Nets Going Forward: Planning for Next Season

[vincecarter4pres]

In order to get this team another big piece, we will have to trade all available assets. The guys that we watched grow up here will be sacrificed to make that happen

I get the undertones MDB, I do, I share some of them myself, but this team is going to be so fun to watch if we have something crazy like Kyrie/Beal/KD as a trio.

I'm fine with it as long as we start winning and playing championship level basketball.

Agreed and I'm a huge LeVert fan and Allen apologist, so that's saying something on my end lol.

[TheNetsFan]

I mean, when is the last time a star player, went for the money, so to speak?

Paul George? Westbrook?

Westbrook is a weird, mis-wired dude who cares more about personal accolades then team success and PG was injury riddled and still almost left for LAL and then forced his way to LAC the very next off-season, after forcing his way out of Indiana.

The other big dogs left and/or took short extensions so they could control their futures. LeBron, twice. KD, twice. AD. Kyrie. Butler. Beal took the money, but the ultra short extension. Lillard is like the only guy you can point to on this one.

Barnes, Batum, Kemba, Tobias Harris, DLo, McCollum, these are the kind of guys who take the money, because they have to, in varying degrees, for varying reasons and yet most of them still left as well.

You've named plenty of examples yourself. Beal, PG, Westbrook, Dame, Beal. There's also Harden, and you could consider John Wall as well (took the contract pre-injury).

-PG forced his way out like a year into the deal to go to LA. Thats not a great example.
-Harden already was on a contending team when he took the money
-Dame/Wall are good examples
-Beal passed on the longer deal to keep flexibility to leave.

-Kawhi took the money in LA after 2 chances for supermax in SA/TOR
-Kyrie passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Durant passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Lebron passed up supermax to go to LA
-Davis tried to force his way to LA, then passed up supermax to go to LA (although like beal took less year for flexibility)
-Butler passed up on supermax to go to Miami

Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Kyrie, & Butler were not Supermax eligible (Kawhi was with the Spurs before he was traded to Toronto). The only thing the gave up was 3% raise per year (8% vs 5%) and an extra year on the back end (which pre-COVID was meaningless for most, because they could reasonably expect a bigger year 5 raise in FA.

[vincecarter4pres]

You've named plenty of examples yourself. Beal, PG, Westbrook, Dame, Beal. There's also Harden, and you could consider John Wall as well (took the contract pre-injury).

-PG forced his way out like a year into the deal to go to LA. Thats not a great example.
-Harden already was on a contending team when he took the money
-Dame/Wall are good examples
-Beal passed on the longer deal to keep flexibility to leave.

-Kawhi took the money in LA after 2 chances for supermax in SA/TOR
-Kyrie passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Durant passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Lebron passed up supermax to go to LA
-Davis tried to force his way to LA, then passed up supermax to go to LA (although like beal took less year for flexibility)
-Butler passed up on supermax to go to Miami

Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Kyrie, & Butler were not Supermax eligible (Kawhi was with the Spurs before he was traded to Toronto). The only thing the gave up was 3% raise per year (8% vs 5%) and an extra year on the back end (which pre-COVID was meaningless for most, because they could reasonably expect a bigger year 5 raise in FA.

LeBron was supermax eligible in Cleveland.
Kawhi was supermax eligible in San An.
Kyrie was supermax eligible in Cleveland.



A simple Google search reveals this as absolute fact.


And extra years and raise percentages aren't more money all of a sudden?


I'm unsure what you guys are arguing against at this point. Just for the sake of out of boredom?


Butler was in Minnesota as well, but pretty sure that's why he forced his way out, cause he wanted the max 5 year he would be eligible for in the summer, but they weren't willing to offer it, instead a 4 year for about $70 million less before the summer. But then he also left the Sixers for a year and about $50 million less. That is a lot of money for a guy who certainly will not get another max deal, not even a 1 year extension 4 seasons from now, he's older and more injury prone then anyone on this list.

[DarkXaero]

He’s not the one that’s gonna get moved.

