Lopez for Reggie Jackson falls apart; Nets acquire Thad Young for KG (UPDATE: Page 58)

[Prokorov]

If Nets FO think that Lance isnt worth it, I support their decision. I have no problem with Nets FO not liking the supposed offers we have heard. Because they are all basically crap. I would be interested in what Denver has to offer.

thats fine, but holding on to a player having his worst season of his career, on a bad contract, who doesnt fit the coach is worse then making a trade were you dont get great value.

why should anyone be concerned about a player fitting a coach in the NBA? I say F the coach! It's his job to fit his personnel not the players job to fit around this guy. This isn't a college program or Phil Jackson coming in here with a proven track record and a fixed offense.

I see what you are saying, but we are on our 4th coach in 4 years... so to me, im not really ready to say kick hollins to the curb so we can take try number 5 at turning lopez into some top 20 player. I think we have bent over backwards for this group around brook to see if it can click and it just hasnt.

My response was that these "crap" offers might be 50 cents on the dollar, but they are still better then the alternative (not trading him) from both a short and long term cap view and from a on court production view.

Short of taking on more long term money, there isnt really a trade out there worse then hanging on to an injury prone player on a large contract having his worst season in 7 years. even for just cap savings its worth moving him.

[Prokorov]

See now selling it as a cap dump I get. Throw a pick in and I would have no problem. However to be clear my shock and dismay was how easy people are willing to have a grass is greener mentality about a former 2nd round pick role player compared to a lottery pick center who has averaged 20 in this league. it does not matter whether you like Lopez or think he will stay healthy or max out his potential. I just find no reason to be more excited about Lance the player and his future vs Lopez the player and his future.

To me it isnt one or the other... its both. The risk to me is low because worst case its dumping salary. I don't view some huge upside, but it is hard not to think lance the player and is future isnt brighter then lopez the player and his future given:

We have a much better record without lopez in the lineup.
We Cant beat good teams with or without lopez
We would be trading from depth to bring in at a position of no depth

This isnt the case of trading say our crappy wing for someone elses crappy wing and thing they turn water into wine by changing area codes. this is getting a player having a bad season who is stepping in for euro-rookies having god awful seasons.

The Brooklyn thing isnt super important, but i think you are underselling it a bit. i think for a couple weeks at least you are getting max energy and a shot in the arm from the guy. if thats worth even 1 or 2 wins that could be the difference between making or missing the playoffs.

Long term for me is irrelevant, as Lopez was gone when his contract was up and lance will be too. so thats a wash.

I just want the evaluations to be somewhat objective. And I get that's hard to do when you are frustrated first hand with one guy and maybe saw a game here or there from the other guy and thought I see something I like. But if you step back and look at both players at 24 years old and 26 years old there's just no reasonable way to actually covet Lance Stephenson upside over Lopez. That's really all I've been trying to say.

You are viewing upside. im viewing right now. and right now i dont see how lance can be any worse then bogs or karasev. i dont think either has any elite upside to be honest. i think a change of scenery maybe both guys can have a good 4-6 week run, but overall neither is becoming an all-star type.

As far as being objective, I posted all the numbers, raw, shooting, advanced, situational and across the board lopez is having his worst season and has gone to a permiter big with a pretty extreme shift in tendencies.

[Prokorov]

I hate it when anyone trys to sell Perkins as anything other than the scrub he is no matter how lunch pail he is.

Oh I'm definitely overselling him but realistically, he's 7'. An elite post defender, and 6 free fouls per game. I think that's a fair evaluation of his game. On top of all that the best games of his career were next to KG so I think he could have proved a bit useful. Not to mention his contract situation.

he is garbage. He isn't worth mentioning here. He is merely a contract thrown in to make numbers work and there is nothing anyone would look at with this guy to say...excited we got this guy.

Exactly, perkins only on court value would be if we flipped his expire for a player who actually can contribute... which i think would be a really smart move.

if we did get perkins, trading him for somone with 1 more year left like thad young is a no brainer. we get talent this year to try and stay in the playoffs and we gain an expiring next year which we may find useful.

