2017 Nets Offseason Thread II

[Ror1997]

The whole point of getting a RFA is to overpay them. If the nets sign Porter or KCP to near max deals, and the biggest complaint you have about them is that they're overpaid, then that's good.

And honestly, what do we as fans care? Its not the owner throwing his money around and forcing Marks to sign these guys. Marks is doing it himself.

You think Marks doesn't know that these contracts would be a burden? He's the one who would be tasked with moving these contracts.

I just don't know why people are ok with trusting Marks eye for talent in the draft, but not his eye for talent when money is involved.

The market for RFA is not normal and the contracts will reflect that. Marks should be praised for being willing to do what it takes to get a player he believes is worth getting. Not be criticized.

If we had a GM who didn't want to get young, talented players because they cost too much, (especially when you're in the draft pick situation we're in, with pockets as deep as ours are) we would all be losing our **** minds.

[MrDollarBills]

I get that everyone has hesitations about each and every potential free agent we can bring in, but you gotta remember you need to balance

A) what they've shown you so far in their NBA career, with

B) their upside potential, with

C) their fit in Kenny's system (and to add, the culture of Brooklyn basketball)

Yeah Porter disappeared with Bogie and in the playoffs at times, but in a featured starting role with a top-5 3 point shooting team, might he put up way more attempts/makes per game? Isn't he still 3-5 years away from his prime too?

JJ would create more of a log jam and he'd be the oldest guy on the team at 33, and how do we start him, but aren't we trying to go positionless basketball with guys who can space? Wouldn't he and Lin provide tremendous chemistry and leadership together?

KCP might look like massive overpay, but he's a great defender at the 2-3 that we need and might not have been used the best of ways in SVG's system. Didn't the Pistons fans say that he was the only one on the court that always cared, even in big losses? Isn't that the kind of attitude you want here in Brooklyn? (hello, Deron "dog" WIlliams) Who's to say he would play up to his big contract too?

To each his own, but I think you gotta take into consideration the whole picture and not just these guys for what they've been so far.

True. Great post.

[Ror1997]

i dont mind missing out on porter. he would instantly become a top 5 worst contact. he obiously provides a ton of great things and is young and while im now good with him after adding DLo im not upset if we dont make an offer or dont get him

i dont want KCP. even at bazemore money thats a bad deal. he is young and a good fit but he needs to be here for 15M per for me not to dislike the contract.

If you want a RFA on a reasonable deal then you don't understand RFA. Why on earth would an opposing GM let his young player walk away in F/A after he just signed a reasonably priced contract that keeps him under contract through their prime. The whole RFA system itself is designed to make teams put their money where their mouth is so that they have to overpay for the talent they want. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Rockice_24]

i dont mind missing out on porter. he would instantly become a top 5 worst contact. he obiously provides a ton of great things and is young and while im now good with him after adding DLo im not upset if we dont make an offer or dont get him

i dont want KCP. even at bazemore money thats a bad deal. he is young and a good fit but he needs to be here for 15M per for me not to dislike the contract.

Until next season when someone else is signed. The guy is a 23 year old 2 way player who brings a 3pt shooting element we desperately need on the wing. We have some big contracts coming off the books in 3 years (Moz, D-Will, Nicholson) and even at this level if he doesn't improve at all in year 3 he'll be a valuable expiring. In 2017 and 2018 he helps the team the first two years of his deal and in 2019 he's got 2 years left an is no longer a bad deal. By 2020 he's a good player on a large expiring. He'll probably have much value at that point and could land us a 1st like Bogs.

I want to win next year and Porter helps that. We should sign him 4 year /25 per does nothing to our cap since we can clear another 21M by letting Booker walk and Lin opt out. We then have 26/27M in cap space again and a nice young trio of wings. There is little downside to signing Otto. We should go for it.

i dont think porter helps us win. he is a role player. bringing him in would be committing even more to development and a long rebuild. he is another kid you try and improve. not a win now piece. 3 point shooting is a need i agree but im paying 25 million for a guy to sit in the corner and shoot threes. i also think his percentages go way down as a focal point instead of a 4th option.