I’d like to get something like this done

Dinwiddie, Allen, Temple

For

Gobert

It’s a little short salary wise and one of Musa or Pinson would have to be added but that’s not a deal breaker for either side.

We would need to add alot more. 2 unprotected firsts at least

Honestly, really doubt this.

Yes, Gobert is a great player, especially at least on defense.

But what's the market for him, before this incident?

After, it's got to be worse.

He's not the type of total game changer you can build an entire squad around, in fact he's really only the 3rd piece type of player to at worst one superstar and one true star. Ironically that's our position right now though.

What teams need him so bad a bidding war starts? Especially that he has one huge contract year left, so a huge part of your cap in a season where the cap will likely temporarily tumble and then writing in stone you must full max him for him to stay the following year?

Is he better than Clint Capella? A tag team of an improving Jarrett Allen and DeAndre Jordan? DeAndre Ayton? Of course, but by how much to forego any future trade opportunity?

Is he a better fit for Giannis then BLo? The Lakers making a move for him with AD? Sixers with Embiid? Miami with Adebayo? Questionable.

What do these teams have left for assets to make a better offer then Dinwiddie, Allen and expiring salary filler? Especially when Dinwiddie and Allen actually make tremendous sense to Utah on the court, not just on paper value?

Maybe a protected first added or maybe they want LeVert in Dinwiddie's place though, or Musa or Rodi as a throw in.

There are literally only 4 or 5 teams who would want and chase Rudy Imho, who have something of a decent package for him:

Us
Boston
Chicago
Indiana
Portland

Would Portland give up McCollum?

Would Indiana give up Sabonis and a slew of picks, or Turner?

Would Chicago give up Lavine and picks? Would Utah want to pair him with Mitchell or can they find the proper value in a 3rd team?

Would Boston give up Brown and a picks?

Would Washington go all out giving up tons of unprotected picks, this pick and/or maybe Rui in a bid to keep Beal and simultaneously having to secure Gobert?

If you can't answer yes to most of the above, where is his market, value-wise?

Will he have value? Absolutely. But I don't see it being that high. I think they'll be more concerned with making a move which brings back a player(s) who makes Mitchell happy and fits their system, especially considering they probably won't get a top prospect or pick back for him as the centerpiece, which would mitigate some of the damage if Mitchell eventually asks out anyway.

I agree with the gist of this. Rudy Gobert being an expiring contract, and an unrestricted free agent at the end of it, takes a lot of leverage away from Utah. It also doesn't help them that Gobert's reputation as a person around the league has taken a big hit lately. I think us offering Allen + Dinwiddie or Levert makes a lot of sense for them. They get a direct replacement for Gobert in Allen, and they get a starting backcourt partner next to Mitchell. That being said, I don't know the chances of Gobert being traded now, apparently Gobert & Mitchell had a talk to patch up differences, so that might be the end of this.

[TheNetsFan]

-PG forced his way out like a year into the deal to go to LA. Thats not a great example.
-Harden already was on a contending team when he took the money
-Dame/Wall are good examples
-Beal passed on the longer deal to keep flexibility to leave.

-Kawhi took the money in LA after 2 chances for supermax in SA/TOR
-Kyrie passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Durant passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Lebron passed up supermax to go to LA
-Davis tried to force his way to LA, then passed up supermax to go to LA (although like beal took less year for flexibility)
-Butler passed up on supermax to go to Miami

Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Kyrie, & Butler were not Supermax eligible (Kawhi was with the Spurs before he was traded to Toronto). The only thing the gave up was 3% raise per year (8% vs 5%) and an extra year on the back end (which pre-COVID was meaningless for most, because they could reasonably expect a bigger year 5 raise in FA.

LeBron was supermax eligible in Cleveland.
Kawhi was supermax eligible in San An.
Kyrie was supermax eligible in Cleveland.



A simple Google search reveals this as absolute fact.


And extra years and raise percentages aren't more money all of a sudden?


I'm unsure what you guys are arguing against at this point. Just for the sake of out of boredom?


