Early discussion on the 2023 offseason

[vincecarter4pres]

I don’t trust anything about Ben. You ship him out the first split second you can, for something of value, or an expiring contract, or a vet on a two year deal whose wildly overpaid but makes perfect sense to help the young guys who matter’s, progress(Bridges, Clax, Cam J, any draft picks this year).

i dont think there's any deal that makes sense for him at the moment. you would have to take back an equally bad amount of $ that likely runs longer than his. i think you come up with a way to maximize him this year and if he tanks then he's at least an expiring next summer.

Agreed and only because you most likely have to add draft pick compensation just to move him at this point.

But although I love optimism, there’s a lot of fool me once stuff in this thread being thrown to the side, when we’re basically on the fool me 4 or 5 times juncture of battered wife syndrome.

[Netaman]

I don’t trust anything about Ben. You ship him out the first split second you can, for something of value, or an expiring contract, or a vet on a two year deal whose wildly overpaid but makes perfect sense to help the young guys who matter’s, progress(Bridges, Clax, Cam J, any draft picks this year).

i dont think there's any deal that makes sense for him at the moment. you would have to take back an equally bad amount of $ that likely runs longer than his. i think you come up with a way to maximize him this year and if he tanks then he's at least an expiring next summer.

Agreed and only because you most likely have to add draft pick compensation just to move him at this point.

But although I love optimism, there’s a lot of fool me once stuff in this thread being thrown to the side, when we’re basically on the fool me 4 or 5 times juncture of battered wife syndrome.

it has been a real long time since he was a stud and point of fact is we've never seen it here so it's unlikely we ever do.

that said it's year 2 after back surgery so who knows. if nets can squeeze anything decent out of him he at least becomes trade-able.

even as a shell of himself last year he played decent defense and his p36's were almost triple double (10/9/8).

the good news is that the nets roster is already halfway assembled with the types of players who would fit around him with bridges, claxton, cj. 2 elite 3/D+ stretching the floor and the other is great around/above the rim. the nets needs with or without simmons are the same (fvv and lillard for example are good fits either way).

[Tha King]

These hiring looks like we might focus on development and not go star chasing unless someone demands a trade.

Read on Twitter

?

Yeah, most definitely these hirings more about development and has nothing to do with competing right now.

I need to start practicing my JV trashing speeches.

Ben posting a lot of work out stuff. His probation start this season. If he fails, need to use his expiring as salary filler for someone who's available. If he gets back to his borderline all star level, that's when and where things can get very intriguing/interesting.

100% Ben is the biggest wildcard we have that could get us back into competing in the east if he gets back to philly level. God for bid if he took another turn like deciding to shoot right handed and got avg jumpshot man we talkin a top 10ish player. I think he will try his best to get atleast to philly level, just off the fact he seems to want to be part of the Nets.

The most important piece on the roster is Clax imo...he's the only one with perennial all star upside. He's a unicorn athletically for a center and has so much more to go offensively. With another step up I can easily see him being the best player on the team next year.

[Tha King]

I don’t trust anything about Ben. You ship him out the first split second you can, for something of value, or an expiring contract, or a vet on a two year deal whose wildly overpaid but makes perfect sense to help the young guys who matter’s, progress(Bridges, Clax, Cam J, any draft picks this year).

i dont think there's any deal that makes sense for him at the moment. you would have to take back an equally bad amount of $ that likely runs longer than his. i think you come up with a way to maximize him this year and if he tanks then he's at least an expiring next summer.

Agreed and only because you most likely have to add draft pick compensation just to move him at this point.

But although I love optimism, there’s a lot of fool me once stuff in this thread being thrown to the side, when we’re basically on the fool me 4 or 5 times juncture of battered wife syndrome.

the expectations for Simmons should be a good rotational player off the bench that can help rebound and playmake.

[vincecarter4pres]

i dont think there's any deal that makes sense for him at the moment. you would have to take back an equally bad amount of $ that likely runs longer than his. i think you come up with a way to maximize him this year and if he tanks then he's at least an expiring next summer.