[Prokorov]

[quote="spearsy23]
He'd be our third option so a huge outburst in one half would be fine with us. An efficient 13 points would have us ecstatic.[/quote]

an efficeint 13 points would make us happy too.... but usually its him red hot in the first hitting 6 of 6 jump shots, and then the jump shots stop falling and h goes to hell ending up with like 22 points on 21 FGA and 0 FTs

[therealbig3]

Wow, I just checked out the other site for the first time, and the thread on Prokhorov selling the team is pretty hilarious. The guy who runs the site is pretty full of ****, and pretty much resembles the attitude that I hate.

Reality: there is not a single team I wouldn't trade places with right now in terms of where the franchise stands and how they look moving forward. Even the Sixers or Knicks...I'd EASILY trade places with them. At least they're going to get a lottery pick for their trouble. And at least the Knicks have a star in place that can attract other star players. And at least they're going to have cap space soon. And the Sixers have a bunch of young talent that can either progress into something great or can fetch them high end talent (along with their cap space). We have neither of those things.

Someone there said it best: cap space without any foundation and no future is WORTHLESS. The real stars of the league that are worth pursuing are not trying to make as much money as possible, or be in the spotlight, or be in a flashy city, or get as many endorsements as possible...they're trying to team up with other stars and win championships. And pretty much every team in the league is going to have cap space when we do. Why in the hell would anyone choose us? The guys that are looking for a payday from a team foolish enough to give them one are going to be like who got max deals in 2010: Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudemire, Rudy Gay, and Carlos Boozer. That caliber of player. So we're going to tie up our cap space by massively overpaying for B-grade talent. Which means we'll be doing the same song and dance all over again. You need assets and young talent if you want to build a contender, that's just the way it works. You can't give me any successful NBA team that was able to build a contender purely through free agency, and without utilizing any draft picks or assets. Miami had young, talented players in Butler and Odom to help bring in Shaq, to pair up with another star player that they drafted (Wade). And that same star player that they kept from the draft was the only reason why they were able to bring in two other stars (LeBron and Bosh) to pair up with him and win more championships. Without that foundation, they wouldn't have won anything.

Also, I can't believe that anyone was actually trying to argue that Joe Dumars was a worse GM than Billy King. LOL. Joe Dumars put together a championship squad at one point, a team that was also able to have sustained success and make the conference finals or beyond in like 6 straight seasons. I'd take a championship season and 50 years of suck over whatever the hell we've gotten with Billy King. At least I'd have that championship to point to and reminisce on.

[CalamityX12]

Ownership wants Lance, King is against it. Interesting.

You know its the right move if king is against it!!!

[Joest2003]

All I know is whatever team unshackles Lamb from OKC is going to be well rewarded. Was really hoping it would be my Hornets but its looking more like the Nets.

[Shook Jones]

All I know is whatever team unshackles Lamb from OKC is going to be well rewarded. Was really hoping it would be my Hornets but its looking more like the Nets.

I see nothing in Lamb but an AVG player that looks lost 1/2 the time on the court. He has no motor.

[Shook Jones]

Lopez is a true Net for life. He upped his game to increase his trade value. Even he was insulted by the Perkins/Lamb deal.

Jackson is being pushed out of OKC rotation by Waiters. I see no reason King doesnt hold fast for him to be included, ESPECIALLY if we are still going to move Jack for Lance. Leaving this team in the hands of that dog Dwill is a recipe for disaster no matter how healthy he is, he isnt a killer. Jack is 1/2 the player Dwill is but has that go get it mentality.

[Lamak]

Perkins/Lamb deal is terrible, happy that didn't go through. Still interested in seeing Lance on the Nets. Like someone said, there really is no chemistry to disrupt. I'd still be looking to move Johnson+Teletovic

[MrDollarBills]

Lopez is a true Net for life. He upped his game to increase his trade value. Even he was insulted by the Perkins/Lamb deal.

Jackson is being pushed out of OKC rotation by Waiters. I see no reason King doesnt hold fast for him to be included, ESPECIALLY if we are still going to move Jack for Lance. Leaving this team in the hands of that dog Dwill is a recipe for disaster no matter how healthy he is, he isnt a killer. Jack is 1/2 the player Dwill is but has that go get it mentality.

