If Push Came to Shove... (Irving Trade)

[enetric]

You think it's a big leap to say our 2 stars had input on this Kyrie decision?

Yes, considering KD straight up he didnt even feel comfortable having input.

The team essentially banned Kyrie. They could've easily tried to make this work, let him practice, play road games, etc. Woj reported yesterday that they would be involved. Even if you don't trust him, it would be insanity for Tsai and Marks to do this without consulting Harden and KD. We went from potentially having Kyrie play 41 games to 0. That's a HUGE difference. If Kyrie soured on the team for this, he may never suit up for the Nets again.

I dont view it as huge. they made a decision that part time isnt best for the team. just like kyrie made a decision getting vaccinated wasnt best for him. i dont think its anything with huge implicaitons, animosity, or that can not be revisisted/undone.

I know you read Can't Knock The Hustle but you're way oversimplifying KD-Kyrie's relationship. Life isn't so black and white. This isn't some regular situation that their relationship has seen before. If Kyrie was getting slammed in the media for skipping an interview or taking too many shots, KD would be the first to defend him. This is an unprecedented situation that could cause Kyrie to be traded, retire, or sit out the whole year. Personally, he'll always support Kyrie. Professionally, this is a REAL test.

Not just the book. durants podcasts, his segments on the boardroom, etc. there is no test. he supports kyrie, this is why they are tight. when it comes to on the court, he is gonna let kyrie sort it out with marks.

It's okay to acknowledge that.

acknowledge what?

Yes, but it was actually reported today that both KD and Harden were brought in yesterday and consulted on the situation before Marks ultimately announced the decision to ban Kyrie. If KD and Harden went to bat and said, no half a Kyrie is better than no Kyrie are you of the mindset that Marks makes this announcement today without those two on board? And if he did go against their view on the subject...dont you think we will get a sense of that from KD in the coming days? It's one thing to verbally support Kyrie's right to choose to the press. But how do you simultaneously pretend you weren't in sync with your team banning him? They either agreed with the decison, or the team ignored them and we will get a sense of that from KD shortly.

[Prokorov]

The latest rumor leads us to believe, he is not against the vaccine just championing the rights of those afraid to get the vaccine. So technically, he's not saying he is anti science if we believe this latest round yet, he is unvaccinated and validated those fears in the face of science. He claims he is standing up for his community. What is more likely...he leads his community to getting their jobs back because he remains unvaccinated, or they remain unemployed, unvaccinated, and death rates go up within the community he is claiming to support. Meanwhile, he is also failing to do his own job and letting down everyone he made a commitment to. So if its anti government or anti science what's the difference? The end result is a worse outcome for everyone, but hey its "the principle of the thing" right?

The difference is accuracy.

Especially when it comes to Kyrie, the narrative is written long before any clarity comes out. Would either one play out to a negative impact for himself, the team, society? maybe? probably? That wasn't what I was getting at. I was pointing out the semi-baseless claim that he has made some strong anti-vaxx/anti-science stand when all we heard from him is "its my decision im keeping it private" and the most reliable source said basically verbatim that he is not anti-vaxx.

I think most likely is that whatever hill he chooses to die on vs. the mandate is mostly irrelevant. This will and already is playing out in the courts with much bigger players then Kyrie (Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Cops, Firefighters, etc...). Kyrie has a huge platform in general, but in this aspect his influence is nil unless he is providing funds/legal council for any of the plaintiffs (which he has done multiple times in wrongful imprisonment cases and race legislation).

As far as letting his teammates down, I don't think that is the pulse. verbally they all say that. if its true or not is speculation. KD has been pretty vocal on this and similar Kyrie stuff... the book speaks to it alot. still speculation as of his stance today, but he seems to be able to seperate it with Kyrie. im sure he wants him there, i dont think he feels 'let down;Are the fans let down?
absolutely. We were certain to be the collateral damage.

Back to the main point... anti-science vs anti-government. the former has no traction or basis on anything of value. The ladder is very arguable that the government is overstepping their bounds and that the mandate is overreaching (1 judge has already ruled this way in 1 of the cases).

Maybe its all moot/the same in the end, but supporting that the easter bunny is real vs. supporting that the government should not be able to infringe on citizens constitutional rights is a bit different.

[Prokorov]

Yes, but it was actually reported today that both KD and Harden were brought in yesterday and consulted on the situation before Marks ultimately announced the decision to ban Kyrie. If KD and Harden went to bat and said, no half a Kyrie is better than no Kyrie are you of the mindset that Marks makes this announcement today without those two on board? And if he did go against their view on the subject...dont you think we will get a sense of that from KD in the coming days? It's one thing to verbally support Kyrie's right to choose to the press. But how do you simultaneously pretend you weren't in sync with your team banning him? They either agreed with the decison, or the team ignored them and we will get a sense of that from KD shortly.