Agreed and only because you most likely have to add draft pick compensation just to move him at this point.

But although I love optimism, there’s a lot of fool me once stuff in this thread being thrown to the side, when we’re basically on the fool me 4 or 5 times juncture of battered wife syndrome.

the expectations for Simmons should be a good rotational player off the bench that can help rebound and playmake.

They should be, but in comparison to his salary, draft status, age, and a couple of really good yet fatally flawed seasons, there is much more than that.

I also feel he’s currently the type of player that makes for media and lockerroom distractions and will be until 4+ seasons from now when he’s finally accepted and settled into a league average salary glue guy with zero expectations role on some other team.

[vincecarter4pres]

i dont think there's any deal that makes sense for him at the moment. you would have to take back an equally bad amount of $ that likely runs longer than his. i think you come up with a way to maximize him this year and if he tanks then he's at least an expiring next summer.

Agreed and only because you most likely have to add draft pick compensation just to move him at this point.

But although I love optimism, there’s a lot of fool me once stuff in this thread being thrown to the side, when we’re basically on the fool me 4 or 5 times juncture of battered wife syndrome.

it has been a real long time since he was a stud and point of fact is we've never seen it here so it's unlikely we ever do.

that said it's year 2 after back surgery so who knows. if nets can squeeze anything decent out of him he at least becomes trade-able.

even as a shell of himself last year he played decent defense and his p36's were almost triple double (10/9/8).

the good news is that the nets roster is already halfway assembled with the types of players who would fit around him with bridges, claxton, cj. 2 elite 3/D+ stretching the floor and the other is great around/above the rim. the nets needs with or without simmons are the same (fvv and lillard for example are good fits either way).

I still feel like that’s the problem, your latter part of post.

He’s not a good enough player and he is too terrible a shooter/scorer, to build/fit around him. He’s a 6xth man of the year candidate, too many flaws to rely on him as a starter, period. You have to work way to hard up and down the starting lineup to hide him for stuff others should provide.

Once that is accepted in the FO and on the coaching staff, the better.

[Netaman]

i dont think there's any deal that makes sense for him at the moment. you would have to take back an equally bad amount of $ that likely runs longer than his. i think you come up with a way to maximize him this year and if he tanks then he's at least an expiring next summer.

Agreed and only because you most likely have to add draft pick compensation just to move him at this point.

But although I love optimism, there’s a lot of fool me once stuff in this thread being thrown to the side, when we’re basically on the fool me 4 or 5 times juncture of battered wife syndrome.

the expectations for Simmons should be a good rotational player off the bench that can help rebound and playmake.

i think the expectations for simmons should be nothing but you give him a path to a spot. i think you kind of structure things such that it's dinwiddie or simmons competing for the 5th starter spot.

i think you first have to secure a true lead guard this offseason, i'd like to move up for a lotto player in the draft but most likely that player won't be a day 1 starter. edit to clarify - i dont think the player you move up for in the lotto is necessarily the league guard. that's 2 separate moves.

dinwiddie has 1 year left and simmons has 2, both of their fits beyond this year are questionable but both have also started on playoff teams so they bring some desireable skills to the table. ideally ben is healthy and takes that spot with dinwiddie as 6th man - which we know is probably his best role on a winning team.

[Netaman]

Agreed and only because you most likely have to add draft pick compensation just to move him at this point.

But although I love optimism, there’s a lot of fool me once stuff in this thread being thrown to the side, when we’re basically on the fool me 4 or 5 times juncture of battered wife syndrome.

it has been a real long time since he was a stud and point of fact is we've never seen it here so it's unlikely we ever do.

that said it's year 2 after back surgery so who knows. if nets can squeeze anything decent out of him he at least becomes trade-able.

even as a shell of himself last year he played decent defense and his p36's were almost triple double (10/9/8).

the good news is that the nets roster is already halfway assembled with the types of players who would fit around him with bridges, claxton, cj. 2 elite 3/D+ stretching the floor and the other is great around/above the rim. the nets needs with or without simmons are the same (fvv and lillard for example are good fits either way).

