Random Thoughts Thread

[mikhailjordan]

I don't know man I don't mean to imply that Lebron is selfish (though he is an arrogant prick) but my big problem with him right now is that he relegates every member of his supporting cast into jump shooters...

Now to be fair Kobe went through a period where he did the same thing, as did Jordan, so I mean there's still hope for Lebron but it's not a forgone conclusion that he's ever going to get that sometimes doing less is more.

[enetric]

I honestly don't think Lebron's feel for that game is all it's chalked up to be. From a passing standpoint it certainly is but he's still a major ball-stopper who refuses to move without the ball or work in the low post.

Lebron needs to be more willing to make passes that don't lead to assists.

Better to be Kobe who forces shots with his teammates open? I dont know...i find Lebron doe s agreat job finding the open man. For a guy capable of taking over games...its what seperates the best of the best for me. All these gfuys can score. Most know how and when to pass. he is the one guy that seems to make good choices on the floor time after time.

I dont see that with Kobe. its like...he decides...OK I am taking over...doesnt matter if I have the best shot...I will dribble all day until i get it. OK...time for me to NOT shoot...i am going to create ONLY. OK...time for me ot play some D...I have taken the last 15 miutes off...let me get into the passing lane.

He can do it all. But its like he has to decide which version of him he is going to be. Lebron just does it. Each play...with instinct. And he makes a crap team in a 60 game winner as a result. Take him off the cavs in a weaker east...and they struggle to go .500. Take Kobe off LA and in the more impressive West...they still win 50 and can match up with any team in the conference.

[enetric]

I don't know man I don't mean to imply that Lebron is selfish (though he is an arrogant prick) but my big problem with him right now is that he relegates every member of his supporting cast into jump shooters...

Now to be fair Kobe went through a period where he did the same thing, as did Jordan, so I mean there's still hope for Lebron but it's not a forgone conclusion that he's ever going to get that sometimes doing less is more.

Dont know how yoy can even say that. Who on that team is more than that? He has Varejao who he hits regulary going to the hoop and the guy has bricks at the end of his wrists. Seriously cant catch the damn ball. Z was always a mid range guy. Mo is all about the 3...that is his role.

Shaq was supposed to give him the interior option and the pick and role... but this isnt the same shaq so you dont get as much as you once would have.

I find that lebron makes the right play. I found that year one from him. Still looking for that from Kobe on a regular basis. he put on a clinic with wow shots game 5...and yea I was impressed and it was fun to watch. But did you see some of the shots he shouldnt have taken? The times he had open teammates for wasy looks? Times he just said screw the triangle? No passing motion just Kobe against the world? His team wasnt playing great...but you get your big man 12 touches all game...and as the creator as you take 27 shots and lose...some of that is on you too. That's the thing about Kobe that has always irked me even as Mark Jackson and Van Goofus suck on his ass.


Bad choices.


I thought Kobe was better tonight than game 5. wa more impressed with how he played and the result was clearly there. Got his guys in the mix early. That is good baskeball. Set up the game over 48 minutes.

If Lebron gets some real talent to play with...and gets on a younger more up tempo team...I think you are going to see something special.

FYI- I do think Kobe is an all time great. Its just that he is not Jordan great. he isnt Magic, Bird or about 5 all time big men on my list including the guy who was the star of the team that he won his first 3 rings with. But after that? He is absolutely an all time great. if I didnt have to listen to the over hype all the time i dont think he would irk me nearly as much as he does.

[enetric]

I agree with LBJ having better smarts and feel for the game than Kobe. But pure talent wise? I still give it to Kobe. But then again, Kobe has had more years than Lebron. Once Lebron's fundamentals catches up to his physical and mental capacity of the game, sky's the limit.

I think he surpassed Kobe years ago as the overall player. Al that is left is legacy building....which means winning titles. And lets face it...Kobe was the #2 next to Shaq....and without the absurd Gasol trade...we all saw what the Lakers were under Kobe. Still a stacked roster....but missed playoffs, and two first round exits. Kobe's legend grows as the best player on a winning team. Sometimes that skews the debate because it doesnt look at all the facts.