Butler was in Minnesota as well, but pretty sure that's why he forced his way out, cause he wanted the max 5 year he would be eligible for in the summer, but they weren't willing to offer it, instead a 4 year for about $70 million less before the summer. But then he also left the Sixers for a year and about $50 million less. That is a lot of money for a guy who certainly will not get another max deal, not even a 1 year extension 4 seasons from now, he's older and more injury prone then anyone on this list.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q24

The Supermax is also known as a designated veteran exception (there's also a designated rookie exception). It went into effect in the 2011 CBA. In order to qualify for the veteran's supermax, you needed to be:

7 or 8 years of service when extension signed; 1 or 2 years remaining on contract; with same team continuously (unless traded during first four years in the league); meets Designated Veteran Player 35% Max Criteria3

or

8 or 9 years of service; with same team continuously (unless traded during first four years in the league); meets Designated Veteran Player 35% Max Criteria

Lebron left Cleveland the first time before that rule was in effect. Once you switch team outside of a trade during your first 4 years in the league, you're no longer eligible.

Kyrie was traded in Year 6. Not eligible. If he never got traded, he may have been eligible for an extension a year later. Not eligible after being traded.

Kawhi was eligible before being traded from SAS, but rumor had it that the Spurs tried to convince him to take less. Not eligible after being traded.

KD was not eligible with GSW. Butler was not eligible with Philly.

[vincecarter4pres]

Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Kyrie, & Butler were not Supermax eligible (Kawhi was with the Spurs before he was traded to Toronto). The only thing the gave up was 3% raise per year (8% vs 5%) and an extra year on the back end (which pre-COVID was meaningless for most, because they could reasonably expect a bigger year 5 raise in FA.

LeBron was supermax eligible in Cleveland.
Kawhi was supermax eligible in San An.
Kyrie was supermax eligible in Cleveland.



A simple Google search reveals this as absolute fact.


And extra years and raise percentages aren't more money all of a sudden?


I'm unsure what you guys are arguing against at this point. Just for the sake of out of boredom?


Butler was in Minnesota as well, but pretty sure that's why he forced his way out, cause he wanted the max 5 year he would be eligible for in the summer, but they weren't willing to offer it, instead a 4 year for about $70 million less before the summer. But then he also left the Sixers for a year and about $50 million less. That is a lot of money for a guy who certainly will not get another max deal, not even a 1 year extension 4 seasons from now, he's older and more injury prone then anyone on this list.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q24

The Supermax is also known as a designated veteran exception (there's also a designated rookie exception). It went into effect in the 2011 CBA. In order to qualify for the veteran's supermax, you needed to be:

7 or 8 years of service when extension signed; 1 or 2 years remaining on contract; with same team continuously (unless traded during first four years in the league); meets Designated Veteran Player 35% Max Criteria3

or

8 or 9 years of service; with same team continuously (unless traded during first four years in the league); meets Designated Veteran Player 35% Max Criteria

Lebron left Cleveland the first time before that rule was in effect. Once you switch team outside of a trade during your first 4 years in the league, you're no longer eligible.

Kyrie was traded in Year 6. Not eligible. If he never got traded, he may have been eligible for an extension a year later. Not eligible after being traded.

Kawhi was eligible before being traded from SAS, but rumor had it that the Spurs tried to convince him to take less. Not eligible after being traded.

KD was not eligible with GSW. Butler was not eligible with Philly.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2723050-kyrie-irving-would-forfeit-200m-supermax-contract-if-traded-by-cavaliers

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/06/lebron-james-has-53-million-reasons-to-stay-in-cleveland

https://clutchpoints.com/warriors-rumors-dubs-set-to-offer-supermax-to-kevin-durant-this-weekend/

KD was eligible with OKC if he had stayed in the first place as well, a year or so down the line.


You guys are just arguing semantics now on top of arguing against reported fact.

The bottom line is, you guys are arguing stars chase the money(through actual NBA basketball contracts), yet time and time again, probably 80% of them and 90% of superstars go where they want, a big market, well run team, to team up with other stars, with better off court revenue streams.

