The Official Should We Have Signed Thad Thread

[Hello Brooklyn]

lol @ playing what ifs. You go right on ahead. History shows your plan never works...especially for the NETS.

Youre going back to scenario that didn't work and Im showing you how they could have worked if we didn't give it all up to make trades and build a **** team.

Yea my plan never works. That's why 99% of NBA Champions followed it. You right. Lets go with your joke of a plan of building around Brook Lopez and Young. Lebron is scared now!

Oh for god's sake, 99% of NBA Champions are comprised of 8 Teams, if your method was that simple the parity in the NBA would be the stuff of legend are you nuts? The Clippers, Kings, and Nets, three of the league's historically worst franchises, haven't won jack **** and have had tons of lottery picks. Your argument is so flawed its laughable at this point.

And now you're starting to argue strawmen. No one said "build around" Brook and Thad. Build a roster with them on the team? Sure, why not. Pieces to a puzzle. Gotta try something...again, if the NBA's draft and draft order were on par with the NFL's where the worst team gets exactly the pick they deserve and there are studs sitting there for taking for damn near every pick of the round...sure, build through the draft. but that's not the case.

I also posted a list of our lottery picks over the last 20 years. Funny how not one of those picks were superstar players....but yet to you, its just that simple, right? Our franchise's best two players outside of Dr. J are Jason Kidd and Vince Carter...both acquired VIA TRADE.

The Clippers, Kings, and Nets are poorly managed franchises. Theres a lot of poorly managed franchises out there. I fail to see your point.

The Warriors sucked for the past 40 years and were considered a joke until the last few years. Things can turn around pretty quickly.

So youre not building around Brook Lopez when hes being paid 21 million a year? You have to build around him. Hes the franchise player, hes the leader of the team. The foundation of this team right now is Lopez. And to me thats not gonna work.

We drafted badly. That doesn't mean drafting is the problem. Maybe we should start drafting better. And not be managed so poorly.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Now lets see how our team has done in the lottery in the last 20 years.

Net Lottery picks since 1995:

Ed O'Bannon (F Tier player)

Kerry Kittles (C-Tier player)

Tim Thomas(C Tier player), traded for Keith Van Horn(C-Tier Player)

Kenyon Martin (C Tier player)

Eddie Griffin (F-Tier player), traded for Richard Jefferson (C-Tier player) and Jason Collins (D Tier player).

Brook Lopez (B Tier player, and this is debatable due to Brook's injury history and inconsistent aggressiveness over the years)

Terrence Williams (F Tier player and a complete jackass of a human being)

Derrick Favors(C Tier player)

That's not very encouraging. 1 Borderline B tier player, a crapload of C Tier players, and two absolute busts.

Again HB...how come those picks didn't land franchise superstars? What happened???

I thought drafting Kenyon Martin worked out. In fact I think it was the reason that we were able to become a contender for the first time in franchise history. With Kenyon we were able to build a good foundation to bring in Kidd and compete for a championship.

If not for poor management I think we had a pretty good window to do it too.

[Prokorov]

Now lets see how our team has done in the lottery in the last 20 years.

Net Lottery picks since 1995:

Ed O'Bannon (F Tier player)

Kerry Kittles (C-Tier player)

Tim Thomas(C Tier player), traded for Keith Van Horn(C-Tier Player)

Kenyon Martin (C Tier player)

Eddie Griffin (F-Tier player), traded for Richard Jefferson (C-Tier player) and Jason Collins (D Tier player).

Brook Lopez (B Tier player, and this is debatable due to Brook's injury history and inconsistent aggressiveness over the years)

Terrence Williams (F Tier player and a complete jackass of a human being)

Derrick Favors(C Tier player)

That's not very encouraging. 1 Borderline B tier player, a crapload of C Tier players, and two absolute busts.

Again HB...how come those picks didn't land franchise superstars? What happened???

I thought drafting Kenyon Martin worked out. In fact I think it was the reason that we were able to become a contender for the first time in franchise history. With Kenyon we were able to build a good foundation to bring in Kidd and compete for a championship.