[SpeedyG]

I agree with LBJ having better smarts and feel for the game than Kobe. But pure talent wise? I still give it to Kobe. But then again, Kobe has had more years than Lebron. Once Lebron's fundamentals catches up to his physical and mental capacity of the game, sky's the limit.

I think he surpassed Kobe years ago as the overall player. Al that is left is legacy building....which means winning titles. And lets face it...Kobe was the #2 next to Shaq....and without the absurd Gasol trade...we all saw what the Lakers were under Kobe. Still a stacked roster....but missed playoffs, and two first round exits. Kobe's legend grows as the best player on a winning team. Sometimes that skews the debate because it doesnt look at all the facts.

I still give Kobe the edge in shooting, and killer instinct. Hate "killer instinct" or not, selfish or not, a player (no matter how great he is) needs to know when to be passive and when to take over.

I think we had similar debate with KG in his prime. Talented like heck, but can be so passive and so unselfish that he'd sit back and let his lesser talented teammates do the heavy lifting instead of saying "screw this, I'm taking over. I'm taller, longer, and more athletic than any of the bigs you have. I can get what I want, when I want, how I want..."

I think Lebron needs to develop more of that. When you're the star, you need to be a little selfish sometimes, especially when you can be the most dominant force in the game.

[mikhailjordan]

1. You can run an actual offense with Kobe Bryant on your team Lebron hasn't developed to the point where you can do the same with him.

2. Lebron's supporting cast is criminally underrated. He's playing with a group of guys who come to play every day and play some of the best defense in the league. As the Celtics have proven if you play defense at a very high level and put forth the effort you can be a championship contender... The problem is that offensively Mike Brown was an idiot and as I previously mentioned Lebron underutilized the talent he does have on his roster by relegating players into nothing more than spot-up shooters. If Lebron played next to Pau Gasol you could say bye-bye to Pau in the post...

3.

we all saw what the Lakers were under Kobe. Still a stacked roster....but missed playoffs, and two first round exits. Kobe's

A stacked roster? Typo? Those rosters Kobe was on were downright terrible...

The 2004-2005 roster for example (the year the Lakers missed the playoffs because Kobe was limited to 66 games (knee surgery)) saw the Lakers START and PLAY CHUCKY ATKINS 35 mpg.

Futhermore the center duo consisted strictly of Chris Mihm and Brian Grant... Other members of that team who were counted on to produce (and got their minutes) were an Tierre Brown, Brian Cook, and Jumaine Jones...

In 2005-2006 things didn't get much better but a healthy Kobe Bryant led the Lakers to a 45 win season and the playoffs... Some roster "notables" receiving about 20 mpg or more were: Sasha Vujacic, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, Smush Parker...

It also needs to be noted that though the Lakers lost in the first round with that "stacked" roster, they did so in 7 games against a Phoenix Suns team that had the 5th best record in the league and went on to go all the way to the Western Conference Finals.

2006-2007 is basically rinse and repeat...

So in summary not even the biggest Kobe hater can call those rosters stacked.

---

Lastly in regards to hype at no point in his career has Kobe's hype rivaled Lebron's, now given how hyped up Kobe is that's more a testament to the absurd nut-hangerness that people have for The Queen.

---

Okay this is "lastly" for real... The Pau Gasol isn't as one-sided everyone makes it out to be, Marc Gasol is a stud. Would it have been more intelligent for the Grizzlies to keep a relatively young big man like Pau even though he could never lead them too a single playoff victory?

Yeah it would have... From a basketball standpoint, but that team was hard-pressed for cash and did what they had to do.

It's not like better packages were thrown out there anyway. I mean look at how all of those "awesome" young prospects Boston threw to the Wolves panned out...

As much as I like Al Jefferson is he really that much better than Marc Gasol?