I think there is a big difference between consulting your stars and your stars being the driving force for a decision. I think it likely played out more like Harden/KD saying "do what you have to do, it's Kyrie's decision and you need to handle that how you handle that. We want him on the team, but short of trading him, do what you gotta do" I think there general view is hands off... unless our taling about getting rid of him permenantly, we dont want to be involved

I also dont think this is something taken with Animosity on Kyrie's side. I think he also views it the same. Do what you need to do, ill go through my process, you go through yours. we will keep in touch and see what options/path this takes.

I think it is over dramaticized how these things play out. it is in no ones interest to try and bully anyone or go down irreversible paths. Nothing that Kyrie or the Nets have done to this point cant be undone in seconds. There is still a ton to play out with the city/mandate and there are still tons of options on both sides. And we still havent player 1 real game yet. I think both sides are just going day to day with it... while the narrative is moving at a pace where some irreversible huge black or white decision has to be eminent. that typically isnt how it works.

[enetric]

i dont think its one or the other.

I think you can be committed to basketball and have something come in the way that is also of high value to you to the point where you have to chose, despite both being important.

I dont think this mandate happened and kyrie was like "whatever im not really bought in to basketball anyhow".

He had no control over the mandate. thats the city. he was forced to choose between 2 things that are important to him. you can never win in those situations. if the mandate was in idaho instead of NY it would be a non-issue. but it is NY so he had to chose.

And maybe its dumb that he doesnt want to get vacinated, but at the end of the day its his body and its important to him (which being a vegan among other things) he takes what goes in his body hyper seriously. its still his right, and government can put restrictions on freedoms but they cant force what you put in your body.

At some point, the mandate will be lifted. to him, waiting it out or waiting for aloop hole or waiting for other court decisions is the path that most closes gets him "both"

Life isnt this and that. Eventually we all learn its this or that. A team sport the sacrifice is...team first. Year after year, team after team Kyrie seems to find a way to choose to focus on the individual over the team. There is a pattern. Even if we support his right to choose, we can acknowledge the pattern.

I dont disagree, I just dont think there is an issue with that. There is this myth and outdated thinking that your job comes before yourself... or that putting yourself first is somehow looked down upon or morally wrong. You should always come first. your morals, your family, your physical and mental healthy. that should always come first.

There may be limitations or consequences of certain choices that come from sticking with your beliefs, but there isnt anything wrong with that. At some point the CBA or the Law is going to make push come to shove... but honestly, what is so bad that Kyrie has missed time for?
-Injury
-his childs mothers complication during pregnancy (details unclear if this was one)
-his childs birth
-Kobes death
-protesting the minnesota racist stuff
-protesting the mandate/not being vaccinated

the first 4 of 6 to me are non-approachable for criticism. the minnesota thing he wasnt the only one who sat (multiple wolves sat). it was minimal time missed.

The current one can certainly be criticized, but it is also something not initiated by Kyrie. I mean there is a pandemic and a mandate being argued in several courts daily. if the mandate was in Ohio, we arent talking about this. if there is no pandemic, we arent talking about this.

Basketball sacrafice is about passing the ball for a better shot instead of trying to get your own. basketball sacrafice is accepting a bench role because it is better for the team. Basketball sacrafice is letting someone else be the star/take the most shots because they are a better player.

Basketball sacrafice is not ditching your morals/rights/personal choices/religious choices because some temporary mandate prevents you from playing if you dont.

Also, good to see you, this place is always better when youre around and posting.

Thank you my friend that is nice of you to say. And I think there is a lot of validity in your points. And I do think the mandate is flawed and being using inconsistently. However, I can't get around one central issue. And that is perspective. The perspective a job or in this case a team has to have is are you someone we can rely on consistently? And consistently Kyrie has shown he is incapable of ensuring he will be reliable while following his own moral compass. And in this case his moral compass while a good cause, is ultimately leading others down the wrong path...and has consequences that are even beyond the control of his employer. At some point...doesnt the team, or employer still have to be TEAM first? And arent we the fans entitled to be allowed to expect at a minimum whenever healthy he will report to work on time no matter what he has to do to be there? Why are we required to support his choices when time and again his choices seem to come at the detriment of the team he plays for?

[enetric]

Doesn’t Harden stand to make more money if he becomes a free agent anyway? If so, I’m not worried about him at all.

I’d only be concerned about him leaving if the Lakers had the cap space to sign him, but since they don’t (I assume, haven’t looked it up) I don’t think we’ll really be in serious competition with any other team for his services. Plus, other teams don’t have an elite off-ball superstar like KD, whose game isn’t predicted on ball domination like Harden. It’s as good of a high level talent match as you can ask for. I think Harden knows this.

Hey buddy how are you? One problem. Knicks can create the cap space and have tradeable assets now. Something could be put together.

I think if KD hadn't extended, it would be more concerning. I'd worry about Kyrie not resigning, but not Harden. This is harden's last super mega deal. He can get the full supermax as a 9+ year vet for 1 extra year if he waits vs. extending. And barring injury, he wont really find a better situation then with KD.

Only thing that would change my mind, is if he wins a title this year, and then a ring is less motivation and he just wants to score 35 a game as the man again. but in that scenario, we win a title and have KD + cap space.