If not for poor management I think we had a pretty good window to do it too.

kenyon was a good one, but he wasnt a big part of it. getting a league MVP calibur player in jason kidd was the reason. and even then you are talking about just a 50 win team it what at the time was a really weak conference.

Kenyon was good, but we are talking about a 1 time all-star, and a fringe one at that. if we got the reincarnation of kenyon martin, that isnt leading us anywhere. also, kenyon didnt lure kidd, we didnt even sign kidd, we traded marbury for him.

jason kidd was an absolute stud. he could have went to basically any eastern team during that time and led them to contention

[Prokorov]

See you say that, but look at teams stuck in the losing cycle because they followed that mentality. You really think Kings fans are super happy with the trajectory of things?

It's all a big trade off, and obviously no one is shooting down the idea that drafting a star is wonderful and probably a key to a championship... But it's just unrealistic to be like, "lose, find star, win, get more players, win championship" rarely does that ever pan out, if one part of that cycle breaks it all falls apart. In the mean time if we focus on staying relevant and building slowly through the picks we have and can acquire, the signings we can make and a steady stream of smart trades... I think we become a more respectable team and a more enjoyable team.

I'd rather be the Griz than the Kings

Yes drafting is important, but so is everything else. So you can't just say, "you're doing it all wrong!" ,"Lose for a star! Then we'll be a great team"

There's a lot more to team building than just drafting the "star"


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Speaking of the Kings, remember when they were for a time a Western Conference powerhouse?

Do you know how many of the core players of that team were drafted in the top 10? NONE. Peja, Hedo, Gerald Wallace were picked 14th, 16th, and 25th. Webber, Bibby, Divac and Christie were all acquired via trades. Yet, they were a legit contender. They've been bottom feeding since then and have little to show for it out of DMC...who is going to BOLT.

The fallacy of the "tank for a superstar" argument assumes that 1st rd picks carry immense value. In reality, they are all crap shoots. This isn't the NFL where the likelihood of drafting STUD players within the first 32 picks are extremely high. No brainer, franchise changing, "best player in the world" guys like Lebron and Davis aren't in every draft. They are rare. Nets have had several lottery picks over the last 20 years and the best players in modern franchise history, outside of K-Mart and Lopez, were all acquired via trade.

But did they win a championship though?

what team in the last 30 years has won a title without having signed/traded for a superstar?

spurs, warriors, and mavs?

thats basically it.

plus, drafting a superstar is basically impossible. they come along once or twice a decade and it takes more luck then anything to land them

[Zachbretton]

Speaking of the Kings, remember when they were for a time a Western Conference powerhouse?

Do you know how many of the core players of that team were drafted in the top 10? NONE. Peja, Hedo, Gerald Wallace were picked 14th, 16th, and 25th. Webber, Bibby, Divac and Christie were all acquired via trades. Yet, they were a legit contender. They've been bottom feeding since then and have little to show for it out of DMC...who is going to BOLT.

The fallacy of the "tank for a superstar" argument assumes that 1st rd picks carry immense value. In reality, they are all crap shoots. This isn't the NFL where the likelihood of drafting STUD players within the first 32 picks are extremely high. No brainer, franchise changing, "best player in the world" guys like Lebron and Davis aren't in every draft. They are rare. Nets have had several lottery picks over the last 20 years and the best players in modern franchise history, outside of K-Mart and Lopez, were all acquired via trade.

But did they win a championship though?

what team in the last 30 years has won a title without having signed/traded for a superstar?

spurs, warriors, and mavs?

thats basically it.

plus, drafting a superstar is basically impossible. they come along once or twice a decade and it takes more luck then anything to land them

There's no reasoning with him. Let's move on.

To a more important point, I'm interested to see Thads 3pt percentage this upcoming season.

In his time with us he shot pretty well, but my hope is that's a product of the system and not just a fluke. His shot behind the arc could prove useful in a team lost in shooting.

Overall, I like his play and feel he fits well with us, I just hope he comes in next season just as aggressive







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[Hello Brooklyn]

Again HB...how come those picks didn't land franchise superstars? What happened???