[vincecarter4pres]

Funny yet disturbing at the same time...

[enetric]

Too long to quote all of that...my keyboard just bounces when I type...anyone know why it does that?


I love how you left out that the Lakers who were in the NBA finals traded Shaq for Odom, Caron Butler and Brian Grant!!!!!!


And looking back at how Marc Gasol worked out as a solid guy this past season to justify that trade????? Come on now. You are being beyond a Laker homer.

Teams dont trade franchise players withn conference for a late first and a second round pick without shgopping him around the league. An older KG got Aleff and seveal other goodies and it got him out of conference, and yeah AlJeff healthy is a go to guy who was a stud prospect at the time. Brook Lopez level prospect when he was dealt. They didnt even make calls. That trade has been called a joke by every GM in the NBA regardless of whther or not Marc Gasol has become a solid role guy after a few years. Crittendon and Kwame were the other pieces!

And considering neither of the two prospects were the Lakers top big man prospect at the time (Bynum) or PG prospect (Farmar) and you just told us hoe much the Lakers roster sucked the year before...how do you then defend the trade of a perennial all star franchise guy who was acquired for not one of the Lakers top 8 rotation players?????

Come on now.

[enetric]

I am also baffled at how little you see what Lebron does for his teammates on the floot. How unselfish a player he is. Mo Williams is your number two on a 66 win team???????? And Delonte West is one of your go to guys? THis a guy that hade a broken down Ben Wallace or Wally as a core player!!!

Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Artest....before we even get a several quality role guys who are comparable with key rotation Cavs of the last two years.

I have heard Laker homer defensese before...but this might be the worst one ever. Mo Williams was the back up PG for the Bucks who couldnt run an offense but had a nice little shot. He turned that guy into an all star with all the easy looks and good passes he gave him.

He makes others better. He would get more out of Pau...not less.

[mikhailjordan]

So it was entirely Kobe's fault that the Lakers blew up their "championship" caliber team?

Shaq didn't want out (as is the case everywhere he goes)?

The Lakers were going to pay Shaq an enormous salary that they would regret a year later?

Come on...

As for the Pau Gasol trade... You're only looking at things from a basketball standpoint when the thing is 9 out of 10 times financial decisions hold more weight than basketball ones amongst professional sports teams.

Now don't get me wrong, I would never have pulled the trigger on that deal if I were the Grizzlies GM but what I was pointing out was that people love to talk about how the Grizzlies got "nothing" in return for Pau Gasol when in actuality - even if we ignore the financial benefits of that move - Marc Gasol is a top 10 center in the league.

One of my pet peeves is when people tell one side of a story but not the other.

I'll make another post later about the "great" Lebronze and the misconceptions surrounding Mo Williams... But do note I'm not calling him selfish I'm just pointing out that he has sticky fingers and like other great wings is still going through this period where he hasn't learned how to let the game come to him.

[vincecarter4pres]

Too long to quote all of that...my keyboard just bounces when I type...anyone know why it does that?

Please post your problem here(that goes for anyone experiencing it)...

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1000633

Notice the last two posts on the first page.

It's hard enough to get the Admins to fix bugs on this site, so if a number of us keep reporting the same problem, they will eventually have to take notice and work on fixing it.

That **** is beyond annoying when you're writing a long response, or when quoting multiple posts in one reply, etc.

It'll only take literally a minute of your time and it might help in correcting the problem...

[vincecarter4pres]

Anyone see that dumb chick in Seattle getting her meat lumped by some cop?

[enetric]

So it was entirely Kobe's fault that the Lakers blew up their "championship" caliber team?

Shaq didn't want out (as is the case everywhere he goes)?

The Lakers were going to pay Shaq an enormous salary that they would regret a year later?

Come on...

As for the Pau Gasol trade... You're only looking at things from a basketball standpoint when the thing is 9 out of 10 times financial decisions hold more weight than basketball ones amongst professional sports teams.