All these guys have forced trades or left their team for a team, then left again, knowing damn well they're be absolutely no way for them to ever get a supermax, at any point in the future, ever really.

There's just no arguing this, it's fact, not opinion.

You guys are actually proving our argument for us on the flip side of the coin.

[TheNetsFan]

LeBron was supermax eligible in Cleveland.
Kawhi was supermax eligible in San An.
Kyrie was supermax eligible in Cleveland.



A simple Google search reveals this as absolute fact.


And extra years and raise percentages aren't more money all of a sudden?


I'm unsure what you guys are arguing against at this point. Just for the sake of out of boredom?


Butler was in Minnesota as well, but pretty sure that's why he forced his way out, cause he wanted the max 5 year he would be eligible for in the summer, but they weren't willing to offer it, instead a 4 year for about $70 million less before the summer. But then he also left the Sixers for a year and about $50 million less. That is a lot of money for a guy who certainly will not get another max deal, not even a 1 year extension 4 seasons from now, he's older and more injury prone then anyone on this list.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q24

The Supermax is also known as a designated veteran exception (there's also a designated rookie exception). It went into effect in the 2011 CBA. In order to qualify for the veteran's supermax, you needed to be:

7 or 8 years of service when extension signed; 1 or 2 years remaining on contract; with same team continuously (unless traded during first four years in the league); meets Designated Veteran Player 35% Max Criteria3

or

8 or 9 years of service; with same team continuously (unless traded during first four years in the league); meets Designated Veteran Player 35% Max Criteria

Lebron left Cleveland the first time before that rule was in effect. Once you switch team outside of a trade during your first 4 years in the league, you're no longer eligible.

Kyrie was traded in Year 6. Not eligible. If he never got traded, he may have been eligible for an extension a year later. Not eligible after being traded.

Kawhi was eligible before being traded from SAS, but rumor had it that the Spurs tried to convince him to take less. Not eligible after being traded.

KD was not eligible with GSW. Butler was not eligible with Philly.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2723050-kyrie-irving-would-forfeit-200m-supermax-contract-if-traded-by-cavaliers

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/06/lebron-james-has-53-million-reasons-to-stay-in-cleveland

https://clutchpoints.com/warriors-rumors-dubs-set-to-offer-supermax-to-kevin-durant-this-weekend/

KD was eligible with OKC if he had stayed in the first place as well, a year or so down the line.


You guys are just arguing semantics now on top of arguing against reported fact.

The bottom line is, you guys are arguing stars chase the money(through actual NBA basketball contracts), yet time and time again, probably 80% of them and 90% of superstars go where they want, a big market, well run team, to team up with other stars, with better off court revenue streams.

All these guys have forced trades or left their team for a team, then left again, knowing damn well they're be absolutely no way for them to ever get a supermax, at any point in the future, ever really.

There's just no arguing this, it's fact, not opinion.

You guys are actually proving our argument for us on the flip side of the coin.

The BR article is accurate. Kyrie lost his ability to get a Supermax when he was traded, but he would have needed to make an All-NBA team in 2017-2018 with Cleveland to qualify. Note that he was nursing an injury that necessitated surgery, and only wound up playing 60 games in 2017-2018, so it's unlikely we would have been voted All-NBA.

USA Today article says Lebron left guaranteed money on the table, but that's not due to qualifying for a supermax. That's a function of getting 8% vs 5% raises and the ability to get a 5th year via Bird rights. That is not a supermax.

KD was in the same situation. He left money on the table as a bird rights FA. That was not a Supermax, despite what clutchpoints (who?) states.

[Prokorov]

You've named plenty of examples yourself. Beal, PG, Westbrook, Dame, Beal. There's also Harden, and you could consider John Wall as well (took the contract pre-injury).

-PG forced his way out like a year into the deal to go to LA. Thats not a great example.
-Harden already was on a contending team when he took the money
-Dame/Wall are good examples
-Beal passed on the longer deal to keep flexibility to leave.