I still feel like that’s the problem, your latter part of post.

He’s not a good enough player and he is too terrible a shooter/scorer, to build/fit around him. He’s a 6xth man of the year candidate, too many flaws to rely on him as a starter, period. You have to work way to hard up and down the starting lineup to hide him for stuff others should provide.

Once that is accepted in the FO and on the coaching staff, the better.

i dont think anyone knows what he is. there's a good argument he's the highest variance player in the nba. he could literally walk out of training camp if things arent going well. or healthier he could be ready to move up to 35+ mpg again and runaway win CPOY.

as a team highly unlikely to compete next year the nets best move given his current value is to just see what happens. the only thing worse than him sucking, burying him, and having to find a way to dump his expiring contract next year would be giving him away now and him actually coming back strong. we've already experienced the worst of the downside.

[Tha King]

Agreed and only because you most likely have to add draft pick compensation just to move him at this point.

But although I love optimism, there’s a lot of fool me once stuff in this thread being thrown to the side, when we’re basically on the fool me 4 or 5 times juncture of battered wife syndrome.

it has been a real long time since he was a stud and point of fact is we've never seen it here so it's unlikely we ever do.

that said it's year 2 after back surgery so who knows. if nets can squeeze anything decent out of him he at least becomes trade-able.

even as a shell of himself last year he played decent defense and his p36's were almost triple double (10/9/8).

the good news is that the nets roster is already halfway assembled with the types of players who would fit around him with bridges, claxton, cj. 2 elite 3/D+ stretching the floor and the other is great around/above the rim. the nets needs with or without simmons are the same (fvv and lillard for example are good fits either way).

I still feel like that’s the problem, your latter part of post.

He’s not a good enough player and he is too terrible a shooter/scorer, to build/fit around him. He’s a 6xth man of the year candidate, too many flaws to rely on him as a starter, period. You have to work way to hard up and down the starting lineup to hide him for stuff others should provide.

Once that is accepted in the FO and on the coaching staff, the better.

Agree. He's just too difficult of a player to fit into lineups in this version of the league.

Even at his best he was a perimeter player w/o the most important skillset in the league for perimeter players but the Sixers had the perfect center next to him and a lot of spacers. I just can't see how he's a starter next to Clax w/o KD gravity, even if he improves levels from where he was last year.

[Netaman]

it has been a real long time since he was a stud and point of fact is we've never seen it here so it's unlikely we ever do.

that said it's year 2 after back surgery so who knows. if nets can squeeze anything decent out of him he at least becomes trade-able.

even as a shell of himself last year he played decent defense and his p36's were almost triple double (10/9/8).

the good news is that the nets roster is already halfway assembled with the types of players who would fit around him with bridges, claxton, cj. 2 elite 3/D+ stretching the floor and the other is great around/above the rim. the nets needs with or without simmons are the same (fvv and lillard for example are good fits either way).

I still feel like that’s the problem, your latter part of post.

He’s not a good enough player and he is too terrible a shooter/scorer, to build/fit around him. He’s a 6xth man of the year candidate, too many flaws to rely on him as a starter, period. You have to work way to hard up and down the starting lineup to hide him for stuff others should provide.

Once that is accepted in the FO and on the coaching staff, the better.

Agree. He's just too difficult of a player to fit into lineups in this version of the league.

Even at his best he was a perimeter player w/o the most important skillset in the league for perimeter players but the Sixers had the perfect center next to him and a lot of spacers. I just can't see how he's a starter next to Clax w/o KD gravity, even if he improves levels from where he was last year.

I don't know i think you could say the same thing about a bunch of players who simply dont shoot well - marcus smart being one of them who has started the last 2 years on one of the best teams in the league. ben is definitely a unicorn but at the end of the day the weakness is simple - his shooting. not unlike smart if you surround him with enough shooting and build a roster with enough redundancy to where he doesn't need to be on the floor closing every game, the healthy philly version of him can still be a highly productive 2 way player.

whether or not that guy still exists is the question (and the likely answer is no).

[vincecarter4pres]

I still feel like that’s the problem, your latter part of post.

