2017 Nets Offseason Thread III

[Ror1997]

It can be bad if you're not good at drafting.

You have to be good at drafting to tank properly.

To counter Prok's point (and we have had this same argument 10 times).

Over 97% of NBA teams who have won a Championship drafted a Superstar player. Almost all of these superstar players were selected within the first 10 draft picks and most of them were selected in the top 5.

In other words, if you do not have a top pick then its nearly impossible to become a Championship winning team. There is no other way to do it.

With the exception of the 2004 Pistons, it has not been done.

Saying that every championship has drafted a top 10 pick is like saying every champion ship team has 15 players. It's more than that, but I digress.

Every Championship team has drafted their own Superstar.

How is that useless?

Half the league is not building that way.

Its actually a very important point, that seems to have gone over you head.

Its useless because we have a player in D'angelo Russell who perfectly describes your description.

Getting DLo makes up for our past 2 seasons of misery. We went through 2 terrible years with little to no young talent. Now we have an elite Prospect. A player who went #2 just 2 years ago, and would've gone atleast top 5 this year(that's an argument for a different day). He is that prospect you are referring to.

Tanking in 2019 effectively restarts the rebuild...To get what we already have..

Last season, the "Brooklyn Bridge Year" was the start of our first rebuild.

Firing King and Hiring Marks was the start of a second rebuild.

Now we're discussing a third rebuild before we're even halfway through the second?

You can't just press the pause button on a rebuild and decide to tank either. The opportunity has to present itself, not be forced. For example The spurs only got Duncan because Robinson got injured. The Sixer's arguably only got Simmons (and Fultz) because Embiid can't stay healthy. If you're forcing your team to tank, it means you've traded away all our young talent. That means the last 3 years were rendered useless. It also means the team would be another 3 years away from competing.

6 years of useless basketball for an organization that's still struggling to establish a smart fanbase. That's why tanking in 2019 is useless.

Btw pls dont try and say I'm targeting you again. I'm just contributing to forum discussion and I've held this stance in the past.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Saying that every championship has drafted a top 10 pick is like saying every champion ship team has 15 players. It's more than that, but I digress.

Every Championship team has drafted their own Superstar.

How is that useless?

Half the league is not building that way.

Its actually a very important point, that seems to have gone over you head.

Its useless because we have a player in D'angelo Russell who perfectly describes your description.

Getting DLo makes up for our past 2 seasons of misery. We went through 2 terrible years with little to no young talent. Now we have an elite Prospect. A player who went #2 just 2 years ago, and would've gone atleast top 5 this year(that's an argument for a different day). He is that prospect you are referring to.

Tanking in 2019 effectively restarts the rebuild...To get what we already have..

Last season, the "Brooklyn Bridge Year" was the start of our first rebuild.

Firing King and Hiring Marks was the start of a second rebuild.

Now we're discussing a third rebuild before we're even halfway through the second?

You can't just press the pause button on a rebuild and decide to tank either. The opportunity has to present itself, not be forced. For example The spurs only got Duncan because Robinson got injured. The Sixer's arguably only got Simmons (and Fultz) because Embiid can't stay healthy. If you're forcing your team to tank, it means you've traded away all our young talent. That means the last 3 years were rendered useless. It also means the team would be another 3 years away from competing.

6 years of useless basketball for an organization that's still struggling to establish a smart fanbase. That's why tanking in 2019 is useless.

Look I like D'Angelo Russell. He's a nice player.

But to say that he can be the type of player to lead a team to a Championship is completely delusional. The Lakers couldn't even get a lottery pick for him.

And Point Guards are almost never the best player on Championship teams. Curry is the lone exception because of his shooting ability.

I think he could end up being an all-star. But its is highly unlikely that he ends up being a Durant/Lebron type player.

Were in the midst of a rebuild right now. I don't see the point of moving forward with a Russell/Levert/RHJ core. We all know that that's not a Championship level team.

I never said we should force out team to tank. I would do it by letting Lin walk and trading away RHJ. As long as we can ensure that we have a top 5 pick in 2019. That's all I would want.

[SpeedyG]

I just don't see anything involving the rockets or the Blazers being worth taking on Crabbe or RA, and I freakin love Swanigan.

[Ror1997]

Every Championship team has drafted their own Superstar.

How is that useless?

Half the league is not building that way.

Its actually a very important point, that seems to have gone over you head.