If King's strategy is to hold out for Jackson then I'm fine with that. I'll take Jackson any day of the week over Deron the Dog

[enetric]

See now selling it as a cap dump I get. Throw a pick in and I would have no problem. However to be clear my shock and dismay was how easy people are willing to have a grass is greener mentality about a former 2nd round pick role player compared to a lottery pick center who has averaged 20 in this league. it does not matter whether you like Lopez or think he will stay healthy or max out his potential. I just find no reason to be more excited about Lance the player and his future vs Lopez the player and his future.

To me it isnt one or the other... its both. The risk to me is low because worst case its dumping salary. I don't view some huge upside, but it is hard not to think lance the player and is future isnt brighter then lopez the player and his future given:

We have a much better record without lopez in the lineup.
We Cant beat good teams with or without lopez
We would be trading from depth to bring in at a position of no depth

This isnt the case of trading say our crappy wing for someone elses crappy wing and thing they turn water into wine by changing area codes. this is getting a player having a bad season who is stepping in for euro-rookies having god awful seasons.

The Brooklyn thing isnt super important, but i think you are underselling it a bit. i think for a couple weeks at least you are getting max energy and a shot in the arm from the guy. if thats worth even 1 or 2 wins that could be the difference between making or missing the playoffs.

Long term for me is irrelevant, as Lopez was gone when his contract was up and lance will be too. so thats a wash.

I just want the evaluations to be somewhat objective. And I get that's hard to do when you are frustrated first hand with one guy and maybe saw a game here or there from the other guy and thought I see something I like. But if you step back and look at both players at 24 years old and 26 years old there's just no reasonable way to actually covet Lance Stephenson upside over Lopez. That's really all I've been trying to say.

You are viewing upside. im viewing right now. and right now i dont see how lance can be any worse then bogs or karasev. i dont think either has any elite upside to be honest. i think a change of scenery maybe both guys can have a good 4-6 week run, but overall neither is becoming an all-star type.

As far as being objective, I posted all the numbers, raw, shooting, advanced, situational and across the board lopez is having his worst season and has gone to a permiter big with a pretty extreme shift in tendencies.

While I don't agree with all of it I think that was a great post. Good read. Thanks for taking the time and that approach to explaining your perspective.

[enetric]

Wow, I just checked out the other site for the first time, and the thread on Prokhorov selling the team is pretty hilarious. The guy who runs the site is pretty full of ****, and pretty much resembles the attitude that I hate.

Reality: there is not a single team I wouldn't trade places with right now in terms of where the franchise stands and how they look moving forward. Even the Sixers or Knicks...I'd EASILY trade places with them. At least they're going to get a lottery pick for their trouble. And at least the Knicks have a star in place that can attract other star players. And at least they're going to have cap space soon. And the Sixers have a bunch of young talent that can either progress into something great or can fetch them high end talent (along with their cap space). We have neither of those things.

Someone there said it best: cap space without any foundation and no future is WORTHLESS. The real stars of the league that are worth pursuing are not trying to make as much money as possible, or be in the spotlight, or be in a flashy city, or get as many endorsements as possible...they're trying to team up with other stars and win championships. And pretty much every team in the league is going to have cap space when we do. Why in the hell would anyone choose us? The guys that are looking for a payday from a team foolish enough to give them one are going to be like who got max deals in 2010: Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudemire, Rudy Gay, and Carlos Boozer. That caliber of player. So we're going to tie up our cap space by massively overpaying for B-grade talent. Which means we'll be doing the same song and dance all over again. You need assets and young talent if you want to build a contender, that's just the way it works. You can't give me any successful NBA team that was able to build a contender purely through free agency, and without utilizing any draft picks or assets. Miami had young, talented players in Butler and Odom to help bring in Shaq, to pair up with another star player that they drafted (Wade). And that same star player that they kept from the draft was the only reason why they were able to bring in two other stars (LeBron and Bosh) to pair up with him and win more championships. Without that foundation, they wouldn't have won anything.

Also, I can't believe that anyone was actually trying to argue that Joe Dumars was a worse GM than Billy King. LOL. Joe Dumars put together a championship squad at one point, a team that was also able to have sustained success and make the conference finals or beyond in like 6 straight seasons. I'd take a championship season and 50 years of suck over whatever the hell we've gotten with Billy King. At least I'd have that championship to point to and reminisce on.