He’s not a good enough player and he is too terrible a shooter/scorer, to build/fit around him. He’s a 6xth man of the year candidate, too many flaws to rely on him as a starter, period. You have to work way to hard up and down the starting lineup to hide him for stuff others should provide.

Once that is accepted in the FO and on the coaching staff, the better.

Agree. He's just too difficult of a player to fit into lineups in this version of the league.

Even at his best he was a perimeter player w/o the most important skillset in the league for perimeter players but the Sixers had the perfect center next to him and a lot of spacers. I just can't see how he's a starter next to Clax w/o KD gravity, even if he improves levels from where he was last year.

I don't know i think you could say the same thing about a bunch of players who simply dont shoot well - marcus smart being one of them who has started the last 2 years on one of the best teams in the league. ben is definitely a unicorn but at the end of the day the weakness is simple - his shooting. not unlike smart if you surround him with enough shooting and build a roster with enough redundancy to where he doesn't need to be on the floor closing every game, the healthy philly version of him can still be a highly productive 2 way player.

whether or not that guy still exists is the question (and the likely answer is no).

Smart is a proficient enough 3 point shooter on heavy volume. And the lineup isn’t built around Smart, he’s built into the lineup. Also he’s a pretty plug and play player in most any lineup.

Feel it has to be stressed what an awful and unwilling shooter Simmons is, because it’s being written off as if he’s just a standard issue bad shooter. He’s like 90’s bruiser center/power forward level poor shooter and scorer.

[Netaman]

a bruce brown thread on the mainboard had me thinking about him and if we can move dfs/royce at the draft, i think he'd be a great fit to come back with the MLE (which spotrac lists at 12.2m) if he doesn't get more than that on the open market. 26 years old so fits better into the age range with bridges/cam j than royce/dfs at a similar price and allows you to move those 2 at the draft for extra assets.

ideally you can leverage royce and the picks to move up for a lotto pick, maybe use dfs to grab a 2024 first so they aren't empty handed next year?

sign Brown with the MLE and get FVV in a S&T matched with cam t, harris, patty.

FVV
Dinwiddie/Simmons
Bridges
Cam J
Claxton

Brown
Simmons or Dinwiddie
some kind of back up big better than sharpe
Sumner
draft picks (ideally at least 1 of them a lotto pick)

maybe bring back Yuta too? not sure that group gets all the way under the luxury tax but i think it could be close.

[Keith Van Horn]

I'm hoping we can make a bit of a bigger splash first before looking at the Bruce Brown type backups.

I'm still on board with the FVV pickup, and I wonder if we can get him then do we have a shot at wiggling Siakam away from Toronto. It seems like it's feasible if we're not going in the Dame direction.

[Netaman]

I'm hoping we can make a bit of a bigger splash first before looking at the Bruce Brown type backups.

I'm still on board with the FVV pickup, and I wonder if we can get him then do we have a shot at wiggling Siakam away from Toronto. It seems like it's feasible if we're not going in the Dame direction.

i dont see the nets getting siakam unless they decide they are willing to move claxton (which i wouldnt do). if the price was reasonable or if masai liked what the nets have the deal would have been done at the deadline.

there's not a ton out there this summer and with so many lotto teams floating their picks for the few "stars" on the market (siakam, og) i just don't see the nets winning those bidding wars or having very many options. i think adding a few more glue players (like fvv/brown/etc) and hoping bridges/clax/cj can continue building on last year is the path. and if by some good luck simmons can come back anywhere close to healthy they will take a step forward and still have a ton of future picks to deal from.

[vincecarter4pres]

I'm hoping we can make a bit of a bigger splash first before looking at the Bruce Brown type backups.

I'm still on board with the FVV pickup, and I wonder if we can get him then do we have a shot at wiggling Siakam away from Toronto. It seems like it's feasible if we're not going in the Dame direction.

i dont see the nets getting siakam unless they decide they are willing to move claxton (which i wouldnt do). if the price was reasonable or if masai liked what the nets have the deal would have been done at the deadline.

there's not a ton out there this summer and with so many lotto teams floating their picks for the few "stars" on the market (siakam, og) i just don't see the nets winning those bidding wars or having very many options. i think adding a few more glue players (like fvv/brown/etc) and hoping bridges/clax/cj can continue building on last year is the path. and if by some good luck simmons can come back anywhere close to healthy they will take a step forward and still have a ton of future picks to deal from.