Now don't get me wrong, I would never have pulled the trigger on that deal if I were the Grizzlies GM but what I was pointing out was that people love to talk about how the Grizzlies got "nothing" in return for Pau Gasol when in actuality - even if we ignore the financial benefits of that move - Marc Gasol is a top 10 center in the league.

One of my pet peeves is when people tell one side of a story but not the other.

I'll make another post later about the "great" Lebronze and the misconceptions surrounding Mo Williams... But do note I'm not calling him selfish I'm just pointing out that he has sticky fingers and like other great wings is still going through this period where he hasn't learned how to let the game come to him.

Wow. You just say a thing..gets proven wrong...so you say half of another thing...more Kobe lovin...I mean come on now. DSont say telling one half of the story is your pet peeve you have been doing it all over the place to support Kobe lovin.

The point of the trade was to point out that you mentioned all these lesser players on that team that Kobe couldnt get to the playoffs and ignored all the good players he had! You know as it was finally his team after he completely sucked it in the Detroit finals loss. You know as Shaq shot over 60% on about hafl the fga's and Kobe shot under 40% on jump shots. He was awful in that series...did what he want...and basically Shaq and Phil wanted out. So? As the younger guy with nore good years left he got it. Shaq got dealt for a very good package of talent. Two all star caliber suppo9rt players and a very good role playing rebounder. The Heat who didnt have much beyond those guys and Wade...really gave up a ton to get Shaqw so you can tsay that Kobe didnt have talent around him. And btw...year one he fails to shoot 40% from the field without Shaq and Phil so what blame do you lay on him.

And Shaq? Contract? Yes getting older....but you really dont remember do you. He was runner up in the MVP that next year...should have won. Then won a title the following year. Took less shots...it became DWade's team...but so what? Kobe was his #2 for 3 years of titles and yet fans like you use those titles to compile a record of historic greatness. Shaq shot over 60% for the season BOTh of thsoe years with the Heat and btw...he got a contract extension after that...so you arent really telling it accurately. His down years cam on the next contract.

As for Pau...no financial argument in the world can justify that trade and had it not been made that lopsided we arent having the Kobe is god legacy conversation. You know the Kobe that had a nutty on candid camera on the organization that stood behind him post Denver rape, moving Shaq and letting Phil walk...and had to fly him to Italy to meet with Buss to talk him off the ledge as he was demanding trades after he couldnt lead his team anywhere for three years. The team he demanded be his.

Had the Grizz shopped Pau...they get picks, prospects cap relief...far exceeding that deal. And you cannot look at hey...Marc turned out pretty good to justify it. The point is.....BYNUM AND FARMAR were the top Laker prospects and they got an all star young big man for two prospects who were non issues. it was a GIFT. You dfont get to play it wasnt really lopsided becauise Marc turned out to be a solid role guy!!!! The Lakers were close to dealing Bynum for an older Kidd with less trade value. Thsat btw thwas the beef Kobe had when they didnt do it. And Pau magically comes to them without giving up jack???? Even if Marc was actually playing here...and was proven...it was still a bad trade. But the fact that he was a mid second round pick...a nothing afterthought guy....who happend to become a needle in the haystack later...changes NOTHING in the point of the story.

[mikhailjordan]

- I haven't been proven wrong but ironically enough you are wrong in that you continue to argue that the Grizzlies never shopped Pau around when all reports at the time indicated otherwise...

- Caron Butler wasn't close to an all-star his one year in LA... Lamar Odom has never been an all-star level support player but if what you were trying to say is that he's always been a high level support player I agree... Did you actually try and defend Brian Grant? He was DONE when he got sent to LA. You can't spin it any other way... Those were terrible supporting casts.

- Don't forget that Kobe was playing in a STACKED western conference those years while the Wade-Shaq duo marched through a weak east...

- Shaq took more shots his first year in Miami than he did his last year in LA.

- Kobe shot 43% his first year without Shaq and Phil. Not below 40%...

- The Lakers didn't have hindsight when negotiating with Shaq they had no clue whether Shaq would begin to drop off with his new contract or the one after it...

