The Official Allen Crabbe Thread

[Sleepyazn]

Don't even get me started on Crabbe's defense. Holy crap the amount of times he clearly fouls when the shot is already going in is insane. Like why are you constantly creating and 1 for the opposing team.

[kamaze]

He didn't shoot that much in Portland I'm fine with him coming off the bench when Dlo comes back. Stauskas is a good 3pt shooter to go along with AC and Harris. Everyone has a off game what matters most is he made it when they needed it.

Are you guys going to complain about his contract forever? (Prok) It is what it is. The time to complain was years ago Marks is doing a damn good job righting the ship.

Marks is doing an ok job.... but he is handcuffing us to a group of role players... which was fine before they were drastically overpaid role players. we dont have 50 million in cap anymore. i like this core and crabbe fits but you simply cant give a bench shooting role player that kind of money and not have it hurt down the road.

your point on stauskus makes it even more clear. we could have harris AND stauskus for 1/4 of what crabbe makes

people will realize this the next 2 offseasons. check my cap thread

Getting Jahill Okafur, D'Angelo Russell, finding a starter in Dinwiddie and a good role player in Joe Harris is a damn good job considering he didn't have his pick for the next couple of years when he signed on.
You focus on one overpaid player forgetting the 2-3 players he got for peanuts.

You can't have it all now wait till they get their own pick back by then all the contracts will be moot.

You're a hater for not giving Marks credit for what he's done here.

[Prokorov]

He didn't shoot that much in Portland I'm fine with him coming off the bench when Dlo comes back. Stauskas is a good 3pt shooter to go along with AC and Harris. Everyone has a off game what matters most is he made it when they needed it.

Are you guys going to complain about his contract forever? (Prok) It is what it is. The time to complain was years ago Marks is doing a damn good job righting the ship.

Marks is doing an ok job.... but he is handcuffing us to a group of role players... which was fine before they were drastically overpaid role players. we dont have 50 million in cap anymore. i like this core and crabbe fits but you simply cant give a bench shooting role player that kind of money and not have it hurt down the road.

your point on stauskus makes it even more clear. we could have harris AND stauskus for 1/4 of what crabbe makes

people will realize this the next 2 offseasons. check my cap thread

Getting Jahill Okafur, D'Angelo Russell, finding a starter in Dinwiddie and a good role player in Joe Harris is a damn good job considering he didn't have his pick for the next couple of years when he signed on.
You focus on one overpaid player forgetting the 2-3 players he got for peanuts.

You can't have it all now wait till they get their own pick back by then all the contracts will be moot.

You're a hater for not giving Marks credit for what he's done here.

How have i not praised marks?
-I called the russell trade an enormous robbery and elite traded
-i called the carroll trade a great trade
-i praised the allen pick calling it a steal and i guy i wanted us to trade up to get

I was against a move to trade for a bench shooter 2nd round 25 year old making 19 million in year. on a team already playing a ton of bench/role types 10-15 million a year with our young guys coming up on their extension year this offseason.

i mean, when we either are in the luxury tax with an 8-12 seed team or have to let young players leave maybe then people will view it differently. We arent in good cap shape anymore

[treiz]

He didn't shoot that much in Portland I'm fine with him coming off the bench when Dlo comes back. Stauskas is a good 3pt shooter to go along with AC and Harris. Everyone has a off game what matters most is he made it when they needed it.

Are you guys going to complain about his contract forever? (Prok) It is what it is. The time to complain was years ago Marks is doing a damn good job righting the ship.

Well yeah we should do, because this is going to hamper future moves and really hurt our flexibility, especially for a team in year 2 of its rebuild mainly focusing on development. Not saying that Marks isn't doing a good job, but he messed up with this particular trade.

[kamaze]

Never satisfied...

[Prokorov]

Never satisfied...

this is such a cheap shot....