First off he is a positive asset on the floor so upgrading to him helps us win, not sure how you can argue improving a starting position with a better defender and scorer doesn't help us win. D-lo and Levert are the backcourt of the future and he fits in so perfectly with their development. D-lo and Levert can get him open looks and at 44% he'll be just fine here. Over the next year or so we have a very slim chance to add anything better so in 2 years when we do have that chance again Porter is no longer a problematic contract and easily moved if we like. I think you are wildly selling his ability short by calling him nothing more than a spot up shooter. He was that in Was because of how ball dominant Wall/Beal were. Get him in the motion offense we run and I think he can prove to more than that.

Still if that is all he is is an elite 44% 3 pt shooter on offense that's fine. He is a solid rebounder at the 3 and a solid defender as well so he's way more than Allen Crabbe. He's not going to be a focal point of the offense. He'll fit right in well in our system flawlessly and play hard on both ends.

[Paradise]

Keep in mind, RFA isn't as simple as UFA. He can add different poison pill provisions that makes any offer for KCP (who seems more likely) to be more favorable on our cap than for Detroit's. Yes, I'd still sign KCP because adding Russell changes the dynamic. Regardless of his shooting percentages. He's a legit 2 way wing with upside to shoot 40% from three in this offense. Keep in mind, the Pistons play at the 22nd slowest pace in the league. We play at the 3rd highest pace behind Houston, GSW. Ask yourself what would KCP and Porter look like in a Houston or GS system of cutting, passing, switching on D and shooting at higher paces? That's what we're betting on with these offer sheets.

[Ror1997]

KCP is like KJ with a way more polished offensive game. And KJ was doing well and getting 10-12 points a night in our offense

Russell/Lin/Dinwiddie
KCP(?)/Kilpatrick/Goodwin
LeVert/Harris/Wiley
RHJ/Booker/Alexander
Mosgov/Speights(?)/Allen

That's not bad. Plenty of room for the young guys to ball out and maybe make a push for 8th seed.

I think Russell starting and Lin as the 6th man microwave off the bench it can be alot like the 2015 -16 Hornets team

[Prokorov]

i dont mind missing out on porter. he would instantly become a top 5 worst contact. he obiously provides a ton of great things and is young and while im now good with him after adding DLo im not upset if we dont make an offer or dont get him

i dont want KCP. even at bazemore money thats a bad deal. he is young and a good fit but he needs to be here for 15M per for me not to dislike the contract.

If you want a RFA on a reasonable deal then you don't understand RFA. Why on earth would an opposing GM let his young player walk away in F/A after he just signed a reasonably priced contract that keeps him under contract through their prime. The whole RFA system itself is designed to make teams put their money where their mouth is so that they have to overpay for the talent they want. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I dont expect an RFA on a cheap deal. im saying that KCP for anything more then 15M starts to make me cringe and over 20M induces vomitting.

[Prokorov]

I get that everyone has hesitations about each and every potential free agent we can bring in, but you gotta remember you need to balance

A) what they've shown you so far in their NBA career, with

B) their upside potential, with

C) their fit in Kenny's system (and to add, the culture of Brooklyn basketball)

Yeah Porter disappeared with Bogie and in the playoffs at times, but in a featured starting role with a top-5 3 point shooting team, might he put up way more attempts/makes per game? Isn't he still 3-5 years away from his prime too?

Factoring all that in he would still be enormously overpaid and i think if you give him a featured role and more attempts his stats will go from looking very attractive to just looking solid.

JJ would create more of a log jam and he'd be the oldest guy on the team at 33, and how do we start him, but aren't we trying to go positionless basketball with guys who can space? Wouldn't he and Lin provide tremendous chemistry and leadership together?

how would porter not create a logjam but reddick would? and reddick creates tons of spacing. few guys create the space he does. porter doesnt give you that. if you play porter at PF he gives you good spacing but nowhere near the elite spcing reddick would give you.

porter doesnt fare well switched on to gaurds.

KCP might look like massive overpay, but he's a great defender at the 2-3 that we need and might not have been used the best of ways in SVG's system. Didn't the Pistons fans say that he was the only one on the court that always cared, even in big losses? Isn't that the kind of attitude you want here in Brooklyn? (hello, Deron "dog" WIlliams) Who's to say he would play up to his big contract too?

To each his own, but I think you gotta take into consideration the whole picture and not just these guys for what they've been so far.

i AM taking the whole thing into consideration. these guys are young great fits. but you can give role players superstar money. i mean even at 18-19 million i wouldnt like the deal.

i wouldnt be so upset because of our age/timeline/fit but thats still massive overpays.