Yup yup.

Unless Marks goes for Lillard, Trae Young or KAT, I don’t think we’ll be in play for any of the other big names.

I think it’s a lot more likely he moves up in the draft and pulls off a FVV S&T for something like Dinwiddie and Cam Thomas and a couple 2nd’s in FA.

Tbh, FVV would be a pretty big pickup, I’d compare it to Brunson to the Knicks, or Lowry to Toronto years back.

[Netaman]

I'm hoping we can make a bit of a bigger splash first before looking at the Bruce Brown type backups.

I'm still on board with the FVV pickup, and I wonder if we can get him then do we have a shot at wiggling Siakam away from Toronto. It seems like it's feasible if we're not going in the Dame direction.

i dont see the nets getting siakam unless they decide they are willing to move claxton (which i wouldnt do). if the price was reasonable or if masai liked what the nets have the deal would have been done at the deadline.

there's not a ton out there this summer and with so many lotto teams floating their picks for the few "stars" on the market (siakam, og) i just don't see the nets winning those bidding wars or having very many options. i think adding a few more glue players (like fvv/brown/etc) and hoping bridges/clax/cj can continue building on last year is the path. and if by some good luck simmons can come back anywhere close to healthy they will take a step forward and still have a ton of future picks to deal from.

Yup yup.

Unless Marks goes for Lillard, Trae Young or KAT, I don’t think we’ll be in play for any of the other big names.

I think it’s a lot more likely he moves up in the draft and pulls off a FVV S&T for something like Dinwiddie and Cam Thomas and a couple 2nd’s in FA.

Tbh, FVV would be a pretty big pickup, I’d compare it to Brunson to the Knicks, or Lowry to Toronto years back.

totally agree. FVV is a legit two way starter on a playoff roster so that would give them 4 such players.

add a lotto pick, bruce brown, and let ben simmons compete for the the 5th spot and you've got a good rotation that's all in the same age bracket and tons of future capital to add the next dominant scorer that becomes available.

if they dont get brown i wonder if marks will have interest in any of the miami guys. i think the culture he's aspiring to blend would obviously fit well with them.

[Marvin Martian]

Yeah, most definitely these hirings more about development and has nothing to do with competing right now.

I need to start practicing my JV trashing speeches.

Ben posting a lot of work out stuff. His probation start this season. If he fails, need to use his expiring as salary filler for someone who's available. If he gets back to his borderline all star level, that's when and where things can get very intriguing/interesting.

100% Ben is the biggest wildcard we have that could get us back into competing in the east if he gets back to philly level. God for bid if he took another turn like deciding to shoot right handed and got avg jumpshot man we talkin a top 10ish player. I think he will try his best to get atleast to philly level, just off the fact he seems to want to be part of the Nets.

The most important piece on the roster is Clax imo...he's the only one with perennial all star upside. He's a unicorn athletically for a center and has so much more to go offensively. With another step up I can easily see him being the best player on the team next year.

What has Claxton done to suggest that he won't be another Clint Capela? He is a good defender, but a mediocre rebounder who doesn't have the size to guard Embiid. Furthermore, he is a bad ft shooter, has no jumpshot, and not a playmaker. If he is the best player on the team next year, then I think that says more about the team than it does about Clax.

I want to be optimistic about him, but I cannot remember a player who has developed a jumper while shooting at bad as Clax does from the ft line. Modern day NBA offenses require big men that do much more what Clax does offensively. That is why he was benched in the playoffs

[TheNetsFan]

100% Ben is the biggest wildcard we have that could get us back into competing in the east if he gets back to philly level. God for bid if he took another turn like deciding to shoot right handed and got avg jumpshot man we talkin a top 10ish player. I think he will try his best to get atleast to philly level, just off the fact he seems to want to be part of the Nets.

