2017 Nets Offseason Thread III

[DarkXaero]

Because when you say he isn't a two-way player you're implying that he's either inept on offense like Andre Roberson or Thabo Sefolosha or that he's a complete defensive liability like Kyle Korver or Isaiah Thomas.

KCP is no where close to either of those extremes.

That's not at all what it means. A two-way player has to be good on both ends of the floor. KCP has yet to prove that he can an efficient offensive player.

So by that terminology, Jimmy Butler wasn't a two way player until he got paid because his offensive numbers were identical to KCP before his first payday. I think folks here get a little carried away efficiency stats. It's not the be all end all for all players.

Plus, it's disingenuous to ignore his playoff performance because it was the prime example of very solid two way basketball. They probably don't keep it competitive against Cleveland if it wasn't for his D on Irving in 4 games.


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What? Jimmy Butler was averaging 20/6/3 on high efficiency before he got his big contract. I'm not talking about KCP's potential here. I'm talking about what he is right now and has been over his career. The guy has low bball iq on offense, takes bad shots, he's a streaky shooter, and mediocre as a playmaker.

[ghostpotato]

Who says no to this? http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7utkhrt

(obviously there would also be some draft picks changing hands to balance things out, with Brooklyn maybe getting a future 1st from Houston or Portland for facilitating cap room?)

I was thinking something like this too. I have no interest in RA, but I think Portland would if it meant dumping the contracts of the RFA they signed last year.

If you can jump into a deal and essentially trade Nicholson for Crabbe and a First that's lit. If you trade Nicholson for Crabbe, Crabbe is only adding 12M to the payroll (2/3 of his contract)

Crabbe has a 15% trade kicker. It's still a good trade for us though.

[NyCeEvO]

I don't really care if we don't get any good free agents in 2018. I still want to be in position to get a high lottery pick in 2019.

That plan would be ruined if we sign someone and become a 40 win team.

Marks sees the long term game. Not trying to be the next Orlando Magic.

Since the Magic traded Dwight Howard, their yearly records have been:
2012-13: 20-62 (#2 overall pick: Victor Oladipo)
2013-14: 23-59 (#4, #12 overall picks: Aaron Gordon, Dario Saric)
2014-15: 25-57 (#5 overall pick: Mario Hezonja)
2015-16: 35-47 (#11 overall pick: Domantas Sabonis)
2016-17: 29-53 (#6 overall pick: Jonathan Isaac)

They are the perfect example of a team that has had a bad record (equivalent to a tank) despite signing quality players over the years. They have been in a prime position to draft some of the best players available and yet they've remained pretty bad.

If anything, I think ORL is a case study of how things can still be bad when you have great pick selection despite signing some quality players. Having the worst record only gives you a 25% chance of drafting the #1. The Magic have had a top 6 pick four out of the last 5 seasons.

IMO, this just supports Prok's idea that intentional tanking is bad. The Magic have had tanking records despite not trying to tank and yet they're still searching for answers.

[Ror1997]

Who says no to this? http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7utkhrt

(obviously there would also be some draft picks changing hands to balance things out, with Brooklyn maybe getting a future 1st from Houston or Portland for facilitating cap room?)

I was thinking something like this too. I have no interest in RA, but I think Portland would if it meant dumping the contracts of the RFA they signed last year.

If you can jump into a deal and essentially trade Nicholson for Crabbe and a First that's lit. If you trade Nicholson for Crabbe, Crabbe is only adding 12M to the payroll (2/3 of his contract)

I see something like this brewing, but man, the NYK are getting an ugly pupu platter. The associated draft picks and rookies are key.

Yeah, one immediate substitution that came to mind was sending the Knicks Harkless instead of Davis. But that guts the Blazers wing rotation. That would mean somebody has to send them something. We could move Harris or Skil, but They would potentially need to take Ariza from houston. Idk. 4 teams trades are a real **** show. They usually fall apart.

[Netaman]

Who says no to this? http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7utkhrt

(obviously there would also be some draft picks changing hands to balance things out, with Brooklyn maybe getting a future 1st from Houston or Portland for facilitating cap room?)

I was thinking something like this too. I have no interest in RA, but I think Portland would if it meant dumping the contracts of the RFA they signed last year.