-Kawhi took the money in LA after 2 chances for supermax in SA/TOR
-Kyrie passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Durant passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Lebron passed up supermax to go to LA
-Davis tried to force his way to LA, then passed up supermax to go to LA (although like beal took less year for flexibility)
-Butler passed up on supermax to go to Miami

Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Kyrie, & Butler were not Supermax eligible (Kawhi was with the Spurs before he was traded to Toronto). The only thing the gave up was 3% raise per year (8% vs 5%) and an extra year on the back end (which pre-COVID was meaningless for most, because they could reasonably expect a bigger year 5 raise in FA.

supermax or not, they gave up 3% and a year....

if you are saying thats minor or irrelevant as 4 years may be more desirable for young or inprime players that actually makes the case worse for teams retaining guys when in small markets.

Giannis would qualify for a supermax, but i just cant imagine that would be even remotely close to enough. he would probably make more bottom line dollars as an athelete/brand with contract + endorsements + business ventures being in NY or LA.

He would probably need 8-10X more money to stay in milwaukee and even then i think it would be a coin flip. maybe something like ownership stake could help.

it just makes no sense to stay in milwaulee for him. it would be one of the more shocking turn of events unless it was one of those sign a supermax then demand out a year later type moves

[TheNetsFan]

-PG forced his way out like a year into the deal to go to LA. Thats not a great example.
-Harden already was on a contending team when he took the money
-Dame/Wall are good examples
-Beal passed on the longer deal to keep flexibility to leave.

-Kawhi took the money in LA after 2 chances for supermax in SA/TOR
-Kyrie passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Durant passed up supermax to go to the nets
-Lebron passed up supermax to go to LA
-Davis tried to force his way to LA, then passed up supermax to go to LA (although like beal took less year for flexibility)
-Butler passed up on supermax to go to Miami

Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Kyrie, & Butler were not Supermax eligible (Kawhi was with the Spurs before he was traded to Toronto). The only thing the gave up was 3% raise per year (8% vs 5%) and an extra year on the back end (which pre-COVID was meaningless for most, because they could reasonably expect a bigger year 5 raise in FA.

supermax or not, they gave up 3% and a year....

if you are saying thats minor or irrelevant as 4 years may be more desirable for young or inprime players that actually makes the case worse for teams retaining guys when in small markets.

Giannis would qualify for a supermax, but i just cant imagine that would be even remotely close to enough. he would probably make more bottom line dollars as an athelete/brand with contract + endorsements + business ventures being in NY or LA.

He would probably need 8-10X more money to stay in milwaukee and even then i think it would be a coin flip. maybe something like ownership stake could help.

it just makes no sense to stay in milwaulee for him. it would be one of the more shocking turn of events unless it was one of those sign a supermax then demand out a year later type moves

The Supermax starts a player on a different tier. For example, with another team, Giannis will be eligible for 5% raises over years 2-4 of a 4 year deal starting at 30% of the cap. On a Bucks Supermax, he'd be eligible for 8% raises over years 2-5 of a 5 year deal starting at 35% of the cap.

What does that translate to? 2.03 x the first year cap on a supermax versus 1.29 x the first year cap on a different team's max. Based on the original $115mil cap projection, that would be $233.45mil vs $148.35mil/4years.

Depending on what happens to revenue & the cap, those numbers could drop significantly. If they do, players may gamble on short deals hoping that 2021 or 2022 FA will be much more lucrative.

[Stone]

I'd like to shift gears here for a minute......and get our boards thoughts on our head coach vacancy.

Will Jacque Vaughn be our head coach next season?

[TheNetsFan]

I'd like to shift gears here for a minute......and get our boards thoughts on our head coach vacancy.

Will Jacque Vaughn be our head coach next season?

I don't think Vaughn will be the head coach. I think it will be somebody Team USA involved or adjacent (previously or currently).

I feel good for Kenny, because he may be making a lot more having been fired right before the play stoppage.

