full of injuries. He dunks, doesn't rebound, or play defense. Allen is undeniably better right now. Not sure what you're thinking with that one but it's good to know you're off the JA train.

If that's how you feel about our pieces and their fit with NO, the trade is 100% unrealistic.

I love allen. but im also objective and am not going to drastically overrate our players. The center position is not really valued unless its someone with a rare combination of size and skill who can space the floor and play all-nba defense. otherwise teams dont invest much there and typically just go with a low level role man or go small with a PF playing center who can stretch the floor and handle smalls defensively

-Allen is a pending free agent. that always diminishes a players value via trade.
-Allen doesnt shoot threes. makes him less attractive to many teams
-Allen doesnt have elite size/play elite defense

allen is a really good player. he is solid on both ends and he knows his role. he still has some ceiling too.

A trade with NO is 100% unrealistic. it would need to be a 3 or 4 team trade. none of our pieces fit the pelicans. They dont need allen nor does it make sense to pay him. Levert also makes littles sense for them when they have ingram, ball, and have alexander-walker looking to contribute next year. Dinwiddie similar doesn really make sense.

a trade with NO would likely need to be centered around #19, 2021, 2023 picks. that or re routing another teams assets.

if NO was interested in those players a deal likely would have happened already

[ProspectPark]

Bro, it’s not hard. No one is talking about “wide open” 3’s. you’re the only bringing up wide open shots in a pathetic attempt to backtrack. Classic trump supporter bs. Again, go back and read my posts. No one was talking about wide open.

The facts are simple. If there is a defender within 4-6 feet, Holiday shoots 30% from 3.

Dont you dare f***king call me a trump supporter again. i am not a racist homophobic piece of trash like the garbage that support that man. that has no place in this conversation and you dont know jack about me.

as far as jrue, you cherry picked the minority of his attemps and said he is trash dismissing the larger sample. you said he cant hit an open shot but threw away wide open shots. are wide open shots not open shots?

bottom line. jrue shot 35% on 5 attemps. league average percentage on above avg volume. you tried to punk everyone with stats but then realized this isnt the GB.

NBA.com/stats classifies shots as “open” and “wide open”...don’t get mad at me because you don’t know the difference.

I’m using their terminology. Open = closest defender within 4-6 feet.

[Prokorov]

If I'm the Pelicans, LeVert + Allen for Jrue or even LeVert, Allen, Prince for Jrue and JJ are absolute no brainers. I don't see how they turn that down or get anything better. It fits their timeline perfectly. JA is already a good starting center. Caris is the type of playmaking 2 who would be good next to Ball + has good upside.

Teams usually screw up and try to rush into contention when they have a star like Zion though. They should be focused on peaking in 2-3 years.

I think it's totally on Marks and how he sees LeVert and JA.

Here's my question: Pelicans have Hayes on a rookie deal, Allen will need to be paid soon. I don't see how that works for them.

LeVert yes. They need another scorer.

I don't really see the problem with Hayes and Allen. JA is a legit good starting C right now and he's only 22. Hayes is still a project who might just be an energy guy. Is it bad that they could potentially lock JA up for 3-4 years in his prime?

If the goal is to keep the cap 100% clean and go for a star in free agency, we don't have anything to offer them. Not a terrible strategy but New Orleans banking on a big free agent signing is a gamble - even with Zion.

its not about saving cap for a big free agent. Ingram is due a contract and will need the max/near max. Lonzo is due an extension. They will have to plan to give zion a max extension down the road. Favors is due a contract.

You dont trade for allen and give him money when you have hayes... and if you do want allen you wait a year, see how hayes looks and then sign allen as a FA without having to trade an asset for him. and they go with favors/zion at the 5 alot, its not like they need 2 traditional bigs who dont shoot.

[Prokorov]

Bro, it’s not hard. No one is talking about “wide open” 3’s. you’re the only bringing up wide open shots in a pathetic attempt to backtrack. Classic trump supporter bs. Again, go back and read my posts. No one was talking about wide open.

The facts are simple. If there is a defender within 4-6 feet, Holiday shoots 30% from 3.

Dont you dare f***king call me a trump supporter again. i am not a racist homophobic piece of trash like the garbage that support that man. that has no place in this conversation and you dont know jack about me.

as far as jrue, you cherry picked the minority of his attemps and said he is trash dismissing the larger sample. you said he cant hit an open shot but threw away wide open shots. are wide open shots not open shots?

bottom line. jrue shot 35% on 5 attemps. league average percentage on above avg volume. you tried to punk everyone with stats but then realized this isnt the GB.

NBA.com/stats classifies shots as “open” and “wide open”...don’t get mad at me because you don’t know the difference.

I’m using their terminology. Open = closest defender within 4-6 feet.

yes we are aware that you cherry picked a range where he does not take the majority of his shots, while ignoring:
1) the range he takes the majority of his shots and shot 40%
2) his overall percentage at all ranges where he shot 35%

so basically if you ignore his overall shooting and his shooting in his most frequent situations then he cant shoot.

[ProspectPark]

Sorry but not interested in letting a 31 year old undersized SG who can’t shoot hold us hostage in free agency. Definitely not interested in trading Dinwiddie who is the heart and soul of our team for him.

he isnt 31.

He was born on June 12, 1990

In free agency 2021, how old will he be?