If you can jump into a deal and essentially trade Nicholson for Crabbe and a First that's lit. If you trade Nicholson for Crabbe, Crabbe is only adding 12M to the payroll (2/3 of his contract)

I see something like this brewing, but man, the NYK are getting an ugly pupu platter. The associated draft picks and rookies are key.

Yeah I think there's definitely some swappability with what the Knicks get. There were rumors they could be interested in Harkless at one point, probably makes more sense than Leonard. Also they should probably get back a younger player that's more than just filler from the Rockets (or future picks). I tried to split the difference between expirings and contracts with 2+ years left since they do have the leverage of Carmelo's ETO next year.

[NyCeEvO]

Nets manage to dodge a toxic bullet with KCP, him and rich paul can suck a fat one. Now Nets can focus on the real treat, the 2018 rfa class. Or just take a bunch of bad contracts for draft picks so they can reload in 2019 draft all at once.

Is the 2018 RFA class really a treat?

Outside of Jabari Parker (who I actually like) who do the Nets even have a shot at getting? Maybe Aaron Gordon?

Wiggins, Embiid, and Nurkic are surely getting the max from their respective teams.

Outside of those guys, Dante Exum and Norman Powell are the only other semi-notable RFAs. I wouldn't want to make a big investment in either unless they were going to replace Lin as the starting PG, but the former is injury prone and the latter isn't a PG.

I don't see this elite class of RFAs that gettable RFAs. I'd like Parker or Gordon but trading for them would be much better than fighting other teams, especially their own, for them.

Perhaps we look at it differently but case in point, I too don't find next year's class both realistic and dreamy...

All the hot commodities/must haves are RFA and surely be matched/extended... "big names" for the most part/all are on the decline.

there's few, maybe 2 or 3 that "could" trade/switch jerseys but IMO aren't the game changers we need anyways....

Basically, we have to hope there's an other team that does a Philly like deal of trading their soon-to-be RFA for something not too expensive.

I don't know if MIL wants to gamble on Parker extension given his injury history but if they don't, I wonder if they would consider a Parker for RHJ deal.

He fits their scheme of having athletic defenders, he'd cost less to retain than Parker unless he explodes into a much better player (which would still work in their favor), and he doesn't have the injury history.

The Nets would receive a young scoring PF that would plug a major hole on the team and giving him a big extension wouldn't wreck our ascension to the top like it could for Milwaukee who is on the rise right now and probably don't want anything to impede them from being flexible enough to get out of a bad deal.

[Vae Victus]

Naw, forget Crabbe.

I used to be a HUGE Crabbe cheerleader, trade kicker and all, but with the DLo trade and especially now with the Carroll trade, theres absolutely no reason to trade for him now short of POR eating Nicholson and forking over 2 1st round picks. Got our starting SG in DLo and starting SF in Carroll, with Levert waiting in the wings. If Crabbe is as limited to what Prok keeps whining about then Crabbe turns into a terrible contract coming off the bench jsut to shoot 3s at 20 mil a year. No point taking that risk now, now that the roster's wing spots are amply filled, unless POR pays out huge.

If we're gonna do a salary dump relief trade with POR, it'll be for Leonard, after the team whiffs on JaMychal Green. Even then though i'm not very impressed by Leonard and would try to foist a Leonard + 1st for Nicholson type of deal, which natural POR will decline as they're only saving about 4 mil a year on that deal, when im sure they want immediate relief.

Just go get that stretch 4 who can defend. I dunno why people arent higher on JaMychal (mostly at Prok cuz all he does is shred the guy, just like how he did with Lin last year), he's not a young kid, but he can be an excellent stopgap for a coupla years to let the motion offense run at full steam. The fact that he can defend, to me, is the main reason i'm interested. Hell, who's to say he's done developing and the best part is at this point he likely can be had for dirt cheap with so little interest around him!

[NyCeEvO]

Not to argue with you but the Lakers have signed literally 1 free agent to a 1 year contract this off-season. And the only reason KCP signed a 1 year contract was he was so late to the unrestricted FA market, if he was unrestricted instead of restricted as the start of the off-season no way he only signs for 1 year.

I was really referring to the mindset of only going after players who have only one more year left on their contracts.

They got Brook, have signed KCP, and could be going after Rondo. Those are good vets who have real talent that can help them win some games now, mentor the young guys, and preserve cap space for next year.