- Your problem enetric is that you see everything with Kobe as black or white when in actuality there are numerous shades of gray. It's obvious you hate the guy but he's not the devil nor should he be denied credit when credit is due.

[enetric]

First off...what reports???? Grizz absolutely admitted they didnt shop him. Just read text the other day on how ownership first made light of it...then said they should have shopped him...then said it was all the Gm's fault later. The story was bizarre and changed constantly.

Popovich was so nuts about the trade he made a comment about the NBA having a committe to approve trades for their merit not just salary matching...like a fantasy league. It was a funny article.

The trade was a joke. Funny how those bizarre things always happen for the Lakers.

Sorry...the under 40% comment was his playoff shooting % against Detroit. What I meant to say was career worst FG% when he got to be the go to guy without the cover of Shaq.

I didnt forget what the league was. But the Lakers were the defending Western confernce champs. Odom, Butler and Grant and you cant get into a first round? I mean with all the ass sucking we give Kobe in the world...can you simply say it? That was a better supporting cast than lebron has had EVER.

Butler not being ready? he was already a quality player in Miami. Kobe didnt make other better...and that is something he desrves a rap for. Iverson...another guy guilty of that.

Shaq got the new contract upon LEAVING LA. And this wasnt about contract. it was Kobe. After that last season together...the way he said screw the triangle....screw Phil, screw Shaq...the handwriting was on the wall. Everyone knew it. Kobe won the battle at the expense of a dynasty. Are you under the impression the Lakers had Kobe played within the system they wouldnt have been 4 time champs together? That they wouldnt have been good enough to win at least two more after that?

Dont forget Shaq gets Miami to the conference finals in year one with a weak Heat team....and wins a title the year after that.

If you know hey two more titles...and then decline begins for your best player...you can live with it for a guy who anchors 6 titles and is the best player drafted to this league since Jordan. It wasnt cash. It wasnt contract. it was that team couldnt coexist. Kobe was above the team. Above the winning.

As for Kobe...black and white...I see it in terms of hoops. A great player who his supporters need desperately to make qualified arguments to support what level of greatness. You cant say he is top 20 all time. Or top10. You have to compare hinm to Jordan even if Magic, Bird and handful of all time legendary bigs including the guy who was the best player on 3 of Kobe's title teams are in fact better all time players.

Not good enough. There is an obsession with ramming all things Kobe down the throats of fans with qualified half assed legacy angles.

Total titles...who cares how many he was the best player for. Who cares that Gasol was a complte game changer for his legacy in the next run.

But why I think we are having this back and forth? Honestly? The rips you have for lebron in areas of their game where Lebron is clearly the MUCH better guy? Want to argue ft shooting? Or, 2 minutes on the clock where lebron is great but Kobe is great? Fine.

But if you have to suck his ass in compariong running a team...play making making others better????? Hands down Lebron. Most BS soft calls in the game? Absolutely Kobe.

Most absurd all D selection in history???? KOBE!!!!!! The guy rarely plays any D. And rarely guards the other teams best player.


Kobe is great. But the o bsessive need to compare him to Jordan who was far and away better in a tougher league on both sides of the ball...is why these debates go on and on. That...and of course the Pau driven Kobe legacy.

No way we have these Jordan issues in our face if the Pau gift never happens.

[jerseyjac]

Too long to quote all of that...my keyboard just bounces when I type...anyone know why it does that?

I love how you left out that the Lakers who were in the NBA finals traded Shaq for Odom, Caron Butler and Brian Grant!!!!!!


And looking back at how Marc Gasol worked out as a solid guy this past season to justify that trade????? Come on now. You are being beyond a Laker homer.

Teams dont trade franchise players withn conference for a late first and a second round pick without shgopping him around the league. An older KG got Aleff and seveal other goodies and it got him out of conference, and yeah AlJeff healthy is a go to guy who was a stud prospect at the time. Brook Lopez level prospect when he was dealt. They didnt even make calls. That trade has been called a joke by every GM in the NBA regardless of whther or not Marc Gasol has become a solid role guy after a few years. Crittendon and Kwame were the other pieces!