Its useless because we have a player in D'angelo Russell who perfectly describes your description.

Getting DLo makes up for our past 2 seasons of misery. We went through 2 terrible years with little to no young talent. Now we have an elite Prospect. A player who went #2 just 2 years ago, and would've gone atleast top 5 this year(that's an argument for a different day). He is that prospect you are referring to.

Tanking in 2019 effectively restarts the rebuild...To get what we already have..

Last season, the "Brooklyn Bridge Year" was the start of our first rebuild.

Firing King and Hiring Marks was the start of a second rebuild.

Now we're discussing a third rebuild before we're even halfway through the second?

You can't just press the pause button on a rebuild and decide to tank either. The opportunity has to present itself, not be forced. For example The spurs only got Duncan because Robinson got injured. The Sixer's arguably only got Simmons (and Fultz) because Embiid can't stay healthy. If you're forcing your team to tank, it means you've traded away all our young talent. That means the last 3 years were rendered useless. It also means the team would be another 3 years away from competing.

6 years of useless basketball for an organization that's still struggling to establish a smart fanbase. That's why tanking in 2019 is useless.

Look I like D'Angelo Russell. He's a nice player.

But to say that he can be the type of player to lead a team to a Championship is completely delusional. The Lakers couldn't even get a lottery pick for him.

And Point Guards are almost never the best player on Championship teams. Curry is the lone exception because of his shooting ability.

I think he could end up being an all-star. But its is highly unlikely that he ends up being a Durant/Lebron type player.

Were in the midst of a rebuild right now. I don't see the point of moving forward with a Russell/Levert/RHJ core. We all know that that's not a Championship level team.

I never said we should force out team to tank. I would do it by letting Lin walk and trading away RHJ. As long as we can ensure that we have a top 5 pick in 2019. That's all I would want.

Ok that's fair. But if DLo can prove himself to be a good teammate in BK, and the nets continue to have an attractive culture/environment then that might be all you need.

Look at the Rockets. They didn't really have to do anything. Melo and CP3 wanted to go there and made it happen.

The reputation Brooklyn is growing for itself, coupled with the opportunity to play with a potential star PG, and young talent like LeVert and potential break outs. That's not a terrible pitch to free agents. Celtics did it and got Horford and Hayward back-to-back years in F/A.

I just feel like its unnecessary to try and tank when there are more practical options. We have a chance to make the playoffs In 2019 and I wouldn't throw that away for yet another frustrating year.

DLo is in a contract year in 2019. I just don't see him tanking.

[MrDollarBills]

So which player are you going to tank For?

It amazes me how any Nets fan can advocate this after watching the Wizards get John Wall.

No one has time to sit here and watch a 13 year rebuilding project.

The short sightedness is also a killer. We don't know how any of these guys will pan out. But people carry on like they are all finished products. God, I couldn't imagine what some of you dudes on here would have said about Jimmy Butler after two seasons.

[13th Man]

I never saw last year as being the start of a rebuild for this franchise, saw it more as a progressive shift in culture which went a bit smoother than expected, and next season will be a continued effort. Levert matured quickly as a rookie and with the unexpected acquisition of DLo, it makes some wonder or strongly consider if the Nets have their future core in place already right now.

I think this is where the contention lies, some fans believe that the Nets should field the best possible team right now by using up the cap space while others feel that they should stay the course, try to pick up future assets while targeting a lotto pick in the 2019 draft. I'm of the opinion of the latter, don't forget that just last year this team was scrambling for Crabbe just for the hopes of having a legitimate prospect on the roster. There were only 2 legit starters on the court and when Lopez wasn't playing we looked not much better than a D-League team. The Nets have come a long way in one short year but they're still not close to being there yet. The best thing that happened was not picking up Crabbe or even Porter this year imo.

I'm not even saying this for the best interest of Lin, I believe that he'll be gone within 1.5 years but I do want to see the Nets get a lotto pick in a deep 2019 draft. I know that's a long ways away but this is what Billy King did to the team, he gutted it in a big way. They don't even have to blatantly tank either like what the Sixers did, but just by absorbing dumps for future draft picks will do this organically. I know you guys want to get out of the basement and become a good team quickly but it wasn't supposed to happen overnight.

