2017 Nets Offseason Thread II

[TinmanZBoy]

Grab tarik black! please

[Paradise]

I don't get all the dislike for KCP. I know a lot of you aren't sold on giving him a max deal, and neither am I to be honest, but he's super intriguing to me.

He easily fits a lot of needs for us. He's young, only 24. By all accounts of Pistons fans, he's their most intense player. He might even be the best defensive player we'd have, a glaring need. He took 437 3pt attempts last year, in the top 20 of the NBA, in one of the slowest offenses (bottom third) in the league last year. He'd surely be a lock to shoot over 500 3's here, and I'd be on the side of the argument saying he'd see an increase in efficiency.

I know everyone wants to anoint Levert as the next chosen one b/c things have been so damn bleak, but maybe a year or 2 off the bench won't kill him. He'll only be a year 2 player. He'll still get his minutes. If something happens to Lin or Russell, he'll be put into the starting lineup without a doubt. Make him hungry now, and then when we can start Russ, Levert, KCP together, they could be a legit starting unit playing to each other's strengths.

Yeah, saying the name Caldwell-Pope doesn't really elicit greatness now, but if he becomes part of our core trio, provides fantastic defense, improves his 3pt%, gives us 18-22 ppg during his contract... I'm just saying, if something happens where he becomes a Net, I think we all should give him the benefit of living up to what he could be for us.

Why are we against him? Because he's a mediocre player. His TS% is well below average, his PER is below average, subpar playmaker, and he doesn't even score much. Not to mention, he's only 6'5" and better suited at SG, where we already have D'Angelo Russell. The only real thing going for him is his defense. Do you really want to pay a lot of money to a player with glaring deficiencies like that? If we do, there's a solid chance of him becoming one of the worst contracts in the league, unless he drastically improves his game.

Russell won't be at SG for the next four years. The Nets are still looking long terms so it could be a simple theory of signing him to develop him in the same context we look at D'angelo.



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[Prokorov]

I don't get all the dislike for KCP. I know a lot of you aren't sold on giving him a max deal, and neither am I to be honest, but he's super intriguing to me.

He easily fits a lot of needs for us. He's young, only 24. By all accounts of Pistons fans, he's their most intense player. He might even be the best defensive player we'd have, a glaring need. He took 437 3pt attempts last year, in the top 20 of the NBA, in one of the slowest offenses (bottom third) in the league last year. He'd surely be a lock to shoot over 500 3's here, and I'd be on the side of the argument saying he'd see an increase in efficiency.

I know everyone wants to anoint Levert as the next chosen one b/c things have been so damn bleak, but maybe a year or 2 off the bench won't kill him. He'll only be a year 2 player. He'll still get his minutes. If something happens to Lin or Russell, he'll be put into the starting lineup without a doubt. Make him hungry now, and then when we can start Russ, Levert, KCP together, they could be a legit starting unit playing to each other's strengths.

Yeah, saying the name Caldwell-Pope doesn't really elicit greatness now, but if he becomes part of our core trio, provides fantastic defense, improves his 3pt%, gives us 18-22 ppg during his contract... I'm just saying, if something happens where he becomes a Net, I think we all should give him the benefit of living up to what he could be for us.

Why are we against him? Because he's a mediocre player. His TS% is well below average, his PER is below average, subpar playmaker, and he doesn't even score much. Not to mention, he's only 6'5" and better suited at SG, where we already have D'Angelo Russell. The only real thing going for him is his defense. Do you really want to pay a lot of money to a player with glaring deficiencies like that? If we do, there's a solid chance of him becoming one of the worst contracts in the league, unless he drastically improves his game.

this exactyl.... at least with porter he has elite offesnvie efficiency an excellent 3 point shooting and has ideal length.

KCP really does 1 thing well... defend. and he isnt an all nba defender, just a good one. he does very little well offensively. shoot threes but again 33% career 35% last year is solid but not special

[Prokorov]

Give KCP an offer sheet, that's not a max deal. If Detroit matches, then we tie their cap up.

Detroit's cap is tied up regardless. We can pay KCP 19.8M a season without having to make a salary cutting move. If you offered 23M a season we'd have to clear 3.2M in order to be able to match.

We're going to be near/at 125M regardless - either with KCP at 19M and keeping Morris ($5M) or matching KCP and trading away Morris.

can you explain this? is this a new addition to the CBA for this season? i though you could go over the cap to any amount to retain your own RFA?

[DarkXaero]

I don't get all the dislike for KCP. I know a lot of you aren't sold on giving him a max deal, and neither am I to be honest, but he's super intriguing to me.

He easily fits a lot of needs for us. He's young, only 24. By all accounts of Pistons fans, he's their most intense player. He might even be the best defensive player we'd have, a glaring need. He took 437 3pt attempts last year, in the top 20 of the NBA, in one of the slowest offenses (bottom third) in the league last year. He'd surely be a lock to shoot over 500 3's here, and I'd be on the side of the argument saying he'd see an increase in efficiency.