Its a good strategy buts its only going to work if youre the Lakers.

I don't think we can draw free agents the way the Lakers can. The Nets do not have the same appeal as living in LA, playing for Magic, and being part of a big fan base.

I can see that. Living in LA and being a Laker at any point of one's career are things that would attract players.

I don't think playing for Magic is that big of a deal though. A lot of these players weren't even born when Magic retired. MJ doesn't get any attraction from players despite being the GOAT. I think it might only matter for LA people since Magic actually had an impact on the livelihoods of those residing there during the 80s and early 90s.

[CalamityX12]

Is the 2018 RFA class really a treat?

Outside of Jabari Parker (who I actually like) who do the Nets even have a shot at getting? Maybe Aaron Gordon?

Wiggins, Embiid, and Nurkic are surely getting the max from their respective teams.

Outside of those guys, Dante Exum and Norman Powell are the only other semi-notable RFAs. I wouldn't want to make a big investment in either unless they were going to replace Lin as the starting PG, but the former is injury prone and the latter isn't a PG.

I don't see this elite class of RFAs that gettable RFAs. I'd like Parker or Gordon but trading for them would be much better than fighting other teams, especially their own, for them.

Perhaps we look at it differently but case in point, I too don't find next year's class both realistic and dreamy...

All the hot commodities/must haves are RFA and surely be matched/extended... "big names" for the most part/all are on the decline.

there's few, maybe 2 or 3 that "could" trade/switch jerseys but IMO aren't the game changers we need anyways....

Basically, we have to hope there's an other team that does a Philly like deal of trading their soon-to-be RFA for something not too expensive.

I don't know if MIL wants to gamble on Parker extension given his injury history but if they don't, I wonder if they would consider a Parker for RHJ deal.

He fits their scheme of having athletic defenders, he'd cost less to retain than Parker unless he explodes into a much better player (which would still work in their favor), and he doesn't have the injury history.

The Nets would receive a young scoring PF that would plug a major hole on the team and giving him a big extension wouldn't wreck our ascension to the top like it could for Milwaukee who is on the rise right now and probably don't want anything to impede them from being flexible enough to get out of a bad deal.

the downside of Parker would be health.... cuz if healthy, MIL wouldn't consider a trade with Jabari to begin with.

[Netaman]

Ok, here's a better one - http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ybanlpdo

In addition to the players there are 2 draft picks:
Nets get a 1st from Portland (since they're using their cap space in a deal saving Portland roughly $13M this year and $10M the next 2 years)
Knicks get a draft pick from Houston since they are getting Melo and getting out of Anderson's contract (probably a future 1st)

Why the Knicks do it - $3M in immediate cap savings, get Harkless who is a decent piece, Glen Davis' expiring, and a future first. That's a good return for a toxic Melo, even though they have to take on Nicholson.

Why Portland does it - they save a lot of money and break their log jam of overpaid wings. They have to give up a 1st round pick to do so, but it was rumored they were considering that around the draft so it's not totally outside of reality. Anderson and Kilpatrick will both be contributors, and they get out from under the Crabbe contract despite his offseason surgery.

Houston obviously gets Melo without giving up that much. In fact if there's 1 team in this deal underpaying it's probably Houston, who may need to kick in additional picks to the Knicks or Portland.

And the Nets obviously take a calculated risk on post-surgery Allen Crabbe (at a discount when factoring in Nicholson) and a future pick.

[NyCeEvO]

Perhaps we look at it differently but case in point, I too don't find next year's class both realistic and dreamy...

All the hot commodities/must haves are RFA and surely be matched/extended... "big names" for the most part/all are on the decline.

there's few, maybe 2 or 3 that "could" trade/switch jerseys but IMO aren't the game changers we need anyways....

Basically, we have to hope there's an other team that does a Philly like deal of trading their soon-to-be RFA for something not too expensive.

I don't know if MIL wants to gamble on Parker extension given his injury history but if they don't, I wonder if they would consider a Parker for RHJ deal.

He fits their scheme of having athletic defenders, he'd cost less to retain than Parker unless he explodes into a much better player (which would still work in their favor), and he doesn't have the injury history.