I thought drafting Kenyon Martin worked out. In fact I think it was the reason that we were able to become a contender for the first time in franchise history. With Kenyon we were able to build a good foundation to bring in Kidd and compete for a championship.

If not for poor management I think we had a pretty good window to do it too.

kenyon was a good one, but he wasnt a big part of it. getting a league MVP calibur player in jason kidd was the reason. and even then you are talking about just a 50 win team it what at the time was a really weak conference.

Kenyon was good, but we are talking about a 1 time all-star, and a fringe one at that. if we got the reincarnation of kenyon martin, that isnt leading us anywhere. also, kenyon didnt lure kidd, we didnt even sign kidd, we traded marbury for him.

jason kidd was an absolute stud. he could have went to basically any eastern team during that time and led them to contention

Of course he was a big part of it. He was the second best player on the team. He provided the foundation for the team when Kidd came here to pair him with all-star.

I love Kidd but no he wasn't turning any team into a EC contender.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Speaking of the Kings, remember when they were for a time a Western Conference powerhouse?

Do you know how many of the core players of that team were drafted in the top 10? NONE. Peja, Hedo, Gerald Wallace were picked 14th, 16th, and 25th. Webber, Bibby, Divac and Christie were all acquired via trades. Yet, they were a legit contender. They've been bottom feeding since then and have little to show for it out of DMC...who is going to BOLT.

The fallacy of the "tank for a superstar" argument assumes that 1st rd picks carry immense value. In reality, they are all crap shoots. This isn't the NFL where the likelihood of drafting STUD players within the first 32 picks are extremely high. No brainer, franchise changing, "best player in the world" guys like Lebron and Davis aren't in every draft. They are rare. Nets have had several lottery picks over the last 20 years and the best players in modern franchise history, outside of K-Mart and Lopez, were all acquired via trade.

But did they win a championship though?

what team in the last 30 years has won a title without having signed/traded for a superstar?

spurs, warriors, and mavs?

thats basically it.

plus, drafting a superstar is basically impossible. they come along once or twice a decade and it takes more luck then anything to land them

The criteria of having drafted or traded a star is pretty stupid, because almost everyone tries to do that. Sure you may have to trade and sign a star. But you also have to draft one first.

[Prokorov]

Nobody is saying that just drafting a star is enough to win a championship. But it is the foundation you need to build a championship team.

The odds are low, but its the only way to do it.

i disagree i think you can sign or trade for a superstar and have that foundation as well. it doesnt matter how you get the susperstars, just how you get them. and now it seems guys like to team up. drafting a star is probably the hardest thing to do in the NBA. you could have the #1 pick 3 years in a row and be unlikely to land a superstar

Can you provide examples of NBA Championship teams doing this? Because I can't.

I just don't think its feasible because superstar player usually don't sign with bad teams or ask for trades to bad teams unless they already have other superstars there.

And if they do, those teams are usually not very successful.

how did the laker get shaq?

how did the pistons get ben and rasheed and rip and billups?

how did the heat get bosh and lebron?

How did the heat get shaq?

how did the celtics get Allen and KG?

How did the lakers get Pau?

You can say all those teams didnt win without drafting a star (kobe/Pierce/Wade) but you can also say that all of those teams traded for or signed a star.

It is rare for a team to be able to win a title by drafting a star. the spurs did it, but where able to do so by being ahead of the curve on the international players and had the tank year for duncan when d-rob got hurt. other then that you are basically going back to MJ's bulls.

[Prokorov]

I'm just saying we had a legitimate chance to do so. And if we kept going on that path then maybe in 2011 or 2012 we could have gotten that superstar player. Its definitely possible.

I guess your definition of "legitimate chance" is different then mine. lets just take a look at some factors.

the team with the worst record has a 25% chance of winning the #1 pick in the lottery.

