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The Official Lin Net Thread

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yosemiteben
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Re: RE: Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#761 » by yosemiteben » Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:31 pm

reelsgm wrote:4. 6th man point guard (85 gms) who led 11 regular season comeback wins from deep holes of 10pt-23pts which starters had dug.

I've made it a point not to come on here and talk about Lin at all because I don't see the point, but I've seen you make this point a few times and think it's interesting. You seem to talk about these 11 regular season games a lot, but here are some dates with box scores from last season that you also might consider:

11/13/15
12/2/15
12/16/15
1/10/16
1/22/16
1/27/16
2/5/16
2/8/16
2/19/16
2/26/16
3/14/16
3/16/16
3/25/16
4/10/16

Lin had some great games for us, but he also disappeared and had some terrible games where he himself dug a hole for us to recover from. No one on our board disputes that he played extremely well at times. Picking a handful of games and trying to build an argument about how a player impacted the team cuts both ways.
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Re: RE: Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#762 » by Roy Tarpley » Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:45 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
reelsgm wrote:4. 6th man point guard (85 gms) who led 11 regular season comeback wins from deep holes of 10pt-23pts which starters had dug.

I've made it a point not to come on here and talk about Lin at all because I don't see the point, but I've seen you make this point a few times and think it's interesting. You seem to talk about these 11 regular season games a lot, but here are some dates with box scores from last season that you also might consider:

11/13/15
12/2/15
12/16/15
1/10/16
1/22/16
1/27/16
2/5/16
2/8/16
2/19/16
2/26/16
3/14/16
3/16/16
3/25/16
4/10/16

Lin had some great games for us, but he also disappeared and had some terrible games where he himself dug a hole for us to recover from. No one on our board disputes that he played extremely well at times. Picking a handful of games and trying to build an argument about how a player impacted the team cuts both ways.


Yeah, Lin had a pretty atrocious stretch there in January and February, no doubt about it. I think people were wondering at that point what had happened to Lin's jumper. Anyways, I'm excited for Lin and the Nets' upcoming season. And good luck to the Hornets and a healthy MKG season.
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Re: RE: Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#763 » by reelsgm » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:22 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
reelsgm wrote:4. 6th man point guard (85 gms) who led 11 regular season comeback wins from deep holes of 10pt-23pts which starters had dug.

I've made it a point not to come on here and talk about Lin at all because I don't see the point, but I've seen you make this point a few times and think it's interesting. You seem to talk about these 11 regular season games a lot, but here are some dates with box scores from last season that you also might consider:

11/13/15
12/2/15
12/16/15
1/10/16
1/22/16
1/27/16
2/5/16
2/8/16
2/19/16
2/26/16
3/14/16
3/16/16
3/25/16
4/10/16

Lin had some great games for us, but he also disappeared and had some terrible games where he himself dug a hole for us to recover from. No one on our board disputes that he played extremely well at times. Picking a handful of games and trying to build an argument about how a player impacted the team cuts both ways.

It isn't worth revisiting and rebutting each game in it's correct context.

Fact is Lin was critical in big games and every CHA win against league elites: BOS, SAS, TOR, CLE, playoff MIA while Hornets starters were fine at pounding mediocre teams where Lin's delivery of less-than-spectacular performances made little difference to outcome. If you're implying Lin's "poor play" as a bench scrub cost CHA a loss, you'll have to specify that game(s).

Another fact, the previous season under Gary Neal and Brian Roberts bench there was just 1 gm where the bench led a comeback win from starters double-digit hole vs. Lin's 11 gms.

At the end-of-the day, CHA get their wish - MKG back and team intact; all else - water-under-the-bridge. Go out and prove Lin had little impact on CHA wins by winning games as will the Nets.

Intuition is that by late October we'll get a pretty good picture whether Hornets live up to last seasons promise and whether Nets outperform expectations.
"I don't like the word REBUILD... I know Kenny and everyone at some point that word has floated around... I want it to happen NOW" - JLIN
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Re: RE: Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#764 » by Mystical Apples » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:58 pm

reelsgm wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
reelsgm wrote:4. 6th man point guard (85 gms) who led 11 regular season comeback wins from deep holes of 10pt-23pts which starters had dug.

No one on our board disputes that he played extremely well at times. Picking a handful of games and trying to build an argument about how a player impacted the team cuts both ways.