And considering neither of the two prospects were the Lakers top big man prospect at the time (Bynum) or PG prospect (Farmar) and you just told us hoe much the Lakers roster sucked the year before...how do you then defend the trade of a perennial all star franchise guy who was acquired for not one of the Lakers top 8 rotation players?????

Come on now.

I've asked realgm about this...its happens to me ALL THE TIME on realgm regardless of what computer or laptop I'm using...everytime I log on, if its doing that, I dont post and it happens a lot...

[jerseyjac]

First off...what reports???? Grizz absolutely admitted they didnt shop him. Just read text the other day on how ownership first made light of it...then said they should have shopped him...then said it was all the Gm's fault later. The story was bizarre and changed constantly.

Popovich was so nuts about the trade he made a comment about the NBA having a committe to approve trades for their merit not just salary matching...like a fantasy league. It was a funny article.

The trade was a joke. Funny how those bizarre things always happen for the Lakers.

Sorry...the under 40% comment was his playoff shooting % against Detroit. What I meant to say was career worst FG% when he got to be the go to guy without the cover of Shaq.

I didnt forget what the league was. But the Lakers were the defending Western confernce champs. Odom, Butler and Grant and you cant get into a first round? I mean with all the ass sucking we give Kobe in the world...can you simply say it? That was a better supporting cast than lebron has had EVER.

Butler not being ready? he was already a quality player in Miami. Kobe didnt make other better...and that is something he desrves a rap for. Iverson...another guy guilty of that.

Shaq got the new contract upon LEAVING LA. And this wasnt about contract. it was Kobe. After that last season together...the way he said screw the triangle....screw Phil, screw Shaq...the handwriting was on the wall. Everyone knew it. Kobe won the battle at the expense of a dynasty. Are you under the impression the Lakers had Kobe played within the system they wouldnt have been 4 time champs together? That they wouldnt have been good enough to win at least two more after that?

Dont forget Shaq gets Miami to the conference finals in year one with a weak Heat team....and wins a title the year after that.

If you know hey two more titles...and then decline begins for your best player...you can live with it for a guy who anchors 6 titles and is the best player drafted to this league since Jordan. It wasnt cash. It wasnt contract. it was that team couldnt coexist. Kobe was above the team. Above the winning.

As for Kobe...black and white...I see it in terms of hoops. A great player who his supporters need desperately to make qualified arguments to support what level of greatness. You cant say he is top 20 all time. Or top10. You have to compare hinm to Jordan even if Magic, Bird and handful of all time legendary bigs including the guy who was the best player on 3 of Kobe's title teams are in fact better all time players.

Not good enough. There is an obsession with ramming all things Kobe down the throats of fans with qualified half assed legacy angles.

Total titles...who cares how many he was the best player for. Who cares that Gasol was a complte game changer for his legacy in the next run.

But why I think we are having this back and forth? Honestly? The rips you have for lebron in areas of their game where Lebron is clearly the MUCH better guy? Want to argue ft shooting? Or, 2 minutes on the clock where lebron is great but Kobe is great? Fine.

But if you have to suck his ass in compariong running a team...play making making others better????? Hands down Lebron. Most BS soft calls in the game? Absolutely Kobe.

Most absurd all D selection in history???? KOBE!!!!!! The guy rarely plays any D. And rarely guards the other teams best player.


Kobe is great. But the o bsessive need to compare him to Jordan who was far and away better in a tougher league on both sides of the ball...is why these debates go on and on. That...and of course the Pau driven Kobe legacy.

No way we have these Jordan issues in our face if the Pau gift never happens.

what if jordan didnt have pippen? (screen is now jumping...)

[mikhailjordan]

- The one year Kobe had Butler, Odom missed 18 games, Kobe missed 16 and Brian Grant was a shell of his former self.