There is a superstar player in what, every 3 drafts or so? so there is a 33% chance there is the star in the draft

Then you have to factor in that the best player in the draft doesnt always turn out to be the guy drafted #1. lets call it a 1/4 chance that the guy taken #1 doesnt turn out to be the best player. so 75% chance that if you do pick first that the players turns out to be the drafts best player.

when you do the math .25(chance of getting #1) *.33(chance a superstar is in the draft) * .75(odds the guy you take at #1 is the best player in that draft) = .06

So basically, in any given draft where you have the WORST record, you have about a 6% chance of getting a superstar. lets say you put the chances of us signing kevin durant super low. say 1%. that really isnt much less likely, and you dont have to throw away seasons for it.

just look at the cavs, sixers, kings, and wolves as recent examples.

the cavs had lotto pick after lotto pick after #1 pick after #1 pick and really had nothing to show for it until lebron decided to bail them out. Irving, waiters, thompson, bennett, wiggins. not really much to show with 4 #1 overall selections.

Then there is the sixers. they already had to let MCW go as he is due moeny next year and they hadnt had time to evaluate him. they will need to make the same decision on nerlens noel next season as he will be due money and they again likely wouldnt have had time to evaluate him and determine if he is worth huge money. they are still waiting on embidds debut. saric is still overseas.

5 super high lotto picks. 3 of them havent played an NBA game, and the one who was rookie of the year was shipped out. if embiid and okafor are both huge stars, they are still at least 2-3 years away from being a 50+ win type team. if they can even keep them all and get the right veterans to fall in place.

building through the draft is something you do organically, not something you purposely do

[Prokorov]

This is like arguing with an 8 year old.

So the plan is to just draft the next MJ or LeBron. That makes sooooooo much sense except that

1. Those guys come around once a decade

2. You cant guarantee by tanking that you can get the #1 pick.

So outside of this make believe world Hello Brooklyn lives in, can we get back to serious discussions.

Doesn' have to be MJ or Lebron. Could be Steph Curry or Dirk Nowitzki or Paul Pierce.

If you can draft a superstar and surround him with talent, you have a legitimate chance to win a championship. No they don't come around once a decade.

But sure lets focus on your idea of pretending Brook Lopez is capable of leading us to a championship. Come back to reality man.

you can also trade/sign a superstar and then surround them with talent. draft is much tougher to find that guy. way too much luck inolved

[Prokorov]

I thought drafting Kenyon Martin worked out. In fact I think it was the reason that we were able to become a contender for the first time in franchise history. With Kenyon we were able to build a good foundation to bring in Kidd and compete for a championship.

If not for poor management I think we had a pretty good window to do it too.

kenyon was a good one, but he wasnt a big part of it. getting a league MVP calibur player in jason kidd was the reason. and even then you are talking about just a 50 win team it what at the time was a really weak conference.

Kenyon was good, but we are talking about a 1 time all-star, and a fringe one at that. if we got the reincarnation of kenyon martin, that isnt leading us anywhere. also, kenyon didnt lure kidd, we didnt even sign kidd, we traded marbury for him.

jason kidd was an absolute stud. he could have went to basically any eastern team during that time and led them to contention

Of course he was a big part of it. He was the second best player on the team. He provided the foundation for the team when Kidd came here to pair him with all-star.

I love Kidd but no he wasn't turning any team into a EC contender.

kenyon didnt build anything. he was a rookie on a 26 win nets team before kidd showed up. Kidd came in, played like an MVP, was 1st team all nba and turned that team into a 50 win team. martin was a 14/5 player that year. not some difference maker. Kidd was the difference maker and van horn was easily the 2nd best player on that team year 1 of kidd.

You are really overvaluing what a 1 timer frnge all-star did. he was a fan favorite and we all loved him but he really was just an excellent role player. not some force.

Kidd was the beast on that team. take kidd off and those go back to 20-30 win teams. put kidd on any tema other then maybe the bulls and cavs and they win 50 games.... and there are several teams kidd could have went to that would have won a ton more then the nets did.

[MrDollarBills]

I thought drafting Kenyon Martin worked out. In fact I think it was the reason that we were able to become a contender for the first time in franchise history. With Kenyon we were able to build a good foundation to bring in Kidd and compete for a championship.

If not for poor management I think we had a pretty good window to do it too.

kenyon was a good one, but he wasnt a big part of it. getting a league MVP calibur player in jason kidd was the reason. and even then you are talking about just a 50 win team it what at the time was a really weak conference.