People predicted (myself, treiz, nyce) this exact scenario:

-With more volume crabbes shooting percentages will drop
-with less catch and shoot crabbes percentages will drop
-in this offense he wont be more/much more productive then harris or shoot better
-with more volume his numbers will increase but not much and his efficiency will dip.

we got DESTROYED for those predictions and harris got dragged through the mud called a scrub and harris an elite shooter among the best in the game.

now, at least so far it seems like we were on to something and its "never satisfied"

Sorry if im not happy that our highest paid player is a role shooter making 19M who we can get the same thing from for 1.5M out of harris. Hell for the cost of Crabbe we could have Harris, Stauskus and 10+ million of cap room

you know who isnt going to be satisfied? alot of Nets fans when they realize we dont have much cap flexibility and the team you see now is basically what you get while being inthe luxury tax for the next 2-3 years

[Netaman]

Never satisfied...

Sorry if im not happy that our highest paid player is a role shooter making 19M who we can get the same thing from for 1.5M out of harris. Hell for the cost of Crabbe we could have Harris, Stauskus and Nicholson 10+ million of cap room

Fixed. Stauskas is due a little over $5M qualifying offer. Nicholson would be on the books for about $6M. That would leave around $7M for Harris, which is possible though probably low.

[kamaze]

Never satisfied...

this is such a cheap shot....

People predicted (myself, treiz, nyce) this exact scenario:

-With more volume crabbes shooting percentages will drop
-with less catch and shoot crabbes percentages will drop
-in this offense he wont be more/much more productive then harris or shoot better
-with more volume his numbers will increase but not much and his efficiency will dip.

we got DESTROYED for those predictions and harris got dragged through the mud called a scrub and harris an elite shooter among the best in the game.

now, at least so far it seems like we were on to something and its "never satisfied"

Sorry if im not happy that our highest paid player is a role shooter making 19M who we can get the same thing from for 1.5M out of harris. Hell for the cost of Crabbe we could have Harris, Stauskus and 10+ million of cap room

you know who isnt going to be satisfied? alot of Nets fans when they realize we dont have much cap flexibility and the team you see now is basically what you get while being inthe luxury tax for the next 2-3 years

Get over it bruh he's overpaid and there's nothing you can do about it. Either accept it or complain about something you have no control over.

Sean Marks has done a good job I have faith in him.

[treiz]

Never satisfied...

So we should never criticise Marks for anything he does right?

[MrDollarBills]

Let's give Crabbe a year under Kenny before we give up on him.

I'm worried to be honest because of his age and the fact that Joe Harris is giving us the same exact production on less money and will probably still make less money doing what he does elsewhere next season. The deal looks really iffy now, but lets give Crabbe some time. It seems like Year 2 is when results start kicking in for guys under Kenny.

[treiz]

Let's give Crabbe a year under Kenny before we give up on him.

I'm worried to be honest because of his age and the fact that Joe Harris is giving us the same exact production on less money and will probably still make less money doing what he does elsewhere next season. The deal looks really iffy now, but lets give Crabbe some time. It seems like Year 2 is when results start kicking in for guys under Kenny.

Nobody here is 'giving up' on him, I have no doubt he'll be a solid contributor on this team but the likelihood of him living up to his price tag is what's very difficult to justify, even if you give him 3 years under Kenny.

Not just that, but how that would hamper potential moves down the line. Especially considering we're still rebuilding, we need to be as flexible as possible.

[Netaman]

Let's give Crabbe a year under Kenny before we give up on him.

I'm worried to be honest because of his age and the fact that Joe Harris is giving us the same exact production on less money and will probably still make less money doing what he does elsewhere next season. The deal looks really iffy now, but lets give Crabbe some time. It seems like Year 2 is when results start kicking in for guys under Kenny.

Nobody here is 'giving up' on him, I have no doubt he'll be a solid contributor on this team but the likelihood of him living up to his price tag is what's very difficult to justify, even if you give him 3 years under Kenny.

Not just that, but how that would hamper potential moves down the line. Especially considering we're still rebuilding, we need to be as flexible as possible.

The flexibility argument is a bit of a red herring in this particular situation. Why? Because projecting forward (which Marks surely did at the time he did the deal) he's had conversations with teams and agents and knows there aren't too many alternative options to add talent.