The Nets would receive a young scoring PF that would plug a major hole on the team and giving him a big extension wouldn't wreck our ascension to the top like it could for Milwaukee who is on the rise right now and probably don't want anything to impede them from being flexible enough to get out of a bad deal.

the downside of Parker would be health.... cuz if healthy, MIL wouldn't consider a trade with Jabari to begin with.

Yeah, I know but these are the kinds of risks the Nets have to seriously consider while other teams won't feel compelled to do the same.

If there's no risk, we end up with nothing. Teams aren't going to trade away good prospects unless there is something wrong (e.g. health, character, younger replacement player waiting in the wings).

[Netaman]

Naw, forget Crabbe.

I used to be a HUGE Crabbe cheerleader, trade kicker and all, but with the DLo trade and especially now with the Carroll trade, theres absolutely no reason to trade for him now short of POR eating Nicholson and forking over 2 1st round picks. Got our starting SG in DLo and starting SF in Carroll, with Levert waiting in the wings. If Crabbe is as limited to what Prok keeps whining about then Crabbe turns into a terrible contract coming off the bench jsut to shoot 3s at 20 mil a year. No point taking that risk now, now that the roster's wing spots are amply filled, unless POR pays out huge.

This team still needs shooting, and Crabbe's better than everyone else we went after (many at higher prices) except Reddick. He's also got enough length with his 7 foot wingspan to play SF. Both he and Carroll have some health questions, so I don't think there's any issue going into training camp with the 2 of them (and possibly Levert) competing for the starting 3. More than enough options to have Crabbe play some backup minutes at the 2 or Carroll find minutes as a stretch 4. If we're factoring in the dump of Nicholson, Crabbe's salary isn't even that hard to swallow. All of that said with the caveat being O'Malley's confidence that his foot is going to be fine going forward.

[Mkdaman1818]

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[Paradise]

That's not at all what it means. A two-way player has to be good on both ends of the floor. KCP has yet to prove that he can an efficient offensive player.

So by that terminology, Jimmy Butler wasn't a two way player until he got paid because his offensive numbers were identical to KCP before his first payday. I think folks here get a little carried away efficiency stats. It's not the be all end all for all players.

Plus, it's disingenuous to ignore his playoff performance because it was the prime example of very solid two way basketball. They probably don't keep it competitive against Cleveland if it wasn't for his D on Irving in 4 games.


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What? Jimmy Butler was averaging 20/6/3 on high efficiency before he got his big contract. I'm not talking about KCP's potential here. I'm talking about what he is right now and has been over his career. The guy has low bball iq on offense, takes bad shots, he's a streaky shooter, and mediocre as a playmaker.

Butler was not averaging 20/6/3 until his 4th year (24). His efficiency was inconsistent until turning 25.



I'm not mad we passed on him. Rich Paul wanted too much for him and we need to maintain flexibility regardless but signing KCP factors into his upside in THIS offense. What he did for Detroit right now means what exactly? Their team had a bunch of malcontents and for his flaws, KCP emerged as the one who was consistently good and working on that team. His Ast'd shot numbers show a disparity which is a clear sign of how awful Reggie Jackson was and still is.



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[DarkXaero]

So by that terminology, Jimmy Butler wasn't a two way player until he got paid because his offensive numbers were identical to KCP before his first payday. I think folks here get a little carried away efficiency stats. It's not the be all end all for all players.

Plus, it's disingenuous to ignore his playoff performance because it was the prime example of very solid two way basketball. They probably don't keep it competitive against Cleveland if it wasn't for his D on Irving in 4 games.


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What? Jimmy Butler was averaging 20/6/3 on high efficiency before he got his big contract. I'm not talking about KCP's potential here. I'm talking about what he is right now and has been over his career. The guy has low bball iq on offense, takes bad shots, he's a streaky shooter, and mediocre as a playmaker.

Butler was not averaging 20/6/3 until his 4th year (24). His efficiency was inconsistent until turning 25.




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Yea, and he signed his big deal on July 2015. You said that he wasn't a two way player until he got paid, which isn't true. Unlike KCP, he actually earned his big contract.

[Vae Victus]

Teams can always use more shooting, but Crabbe at 20 mil (after his trade kicker kicks in) and declining defense (according to advanced stats) is an unneeded gamble at this point. Team has Joe Harris to provide shooting, sure he's not as good, but he only costs the vet min.