I know everyone wants to anoint Levert as the next chosen one b/c things have been so damn bleak, but maybe a year or 2 off the bench won't kill him. He'll only be a year 2 player. He'll still get his minutes. If something happens to Lin or Russell, he'll be put into the starting lineup without a doubt. Make him hungry now, and then when we can start Russ, Levert, KCP together, they could be a legit starting unit playing to each other's strengths.

Yeah, saying the name Caldwell-Pope doesn't really elicit greatness now, but if he becomes part of our core trio, provides fantastic defense, improves his 3pt%, gives us 18-22 ppg during his contract... I'm just saying, if something happens where he becomes a Net, I think we all should give him the benefit of living up to what he could be for us.

Why are we against him? Because he's a mediocre player. His TS% is well below average, his PER is below average, subpar playmaker, and he doesn't even score much. Not to mention, he's only 6'5" and better suited at SG, where we already have D'Angelo Russell. The only real thing going for him is his defense. Do you really want to pay a lot of money to a player with glaring deficiencies like that? If we do, there's a solid chance of him becoming one of the worst contracts in the league, unless he drastically improves his game.

Russell won't be at SG for the next four years. The Nets are still looking long terms so it could be a simple theory of signing him to develop him in the same context we look at D'angelo.



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Well, for short term, we're looking to start at Russell at SG. Many people believe that Russell is better suited at SG anyway. Even if he is moved to PG, we still have Caris Levert who is more suited to being a SG than SF. At least with a guy like Otto Porter, he's a natural SF at almost 6'9", perhaps even capable of playing 4 in the future. KCP doesn't give us that.

[Kilo]

Give KCP an offer sheet, that's not a max deal. If Detroit matches, then we tie their cap up.

Detroit's cap is tied up regardless. We can pay KCP 19.8M a season without having to make a salary cutting move. If you offered 23M a season we'd have to clear 3.2M in order to be able to match.

We're going to be near/at 125M regardless - either with KCP at 19M and keeping Morris ($5M) or matching KCP and trading away Morris.

can you explain this? is this a new addition to the CBA for this season? i though you could go over the cap to any amount to retain your own RFA?

I tried to explain it to you over in the Pistons board thread you're also commenting on. I might end up just confusing you more though, but I think I understand the jist of what happened now.

[steady]

Read on Twitter

Interesting idea. As long as we get some other assets from Raptors. We know he knows Kenny Atkinson's system

[Prokorov]

Ok so basically you can go over the cap to sign your own RFA.... but its tricky with the pistons.

the pistons are under the tax but over the cap. they used the non tax payers MLE to sign galloway. since they used a non tax payer exception, they can now not go over the tax.

very interesting scenario that could allow us to get KCP at closer to 20 million then 25 million

i still woudl hate a kcp deal at 4/80 but obvviously the lower the better

[Keith Van Horn]

I don't get all the dislike for KCP. I know a lot of you aren't sold on giving him a max deal, and neither am I to be honest, but he's super intriguing to me.

i dont think anyone dislikes him. i think people dislike the idea of giving max money to a role player

He easily fits a lot of needs for us. He's young, only 24. By all accounts of Pistons fans, he's their most intense player. He might even be the best defensive player we'd have, a glaring need. He took 437 3pt attempts last year, in the top 20 of the NBA, in one of the slowest offenses (bottom third) in the league last year. He'd surely be a lock to shoot over 500 3's here, and I'd be on the side of the argument saying he'd see an increase in efficiency.

VERY few players increase attempts and see their efficiency also rise. it usually goes the other way. especially on 500 attempts.

Also he is a solid 3 point shooter, but not a very good one. 33% career and 35% last year. although it is on really high volume. maybe he improves on it, but as of now, he is an above average shooter not a great one.

the other issue is he doesnt do anything besides score/hit threes. and he isnt great at either of those 2 things. he doesnt (3 a game)rebound or create offense(2.5 assists)

he averaged just 13/8 points despite playing 34 minutes and did it on poor efficiency(13 PER, 51.9 TS%)

he is a good but not lockdown defender.

you are really getting a role player. you'd be banking 100% on massive improvement

I know everyone wants to anoint Levert as the next chosen one b/c things have been so damn bleak, but maybe a year or 2 off the bench won't kill him. He'll only be a year 2 player. He'll still get his minutes. If something happens to Lin or Russell, he'll be put into the starting lineup without a doubt. Make him hungry now, and then when we can start Russ, Levert, KCP together, they could be a legit starting unit playing to each other's strengths.

im not convinced that KCP is better then levert right now. let alone in another year or so. them playing together or not doesnt really effect the decision anyhow. you can give role guys max money

Yeah, saying the name Caldwell-Pope doesn't really elicit greatness now, but if he becomes part of our core trio, provides fantastic defense, improves his 3pt%, gives us 18-22 ppg during his contract... I'm just saying, if something happens where he becomes a Net, I think we all should give him the benefit of living up to what he could be for us.