I agree it's unlikely. But he also turned down Houston to extend. Say he opts not to extend because he is concerned about the Kyrie situation. And KD gets hurt again...has to miss part of next year. You are Harden now 32...do you start to consider your options from free agency to SnT? I dont know about you, but I would feel better Harden extends now that 33 year old KD did. I would have been fine with all opting out and blowing it up if need be or adding one more year. Now? I want the signature on that contract. And I think it's reasonable to speculate Kyrie is currrently having an impact in several negative ways on this team.

[enetric]

The latest rumor leads us to believe, he is not against the vaccine just championing the rights of those afraid to get the vaccine. So technically, he's not saying he is anti science if we believe this latest round yet, he is unvaccinated and validated those fears in the face of science. He claims he is standing up for his community. What is more likely...he leads his community to getting their jobs back because he remains unvaccinated, or they remain unemployed, unvaccinated, and death rates go up within the community he is claiming to support. Meanwhile, he is also failing to do his own job and letting down everyone he made a commitment to. So if its anti government or anti science what's the difference? The end result is a worse outcome for everyone, but hey its "the principle of the thing" right?

The difference is accuracy.

Especially when it comes to Kyrie, the narrative is written long before any clarity comes out. Would either one play out to a negative impact for himself, the team, society? maybe? probably? That wasn't what I was getting at. I was pointing out the semi-baseless claim that he has made some strong anti-vaxx/anti-science stand when all we heard from him is "its my decision im keeping it private" and the most reliable source said basically verbatim that he is not anti-vaxx.

I think most likely is that whatever hill he chooses to die on vs. the mandate is mostly irrelevant. This will and already is playing out in the courts with much bigger players then Kyrie (Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Cops, Firefighters, etc...). Kyrie has a huge platform in general, but in this aspect his influence is nil unless he is providing funds/legal council for any of the plaintiffs (which he has done multiple times in wrongful imprisonment cases and race legislation).

As far as letting his teammates down, I don't think that is the pulse. verbally they all say that. if its true or not is speculation. KD has been pretty vocal on this and similar Kyrie stuff... the book speaks to it alot. still speculation as of his stance today, but he seems to be able to seperate it with Kyrie. im sure he wants him there, i dont think he feels 'let down;Are the fans let down?
absolutely. We were certain to be the collateral damage.

Back to the main point... anti-science vs anti-government. the former has no traction or basis on anything of value. The ladder is very arguable that the government is overstepping their bounds and that the mandate is overreaching (1 judge has already ruled this way in 1 of the cases).

Maybe its all moot/the same in the end, but supporting that the easter bunny is real vs. supporting that the government should not be able to infringe on citizens constitutional rights is a bit different.

No I got your points on the actual difference, I was just pointing out in the end if he supports those to make bad decisions in the face of the science for the moral high ground, it actually is moot. Logically, the best way he could help his community is not to validate their choice to remain unvaccinated, but urge them to GET vaccinated. That is of course assuming he is not actually anti vax. That part of the story seems to change daily. From there, lend your voice to also champion against the mandate while still urging others to make the safer decision which will of course also preserve their jobs. He does more harm to those he claims to represent is my point.

[Prokorov]

Thank you my friend that is nice of you to say. And I think there is a lot of validity in your points. And I do think the mandate is flawed and being using inconsistently. However, I can't get around one central issue. And that is perspective. The perspective a job or in this case a team has to have is are you someone we can rely on consistently? And consistently Kyrie has shown he is incapable of ensuring he will be reliable while following his own moral compass. And in this case his moral compass while a good cause, is ultimately leading others down the wrong path...and has consequences that are even beyond the control of his employer. At some point...doesnt the team, or employer still have to be TEAM first? And arent we the fans entitled to be allowed to expect at a minimum whenever healthy he will report to work on time no matter what he has to do to be there? Why are we required to support his choices when time and again his choices seem to come at the detriment of the team he plays for?

We're not required to support him. And for the team, its like 75% Risk/Reward and 25% being player friendly. Look I love Kyrie but keeping him around is half for his talent and half for him bringing in KD/Maximizing our title chances during KDs 1-2 prime years he has left.

My point on what you quoted here was less about support and more about the perception of his missed time vs. the reality of it. The crux of most of the Kyrie stuff is that it takes so long from the day he misses time to the day we get the real scoop that the media has already created a dozen narratives (most pretty negative because they hate him - which is mostly on Kyrie) about how he is missing time for unreasonable things.

Most people off the top of their heads would guess Kyrie has missed "dozens" of games for "personal reasons" during his career. I;ll dig it up from the other thread but i think it was something like 9 games in 10 seasons to personal reasons. 7 of those games came with the nets (1 for Kobe's death, 6 for some combo of his kids birth/protesting minnesota).

He missed twice as many games last year to injury/COVID protocol then to health reasons. And prior to last year, he had missed just 3 or 4 out of 652 career games to 'personal reasons'.