Team has Lin (shooting 3s at high volume), DLo (ditto to Lin except he'll get more c&s and less dribble then shoot 3s), Carroll (should rebound in efficiency), SKil, Dimwiddie, Harris, and i dont count Levert or Whitehead cuz theyre just not there yet in outside shooting. The team has plenty of 3pt shooting at the wing, what it desperate needs is 3pt shooting from the bigs. Thats why Marks was willing to overpay for OPJ, he could give a good chunk of mins at the 4 and that floor can get mega spaced out. Crabbe at this point in time is just not needed, especially at his pricetag over the next 3 years.

Team will go after JaMychal Green on a 2+1 or go bargain bin 1 years for Ilyasova or Mirotic to get that needed stretch 4.

Or Booker/RHJ develop a 3pt shot, now that would be ideal.

[Keith Van Horn]

If it's HOU-NYK-BKN-POR in this 4 team deal...

I'll take Crabbe, as long as

A) We can receive a POR or NYK 1st rounder as part of the deal (preferably 2019 or 2020)
B) We can move Nicholson as well (I love the contract dumping idea, but man... having Moz, Carroll, Crabbe, Nicholson, and Deron still on the books is a damn lot of money there)

I think moving Nicholson and taking Crabbe will still leave us in a good spot to give Russell good money when he's up... but I'll defer to Prok and his spreadsheet on this one.

[Paradise]

What? Jimmy Butler was averaging 20/6/3 on high efficiency before he got his big contract. I'm not talking about KCP's potential here. I'm talking about what he is right now and has been over his career. The guy has low bball iq on offense, takes bad shots, he's a streaky shooter, and mediocre as a playmaker.

Butler was not averaging 20/6/3 until his 4th year (24). His efficiency was inconsistent until turning 25.




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Yea, and he signed his big deal on July 2015, which is what you originally brought up. Unlike KCP, he actually earned his big contract.

Who's to say he won't earn his contract this season? I mean that's what people do when they are 23-24 come off their rookie scale deals.


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[DarkXaero]

Butler was not averaging 20/6/3 until his 4th year (24). His efficiency was inconsistent until turning 25.




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Yea, and he signed his big deal on July 2015, which is what you originally brought up. Unlike KCP, he actually earned his big contract.

Who's to say he won't earn his contract this season? I mean that's what people do when they are 23-24 come off their rookie scale deals.


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If KCP has a big year, then he'll be an option for us again next summer. He's on a 1 year deal, Lakers are unlikely to retain him unless they don't get any big FAs. We'll still have plenty of cap space next summer, at least as it stands right now.

[NyCeEvO]

Ok, here's a better one - http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ybanlpdo

In addition to the players there are 2 draft picks:
Nets get a 1st from Portland (since they're using their cap space in a deal saving Portland roughly $13M this year and $10M the next 2 years)
Knicks get a draft pick from Houston since they are getting Melo and getting out of Anderson's contract (probably a future 1st)

Why the Knicks do it - $3M in immediate cap savings, get Harkless who is a decent piece, Glen Davis' expiring, and a future first. That's a good return for a toxic Melo, even though they have to take on Nicholson.

Why Portland does it - they save a lot of money and break their log jam of overpaid wings. They have to give up a 1st round pick to do so, but it was rumored they were considering that around the draft so it's not totally outside of reality. Anderson and Kilpatrick will both be contributors, and they get out from under the Crabbe contract despite his offseason surgery.

Houston obviously gets Melo without giving up that much. In fact if there's 1 team in this deal underpaying it's probably Houston, who may need to kick in additional picks to the Knicks or Portland.

And the Nets obviously take a calculated risk on post-surgery Allen Crabbe (at a discount when factoring in Nicholson) and a future pick.

If Ryan Anderson is going from Houston to Portland, the Blazers deserve two end of 1st round picks. The problem is that HOU's 2018 1st rd pick is already going to Atlanta; therefore, they can't trade their 2019 pick. Maybe Houston would be ok giving away their 2019 and 2021 1st round picks considering that they have Harden locked up through 2023 and should win 50+ games for a while.

I don't want Crabbe at all. You can find shooters for much cheaper than what it costs to take him on. KCP at least gives you defense and is a capable 3pt shooter. If I'm taking on a player for 3 years at $20mil per season, I'd like for them to be skilled at more than just one thing.