[Prokorov]

KCP is like KJ with a way more polished offensive game. And KJ was doing well and getting 10-12 points a night in our offense

Russell/Lin/Dinwiddie
KCP(?)/Kilpatrick/Goodwin
LeVert/Harris/Wiley
RHJ/Booker/Alexander
Mosgov/Speights(?)/Allen

That's not bad. Plenty of room for the young guys to ball out and maybe make a push for 8th seed.

I think Russell starting and Lin as the 6th man microwave off the bench it can be alot like the 2015 -16 Hornets team

im not paying 25 million for KJ with a jumpshot.

[Paradise]

i dont mind missing out on porter. he would instantly become a top 5 worst contact. he obiously provides a ton of great things and is young and while im now good with him after adding DLo im not upset if we dont make an offer or dont get him

i dont want KCP. even at bazemore money thats a bad deal. he is young and a good fit but he needs to be here for 15M per for me not to dislike the contract.

If you want a RFA on a reasonable deal then you don't understand RFA. Why on earth would an opposing GM let his young player walk away in F/A after he just signed a reasonably priced contract that keeps him under contract through their prime. The whole RFA system itself is designed to make teams put their money where their mouth is so that they have to overpay for the talent they want. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I dont expect an RFA on a cheap deal. im saying that KCP for anything more then 15M starts to make me cringe and over 20M induces vomitting.

Again, it's not the base number. Its the structure of the contract. That's up for Natalie Jay and the rest of the financial staff to determine how to structure a proper contract that hurts them more than us.




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[Prokorov]

Keep in mind, RFA isn't as simple as UFA. He can add different poison pill provisions that makes any offer for KCP (who seems more likely) to be more favorable on our cap than for Detroit's. Yes, I'd still sign KCP because adding Russell changes the dynamic. Regardless of his shooting percentages. He's a legit 2 way wing with upside to shoot 40% from three in this offense. Keep in mind, the Pistons play at the 22nd slowest pace in the league. We play at the 3rd highest pace behind Houston, GSW. Ask yourself what would KCP and Porter look like in a Houston or GS system of cutting, passing, switching on D and shooting at higher paces? That's what we're betting on with these offer sheets.

i think both KCP and Porters stats go up in volume but down in efficiency here. i dont see a jump in volume with sustained efficiency which would be needed to jsutify those contracts

if we get them i wont be upset since they are good young players and good guys who work hard. but either would be a top 5 worst contract isntantly.

[Paradise]

Keep in mind, RFA isn't as simple as UFA. He can add different poison pill provisions that makes any offer for KCP (who seems more likely) to be more favorable on our cap than for Detroit's. Yes, I'd still sign KCP because adding Russell changes the dynamic. Regardless of his shooting percentages. He's a legit 2 way wing with upside to shoot 40% from three in this offense. Keep in mind, the Pistons play at the 22nd slowest pace in the league. We play at the 3rd highest pace behind Houston, GSW. Ask yourself what would KCP and Porter look like in a Houston or GS system of cutting, passing, switching on D and shooting at higher paces? That's what we're betting on with these offer sheets.

i think both KCP and Porters stats go up in volume but down in efficiency here. i dont see a jump in volume with sustained efficiency which would be needed to jsutify those contracts

if we get them i wont be upset since they are good young players and good guys who work hard. but either would be a top 5 worst contract isntantly.

How? I think the efficiency increases. Why would their volume of attempts increase when the two main options are Jeremy and D'Angelo? Then, LeVert. You're looking at Porter being a two way defender and knock down shooter like a DeMarre Carroll/Trevor Ariza. KCP's role would likely be the equivalent of a Rodney Hood or Danny Green.

None of these guys are signing up to be the face of this team. Porter might be the only one capable of such an accomplishment.


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[Prokorov]

How? I think the efficiency increases. Why would their volume of attempts increase when the two main options are Jeremy and D'Angelo? Then, LeVert. You're looking at Porter being a two way defender and knock down shooter like a DeMarre Carroll/Trevor Ariza. KCP's role would likely be the equivalent of a Rodney Hood or Danny Green.

Yeah im not paying 25 million for trevor ariza or rodney hood...