It's hard to be excited about the near future for this franchise. But rewind a year and a half and it was all champagne and roses around here at the potential of what we built. So on some level I think we need to suck it up. there are no guarantees. We went all in it didn't work out and now the margin has been called and the price Is draft picks. be grateful it isn't cap space as well.

I'm not saying there is any sort of slam dunk at signing big time guys however it is possible to be down to the bare bones and to go recruiting. At the end of the day the last Miami roster was a lot closer to that then what you were describing with prospects and picks. Derron was supposed to be that veteran guy everyone said we would be able to recruit with the next time around. Didn't work out. Can't cry about it now.

based on what is set up here I actually hope Porky is still around. Because if we are bare bones I would be very curious to see what happens with a wide open cap, the Barclay center instead of New Jersey and his checkbook.

[Paradise]

I think it's a little unfair to keep bringing up the 2010 free agency situation. We were coming off a 12-70 season. What free agent is going to sign with a franchise that already was in relocation and coming off one of the worst seasons in sports history?

The initial plan was to build a culture and style of play under Jason Kidd and let Kidd do the free agent recruiting along with Proky representing the willingness to spend and Jay-Z pitching the endorsement opportunities.That all went out the window with Kidd's exit this summer.

Yeah, we aren't obviously favorites to sign a superstar in free agency with other teams making similar pitches but we have a far better chance than we ever did. We never had 50 million in cap space to spend in 2010.

[NyCeEvO]

I think it's a little unfair to keep bringing up the 2010 free agency situation. We were coming off a 12-70 season. What free agent is going to sign with a franchise that already was in relocation and coming off one of the worst seasons in sports history?

The initial plan was to build a culture and style of play under Jason Kidd and let Kidd do the free agent recruiting along with Proky representing the willingness to spend and Jay-Z pitching the endorsement opportunities.That all went out the window with Kidd's exit this summer.

Yeah, we aren't obviously favorites to sign a superstar in free agency with other teams making similar pitches but we have a far better chance than we ever did. We never had 50 million in cap space to spend in 2010.

Well, we don't have Jay-Z as close as we did before, we don't have Kidd at all, and we may not even have the same owner who's willing to spend to a fault by the time 2016 rolls around.

We also have to look at the position of other teams who will have cap space. Most star players don't change teams so the fact that we're 1) expecting them to do so 2) choose the Nets over other more compelling teams is a tall order, especially given how much turmoil and bad press we've been getting over the years.

I'm Schwartz isn't going to deal with us anymore. There will be no hometown discount from Lopez' (or his representatives now).

We're burning already existent bridges and failing to set up new ones. We're in deep trouble.

[therealbig3]

I'm not comparing the chances of the 2010 Nets to the 2016 Nets...I'm saying that once the true blue chip superstars are off the table (so basically, Kevin Durant)...there's a bunch of B-level talent that will be looking for top dollar, because they can get it. Compare that to the guys who got their payday in 2010: Joe Johnson, Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudemire, Rudy Gay. It's the same thing. Unless we land Kevin Durant, we'll be signing guys like that to max deals, and then whine within a year about how little bang for our buck we're getting, and how we're not true contenders, and how we have to wait 4-5 years until we blow it up again.

The 2016 Nets might play in a far better location, in a far better arena, but our front office, roster construction, and future outlook aren't any better than it was in NJ. In fact, they're a lot worse. And in 2016, the free agent market isn't close to as strong as it was in 2010. There's only 1 guy in 2016 free agency that's going to be worthy of a max contract, and he's not coming here.

[therealbig3]

It's hard to be excited about the near future for this franchise. But rewind a year and a half and it was all champagne and roses around here at the potential of what we built. So on some level I think we need to suck it up. there are no guarantees. We went all in it didn't work out and now the margin has been called and the price Is draft picks. be grateful it isn't cap space as well.

Well not exactly. A year and a half ago, that was more of a quick fix and what everyone felt was a great recovery to the whole Dwight Howard/Gerald Wallace disaster. At that point though, we had already known that we were pick-strapped, and the most impending draft pick we're going to have to give up/swap is our 2015 pick with Atlanta, which was given up long before the Paul Pierce/KG trade and definitely pissed off a lot of fans and definitely had already impacted our future prospects.