It isn't worth revisiting and rebutting each game in it's correct context.


Freud, meet banana peel.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#765 » by spaceballer » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:01 pm



JLin teaching kids how to be cool in school :lol: This was during a Boxfish presentation during his trip to China. Boxfish is the education app he's promoting to reform the school system in China for teaching English.
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Re: RE: Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#766 » by KM6 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:28 pm

Mystical Apples wrote:
reelsgm wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:No one on our board disputes that he played extremely well at times. Picking a handful of games and trying to build an argument about how a player impacted the team cuts both ways.


It isn't worth revisiting and rebutting each game in it's correct context.


Freud, meet banana peel.


After next season we will know how good Lin or Batum is, and if MKG is truly an impact player or a forever injury list guy.

Actual W/L records beats a thousand rounds of arguments.
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Re: RE: Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#767 » by bws94 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:34 pm

KM6 wrote:
Mystical Apples wrote:
reelsgm wrote:
It isn't worth revisiting and rebutting each game in it's correct context.


Freud, meet banana peel.


After next season we will know how good Lin or Batum is, and if MKG is truly an impact player or a forever injury list guy.

Actual W/L records beats a thousand rounds of arguments.



MKG is an impact player. No doubt. When healthy. I think we already know how good Batum and Lin are when used to their strengths. Batum still has most of the same targets he worked with so well last year, Lin has a new system and team to adjust to.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#768 » by spaceballer » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:01 pm

JLin Foundation and Team Esface at EPA (East Palo Alto) Hoop Fest

Spoiler:


Image
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Image

Image

Read on Twitter


For motivation during his Harvard years, his desktop image was a picture of the Stanford coach who didn't want him, till he stopped needing the crutch of playing out of anger. :lol:

He did a similar event last year with Team Esface in East Palo Alto, but in Hornets colors, instead of the black and white Nets colors he's sporting nowadays.

Spoiler:
Read on Twitter
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#769 » by TTNN » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:31 am

Mystical Apples wrote:Was surprised to see negative comments about Zeller, Kemba, and Batum. Anyways, visuals can help identify players who do the heavy lifting and do so efficiently.

x-axis = Percentage of total FGA's against starting units
y-axis = eFG% against starters.

Blue = Players in the top right quadrant with top 50 combined scoring/playmaking usages
Green = Hornets who made the rotation during the 2015-16 season
Blue + Green = Kemba and Nic

* Top right is dominated by low usage centers.
* Lopez is definitely a lifter and so was Jack before the injury. FYI Young was immediately above Lopez, sans usage expectations.

Image
http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/



This is cool data, very impressive. However though, this had a lot to do with player's role in the team. It is not surprising that a start have much higher percent of FGA against starters, and a bench player play simply less min against opponents starter, which results in less % of FGA against starters. And even player like Lin, who starts when injury happens, or as a 6th man, he got some play min to play with starters, against opponent starters. But when he was on the floor together with Kemba and Batum, he is 4th or 5th option on the floor, thus he would have less FGA compare to when he was playing with bench.

So, if you consider how high of their percentage of FGA was against starters as how much weight they carry the team, then PJ carried more than Lin, which just don't make sense.

If the argument goes to it is easier to score against opponents bench vs opponents starters, then we all know Lin had way better performance, FG% and 3FG% when he starts, than when he play off the bench.

Anyway, just an arguments, I like your stats and the way to present it too. Nice job.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#770 » by Paradise » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:45 pm

I think my personal benchmark for Lin would be equaling Deron's 2013 season. 18/6/3 on 57.5 TS%. Deron also shot 37% that year. Very all-star caliber.



Their numbers were comparable last season despite disparity in roles.

Lin at rim - 57%
Lin shooting 3s - 33%

Deron at rim - 57%
Deron shooting 3s - 34%



Lin getting his three point shot efficiency up will be the biggest key to turn him into a high level scorer.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#771 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:06 pm

Seems like a fair goal to set. I'd like at least 8 assists per game though.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#772 » by sidestep » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:29 am

sidestep wrote:
MysticalApples wrote:We both know how disingenuous it is to assign Q1 stats to starters, Q2 to bench players but that's exactly what you did. I mean, it's cute but without specific lineup combinations it serves no purpose other than to push canned narratives. In this case Starters = lackluster, Lin = fancy jazz hands.