1. Top UFA's will not sign here yet. We know that. JJ Reddick is the best UFA they've even had a chance at, he is 33 and he turned us down despite living here. We probably offered him even more money than Crabbe over multiple years, or at least a very similar deal, and signing him offered no benefit to getting Nicholson off the books. Browsing the FA list next year Avery Bradley, Derrick Favors and KCP are probably the best options that could fit here. They obviously chose Crabbe > KCP once already. Depending on the contracts Favors or Bradley could be a fit here, but it's an unknown if they'd have any interest since we have players at their respective positions.

2. Top RFA's get matched. Mid-level RFA's need to get overpaid, and even then they mostly get matched (like Crabbe/TJ). Originally my biggest concern as cap room got tighter was being able to offer a max RFA like Parker or Gordon this offseason. Parker might be gettable, but that would be a very risky move. Gordon would get matched in a heartbeat. So not much fruit on this tree either.

So what's left?

3. TAKING ON BAD CONTRACTS - I know we all look at this subject glowingly because of Carroll and DLo, but as we've seen there's a real downside to taking on bad contracts because more often than not if you're getting assets it's to take on the Mozgovs or Nicholsons who are 100% dead cap for multiple seasons. I am glad they need to be MORE SELECTIVE going forward because the only active contracts that would be difficult to take on are so bad I don't want any part of them at almost any price like Deng. Also, similar to how they offset Crabbe with Nicholson, if a team did get desperate and offer the deal of the century, Marks does have the flexibility to include someone to offset some of the salary coming back like he did with Lopez and Nicholson (even though he wasn't an expiring). Lin and Carroll are almost $30m worth of expiring contracts this offseason. Next offseason they project to have max cap room and more than $35m expiring with Mozgov/Crabbe. They have flexibility, just not as much as they used to. There are certain situations where they may not be able to accommodate a team looking to dump for pure cap room, and if we miss out on a top 15 pick attached to a bad contract I'll be the first to say Marks f'd up his calculation. But losing out on a late first like the ones we got for Nicholson or Carroll aren't as valuable now that they already own several picks in the next few drafts.

Also, they still have more cap room the next few years than all but a handful of teams so while there is definitely less flexibility, they still have a lot.

[treiz]

The flexibility argument is a bit of a red herring in this particular situation. Why? Because projecting forward (which Marks surely did at the time he did the deal) he's had conversations with teams and agents and knows there aren't too many alternative options to add talent.

1. Top UFA's (all stars) will not sign here yet. Period. JJ Reddick is the best UFA they've even had a chance at, he is 33 and he turned us down despite living here. We probably offered him even more money than Crabbe over multiple years, or at least a very similar deal, and that was with Nicholson still on the books. Browsing the FA list next year Avery Bradley, Derrick Favors and KCP are probably the best options that could fit here. They obviously chose Crabbe > KCP once already. Depending on the contracts Favors or Bradley could be a fit here, but it's an unknown if they'd have any interest and their deals may be worse than Crabbe's the moment they sign.

2. Top RFA's get matched. Mid-level RFA's need to get overpaid, and even then they mostly get matched (like Crabbe/TJ). Originally my biggest concern as cap room got tighter was being able to offer a max RFA like Parker or Gordon this offseason. Parker might be gettable, but that would be a very risky move. Gordon would get matched in a heartbeat. So not much fruit on this tree either.

So what's left?

3. TAKING ON BAD CONTRACTS - I know we all look at this subject glowingly because of Carroll and DLo, but as we've seen there's a real downside to taking on bad contracts because more often than not if you're getting assets it's to take on the Mozgovs or Nicholsons who are 100% dead cap for multiple seasons. I am glad they need to be MORE SELECTIVE going forward because the only active contracts that would be difficult to take on are so bad I don't want any part of them at almost any price like Deng. Also, similar to how they offset Crabbe with Nicholson, if a team did get desperate and offer the deal of the century, Marks does have the flexibility to include someone to offset some of the salary coming back like he did with Lopez and Nicholson (even though he wasn't an expiring). Lin and Carroll are almost $30m worth of expiring contracts this offseason. Next offseason they project to have max cap room and more than $35m expiring with Mozgov/Crabbe. They have flexibility, just not as much as they used to. There are certain situations where they may not be able to accommodate a team looking to dump for pure cap room, and if we miss out on a top 15 pick attached to a bad contract I'll be the first to say Marks f'd up his calculation. But losing out on a late first like the ones we got for Nicholson or Carroll aren't as valuable now that they already own several picks in the next few drafts.