Circling back to my original point, his real risk/disruption has been injury. All his missed time with injury gets lumped into the few games missed to 'personal reasons' and media narrative and its blown up bigger then it should. The more accurate argument around kyrie's non-basketball impact is he is a complete wacko whose comments/media approach can cause team distractions. (or bad teammate based on comments but given the celtics/nets/cavs public comments before/after he played for them the bad teammate thing seems unlikely at worst.)

He stood to miss 41 games or all games with marks new stand, but as of today, he missed 0. so along the lines of what i said, despite all the hoopola, his time missed for personal reasons is basically nil... more so if you think time missed for his kid/kobes death is acceptable

[enetric]

Yes, but it was actually reported today that both KD and Harden were brought in yesterday and consulted on the situation before Marks ultimately announced the decision to ban Kyrie. If KD and Harden went to bat and said, no half a Kyrie is better than no Kyrie are you of the mindset that Marks makes this announcement today without those two on board? And if he did go against their view on the subject...dont you think we will get a sense of that from KD in the coming days? It's one thing to verbally support Kyrie's right to choose to the press. But how do you simultaneously pretend you weren't in sync with your team banning him? They either agreed with the decison, or the team ignored them and we will get a sense of that from KD shortly.

I think there is a big difference between consulting your stars and your stars being the driving force for a decision. I think it likely played out more like Harden/KD saying "do what you have to do, it's Kyrie's decision and you need to handle that how you handle that. We want him on the team, but short of trading him, do what you gotta do" I think there general view is hands off... unless our taling about getting rid of him permenantly, we dont want to be involved

I also dont think this is something taken with Animosity on Kyrie's side. I think he also views it the same. Do what you need to do, ill go through my process, you go through yours. we will keep in touch and see what options/path this takes.

I think it is over dramaticized how these things play out. it is in no ones interest to try and bully anyone or go down irreversible paths. Nothing that Kyrie or the Nets have done to this point cant be undone in seconds. There is still a ton to play out with the city/mandate and there are still tons of options on both sides. And we still havent player 1 real game yet. I think both sides are just going day to day with it... while the narrative is moving at a pace where some irreversible huge black or white decision has to be eminent. that typically isnt how it works.

I agree with every word you just said. But there is one thing lost about my point. It would seem HIGHLY unlikely KD and Harden were OPPOSED to this decision by the team. Neither advocated AGAINST this plan. If they did, based on what we know about the power of players today...we can reasonably surmise we will know about it from KD and or Harden in the coming days. And that is still saying something even if Marks, KD, Harden and everyone else support Kyrie to the press and say he is welcome back any time.

[Prokorov]

Hey buddy how are you? One problem. Knicks can create the cap space and have tradeable assets now. Something could be put together.

I think if KD hadn't extended, it would be more concerning. I'd worry about Kyrie not resigning, but not Harden. This is harden's last super mega deal. He can get the full supermax as a 9+ year vet for 1 extra year if he waits vs. extending. And barring injury, he wont really find a better situation then with KD.

Only thing that would change my mind, is if he wins a title this year, and then a ring is less motivation and he just wants to score 35 a game as the man again. but in that scenario, we win a title and have KD + cap space.

I agree it's unlikely. But he also turned down Houston to extend. Say he opts not to extend because he is concerned about the Kyrie situation. And KD gets hurt again...has to miss part of next year. You are Harden now 32...do you start to consider your options from free agency to SnT? I dont know about you, but I would feel better Harden extends now that 33 year old KD did. I would have been fine with all opting out and blowing it up if need be or adding one more year. Now? I want the signature on that contract. And I think it's reasonable to speculate Kyrie is currrently having an impact in several negative ways on this team.

I mean, its possible.... but i dont think Harden waiting to the offseason (where he can add an additional 62 million) is any signal that it is a concern for him. With the Nets luck, i wont discount your scenario... but we are a long way from Kyrie sitting out the year + KD serious injury.

Of course id feel better if he was extended... a bird in the hand and all that. But im like. 0.01% concerned about him coming back. I'd worry about morey/sixers but he shunned them for us despite both philly/Rockets pushing for that deal. Honestly, I dont think Kyrie factors into hardens decision... I think KD/A title do. thats just my speculation/read of it though.

[enetric]

Thank you my friend that is nice of you to say. And I think there is a lot of validity in your points. And I do think the mandate is flawed and being using inconsistently. However, I can't get around one central issue. And that is perspective. The perspective a job or in this case a team has to have is are you someone we can rely on consistently? And consistently Kyrie has shown he is incapable of ensuring he will be reliable while following his own moral compass. And in this case his moral compass while a good cause, is ultimately leading others down the wrong path...and has consequences that are even beyond the control of his employer. At some point...doesnt the team, or employer still have to be TEAM first? And arent we the fans entitled to be allowed to expect at a minimum whenever healthy he will report to work on time no matter what he has to do to be there? Why are we required to support his choices when time and again his choices seem to come at the detriment of the team he plays for?

We're not required to support him. And for the team, its like 75% Risk/Reward and 25% being player friendly. Look I love Kyrie but keeping him around is half for his talent and half for him bringing in KD/Maximizing our title chances during KDs 1-2 prime years he has left.