[moonpie]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246881/Jazz-Attempting-To-Trade-Boris-Diaw-Before-Guarantee-Date

[Mkdaman1818]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246881/Jazz-Attempting-To-Trade-Boris-Diaw-Before-Guarantee-Date

I wouldn't mind him - crafty veteran who's a great locker room presence

[Mkdaman1818]

Read on Twitter

[TheBrooklynKidd]

At this point I would be pretty happy with a Shabazz contract similar to Ben McLemore's 2 yr/11 mill deal.

Honestly everything they do from here on out should be done with the plan to offer Jabari Parker a max contract next offseason. Im sure Milwaukee who is a small market team would be reluctant to go over the luxury tax to sign a player that has missed so many games for them. However hes a perfect risk for us IMO.

In fact, since Milwaukee was rumored to be interested in signing Derrick Rose this offseason, we should offer them something like:

Andrew Nicholson + 2nd

for

Greg Monroe

This would give them the opportunity to sign DRose without going into the Luxury Tax this season and it would add even more money to their 2018/19 salary cap making them even less likely to match a Jabari max.

[PG13]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246881/Jazz-Attempting-To-Trade-Boris-Diaw-Before-Guarantee-Date

I wouldn't mind him - crafty veteran who's a great locker room presence

And a great espresso machine presence in his locker.

[Mkdaman1818]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246881/Jazz-Attempting-To-Trade-Boris-Diaw-Before-Guarantee-Date

I wouldn't mind him - crafty veteran who's a great locker room presence

And a great espresso machine presence in his locker.

Knowing us we'd spin up a marketing campaign with him, sponsored by Nespresso or Starbucks

[Paradise]

Read on Twitter

This is going to ruffle some feathers lol

I like the strides he made in Minnesota the last few years. I think he could fit in well if he checks his ego at the door.

[Mkdaman1818]

At this point I would be pretty happy with a Shabazz contract similar to Ben McLemore's 2 yr/11 mill deal.

Honestly everything they do from here on out should be done with the plan to offer Jabari Parker a max contract next offseason. Im sure Milwaukee who is a small market team would be reluctant to go over the luxury tax to sign a player that has missed so many games for them. However hes a perfect risk for us IMO.

In fact, since Milwaukee was rumored to be interested in signing Derrick Rose this offseason, we should offer them something like:

Andrew Nicholson + 2nd

for

Greg Monroe

This would give them the opportunity to sign DRose without going into the Luxury Tax this season and it would add even more money to their 2018/19 salary cap making them even less likely to match a Jabari max.

Not sure how shabazz would fit on our team though, given all the guards we have. Unless marks has a move up his sleeve...

[TheBrooklynKidd]

At this point I would be pretty happy with a Shabazz contract similar to Ben McLemore's 2 yr/11 mill deal.

Honestly everything they do from here on out should be done with the plan to offer Jabari Parker a max contract next offseason. Im sure Milwaukee who is a small market team would be reluctant to go over the luxury tax to sign a player that has missed so many games for them. However hes a perfect risk for us IMO.

In fact, since Milwaukee was rumored to be interested in signing Derrick Rose this offseason, we should offer them something like:

Andrew Nicholson + 2nd

for

Greg Monroe

This would give them the opportunity to sign DRose without going into the Luxury Tax this season and it would add even more money to their 2018/19 salary cap making them even less likely to match a Jabari max.

Not sure how shabazz would fit on our team though, given all the guards we have. Unless marks has a move up his sleeve...

Shabazz is a Forward though so I would assume he would take Acys roster spot.

[hood30]

HB, this started because of this post you made:

24 is still quite young. Most people hold that a player's prime years begin around 27 and end in their early 30s. There are plenty of players who show improvement after that age or when the change teams.

More importantly, Kenny's mantra is that every player can be developed and continue to improve throughout their career. Players from their young 20s to older vets well beyond the age of 24 have credited Kenny with pushing them to improve and actually bearing the fruit of their labor. His age is not really a factor at all.

The number of seasons he's played without large improvement is a more defensible argument. The box score stats backup the assessment of KCP being an inefficient shooter, but he's not inefficient in each type of shooting scenario. As Prok has shown, he's a very good catch-and-shoot player. His inefficiency comes from a trigger-happiness non-catch and shoot situations. The question is whether he can show enough self-restraint/Kenny can get through to him so that he can become a more efficient shooter but also a better, more effective player in other aspects.

Even though he will be on a different team and we can't be sure if he'll have the same playing style in LA, he actually performed better against the West.