Also, they still have more cap room the next few years than all but a handful of teams.

So you're basically saying you can predict the future? You saw the Russell trade happening? You saw the Carroll trade happening?

The point is opportunities like those can and does pop in the middle of the season and offseason out of nowhere, it happens, something happens within a team that causes them to make changes, the idea of flexibility is the ability to be ready to jump at these opportunities when that time comes.

We had no reason whatsoever to max out our cap the way we did with the Crabbe trade, we're only in year 2 of our rebuild and our core assets (Russell/RHJ/Levert/Allen) are far from finished products, so why not try and accumulate more assets in order to compliment them and try to build around a similar timeline to that with what we have. It's that simple.

UFAs, I agree nobody would sign here at this current moment so let's leave it at that. Similarly, I agree with the case of RFAs.

Taking on more bad contracts in exchange for assets is exactly what we should be doing. Seriously, just look at what Marks did getting Russell/draft pick for Allen. With Moz in the books however, I do agree that we would have to be selective in what we take, for example not trading for Parsons/Deng. The beauty of getting these assets is that in most cases (such as the Carroll case) is that it's only for 2 years, after this season he's an expiring, it all follows a similar timeline to the development of our current core guys. That's the whole idea, to maximise this current group of guys by building around them and making sure that they all peak at around the same time (on team friendly contracts) so that we can actually contend not just for one year, but for multiple seasons with different iterations if need be.

But it doesn't just have to be about taking on bad contracts, I'll give you an example, say the Pelicans decide to start again with Davis. That leaves Boogie ripe for the taking, a team like the Pelicans would want cap space, draft picks and prospects in order for them to think about dealing him. These types of things pop up, look at what's happening in Memphis with all of these talks of them blowing it up, OKC is not looking so good right now, there's uncertainty Cleveland with the whole Lebron situation up in the air, Clippers/Dallas/Jazz/Hornets also have uncertainties.

Like I've been saying this whole time, opportunities will pop up (especially in the next 3 years Crabbe is here), the whole idea of flexibility is having that leverage in order to take advantage of those opportunities. And I've not even mentioned the fact that we have to extend RHJ and Russell soon, so that too will hinder our cap going forward, they're going to get a pretty hefty chunk of our cap, so despite you mentioning Carroll and Lin going off the books, that's offset by RHJ and Russell and then some since they too need to be replaced or offered a new deal (in Carroll's case).

[Netaman]

So you're basically saying you can predict the future? You saw the Russell trade happening? You saw the Carroll trade happening?

The point is opportunities like those can and does pop in the middle of the season and offseason out of nowhere, it happens, something happens within a team that causes them to make changes, the idea of flexibility is the ability to be ready to jump at these opportunities when that time comes.

I agree with a lot of your post and the point of mine wasn't to say I can predict the future. It was to say we do have flexibility. They are not maxed out, they just need to be selective. They could do the Russell trade right now with no issues. That's basically what they just did with Okafor (dealing an expiring vet for young assets). If a similar trade pops up at the draft, they can do it using either Lin or Carroll as a big expiring the same way they did with Lopez. They would similarly be able to absorb a veteran like the Carroll trade, pretty much straight up depending on where the new cap ends up (they are projected to have between $12-15m in cap room).

They can't do all of those things like they did last year, but they wouldn't have enough roster spots to make that many moves anyway unless they deviate from their plan and trade a handful of guys from the young core they've been trying to assemble. Russell, RHJ, Levert, Allen, Dinwiddie, and Mozgov make 6 guys who are basically locked roster spots that won't (or can't) be traded. Lin and Carroll are going to be under contract for 1 more year. I actually think Crabbe will be relatively tradeable this offseason, especially if we'd take a smaller contract back. Stauskas will likely get an offer. That's 10 spots not counting Okafor, Zeller, Whitehead, or any other rookies - which they will probably have at least 2.