Yeah, the KG/PP trade didn't work out, that much is obvious. I'm not going to complain about the 2016, 2017 (swap rights), and 2018 picks now, because I didn't have a problem with it at the time of the trade. But some fans DID make it known that they felt it was an overpay at the time (like VC4P), and they did point out at the time that we had already given up pick swaps to Atlanta and wouldn't be in full control of our own pick until 2019.

For me, I just have a problem with the idea that 2016 is going to solve all of our problems, because cap space! If I was a free agent, and I was looking at potential destinations in an objective manner, Brooklyn is one of the last teams I'd consider when you look at the lack of existing talent, the incompetent front office, the instability at the coaching position, and the significant lack of draft picks/young assets which would make it really hard to surround me with the talent I need. All of this was the only reason why Melo took so long before finally agreeing to stay with the Knicks, and that's only because that extra 30 million spoke volumes. And they were only able to offer him that, because they had his Bird rights. Take that extra 30 million away, and Melo signs with the Bulls on the first day of free agency. That's us in 2016 free agency, essentially: the team with all of those problems (and then some) without that extra 30 million to offer.

At the end of the day the last Miami roster was a lot closer to that then what you were describing with prospects and picks.

I agree that signing LeBron (especially him) and Bosh was a bigger deal than retaining Dwyane Wade for Miami, which means that their championship teams were mainly built via free agency...but they were NEVER going to sign LeBron (who was the last piece that propelled them to contender status) unless they had Dwyane Wade there first. Without drafting Wade and holding onto him for 7 years and letting him develop into a star player that they could build around, Miami wasn't going anywhere in 2010 free agency. There needs to be something appealing about a team from a roster standpoint if you're trying to woo a top-level star to take a paycut from their original team or to turn down other attractive destinations for you, and we just don't have that. Mason Plumlee isn't going to convince Kevin Durant to sign with us. Wall/Beal in Washington might. Lowry/Derozan in Toronto might. Westbrook/30 million dollars might convince him to stay where he is.

[Paradise]

I think it's a little unfair to keep bringing up the 2010 free agency situation. We were coming off a 12-70 season. What free agent is going to sign with a franchise that already was in relocation and coming off one of the worst seasons in sports history?

The initial plan was to build a culture and style of play under Jason Kidd and let Kidd do the free agent recruiting along with Proky representing the willingness to spend and Jay-Z pitching the endorsement opportunities.That all went out the window with Kidd's exit this summer.

Yeah, we aren't obviously favorites to sign a superstar in free agency with other teams making similar pitches but we have a far better chance than we ever did. We never had 50 million in cap space to spend in 2010.

Well, we don't have Jay-Z as close as we did before, we don't have Kidd at all, and we may not even have the same owner who's willing to spend to a fault by the time 2016 rolls around.

We also have to look at the position of other teams who will have cap space. Most star players don't change teams so the fact that we're 1) expecting them to do so 2) choose the Nets over other more compelling teams is a tall order, especially given how much turmoil and bad press we've been getting over the years.

I'm Schwartz isn't going to deal with us anymore. There will be no hometown discount from Lopez' (or his representatives now).

We're burning already existent bridges and failing to set up new ones. We're in deep trouble.

First off, I highly doubt Schwartz is going to hold a grudge against us. Especially if we change ownership and our entire front office. That has literally never happened before and I never saw Lopez re-signing here anyhow. His name was dragged through Dwightmare. This isn't anything new to his representatives.

And in terms of 2016, I've been advocating to go the Denver Nuggets/Atlanta Hawks model. You don't need a bunch of stars to build a good team.

[therealbig3]

I think it's a little unfair to keep bringing up the 2010 free agency situation. We were coming off a 12-70 season. What free agent is going to sign with a franchise that already was in relocation and coming off one of the worst seasons in sports history?

The initial plan was to build a culture and style of play under Jason Kidd and let Kidd do the free agent recruiting along with Proky representing the willingness to spend and Jay-Z pitching the endorsement opportunities.That all went out the window with Kidd's exit this summer.