Kenyon was good, but we are talking about a 1 time all-star, and a fringe one at that. if we got the reincarnation of kenyon martin, that isnt leading us anywhere. also, kenyon didnt lure kidd, we didnt even sign kidd, we traded marbury for him.

jason kidd was an absolute stud. he could have went to basically any eastern team during that time and led them to contention

Of course he was a big part of it. He was the second best player on the team. He provided the foundation for the team when Kidd came here to pair him with all-star.

I love Kidd but no he wasn't turning any team into a EC contender.

What????????????

Now I don't wanna turn this into an ageist argument but you're 22, correct? You were 7 or 8 when K-Mart was drafted. You may not have fully comprehended or remembered what was going on at that time.

The year that K-Mart, who was a borderline all star to be very honest, started playing with us the Nets went 26-56. That was prior to Jason kidd being dealt to us.

The year when Kidd came here, the Nets were projected to be complete garbage. Kidd came in here, immediately made EVERYONE better, we became a running team(one of the most dynamic running teams in the league, the fast breaks were off the chain) and the nets won 52 GAMES. We were a top 6 team in the league overnight, the top defensive team in the league and went to the NBA Finals. The difference was night and day. Jason Kidd was a A Tier Superstar player, if you can, youtube Game 5 vs. The Indiana Pacers in the 2001-02 playoffs and watch his duel vs. Reggie Miller. The Nets' fast break attack got grounded to a HALT and Kidd went into GOD MODE. We haven't had a player that even comes close to that level since...and we TRADED for him. K-Mart was a building block, but he wasn't an all star nor was he the most important cog. Kittles, RJ, KVH, Harris all played just as big of a part but Kidd made that all work, that team wouldn't make the playoffs if you remove him from the equation.

[MrDollarBills]

Now lets see how our team has done in the lottery in the last 20 years.

Net Lottery picks since 1995:

Ed O'Bannon (F Tier player)

Kerry Kittles (C-Tier player)

Tim Thomas(C Tier player), traded for Keith Van Horn(C-Tier Player)

Kenyon Martin (C Tier player)

Eddie Griffin (F-Tier player), traded for Richard Jefferson (C-Tier player) and Jason Collins (D Tier player).

Brook Lopez (B Tier player, and this is debatable due to Brook's injury history and inconsistent aggressiveness over the years)

Terrence Williams (F Tier player and a complete jackass of a human being)

Derrick Favors(C Tier player)

That's not very encouraging. 1 Borderline B tier player, a crapload of C Tier players, and two absolute busts.

Again HB...how come those picks didn't land franchise superstars? What happened???

I thought drafting Kenyon Martin worked out. In fact I think it was the reason that we were able to become a contender for the first time in franchise history. With Kenyon we were able to build a good foundation to bring in Kidd and compete for a championship.

If not for poor management I think we had a pretty good window to do it too.

Poor management? That argument is seriously flawed. Had the Blazers drafted Michael Jordan over Sam Bowie back in 1984 would you have said the Bulls had bad management, or some bad luck? All of this draft stuff comes down to chance.

The Nets wanted to draft Kobe and were in striking range...but guess what? Bryant wanted to play for the Lakers, it was basically collusion the way the Lakers landed Bryant, you really think that dude was supposed to fall that far? In fact, the Nets were lucky that they drafted Kerry Kittles instead of the garbage that was on the board at the time.

Again, regarding Kenyon...it was a no brainer pick at No. 1. But Kenyon was not a superstar, he was a top shelf roleplayer. He couldn't create his own shot, he was undersized, and he wasn't a great rebounder. It was Jason Kidd who made the difference between 26 wins and 52 wins, not K-Mart.

[SIC]

I am still pissed Thorn didnt try to trade K-Mart for Rasheed or go after KG.

[Prokorov]

I am still pissed Thorn didnt try to trade K-Mart for Rasheed or go after KG.

well, he DID try and trade for rasheed. SEVERAL times. just could never make it work. also pursued KG. again couldnt make it happen.

i think the worst thing to happen in the kidd era was Shareef Abdur Raheem failing his physical after we did a sign and trade for him and his career falling apart. all that team need was a half court wing scorer like SAR. might have been enough to get us past the spurs.