Porters efficiency is a lock to go down":

1) even on the same team its tough to duplicate that kind of efficiency
2) he will get more shots here. i dont care if lin/dlo are our top options porter was the 4th/5th option on the wiz
3) he is playing with worse teammates and not one of the leagues premier offense creator

i dont see porter as anything mroe then an average solid defender either.

i think as you put we would be getting trevor ariza type

[Rockice_24]

i dont mind missing out on porter. he would instantly become a top 5 worst contact. he obiously provides a ton of great things and is young and while im now good with him after adding DLo im not upset if we dont make an offer or dont get him

i dont want KCP. even at bazemore money thats a bad deal. he is young and a good fit but he needs to be here for 15M per for me not to dislike the contract.

If you want a RFA on a reasonable deal then you don't understand RFA. Why on earth would an opposing GM let his young player walk away in F/A after he just signed a reasonably priced contract that keeps him under contract through their prime. The whole RFA system itself is designed to make teams put their money where their mouth is so that they have to overpay for the talent they want. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I dont expect an RFA on a cheap deal. im saying that KCP for anything more then 15M starts to make me cringe and over 20M induces vomitting.

Your idea of contracts is outdated. Good young players make 20+ mil now and superstars make 30M. If your idea of team building is to have three max contract guys and just put Min and MLE guys around those three that's one thing but that strategy is not in our future for the next 3-4 years at least. Signing Porter is exactly the type of move we need.

Just think about 2018/19 for a sec. If Lin has an option and figures out he's not the future then he may opt out. We will have max cap space next year (32M) with Lin on the books or we could have about 44M if he opts out and that is with Porter at 25M. That doesn't include any rise in the cap either. What the hell are we going to spend 70M on next year. Are George and Cousins coming here?

Unless we really want to be in that position in 2018 where we have D-Lo/Levert/RHJ and nothing else then those guys aren't coming anyway. Now we're in 2019 with a ton of cap, no picks and the worst roster in the league still starting from scratch hoping to finally have our pick so we can draft a star. I'm sorry but I'm not waiting until 2019 draft to start trying to win again.

The fact that we can sign Porter who fits in every aspect to our team and still have max cap space next year makes it a no brainer to try.

[steady]

IMO 80 percent chance Hayward goes to Boston which makes me wonder about possible cast offs from Celtics. I like Amir Johnson PF as veteran for lockerroom
I also like Anthony Tolliver (Kings SF)

Re RFAs - I think it less likely Marks takes that route this year for 3 reasons

1- Nets are not as desperate. Nets have DARussell and some other good pieces, they have a starting foundation. What Crabbe / Tyler J would have brought us, we already have in LeVert and DAR in other words

2. Because Nets are improved, there is a real chance FAs will voluntarily choose Nets - that means we are not as dependent on RFA pool

3. Lesson learned - we saw last year that teams were v reluctant to release a good player they had taken the time to nurture and grow to another team, they'd rather keep them even if luxury tax consequences . So chances Nets get a target in RFA are v low. Plus Marks probably does not want to get reputation for being the FO which always jacks up RFA salaries

Finally - whether this year or next - it seems like their cap space has the potential to net the team some good players in trade just like how we got DAR. That possibility is probably not high - but I would guess no smaller than our chances of outbidding other teams for ex for Porter.

My guess is that Marks plays it very patient this FA period. Cap space by itself has such a substantial value in this market (given how teams overbid last year and the cap hike this year was far below projected)

[Ror1997]

KCP is like KJ with a way more polished offensive game. And KJ was doing well and getting 10-12 points a night in our offense

Russell/Lin/Dinwiddie
KCP(?)/Kilpatrick/Goodwin
LeVert/Harris/Wiley
RHJ/Booker/Alexander
Mosgov/Speights(?)/Allen

That's not bad. Plenty of room for the young guys to ball out and maybe make a push for 8th seed.

I think Russell starting and Lin as the 6th man microwave off the bench it can be alot like the 2015 -16 Hornets team

im not paying 25 million for KJ with a jumpshot.

But 3.5 for regular KJ is too expensive? Lol.

I just don't understand why you and so many other people are so obsessed with salary. It doesn't impact on court performance. The only people who have to deal with the consequences are Marks and Prok, and both are willing to do so.

How can people say they trust Marks and then all of a sudden not agree with him because of something that doesn't even effect them? You improve the team with a catch, but you don't even have to deal with the catch!

I'm just trying to say these aren't your problems to worry about, so why do they factor into your judgment?

At least if you give KCP 25 mil a year you're getting years 24-28. In an era where players are gonna make 40 mil for their 29-34 years, paying 25M for a players prime years isn't a bad deal.