Lineup data doesn't show game flows. There is not an easy at-a-glance way to show game flows for the season -- when and which units were responsible for creating deficits, when and which units staged comebacks, when and which units created leads. If you have a better way to show game flows, be my guest. The quarter splits do correlate strongly to the starter/bench rotations, and Clifford was very consistent with that for quarters 1-3. The starters played the majority of the 1st and 3rd quarters, Lin coming in at the end of the 1st, at the beginning of the 2nd, and at the end of the 3rd. The Hornets starters playing poorly in the 1st and 3rd quarters is a real thing, but maybe you didn't watch games with that in mind.
The point is the starters created many deficits that Lin's bench unit made up, and the bench even created leads for the starters. You can agree or disagree with that claim.

Actually, as it turns out, there is an easy at-a-glance way to see who played in which quarters, posted today by alexwainger on reddit. And the graph confirms what I said above in bold.

Image
link: http://alexwainger.github.io/NBASubstitutionPatterns/

The graph shows that the starters played the great majority of the 1st and 3rd quarters, with Kemba often playing the entirety of those stretches.

1st Q: +1.5 pts per 100 possessions
3rd Q: +0.6 pts per 100 possessions
With a net average barely above 0, there were indeed many deficits created by starter-dominant units in the 1st and 3rd quarters.

In contrast, the 2nd quarter, which opened with Lin, had a large bench presence. And the result was a top-tier NetRating of +5.3 points. And the 4th quarter also had a bench presence and closing lineups that differed from the starting lineups. NetRtg +6.9.

The margin of difference here is not some negligibly small blip; it's a huge 4 to 6 pt difference. On the low end, that's a team barely above .500 (+1.5 and +.6 NetReg); and on the high end, that's an utterly dominant team. Who is responsible for those lackluster quarters? Is it really PJ, as you've suggested before, who used few possessions? Or do the guys who used most of the possessions bear most of the responsibility?

You speak of 'canned narratives.' I'm waiting to hear one.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#773 » by Roy Tarpley » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:31 am

As a full-time starter, #3 option on the fast-paced, share-the-wealth 2012-13 Rockets, Lin averaged 13/6.
As a full-time starter, #1 option during the eight Melo-less games of Linsanity (2/6-2/20), Lin averaged 25/10.
As a full-time starter, #2 option on what I think will be a fast-paced Nets team, I think Lin will average 18/8.

To be honest, anything less than 17/7 will be a disappointment.

16/6 - disappointing (Jarrett Jack averaged 13/7)
17/7 - decent
18/8 - good
19/9 - great
20/10 - excellent
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#774 » by Mystical Apples » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:13 am

sidestep wrote:
sidestep wrote:
MysticalApples wrote:We both know how disingenuous it is to assign Q1 stats to starters, Q2 to bench players but that's exactly what you did. I mean, it's cute but without specific lineup combinations it serves no purpose other than to push canned narratives. In this case Starters = lackluster, Lin = fancy jazz hands.
The quarter splits do correlate strongly to the starter/bench rotations, and Clifford was very consistent with that for quarters 1-3. The starters played the majority of the 1st and 3rd quarters, Lin coming in at the end of the 1st, at the beginning of the 2nd, and at the end of the 3rd.[/b] The Hornets starters playing poorly in the 1st and 3rd.

The graph shows that the starters played the great majority of the 1st and 3rd quarters, with Kemba often playing the entirety of those stretches.

1st Q: +1.5 pts per 100 possessions
3rd Q: +0.6 pts per 100 possessions
With a net average barely above 0, there were indeed many deficits created by starter-dominant units in the 1st and 3rd quarters.


Continuing to hammer this point is an interesting choice. It's not breaking news that coaches sub around 5-6 minutes and rarely play benches without a starter, oftentimes 2. The entire premise of assigning Quarter results to starters v. benches is just.....unnecessarily sloppy and opaque.

Data could mean Lin was super duper amazing, or that CHA's overall bench was great, or Clifford was brilliant for letting Kemba and Nic exploit inferior 2nd units. I mean, it's easier to find answers without the extrapolation gymnastics.