[NyCeEvO]

I am still pissed Thorn didnt try to trade K-Mart for Rasheed or go after KG.

well, he DID try and trade for rasheed. SEVERAL times. just could never make it work. also pursued KG. again couldnt make it happen.

i think the worst thing to happen in the kidd era was Shareef Abdur Raheem failing his physical after we did a sign and trade for him and his career falling apart. all that team need was a half court wing scorer like SAR. might have been enough to get us past the spurs.

Idk if we could've beat the Spurs but I agree that SAR would've been a big plus.

Then again, he already had a torn ACL, right? He didn't last too long after the failed physical. I wonder how much he would've been able to give us and for how long.

[Prokorov]

I am still pissed Thorn didnt try to trade K-Mart for Rasheed or go after KG.

well, he DID try and trade for rasheed. SEVERAL times. just could never make it work. also pursued KG. again couldnt make it happen.

i think the worst thing to happen in the kidd era was Shareef Abdur Raheem failing his physical after we did a sign and trade for him and his career falling apart. all that team need was a half court wing scorer like SAR. might have been enough to get us past the spurs.

Idk if we could've beat the Spurs but I agree that SAR would've been a big plus.

Then again, he already had a torn ACL, right? He didn't last too long after the failed physical. I wonder how much he would've been able to give us and for how long.

no, the torn ACL came a few years later.

instead of being sent to us, he ended up with the kings where he dropped 17/7 and shot 40% from 3. not spectacular, and not the 20/10 guy he was, but still excellent and more to the point EXACTLY the kind of player we needed. a half court threat who could get buckets when the fast break wasnt getting us buckets and a rebounder at SF to help kmart and twin on the glass.

i think he was the missing piece if he could have gotten here and stayed healthy. half court threat and some extra rebounding was all we missed

[MrDollarBills]

I am still pissed Thorn didnt try to trade K-Mart for Rasheed or go after KG.

well, he DID try and trade for rasheed. SEVERAL times. just could never make it work. also pursued KG. again couldnt make it happen.

i think the worst thing to happen in the kidd era was Shareef Abdur Raheem failing his physical after we did a sign and trade for him and his career falling apart. all that team need was a half court wing scorer like SAR. might have been enough to get us past the spurs.

Yep!

To this day I think the Abdur Rahim incident was the death blow for us. Krstic/Abdur-Rahim/Jefferson/Carter/Kidd would have won the east.

[MrDollarBills]

You know what the funny part is? Those were the GOOD ol days. From 01-06 the Nets had a good product, from the Kidd running team to Kidd/Carter/Jefferson. I'd take those two teams over the **** we've seen the last three seasons to be very blunt. I'll never forget that game where Carter was annihilating San Antonio and got kicked out of the game for going after Bruce Bowen when he got his legs taken out. Or the game vs Miami where Carter and Jefferson leveled Alonzo Mourning THREE times in that game with some viscious dunks. Or how about that game vs. Steve Nash's Phoenix Suns. The pace of that game and the highlights were ridiculous, Kidd and Nash were unconscious in that game

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200612070NJN.html

That may be one of the best games offensively I've ever seen from two teams in the modern era. Jesus!!

[Prokorov]

You know what the funny part is? Those were the GOOD ol days. From 01-06 the Nets had a good product, from the Kidd running team to Kidd/Carter/Jefferson. I'd take those two teams over the **** we've seen the last three seasons to be very blunt. I'll never forget that game where Carter was annihilating San Antonio and got kicked out of the game for going after Bruce Bowen when he got his legs taken out. Or the game vs Miami where Carter and Jefferson leveled Alonzo Mourning THREE times in that game with some viscious dunks. Or how about that game vs. Steve Nash's Phoenix Suns. The pace of that game and the highlights were ridiculous, Kidd and Nash were unconscious in that game

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200612070NJN.html

That may be one of the best games offensively I've ever seen from two teams in the modern era. Jesus!!

i remeber that game well. it was on my birthday and i was out with friends at a local bar. kidd to RJ off the backboard for an alley-oop. great game