18-22 PPG seems like a real stretch. he is a poor scorer. outside of being an ok 3 point shooter he does nothing well offensivly

I'm definitely on the optimistic side with this guy, we'd be giving him a deal based on his potential for growth going into his prime, not his current level of play. I know, risk, and it could suck, but that's part of the game. Marks can stand pat and do nothing, sign older small potatoes guys, or try to bring the Nets back from the dead by hitting a homerun and putting us on the map with a series of underappreciated moves (like getting Lin, trading for Russell, and signing a name he thinks will help us win this summer).

Ask yourself, are there any current STUDS that would even consider the Nets at this point? Those guys that are TRULY deserving of the max contracts? Were we even on Blake Griffin's radar? Gordon Hayward's radar? How about any of the guys last year? Will we be next year? the answer is no.

But if we play beyond expectations, Marks/Kenny starts turning heads and get more positive recognition around the league, players have fun and we establish a healthy and respectable culture here... this might be one of the best ways to do it. I may be totally off-base with my assessment of the situation and I'll come take my lashes if we sign him and he's a turd.

With all that said I'd still rather have Porter, but I won't be coming on the forums pissing all over any deal if we make one for KCP.

[Paradise]

Why are we against him? Because he's a mediocre player. His TS% is well below average, his PER is below average, subpar playmaker, and he doesn't even score much. Not to mention, he's only 6'5" and better suited at SG, where we already have D'Angelo Russell. The only real thing going for him is his defense. Do you really want to pay a lot of money to a player with glaring deficiencies like that? If we do, there's a solid chance of him becoming one of the worst contracts in the league, unless he drastically improves his game.

Russell won't be at SG for the next four years. The Nets are still looking long terms so it could be a simple theory of signing him to develop him in the same context we look at D'angelo.



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Well, for short term, we're looking to start at Russell at SG. Many people believe that Russell is better suited at SG anyway. Even if he is moved to PG, we still have Caris Levert who is more suited to being a SG than SF. At least with a guy like Otto Porter, he's a natural SF at almost 6'9", perhaps even capable of playing 4 in the future. KCP doesn't give us that.

If the Nets are 'sold' on a dual PG backcourt which means they are also cool with developing LeVert into a SF. They made it a point to let him play a lot at that spot. I don't think KCP being a 'fit' is the problem.

It's really the same conversation we have with Russell. It's based off efficiency. Can he go from 35% to 37% to 39% over the course of his contract?

We can use Dinwiddie as an example. 17% 3pt shooter in two seasons with Detroit and broke out with a 37% average in one year with us.




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[Prokorov]

I'm definitely on the optimistic side with this guy, we'd be giving him a deal based on his potential for growth going into his prime, not his current level of play. I know, risk, and it could suck, but that's part of the game. Marks can stand pat and do nothing, sign older small potatoes guys, or try to bring the Nets back from the dead by hitting a homerun and putting us on the map with a series of underappreciated moves (like getting Lin, trading for Russell, and signing a name he thinks will help us win this summer).

If you are going on potential, why not sign someone who wont cost you 4/100? this way if they fall short you arent left holding the leagues worst contract?

I mean, if KCP had even one very good to great aspect to his game i could see maybe justfying it. but he doesnt. and to add to that, he does soo poorly in so many areas:

poor scorer on poor efficiency
poor rebounder
struggles on D vs bigger players (according to pistons board)
doesnt create offense
doesnt get to the FT line
poor mid range shooter
below average on drives

Ask yourself, are there any current STUDS that would even consider the Nets at this point? Those guys that are TRULY deserving of the max contracts? Were we even on Blake Griffin's radar? Gordon Hayward's radar? How about any of the guys last year? Will we be next year? the answer is no.

Just because there are no studs doesnt mean you have to go and spend 25 million on an average starting player/role player. not getting something good doesnt mean go do something bad.

But if we play beyond expectations, Marks/Kenny starts turning heads and get more positive recognition around the league, players have fun and we establish a healthy and respectable culture here... this might be one of the best ways to do it. I may be totally off-base with my assessment of the situation and I'll come take my lashes if we sign him and he's a turd.

With all that said I'd still rather have Porter, but I won't be coming on the forums pissing all over any deal if we make one for KCP.

I mean i think you just arent farmiliar with KCP. what kind of player do you think we are getting? he is worse then bogs on offense. defensively he is good but not great.

[kamaze]

Porter and KCP are ok but they're restricted both teams will match but under Russian orders make them sweat.
Take on a salary dump and get a pick Philly mapped out the blueprint.