My point on what you quoted here was less about support and more about the perception of his missed time vs. the reality of it. The crux of most of the Kyrie stuff is that it takes so long from the day he misses time to the day we get the real scoop that the media has already created a dozen narratives (most pretty negative because they hate him - which is mostly on Kyrie) about how he is missing time for unreasonable things.

Most people off the top of their heads would guess Kyrie has missed "dozens" of games for "personal reasons" during his career. I;ll dig it up from the other thread but i think it was something like 9 games in 10 seasons to personal reasons. 7 of those games came with the nets (1 for Kobe's death, 6 for some combo of his kids birth/protesting minnesota).

He missed twice as many games last year to injury/COVID protocol then to health reasons. And prior to last year, he had missed just 3 or 4 out of 652 career games to 'personal reasons'.

Circling back to my original point, his real risk/disruption has been injury. All his missed time with injury gets lumped into the few games missed to 'personal reasons' and media narrative and its blown up bigger then it should. The more accurate argument around kyrie's non-basketball impact is he is a complete wacko whose comments/media approach can cause team distractions. (or bad teammate based on comments but given the celtics/nets/cavs public comments before/after he played for them the bad teammate thing seems unlikely at worst.)

He stood to miss 41 games or all games with marks new stand, but as of today, he missed 0. so along the lines of what i said, despite all the hoopola, his time missed for personal reasons is basically nil... more so if you think time missed for his kid/kobes death is acceptable

Those are good points. His personal time is an over reach by the media. I think the bigger issue is that third team in a row, his issues always seem to be individual over team. Even of people love him and say all nice things...he does end up costing his team. And this latest round is monumental to what we are trying to accomplish this season. Seeing the past history, it makes it harder not feel it's him being unreliable.

[Prokorov]

I agree with every word you just said. But there is one thing lost about my point. It would seem HIGHLY unlikely KD and Harden were OPPOSED to this decision by the team. Neither advocated AGAINST this plan. If they did, based on what we know about the power of players today...we can reasonably surmise we will know about it from KD and or Harden in the coming days. And that is still saying something even if Marks, KD, Harden and everyone else support Kyrie to the press and say he is welcome back any time.

I agree, but i view it differently. I don't think the decision really is one of great consequence from the players eyes. Like its not some irreversible, permanent thing. And I think there feeling is more one of "hands off" then it is "we arent against it". I think regardless of which way marks went, they would have been like "do what you need to do, short of getting rid of him". Like if marks was like "i think were gonna let him go part time until this thing is sorted" i think they also woudln't oppose that.

I think that all 3 not only would welcome him back, but would be overjoyed to welcome him back.

But maybe im misreading it. But to me, holding him out is just the team doing what they need to do like kyrie is doing what he feels he needs to do. Neither side has made an irreversible, permanent, or binding decision. snap of a finger on either side and things can reverse course.

[enetric]

I think if KD hadn't extended, it would be more concerning. I'd worry about Kyrie not resigning, but not Harden. This is harden's last super mega deal. He can get the full supermax as a 9+ year vet for 1 extra year if he waits vs. extending. And barring injury, he wont really find a better situation then with KD.

Only thing that would change my mind, is if he wins a title this year, and then a ring is less motivation and he just wants to score 35 a game as the man again. but in that scenario, we win a title and have KD + cap space.

I agree it's unlikely. But he also turned down Houston to extend. Say he opts not to extend because he is concerned about the Kyrie situation. And KD gets hurt again...has to miss part of next year. You are Harden now 32...do you start to consider your options from free agency to SnT? I dont know about you, but I would feel better Harden extends now that 33 year old KD did. I would have been fine with all opting out and blowing it up if need be or adding one more year. Now? I want the signature on that contract. And I think it's reasonable to speculate Kyrie is currrently having an impact in several negative ways on this team.

I mean, its possible.... but i dont think Harden waiting to the offseason (where he can add an additional 62 million) is any signal that it is a concern for him. With the Nets luck, i wont discount your scenario... but we are a long way from Kyrie sitting out the year + KD serious injury.

Of course id feel better if he was extended... a bird in the hand and all that. But im like. 0.01% concerned about him coming back. I'd worry about morey/sixers but he shunned them for us despite both philly/Rockets pushing for that deal. Honestly, I dont think Kyrie factors into hardens decision... I think KD/A title do. thats just my speculation/read of it though.

I agree. But I meant Kyrie today is possibly giving Harden pause to extend today as we expected a month ago. I dont mean it will impact Harden end of year. I just think it could be one of those....would have been done if only type of deals.

[enetric]

I agree with every word you just said. But there is one thing lost about my point. It would seem HIGHLY unlikely KD and Harden were OPPOSED to this decision by the team. Neither advocated AGAINST this plan. If they did, based on what we know about the power of players today...we can reasonably surmise we will know about it from KD and or Harden in the coming days. And that is still saying something even if Marks, KD, Harden and everyone else support Kyrie to the press and say he is welcome back any time.