The roster right now is the roster we are going to see next year. Maybe they will add 1 veteran somewhere, but more likely next year's improvement is going to be staked to continued improvement from Levert, DLo, Dinwiddie, Allen, RHJ, Crabbe, Stuaskas, and whichever rookies they pick up. And better health. If Okafor tanks I could see them trying to upgrade with a better big guy. Maybe take on Faried as a 1 year rental/dump.

[Claud]

It's still too early to pass final judgement but it's looking like the Crabbe trade was Marks' first fumble.

He had been on a roll ever since taking over as GM and made 2 good deals in the summer with the Lakers for Russell/moz and Raps for DMC/picks. However, the Crabbe deal was definitely a surprising way to finish the summer IMO. I thought it was weird that we were going to commit a big chunk of our cap space for decent but not great player but trusted Marks since history speaks for itself.

I still think Crabbe is searching for it and hasn't found it yet in BK. He didn't have training camp(Injured) plus has been in and out this season. Not an excuse but can't help in his adjustment. I think ultimately we have to wait a full year or two under the coaching staff to really see if he was worth it because as of now he isn't and the contract is looking albatross. He is settling for too many horrible shots and need to play with higher IQ. If the shot isn't there move it and get a better one. If he doesn't improve he's a bench player at 20m for the next 3 years. Dinwiddie-Russell-Levert-RHJ are the starting core in BK in my opinion.

[treiz]

I agree with a lot of your post and the point of mine wasn't to say I can predict the future. It was to say we do have flexibility. They are not maxed out, they just need to be selective. They could do the Russell trade right now with no issues. That's basically what they just did with Okafor (dealing an expiring vet for young assets). If a similar trade pops up at the draft, they can do it using either Lin or Carroll as a big expiring the same way they did with Lopez. They would similarly be able to absorb a veteran like the Carroll trade, pretty much straight up depending on where the new cap ends up (they are projected to have between $12-15m in cap room).

They can't do all of those things like they did last year, but they wouldn't have enough roster spots to make that many moves anyway unless they deviate from their plan and trade a handful of guys from the young core they've been trying to assemble. Russell, RHJ, Levert, Allen, Dinwiddie, and Mozgov make 6 guys who are basically locked roster spots that won't (or can't) be traded. Lin and Carroll are going to be under contract for 1 more year. I actually think Crabbe will be relatively tradeable this offseason, especially if we'd take a smaller contract back. Stauskas will likely get an offer. That's 10 spots not counting Okafor, Zeller, Whitehead, or any other rookies - which they will probably have at least 2.

The roster right now is the roster we are going to see next year. Maybe they will add 1 veteran somewhere, but more likely next year's improvement is going to be staked to continued improvement from Levert, DLo, Dinwiddie, Allen, RHJ, Crabbe, Stuaskas, and whichever rookies they pick up. And better health. If Okafor tanks I could see them trying to upgrade with a better big guy. Maybe take on Faried as a 1 year rental/dump.

We are maxed out, we are literally at max cap, the cap space was set at $94m this year, and we have $94m in salary, that's the definition of being maxed out. In theory yes we can do the Russell trade today no issues, but that's assuming that the other team wants Lin and his injury history at $12m or Carroll at $15m, yes it's expiring (next year) but they still have to pay the salary, and if they're close to the luxury tax or are there, they're not going to go through with that trade, but if we can give them pure cap that's a different story. A type of deal that we can't pull of anymore is a Carroll trade, since we need to make salaries match in order to make that happen, that's the idea of flexibility. It allows us to be out at multiple fronts. So trading for Crabbe, made us lose flexibility since we can't just trade straight cap anymore, not just that but we're tied up with Crabbe for 3 years at $19m per year, and with the inevitable extensions to our core guys coming up, that makes it particularly difficult for us. Him getting paid $19m per is not the main problem, it's him playing like a role player whilst getting paid $19m per, that's where the problem lies.