[Prokorov]

Russell won't be at SG for the next four years. The Nets are still looking long terms so it could be a simple theory of signing him to develop him in the same context we look at D'angelo.



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Well, for short term, we're looking to start at Russell at SG. Many people believe that Russell is better suited at SG anyway. Even if he is moved to PG, we still have Caris Levert who is more suited to being a SG than SF. At least with a guy like Otto Porter, he's a natural SF at almost 6'9", perhaps even capable of playing 4 in the future. KCP doesn't give us that.

If the Nets are 'sold' on a dual PG backcourt which means they are also cool with developing LeVert into a SF. They made it a point to let him play a lot at that spot. I don't think KCP being a 'fit' is the problem.

It's really the same conversation we have with Russell. It's based off efficiency. Can he go from 35% to 37% to 39% over the course of his contract?

We can use Dinwiddie as an example. 17% 3pt shooter in two seasons with Detroit and broke out with a 37% average in one year with us.




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its alot more then just "improving 3 point shooting". KCP had a 13 PER and 51.9 TS%. thats not good. he didnt rebound and he didnt create any offense.

also dinwiddie took 1 threes in 12 games with detroit before we got him and 65 attemps in 35 games the year before.... it is much more likely that dinwiddie had a small scattered sample then it is he drastically improved as a shooter. especially considering how excellent dinwiddie was from three at colorodo.

KCP took 6 threes a game. muc tougher to improve drastically with even more volume then that. not that he cant but even if he does that wouldnt make a big difference. he needs to literally improve on everything offensively

[Keith Van Horn]

I see your points Prok. I don't disagree but just providing counter comments.

He doesn't have to do everything for us. He'll be expected to score in a 3 point barrage offense and probably take tough defensive assignments. Grind it out every night.

Are there any other prospects out there still holding the line for us? I'm legit asking, not trying to be a smart ass.

We could do nothing and not sign anyone to that role, and I see the benefit in that. I wouldn't be pissed if we strike out.

in the end I'm hoping we can get Porter since he does fit much better the way we're constructed now.

[Prokorov]

to put KCP's offense into perspective a bit.

KCP
13.8/3.3/2.5 on 39/35/83 with 13 PER 52 TS%

Kilpatrick
13.1/4.0/2.2 on 41/34/81 with 13 PER 54 TS%

Bogdanovic
13.7/3.4/2.1 on 45/37/89 with 14 PER 59 TS%

Offensively KCP was worse then both kilpatrick and bogs.... yes skil is an awful defender and KCP is a good one. is good but not great defense worth an extra 23.5 million?

would you give the max to kilpatrcik if he became a good defender?

[Curns13]

What about Carroll and OG for Skill and the Pacers 2nd (likely 30-35 next draft)? If they don't want Skill they can have Harris or Goodwin. If they wanna take on better players then they can have Booker plus any of the minimum guys.

[Prokorov]

I see your points Prok. I don't disagree but just providing counter comments.

He doesn't have to do everything for us. He'll be expected to score in a 3 point barrage offense and probably take tough defensive assignments. Grind it out every night.

Are there any other prospects out there still holding the line for us? I'm legit asking, not trying to be a smart ass.

We could do nothing and not sign anyone to that role, and I see the benefit in that. I wouldn't be pissed if we strike out.

in the end I'm hoping we can get Porter since he does fit much better the way we're constructed now.

if all KCP does is make threes and defend id be absolutely pissed that we gave him the max.

i like olynk. he would cost alot less then the max. i like covington next year as an RFA. i lke trade options to take salary dumps.

there are few things i think would be worse then KCP on the max. its not as bad as crabbe at 20 million but its close.

for me it comes down to this: KCP is not a good offensive player. and i dont think you can give max dollars to someone who isnt a good offensive player

[Prokorov]

What about Carroll and OG for Skill and the Pacers 2nd (likely 30-35 next draft)? If they don't want Skill they can have Harris or Goodwin. If they wanna take on better players then they can have Booker plus any of the minimum guys.

i love this move if we can get OG. that would be a steal for marks

[Papi_swav]

What are you guys on? I don't even like Derozan but if he were to be traded, it would be for lotto pick prospects, not a salary dump. The guy is an all star SG tied up long term, even if he's a player whose raw stats are deceptive.

I guess you missed the Paul George trade

[Prokorov]

What are you guys on? I don't even like Derozan but if he were to be traded, it would be for lotto pick prospects, not a salary dump. The guy is an all star SG tied up long term, even if he's a player whose raw stats are deceptive.

I guess you missed the Paul George trade

Derozan has 4 years on his contract.

paul george was a pending free agent who flat out said he was going to LA

i dont think you can compare the 2 situations at all.

a better example is jimmy butler who has 3 years on his deal. Butler didnt get a great return but it was certainly not a salary dump.