[DarkXaero]

I'd like to shift gears here for a minute......and get our boards thoughts on our head coach vacancy.

Will Jacque Vaughn be our head coach next season?

If the season gets canceled, then there's a solid chance that we might just roll with Vaughn.

[Prokorov]

I'd like to shift gears here for a minute......and get our boards thoughts on our head coach vacancy.

Will Jacque Vaughn be our head coach next season?

i cant see it. id think KD/Kyrie will bring in their guy. the next coach wont be a coach, but a manager. someone who gets KD/Kyrie what they need and stays out of the way. Tyronne lue type

[Stone]

I'd like to shift gears here for a minute......and get our boards thoughts on our head coach vacancy.

Will Jacque Vaughn be our head coach next season?

i cant see it. id think KD/Kyrie will bring in their guy. the next coach wont be a coach, but a manager. someone who gets KD/Kyrie what they need and stays out of the way. Tyronne lue type

I don't disagree, but I don't see why Jacque can't be that guy. I remember him saying something like "You have to listen to your top 4 guys". I think that not listening to the players is where Kenny might have lost the team. I'm not saying I blame Kenny, if I was a coach I would want to make the decisions also.

Now if you compare that to Jacque....I look back on I think it was that first game that Jacque took over and it looked like a free for all. At one point it also looked like Garrett Temple was calling the plays.

I personally wouldn't mind giving Jacque a shot. I also think the odds are in his favor.

Also have to admit, I'm still salty over losing Kenny.

[MrDollarBills]

I'd like to shift gears here for a minute......and get our boards thoughts on our head coach vacancy.

Will Jacque Vaughn be our head coach next season?

Nope. Kyrie/KD/DJ probably have a guy in mind.

[Trader_Joe]

My guess is Lue.

Warming up to getting Love.

Prince and Caris + ?

Roll with..

Kyrie l Dinwiddie l Chiozza
Harris l Temple l Musa
KD l TLC
Love l KD l Kurucs
Jordan l Allen l Claxton

[Papi_swav]

My guess is Lue.

Warming up to getting Love.

Prince and Caris + ?

Roll with..

Kyrie l Dinwiddie l Chiozza
Harris l Temple l Musa
KD l TLC
Love l KD l Kurucs
Jordan l Allen l Claxton

Hell no ! Love makes zero sense for us. Injured and cost a lot and has regressed, can't play defense, not really a 4 anymore in todays game he's more of a center which will make him undersized. I believe KD is the 4 here. We need to get a wing.

[MrDollarBills]

My guess is Lue.

Warming up to getting Love.

Prince and Caris + ?

Roll with..

Kyrie l Dinwiddie l Chiozza
Harris l Temple l Musa
KD l TLC
Love l KD l Kurucs
Jordan l Allen l Claxton

Hell no ! Love makes zero sense for us. Injured and cost a lot and has regressed, can't play defense, not really a 4 anymore in todays game he's more of a center which will make him undersized. I believe KD is the 4 here. We need to get a wing.

It depends on the system that will be run here. We don't know how they will slot KD next season.

[vincecarter4pres]

Love is a bench player if he's not a center on most teams, though I would say if they managed to pull off a trade for Gobert you could probably run a big lineup something along the lines of:

Kyrie
Someone who can shoot and defend
KD
Love
Gobert

...and do some damage.

[Trader_Joe]

My guess is Lue.

Warming up to getting Love.

Prince and Caris + ?

Roll with..

Kyrie l Dinwiddie l Chiozza
Harris l Temple l Musa
KD l TLC
Love l KD l Kurucs
Jordan l Allen l Claxton

Hell no ! Love makes zero sense for us. Injured and cost a lot and has regressed, can't play defense, not really a 4 anymore in todays game he's more of a center which will make him undersized. I believe KD is the 4 here. We need to get a wing.

It depends on the system that will be run here. We don't know how they will slot KD next season.

Yeah, I'd also be cool with Love as a 6th man too and move Allen for a SF

Irving / Dinwiddie
Harris
SF
KD / Love
Jordan / Love