[ProspectPark]

Dont you dare f***king call me a trump supporter again. i am not a racist homophobic piece of trash like the garbage that support that man. that has no place in this conversation and you dont know jack about me.

as far as jrue, you cherry picked the minority of his attemps and said he is trash dismissing the larger sample. you said he cant hit an open shot but threw away wide open shots. are wide open shots not open shots?

bottom line. jrue shot 35% on 5 attemps. league average percentage on above avg volume. you tried to punk everyone with stats but then realized this isnt the GB.

NBA.com/stats classifies shots as “open” and “wide open”...don’t get mad at me because you don’t know the difference.

I’m using their terminology. Open = closest defender within 4-6 feet.

yes we are aware that you cherry picked a range where he does not take the majority of his shots, while ignoring:
1) the range he takes the majority of his shots and shot 40%
2) his overall percentage at all ranges where he shot 35%

so basically if you ignore his overall shooting and his shooting in his most frequent situations then he cant shoot.

In the playoff against elite defenses, I don’t need a SG that needs 6+ feet of open space to hit a 3.

Holiday 3 point percentage when closest defender is within 4-6 feet:

2019-2020 - 32% on 2.5 attempts
2018-2019 - 30.3% on 2.1 attempts
2017-2018 - 31.3% on 1.6 attempts

These are types of shots he will get in the playoffs.

[Prokorov]

Sorry but not interested in letting a 31 year old undersized SG who can’t shoot hold us hostage in free agency. Definitely not interested in trading Dinwiddie who is the heart and soul of our team for him.

he isnt 31.

He was born on June 12, 1990

In free agency 2021, how old will he be?

how old will jason tatum be in free agency of 2028?

you said he was 30. he is not.

[ProspectPark]

he isnt 31.

He was born on June 12, 1990

In free agency 2021, how old will he be?

how old will jason tatum be in free agency of 2028?

you said he was 30. he is not.

How old will be in in free agency 2021?

[Prokorov]

NBA.com/stats classifies shots as “open” and “wide open”...don’t get mad at me because you don’t know the difference.

I’m using their terminology. Open = closest defender within 4-6 feet.

yes we are aware that you cherry picked a range where he does not take the majority of his shots, while ignoring:
1) the range he takes the majority of his shots and shot 40%
2) his overall percentage at all ranges where he shot 35%

so basically if you ignore his overall shooting and his shooting in his most frequent situations then he cant shoot.

In the playoff against elite defenses, I don’t need a SG that needs 6+ feet of open space to hit a 3.

Holiday 3 point percentage when closest defender is within 4-6 feet:

2019-2020 - 32% on 2.5 attempts
2018-2019 - 30.3% on 2.1 attempts
2017-2018 - 31.3% on 1.6 attempts

These are types of shots he will get in the playoffs.

there will be plenty of wide open 3s with KD/Kyrie on the flloor

and in the playoffs you need a guy who cna lock up, and jrue is the best at that

[MrDollarBills]

I've warmed to the idea of Jrue. He's a first class person, a great leader and locker room presence and is probably ready for a contending environment. We have discussed his middling shooting splits, but he's going to have better looks as a 3rd option.

I liken the combination of him and Kyrie to Thomas and Dumars. Joe wasn't tall either, but long, smart and determined as a defender of anyone 1 through 3. Holiday has the same mentality and versatility. If he becomes a 38% shooter from 3 in a reduced role, great. But even if he doesn't, he adds a ton of value.

FWIW, I don't think we would need to offer him a max deal in order to keep him. It may be 3 years, $84mil or something, but as many 2021 free agents as are available, I think we could retain him without getting into a bidding war.

I don't think Jrue Holiday is commanding a max deal in this climate, or even a pre covid climate. He's an excellent player but not in the 30 mil a year range. I can see him signing a reasonable extension

[MrDollarBills]

If I'm the Pelicans, LeVert + Allen for Jrue or even LeVert, Allen, Prince for Jrue and JJ are absolute no brainers. I don't see how they turn that down or get anything better. It fits their timeline perfectly. JA is already a good starting center. Caris is the type of playmaking 2 who would be good next to Ball + has good upside.

Teams usually screw up and try to rush into contention when they have a star like Zion though. They should be focused on peaking in 2-3 years.

I think it's totally on Marks and how he sees LeVert and JA.

Here's my question: Pelicans have Hayes on a rookie deal, Allen will need to be paid soon. I don't see how that works for them.

LeVert yes. They need another scorer.

I don't really see the problem with Hayes and Allen. JA is a legit good starting C right now and he's only 22. Hayes is still a project who might just be an energy guy. Is it bad that they could potentially lock JA up for 3-4 years in his prime?

If the goal is to keep the cap 100% clean and go for a star in free agency, we don't have anything to offer them. Not a terrible strategy but New Orleans banking on a big free agent signing is a gamble - even with Zion.

New Orleans would be foolish to push their chips on the table towards free agency. Small market clubs need to get better through the draft and via trade. If I was a veteran star, I wouldn't want to risk going to NO with how uncertain Zion's career outlook is.

Hayes is 19 so I would figure new orleans would give him some time. His numbers as a rookie aren't bad at all, i think he's got a good ceiling and they may want to throw him in the fire next season with Favors probably bolting for greener pastures.

But, this is all conjecture on my part. I really don't know what NO's plans are.