As for Butler himself his second year in Miami he averaged 9 ppg on 38% shooting... Thankfully playing next to Kobe that one year he did shoot a then career high 45% from the field... But I'm sure Kobe had nothing to do with that, right?

- No that was not a better supporting cast than any supporting cast Lebron has ever had:

Chucky Atkins / Tierre Brown / Tony Babbitt
Kobe Bryant / Devean George / Sasha Vujacic / Kareem Rush
Caron Butler / Jumaine Jones / LUke Walton
Lamar Odom / Brian Cook
Chris Mihm / Brian Grant / Vlade Divac

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html

*(Check out the minutes and games played)

vs.

Mo Williams / Daniel Gibson / Sebastian Telfair
Anthony Parker / Delonte West /
Lebron James / Jamario Moon / Jawad williams / Danny Green
Antawn Jamison / Anderson Varejao / Darnell Jackson
Shaquille O'neal / JJ Hickson / Zydrunas Ilgauskas

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2010.html

Defensively those two supporting casts aren't comparable, and offensively there's MUCH more balance in the Cavaliers supporting cast... If you're a name value evaluator I can see how you'd jump to the comical conclusion that Kobe had a better supporting cast in 2004-2005 than Lebron did in 2009-2010 but that is just not the case...

- I'm under the impression that had Karl Malone not gone down the Lakers would have won that series. Without Malone to space the floor the Pistons were successfully able to deny Shaq the ball for key portions of the game. Not to mention with no viable backup big men the Lakers were forced into playing offensive + defensive liabilities Stanislav Medvedenko and Brian Cook more minutes than they deserved... As for Kobe's role in the whole mess he did press shots, but he was not THE only reason why the Lakers lost that series. Revisionist historians love pinning the blame squarely on Bryant but Phil Jackson took too long to make proper adjustments to get Shaq open, and when those adjustments were made they were largely ignored by a then disgruntled Shaq.

I know it might be hard to believe but Kobe Bryant wasn't the only one who lost to the Detroit Pistons that series, the Los Angeles Lakers did as well !

- So Shaq was the consummate pro? A team player who never complained anywhere he went? That's not even close to being true... He bickered and pouted just as much Kobe. He was insulted that the Lakers wouldn't cave in to his excessive contract demands and the media spun that as Kobe vs. Shaq Round 46, "one must stay one must go". It was never that simple.

- Kobe's not Top 20 of all-time ? I'd love to see your list of 20 players better than him... I have him around Top 10 all-time, still on the outside looking in but it's close...

- I wasn't ripping Lebron I was pointing out the fact that:

a. Lebron does not move without the ball.
b. Lebron is a ball-stopper in the mold of a post-shaq-pre-pau Kobe, and early years Jordan.
c. Far too often Lebron only looks to make the assist pass thus hurting his team's ball movement.*

*This isn't to say Lebron is selfish but rather that he was brought up playing basketball always having the ball in his hands and being asked to do everything. The only problem here is that in handling the ball so much and not cutting without the ball James turns his teammates into mere gawkers they sit there, watch, and wait, and when they do get the ball they have to go up with the shot.

For a spot-up shooter like Ray Allen those kind of feeds would work but when you look at someone like Antawn Jamison for example, he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. You don't throw him the ball and say "shoot!" or pass it to him in the post and say "go up with it!" Jamison has been such a deadly scorer in the league because of his size-up moves from midrange and how he transitions from that area of the court to around the basket with crafty floaters / moves in the lane...

Lebron needs to allow his teammates to create for themselves at times. This is a classic case where less would be more.

[Preludepunk27]

^^^

Ok guys enough of this nonsense because nobody is gonna change anyone's mind.

[jeff1624]

Not sure how this turned into another Kobe VS Lebron thread.. so I'm gonna go ahead and restart the orginal randomness that use to occur here.

I'm seriously considering going to that Jay-Z/Eminem concert at Yankee Stadium this spetember..