The most important piece on the roster is Clax imo...he's the only one with perennial all star upside. He's a unicorn athletically for a center and has so much more to go offensively. With another step up I can easily see him being the best player on the team next year.

What has Claxton done to suggest that he won't be another Clint Capela? He is a good defender, but a mediocre rebounder who doesn't have the size to guard Embiid. Furthermore, he is a bad ft shooter, has no jumpshot, and not a playmaker. If he is the best player on the team next year, then I think that says more about the team than it does about Clax.

I want to be optimistic about him, but I cannot remember a player who has developed a jumper while shooting at bad as Clax does from the ft line. Modern day NBA offenses require big men that do much more what Clax does offensively. That is why he was benched in the playoffs

Claxton was 12th in total rebounds and 16th in rebounds per game this season. I would not consider him a mediocre rebounder. We're poor as a team because we switch everything and players leak out way too soon.

[Tha King]

The most important piece on the roster is Clax imo...he's the only one with perennial all star upside. He's a unicorn athletically for a center and has so much more to go offensively. With another step up I can easily see him being the best player on the team next year.

What has Claxton done to suggest that he won't be another Clint Capela? He is a good defender, but a mediocre rebounder who doesn't have the size to guard Embiid. Furthermore, he is a bad ft shooter, has no jumpshot, and not a playmaker. If he is the best player on the team next year, then I think that says more about the team than it does about Clax.

I want to be optimistic about him, but I cannot remember a player who has developed a jumper while shooting at bad as Clax does from the ft line. Modern day NBA offenses require big men that do much more what Clax does offensively. That is why he was benched in the playoffs

Claxton was 12th in total rebounds and 16th in rebounds per game this season. I would not consider him a mediocre rebounder. We're poor as a team because we switch everything and players leak out way too soon.

also had a Rebound% right there with Allen and Embiid.

In terms of the Capela comparison, not sure how they are similar? Both are limited shooting wise but Capela never showcased the on ball ability Claxton has (offensively and defensively). Not even trying to hype up Claxton beyond anything that isn't there. In the draft his offensive potential was right there with defense. He was a point forward for Georgia. Countless times this year he made plays off the dribble and in transition that stand out. You don't see that from the usual rim runners.

Again not really trying to just hype up a player. I want the Nets to be as good as possible and when I look at this roster the only interesting players are Claxton and Bridges and I think Claxton is the more talented of the two. With Bridges I also think his trade value now might be higher than his actual level as a player.

[GTR11]

100% Ben is the biggest wildcard we have that could get us back into competing in the east if he gets back to philly level. God for bid if he took another turn like deciding to shoot right handed and got avg jumpshot man we talkin a top 10ish player. I think he will try his best to get atleast to philly level, just off the fact he seems to want to be part of the Nets.

The most important piece on the roster is Clax imo...he's the only one with perennial all star upside. He's a unicorn athletically for a center and has so much more to go offensively. With another step up I can easily see him being the best player on the team next year.

What has Claxton done to suggest that he won't be another Clint Capela? He is a good defender, but a mediocre rebounder who doesn't have the size to guard Embiid. Furthermore, he is a bad ft shooter, has no jumpshot, and not a playmaker. If he is the best player on the team next year, then I think that says more about the team than it does about Clax.

I want to be optimistic about him, but I cannot remember a player who has developed a jumper while shooting at bad as Clax does from the ft line. Modern day NBA offenses require big men that do much more what Clax does offensively. That is why he was benched in the playoffs

Makes me wonder what have you watched two previous years before past. Won't even bother to ask you about his D.League or college time.

Problem with Nic has always been durability/availability. Imo that question remains valid until he showcase another healthy season. I won't even bother question his skills. Any rim running bum like Capela can't even hold Nic's towel on O. Better question will be why Marks/Tsai thought it's OK to hire Steve Trash who just watched games court side.

Nic playing on prove it bargain contract. Whether people agree or not, Nic will get 20m+ contract if he remains healthy next season.