[Prokorov]

Your idea of contracts is outdated. Good young players make 20+ mil now and superstars make 30M. If your idea of team building is to have three max contract guys and just put Min and MLE guys around those three that's one thing but that strategy is not in our future for the next 3-4 years at least. Signing Porter is exactly the type of move we need.

That simply isnt true.

Bazemore, crabbe... these are guys making 18-20 million who teams already regret their contracts just 1 year later. Yes some young guys amke 20 million, but if they are role guys their team already regrets it. i dont want to be the team paying max money to role players

Just think about 2018/19 for a sec. If Lin has an option and figures out he's not the future then he may opt out. We will have max cap space next year (32M) with Lin on the books or we could have about 44M if he opts out and that is with Porter at 25M. That doesn't include any rise in the cap either. What the hell are we going to spend 70M on next year. Are George and Cousins coming here?

its not just next year and you need to project extensions for Russell, Levert, an RHJ. you max porter or KCP and extend those guys in a couple years and next thin you know you are locked into a team gighting for an 8 seed.

Unless we really want to be in that position in 2018 where we have D-Lo/Levert/RHJ and nothing else then those guys aren't coming anyway. Now we're in 2019 with a ton of cap, no picks and the worst roster in the league still starting from scratch hoping to finally have our pick so we can draft a star. I'm sorry but I'm not waiting until 2019 draft to start trying to win again.

The fact that we can sign Porter who fits in every aspect to our team and still have max cap space next year makes it a no brainer to try.

porter really doesnt change that. he is a role guy who may not be better then any of those 3 in a few years

[Mkdaman1818]

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[Ror1997]

Your idea of contracts is outdated. Good young players make 20+ mil now and superstars make 30M. If your idea of team building is to have three max contract guys and just put Min and MLE guys around those three that's one thing but that strategy is not in our future for the next 3-4 years at least. Signing Porter is exactly the type of move we need.

That simply isnt true.

Bazemore, crabbe... these are guys making 18-20 million who teams already regret their contracts just 1 year later. Yes some young guys amke 20 million, but if they are role guys their team already regrets it. i dont want to be the team paying max money to role players

Who says the Hawks regret that Bazemore contract? Bazemore makes 15M and had a PER under 12. Howard makes 23M and had a 20+ PER. Who did the Hawks deem a bad contract? 27 y/o bazemore or 31 y/o D12?

You're judging these contracts as if were giving them to 30 year olds and not 24 year olds. Rock is right. Your idea of contracts are outdated.

[Prokorov]

KCP is like KJ with a way more polished offensive game. And KJ was doing well and getting 10-12 points a night in our offense

Russell/Lin/Dinwiddie
KCP(?)/Kilpatrick/Goodwin
LeVert/Harris/Wiley
RHJ/Booker/Alexander
Mosgov/Speights(?)/Allen

That's not bad. Plenty of room for the young guys to ball out and maybe make a push for 8th seed.

I think Russell starting and Lin as the 6th man microwave off the bench it can be alot like the 2015 -16 Hornets team

im not paying 25 million for KJ with a jumpshot.

But 3.5 for regular KJ is too expensive? Lol.

I just don't understand why you and so many other people are so obsessed with salary. It doesn't impact on court performance. The only people who have to deal with the consequences are Marks and Prok, and both are willing to do so.

How can people say they trust Marks and then all of a sudden not agree with him because of something that doesn't even effect them? You improve the team with a catch, but you don't even have to deal with the catch!

I'm just trying to say these aren't your problems to worry about, so why do they factor into your judgment?

At least if you give KCP 25 mil a year you're getting years 24-28. In an era where players are gonna make 40 mil for their 29-34 years, paying 25M for a players prime years isn't a bad deal.

because your going to have cap issues down the road when you are paying role players max money.

and if you follow this thread and the marks thread you know that i DONT trust marks in free agency based on his offers to crabbe/bazemore last offseason.

these ARE my problems as a nets fan since i dont want to look at a team right at the salary cap with porter/levert(extended)/russell(extended)/RHJ(extended)/mozgov/nicholson fighting for an 8 seed.

id MUCH rather pay 40 million for years 29-34 fo a good player then 25 million for years 24-28 of some role guy.

give me the better guy on a big salary or a worse guy on a cheaper salary.

overpaying role guys is a path to the crapper.