I agree, but i view it differently. I don't think the decision really is one of great consequence from the players eyes. Like its not some irreversible, permanent thing. And I think there feeling is more one of "hands off" then it is "we arent against it". I think regardless of which way marks went, they would have been like "do what you need to do, short of getting rid of him". Like if marks was like "i think were gonna let him go part time until this thing is sorted" i think they also woudln't oppose that.

I think that all 3 not only would welcome him back, but would be overjoyed to welcome him back.

But maybe im misreading it. But to me, holding him out is just the team doing what they need to do like kyrie is doing what he feels he needs to do. Neither side has made an irreversible, permanent, or binding decision. snap of a finger on either side and things can reverse course.

Again we agree. I just think its telling that this plan is moving forward and that his star buddies didnt say no no, half a Kyrie is better than no Kyrie. That is full throated support. Not...yeah do what you have to do.

[Prokorov]

Thank you my friend that is nice of you to say. And I think there is a lot of validity in your points. And I do think the mandate is flawed and being using inconsistently. However, I can't get around one central issue. And that is perspective. The perspective a job or in this case a team has to have is are you someone we can rely on consistently? And consistently Kyrie has shown he is incapable of ensuring he will be reliable while following his own moral compass. And in this case his moral compass while a good cause, is ultimately leading others down the wrong path...and has consequences that are even beyond the control of his employer. At some point...doesnt the team, or employer still have to be TEAM first? And arent we the fans entitled to be allowed to expect at a minimum whenever healthy he will report to work on time no matter what he has to do to be there? Why are we required to support his choices when time and again his choices seem to come at the detriment of the team he plays for?

We're not required to support him. And for the team, its like 75% Risk/Reward and 25% being player friendly. Look I love Kyrie but keeping him around is half for his talent and half for him bringing in KD/Maximizing our title chances during KDs 1-2 prime years he has left.

My point on what you quoted here was less about support and more about the perception of his missed time vs. the reality of it. The crux of most of the Kyrie stuff is that it takes so long from the day he misses time to the day we get the real scoop that the media has already created a dozen narratives (most pretty negative because they hate him - which is mostly on Kyrie) about how he is missing time for unreasonable things.

Most people off the top of their heads would guess Kyrie has missed "dozens" of games for "personal reasons" during his career. I;ll dig it up from the other thread but i think it was something like 9 games in 10 seasons to personal reasons. 7 of those games came with the nets (1 for Kobe's death, 6 for some combo of his kids birth/protesting minnesota).

He missed twice as many games last year to injury/COVID protocol then to health reasons. And prior to last year, he had missed just 3 or 4 out of 652 career games to 'personal reasons'.

Circling back to my original point, his real risk/disruption has been injury. All his missed time with injury gets lumped into the few games missed to 'personal reasons' and media narrative and its blown up bigger then it should. The more accurate argument around kyrie's non-basketball impact is he is a complete wacko whose comments/media approach can cause team distractions. (or bad teammate based on comments but given the celtics/nets/cavs public comments before/after he played for them the bad teammate thing seems unlikely at worst.)

He stood to miss 41 games or all games with marks new stand, but as of today, he missed 0. so along the lines of what i said, despite all the hoopola, his time missed for personal reasons is basically nil... more so if you think time missed for his kid/kobes death is acceptable

Those are good points. His personal time is an over reach by the media. I think the bigger issue is that third team in a row, his issues always seem to be individual over team. Even of people love him and say all nice things...he does end up costing his team. And this latest round is monumental to what we are trying to accomplish this season. Seeing the past history, it makes it harder not feel it's him being unreliable.

His injuries make him unreliable. It is a legit criticism. its why I was all-in on the Harden trade... not calling anyone out but this board was far from unanimous on it. Because Kyrie/KD are both super injury prone and until the hammy Harden was an iron man.

But the rest is more perception then reality:

-He cost cleveland with injury, not putting himself first.

he was hurt for the '15 and '17 finals. 2016 he was as big (arguably bigger) as lebron for that title. (31 ppg on 55/48/95 in the finals + game winner).

-He cost boston because of injury, not putting himself first.

He missed the '18 playoffs. They went to game 7 vs. lebron. With Kyrie they likely win that series and go to the finals. year 2 Kyrie helped them advance. They lost in round 2 to the #1 seeded bucks/MVP Giannis. People point to them "going further without kyrie" but the prior years playoffs they ran into the number 1 seed in round 3 instead of round 2. otherwise, no difference. in the 2 seasons total, they were better with kyrie then without him, despite the narrative otherwise.... every celtic to a man both while he was a celtic and after defended him. Jaylen Brown put it as blunt as possible:

Read on Twitter

-He has cost the nets because of injury, not putting himself first.

He missed the bubble/most of year 1 to injury. He missed the last few playoff games to the bucks because of injury. the time off for his kid/kobe/protests/social stuff/whatever nonsense cost us nothing. It is hard to even argue the media hoopola around his missed games was a distraction since we won in his absence, stomped boston, and were stomping milwaukee til he got hurt...