Yeah, we aren't obviously favorites to sign a superstar in free agency with other teams making similar pitches but we have a far better chance than we ever did. We never had 50 million in cap space to spend in 2010.

Well, we don't have Jay-Z as close as we did before, we don't have Kidd at all, and we may not even have the same owner who's willing to spend to a fault by the time 2016 rolls around.

We also have to look at the position of other teams who will have cap space. Most star players don't change teams so the fact that we're 1) expecting them to do so 2) choose the Nets over other more compelling teams is a tall order, especially given how much turmoil and bad press we've been getting over the years.

I'm Schwartz isn't going to deal with us anymore. There will be no hometown discount from Lopez' (or his representatives now).

We're burning already existent bridges and failing to set up new ones. We're in deep trouble.

First off, I highly doubt Schwartz is going to hold a grudge against us. Especially if we change ownership and our entire front office. That has literally never happened before and I never saw Lopez re-signing here anyhow. His name was dragged through Dwightmare. This isn't anything new to his representatives.

And in terms of 2016, I've been advocating to go the Denver Nuggets model. You don't need a bunch of stars to build a good team.

Going the Nuggets route requires great coaching, like they had in George Karl. Also note that they never achieved any sort of playoff success after they traded Melo, just 1 and dones, so I'm not sure if that's the model we need to aspire to. Karl is great for taking a flawed team and having them play exciting ball and overachieve during the regular season, but in terms of playoff success, that's not going to get you anywhere. If we're starting with a blank slate, that's not the ideal route to go, it's more of a backup plan.

And like I said, that required great coaching, but also smart signings and smart trades. Tell me if we have any of those things going for us. When Lionel Hollins is being praised as the best coach we've had in YEARS, a proven failure of a coach who was fired from a Memphis team that hasn't missed a beat without him, that tells me a lot about the ability of this front office to evaluate coaching talent. I don't need to get into smart signings and smart trades, we haven't been about that since Rod Thorn was here, and even he royally screwed that up towards the end of his tenure.

Now, cleaning house in the front office and starting anew with a smart GM (like Toronto has in Ujiri), that's promising, and maybe then I'll have some hope. But even in that case, it's a long shot, because a lot of damage has already been done, and that GM is going to have to try and build a team without any draft picks for the foreseeable future. That's a tough spot to put any GM in. He'd need to be literally perfect in terms of free agent signings, trades, and hiring a coaching staff in order to compensate for that.

[Paradise]

Going the Nuggets route requires great coaching, like they had in George Karl. Also note that they never achieved any sort of playoff success after they traded Melo, just 1 and dones, so I'm not sure if that's the model we need to aspire to. Karl is great for taking a flawed team and having them play exciting ball and overachieve during the regular season, but in terms of playoff success, that's not going to get you anywhere. If we're starting with a blank slate, that's not the ideal route to go, it's more of a backup plan.

So, let me get this straight.

Building a deep team of quality hard working role players is not a good idea and chasing the likes of Love, Durant, Howard and Horford will result into a failure. So, what's the plan? It's either one or the other.

When Lionel Hollins is being praised as the best coach we've had in YEARS, a proven failure of a coach who was fired from a Memphis team that hasn't missed a beat without him, that tells me a lot about the ability of this front office to evaluate coaching talent.

He was let go because of his poor relationship with the front office on roster decisions. It had nothing to do with on-court performance. He developed a culture and a style that Memphis to this day was reluctant to change and we are on pace to finish with the best defensive efficiency since 2005. He IS the best coach we've had in years.

Now, cleaning house in the front office and starting anew with a smart GM (like Toronto has in Ujiri), that's promising, and maybe then I'll have some hope. But even in that case, it's a long shot, because a lot of damage has already been done, and that GM is going to have to try and build a team without any draft picks for the foreseeable future. That's a tough spot to put any GM in. He'd need to be literally perfect in terms of free agent signings, trades, and hiring a coaching staff in order to compensate for that.

Phoenix, Toronto, Atlanta, Memphis were all mainly built through free agency and trades. So, It's a doable. Building a competitive team that is also financially responsible isn't hard as some on here try to make it seem. I just don't see alot of great GMs available to execute a proper vision.