I'm not saying they'll have another offseason like the one that just passed, we've managed to recoup so much this offseason from the Billy King era that we're effectively out of that hole. You essentially helped my point too with the roster, assuming nobody leaves, that means we'll have $10m in cap space next year, if Carroll/Lin are moved that saves another $28m in cap space, sounds great, but then we have Russell and RHJ to worry about, yes they can be offered a QO, but the smart move would be to try and sign a team-friendly extension before they hit RFAs where their values will get inflated. So that effectively removed all of the potential "savings" that we gathered from trading Carroll/Lin or letting their contracts run out.

This team is not finished yet, there's still so much potential and so much room for improvement all over the roster and it would be naive of Marks to think that he should close any option that would bring in more prospects. Besides, it doesn't have to be for players, we can accumulate draft picks similar to what the Celtics did and should we need to make a push for the playoffs or contend, then at least we'd have the assets to make a big deal if necessary. This is why as we're not trying to contend this year or next year, we need to accumulate any sort of asset, whether it be prospects/draft picks/cap space, so that when we are in contention, we have assets that can help push us over the top. As for Crabbe being tradeable, that's doubtful IMO especially if we take a smaller contract back, if a team gives us a smaller contract for Crabbe, that would be a GOAT move.

[kamaze]

Never satisfied...

So we should never criticise Marks for anything he does right?

If you want to criticize him for this move what about Dinwiddie and Joe Harris? Those 2 cancel out the Crabbe contract imo that's what I mean by never satisfied.

[kamaze]

It's still too early to pass final judgement but it's looking like the Crabbe trade was Marks' first fumble.

He had been on a roll ever since taking over as GM and made 2 good deals in the summer with the Lakers for Russell/moz and Raps for DMC/picks. However, the Crabbe deal was definitely a surprising way to finish the summer IMO. I thought it was weird that we were going to commit a big chunk of our cap space for decent but not great player but trusted Marks since history speaks for itself.

I still think Crabbe is searching for it and hasn't found it yet in BK. He didn't have training camp(Injured) plus has been in and out this season. Not an excuse but can't help in his adjustment. I think ultimately we have to wait a full year or two under the coaching staff to really see if he was worth it because as of now he isn't and the contract is looking albatross. He is settling for too many horrible shots and need to play with higher IQ. If the shot isn't there move it and get a better one. If he doesn't improve he's a bench player at 20m for the next 3 years. Dinwiddie-Russell-Levert-RHJ are the starting core in BK in my opinion.

Kenny went and told Marks he needed more shooting he added one of the top shooters it makes sense. He did so again in the Stauskas trade. For a first time GM he should be getting praised not criticized.

[treiz]

If you want to criticize him for this move what about Dinwiddie and Joe Harris? Those 2 cancel out the Crabbe contract imo that's what I mean by never satisfied.

What about those moves? Marks deservedly got praised for those moves, similarly for the Russell and Carroll trades, some of us here even advocated that there was no reason for Crabbe because of Harris because of how expensive one is compared to the other.

Nobody here think that Marks is doing a terrible job overall, but in this case he made a mistake, if you ask those people who criticised him for this move, you would see that we are CLEARLY satisfied with Marks overall for the job he's done. Like we've been saying it's just this specific move, and just because he's done great things so far doesn't make him immune to criticism.

[kamaze]

If you want to criticize him for this move what about Dinwiddie and Joe Harris? Those 2 cancel out the Crabbe contract imo that's what I mean by never satisfied.

What about those moves? Marks deservedly got praised for those moves, similarly for the Russell and Carroll trades, some of us here even advocated that there was no reason for Crabbe because of Harris because of how expensive one is compared to the other.

Nobody here think that Marks is doing a terrible job overall, but in this case he made a mistake, if you ask those people who criticised him for this move, you would see that we are CLEARLY satisfied with Marks overall for the job he's done. Like we've been saying it's just this specific move, and just because he's done great things so far doesn't make him immune to criticism.

Kenny asked Marks for more shooting and Marks did that.