The thing is I like Lin but also have a healthy appreciation for context. Hopped on here to address a pattern of revisionism which devolved into - "surprisingly" - bolstering 1 persons accomplishments by diminishing the work of others.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#775 » by reelsgm » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:16 am

Mystical Apples wrote:Hopped on here to address a pattern of revisionism which devolved into - "surprisingly" - bolstering 1 persons accomplishments by diminishing the work of others.


Revisionism? Who's revising what? You seem to assume that whatever you had previously settled was the "truth" and it's being revised by others. Some of us don't see your absolute "truth" in your argument or data.

Team sport thus no single player is the sole factor in wins but there is a reason that as bench leader, Lin generated 1000% more come-from-behind Wins of Starters' double-digit holes over & above GNeal/BRob, and it's mostly irrelevent the "HOW" part. Because the fact remains, whether Lin was super duper or he motivated teammates to play great or some combination -- Lin's leadership filled 11 holes vs. Neal/BRob's 1 hole filled for-the-Win.

It's your perogative to say "bench personnel were different", but an order of magnitude difference in the ability of two average benches to pick up after starters' debacles -- is NOT some minor esoteric difference. "Something" statistically significant was occurring to generate such a wide disparity and perhaps you have the simple answer.

I don't, but it's my opinion that "something" likely was the same "something" that allowed CHA to play as a team to defeat Spurs, Cavs, Raptors, Celtics and the playoff Heat -- each of which were statistical anomalies for Hornets in historic ways.

Again, all of this banter is academic, here's hoping that we all save-face this season and CHA gets another 48 Wins plus Nets make the playoffs. Personally I believe only one of those will happen.
"I don't like the word REBUILD... I know Kenny and everyone at some point that word has floated around... I want it to happen NOW" - JLIN
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#776 » by sidestep » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:51 am

@MysticalApples, you evaded my question by cutting it out of the quote. So I ask you again: Who is responsible for those lackluster quarters?
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#777 » by Mystical Apples » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:28 am

sidestep wrote:@MysticalApples, you evaded my question by cutting it out of the quote. So I ask you again: Who is responsible for those lackluster quarters?


It was a word salad of unimportant noise. CHA's starters led CHA's bench in net ratings for the year. This isn't complicated.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#778 » by Mystical Apples » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:52 am

Jeremy Lin's 2015-16 Net Rating splits by team. For prosperity, of course.

SRS rating = the good teams

Image
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#779 » by sidestep » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:53 am

Mystical Apples wrote:
sidestep wrote:@MysticalApples, you evaded my question by cutting it out of the quote. So I ask you again: Who is responsible for those lackluster quarters?

It was a word salad of unimportant noise. CHA's starters led CHA's bench in net ratings for the year. This isn't complicated.

So we won't that conversation. Fine by me.

I'll say this though: I've spent a lot of time on the Hornets board and I've been respectful to others, including you, and ppl have been respectful to me. I don't like Kemba as a player (classy guy, but don't like him as a player) but I didn't harp on it cuz there are a lot of Kemba fans there. And if I did criticize, I didn't attack the poster, but criticized the content of the post.

You come on this board and your responses to me from the get-go have been nothing but rude and condescending and snarky. Oftentimes not addressing the content of my post, but attacking me ("disingenuous" and so on, I'm not going to list all of it). If you talk like that to others, don't be surprised if it is matched with equal nastiness. I've made one sarcastic response, but other than that, I tried to keep it civil. I think we can both be capable of that.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#780 » by Mystical Apples » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:15 am

sidestep wrote:
Mystical Apples wrote:
sidestep wrote:@MysticalApples, you evaded my question by cutting it out of the quote. So I ask you again: Who is responsible for those lackluster quarters?

It was a word salad of unimportant noise. CHA's starters led CHA's bench in net ratings for the year. This isn't complicated.

So we won't that conversation. Fine by me.

I don't like Kemba


That's your problem. Bronx >>> UCONN >>> CHA

You come on this board and your responses to me from the get-go have been nothing but rude and condescending and snarky.


You became a BKN fan when? And a CHA fan when? Feel free to look back at your posts before fact check-iness (TM)

Oftentimes not addressing the content of my post, but attacking me ("disingenuous" and so on, I'm not going to list all of it). If you talk like that to others, don't be surprised if it is matched with equal nastiness.


Had no idea it was "nasty" (if you will).
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