I would 100% agree if he misses most/all of this year because of the mandate thing, that would be completely different. but as mentioned, he currently has missed 0 regular season games, and the recent athletic thing to me is promising and maybe even some PR spin that allows to him to get vaccinated and cave to the team while still "fighting his cause"

huge injury risk? 100000%
personal stuff derailing teams? alot more myth then substance

[Prokorov]

I agree it's unlikely. But he also turned down Houston to extend. Say he opts not to extend because he is concerned about the Kyrie situation. And KD gets hurt again...has to miss part of next year. You are Harden now 32...do you start to consider your options from free agency to SnT? I dont know about you, but I would feel better Harden extends now that 33 year old KD did. I would have been fine with all opting out and blowing it up if need be or adding one more year. Now? I want the signature on that contract. And I think it's reasonable to speculate Kyrie is currrently having an impact in several negative ways on this team.

I mean, its possible.... but i dont think Harden waiting to the offseason (where he can add an additional 62 million) is any signal that it is a concern for him. With the Nets luck, i wont discount your scenario... but we are a long way from Kyrie sitting out the year + KD serious injury.

Of course id feel better if he was extended... a bird in the hand and all that. But im like. 0.01% concerned about him coming back. I'd worry about morey/sixers but he shunned them for us despite both philly/Rockets pushing for that deal. Honestly, I dont think Kyrie factors into hardens decision... I think KD/A title do. thats just my speculation/read of it though.

I agree. But I meant Kyrie today is possibly giving Harden pause to extend today as we expected a month ago. I dont mean it will impact Harden end of year. I just think it could be one of those....would have been done if only type of deals.

Fair. i still think its about the cash, but your take is certainly plausible if not likely.

[Prokorov]

I agree with every word you just said. But there is one thing lost about my point. It would seem HIGHLY unlikely KD and Harden were OPPOSED to this decision by the team. Neither advocated AGAINST this plan. If they did, based on what we know about the power of players today...we can reasonably surmise we will know about it from KD and or Harden in the coming days. And that is still saying something even if Marks, KD, Harden and everyone else support Kyrie to the press and say he is welcome back any time.

I agree, but i view it differently. I don't think the decision really is one of great consequence from the players eyes. Like its not some irreversible, permanent thing. And I think there feeling is more one of "hands off" then it is "we arent against it". I think regardless of which way marks went, they would have been like "do what you need to do, short of getting rid of him". Like if marks was like "i think were gonna let him go part time until this thing is sorted" i think they also woudln't oppose that.

I think that all 3 not only would welcome him back, but would be overjoyed to welcome him back.

But maybe im misreading it. But to me, holding him out is just the team doing what they need to do like kyrie is doing what he feels he needs to do. Neither side has made an irreversible, permanent, or binding decision. snap of a finger on either side and things can reverse course.

Again we agree. I just think its telling that this plan is moving forward and that his star buddies didnt say no no, half a Kyrie is better than no Kyrie. That is full throated support. Not...yeah do what you have to do.

I dont think any of them felt like it was going to go that far to where they thought it was part time or nothing or some irreversible course that is going to make or break kyries future. Like i said, i think its more "do what you gotta do, we dont want to be involved. if that gets it done great, unless you are trying to trade him, do what you think is gonna get this done"

again, speculation and ive been wrong before. thats just my read on it.

Either way, the ahtleitc news certainly paves the way for him to cave while sitll keeping some perception he is standing for his morals despite vaccination. ill be refreshing twitter fingers crossed for "kyrie to get vaccine, still proteting mandate" kinda thing

[GTR11]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Okay. I'm officially done. I hope he never plays another game in a Nets uniform.

700,000 people are dead and this is the hill he wants to make his last stand on. He's lost his goddamn mind.

Also, he's a disingenuous liar, because he got caught liking antivax propaganda. I've lost what little respect I had left for this dude. So he's not antivax, but he wants to be a voice for antivaxxers? Does he even listen himself? He's so full of sh*t

Oh please, what his camp is saying:
- if he's off court money will get funny and they'll void his contracts his getting vaccinated.
- if Nets will explore trade options he'll get vaccinated

I welcome that. Let his dumb play around and see what will happen. They going to Ray Rice his for good.

[BigO]

Funny how Kyrie's camp finally says something when the team puts the pressure and spotlight on him. This issue was totally private and a personal choice when Nash KD, and James had to uncomfortably address the media.

I'm glad the team took a hardline stance on this. If KD and Harden were against it, there's no way the team makes this call. Let's get this over with ASAP. If he wants to stay, he can get vaccinated. If he wants to leave, he can do whatever. I'm fine with him sitting out the year or getting traded or retiring. I don't really care to hear about the reasons that he's anti-vax. Millions of people were vaccinated way before mandates were a thing so this just reeks of BS to me.

I fully supported Kyrie in his haitus last year so I'm not some hater. This is just 100% stupidity. The sad part is Kyrie has huge pull and power with the youth and young adults. Specifically in minority communities. And he's using that power to push stupidity, anti-science rhetoric, and to get props from clowns like Ted Cruz, Trump, etc.

What anti-science rhetoric is he pushing?

Anti-government? Anti-establishment... sure. Anti-science? last report says his stance is not anti-vax.

Also, I think you are making a big leap that KD/Harden have input or care about making the decision on Kyrie. Both said its his decision and they support him. KD said its not his place to talk to him or convince him on his choices. I think KD wants him here, but is letting Kyrie/The nets deal with it. if it came to trading or cutting kyrie, yeah they would have to go through KD. but for this? i doubt he cares or wants to be part of it.

Again, the stance kyrie is taking (especially if the atheltic report is true) is WHY KD is close to kyrie (Empowerment) not in spite of that

The latest rumor leads us to believe, he is not against the vaccine just championing the rights of those afraid to get the vaccine. So technically, he's not saying he is anti science if we believe this latest round yet, he is unvaccinated and validated those fears in the face of science. He claims he is standing up for his community. What is more likely...he leads his community to getting their jobs back because he remains unvaccinated, or they remain unemployed, unvaccinated, and death rates go up within the community he is claiming to support? Meanwhile, he is also failing to do his own job and letting down everyone he made a commitment to. So if its anti government or anti science what's the difference? The end result is a worse outcome for everyone, but hey its "the principle of the thing" right?

Kyrie, for over a year, has put out and liked many anti-vax statements. That is a fact. Now he claims that he is just anti-mandate.

My conclusion is that he is paving his way for a return. He is now in the same boat as Trump and the governors of Florida and Texas, who all are anti-mandate but vaccinated.

It's a ridiculous position, given that virtually every state has vaccine mandates for public schools for measles, chicken pox, polio, et al and no one has ever said a word about that being an attack on freedom.

But the good news is that Kyrie will be back shortly. His changing narrative is a sign of his imminent return.

[Prokorov]

Kyrie, for over a year, has put out and liked many anti-vax statements. That is a fact.

Can you please point to the "many" Anti-vax statements he has put out?

Google/Twitter/instagram dont turn up much

My conclusion is that he is paving his way for a return. He is now in the same boat as Trump and the governors of Florida and Texas, who all are anti-mandate but vaccinated.

Hopefully this is the case. It would not surprise me. I'm cautiously optomistic... But he could very well just be Anti-mandate and want to die on that Hill. Although, in the past his 'boycotts' had a pretty short expiration date.

It's a ridiculous position, given that virtually every state has vaccine mandates for public schools for measles, chicken pox, polio, et al and no one has ever said a word about that being an attack on freedom.

The Polio and smallpox mandates ended before Kyrie was born, in the 70's, so im not sure that applies to him. They also were mostly limited to schools and few other public places. And they didnt impose any of the financial penalties of the NYC mandate. While COVID is a pandemic, and serious, I think it is a really poor comparison to something like Polio or small pox. Small pox killed 1 in 3 people who were infected. It had the ability to wipe out entire populations.

The NYC mandate is far over reaching. I agree with the idea of the mandate, but no exemptions, wiping away tenures and pensions. There is no legal/constitutional basis for that... and it looks like both of those will be removed or edited.

But the good news is that Kyrie will be back shortly. His changing narrative is a sign of his imminent return.

your lips to gods ears.

[BigO]

Kyrie, for over a year, has put out and liked many anti-vax statements. That is a fact.

Can you please point to the "many" Anti-vax statements he has put out?

Google/Twitter/instagram dont turn up much

My conclusion is that he is paving his way for a return. He is now in the same boat as Trump and the governors of Florida and Texas, who all are anti-mandate but vaccinated.

Hopefully this is the case. It would not surprise me. I'm cautiously optomistic... But he could very well just be Anti-mandate and want to die on that Hill. Although, in the past his 'boycotts' had a pretty short expiration date.

It's a ridiculous position, given that virtually every state has vaccine mandates for public schools for measles, chicken pox, polio, et al and no one has ever said a word about that being an attack on freedom.

The Polio and smallpox mandates ended before Kyrie was born, in the 70's, so im not sure that applies to him. They also were mostly limited to schools and few other public places. And they didnt impose any of the financial penalties of the NYC mandate. While COVID is a pandemic, and serious, I think it is a really poor comparison to something like Polio or small pox. Small pox killed 1 in 3 people who were infected. It had the ability to wipe out entire populations.

The NYC mandate is far over reaching. I agree with the idea of the mandate, but no exemptions, wiping away tenures and pensions. There is no legal/constitutional basis for that... and it looks like both of those will be removed or edited.

But the good news is that Kyrie will be back shortly. His changing narrative is a sign of his imminent return.

your lips to gods ears.

"Irving, who serves as a vice president on the executive committee of the players’ union, recently started following and liking Instagram posts from a conspiracy theorist who claims that “secret societies” are implanting vaccines in a plot to connect Black people to a master computer for “a plan of Satan.” This Moderna microchip misinformation campaign has spread across multiple NBA locker rooms and group chats, according to several of the dozen-plus current players, Hall-of-Famers, league executives, arena workers and virologists interviewed for this story over the past week."

This is from Rolling Stone just two weeks ago. There are many more, but not worth the effort to cut and paste. His supposed "principles" are ever changing, which I suppose is a good thing.