In 48 games against the East, he averaged 13.6ppg on .392 FG% (4.88/12.44 FGM/FGA) /.329 3FG% (1.91/5.84 3PM/3PA)/ .507 TS% on 19.6 USG% and . His ORTG was 105 while his DRTG was 111. His +/- was -5.8 in 32.9 mpg.
In 27 games against the West, he averaged 14.1ppg on .412 FG% (4.85/11.78 FGM/FGA) /.391 3FG% (2.18/5.59 3PM/3PA) /.541 TS% on 18.7 USG%. His ORTG 109 while his DRTG was 108. His +/- was 0.0 in 34.0
In short, it seems like he was better in almost every facet of his offensive game against Western teams. He was a very good 3pt shooter on high volume against the West and he did it making more 3s on less attempts per game than against the East.


You then asked (I now assume rhetorically) when was the last time we saw a "huge" turnaround from a player beyond 24. Ror gave you an example of a player in Jimmy Butler. I don't think it's fair to get upset and just say that he is an anomaly when you only asked for one example as if to suggest that it's near impossible. Even in the chain quoted in this above, you went from saying that "Butler isn't a great shooter" to refusing to accept that "Butler was ever a bad shooter".

Is it that in your estimation, he was always a good shooter/scorer but needed to the comfortability of having high FGAs to prove it? Butler was given a 38.7mpg season on 39.7 FG% and 28.3 3FG% on 10.3 FGApg. Butler's increase in efficiency from thereafter was accompanied by an increase in FGAs 14.0 (and continually upwards since). KCP has already proved that he can shoot from distance better than Butler did. The only question is whether he can increase his efficiency if he's given more shot attempts. There was nothing to suggest that Butler could become that much better by his 3rd season, but we do know that his desire to get better and his work ethic are tremendous. KCP is a hardworking player. Maybe he just needs some guidance as well.

I clarified this several times, but I will do it for you again.

By huge turnaround I don't mean an improvement in skill. I mean a change in the way they play the game. I said this over and over again if you read my posts.

Obviously players can "improve" and become better at age 24. But they're not going to change their identity or the way they play.

Kenny can develop players by improving their skills. Hes not going to change the way that they play after they have already been playing that way for 4 years.

Furthermore, Jimmy Butler is not an example of someone who changed the way that he played. I don't believe that Jimmy Butler was ever a bad shooter. As I stated he shot 47% his second year on the Bulls. He also shot near 50% every year at Marquette. It's a false equivalency.

We have 4 years of evidence of KCP shooting terribly in the NBA. Even at Georgia he shot 39% and 43%. He has never been a good shooter at any level in his entire career.

That simply is not the case with Jimmy Butler. You can't just say because he had one year in Chicago that hes suddenly a terrible shooter the way that KCP is.

Also, I don't think its important why he is shooting badly. Whether its his shot selection or its his inability to shot. Either way, he has been playing this way since he was 18 years. Hes not going to change if he was signed here.

And I didn't say that Jimmy Butler was an anomaly in reference to the argument.

I said that EVEN if I accept the premise that Jimmy Butler=KCP (which I certainly do not), then it still does not justify signing KCP. Because Jimmy Butler is a very rare case.

And I'm not willing to pay KCP 100 mill because of some off chance that he could be the next Jimmy Butler. As I said, its a fool's errand.

And signing KCP is what this entire discussion was supposed to be about.

Real Talk the amount of people using Jimmy Butler to make a case for KCP is ridiculous. Do they know how rare it is for a player like Jimmy Butler to happen? Jimmy is also bigger and stronger then KCP was and his defense was way better then KCP and more valuable since he could guard 4 positions.

Agree with this...Shocked that people actually wanted KCP for 18M per..I get it that you want to improve your talent base, but for an average guy like KCP on a massive 18M per contract?..Glad that Marks is the GM and not some people on here.

KCP has been a full-time starter for 3 straight year and started 41 game during his rookie year....His career stats during these 4 years are 40%FG and 33% 3PFG..I tend to agree that it is highly unlikely he'd all of a sudden improve like Butler did...Possible but unlikely..He's been in the league for 4 years.

To me, if you're making 18M on a bad team like Brooklyn, you need to clearly be the best offensive player on that team if you're a guard..and that case could not be made if KCP was signed here.

[NyCeEvO]

I don't really care if we don't get any good free agents in 2018. I still want to be in position to get a high lottery pick in 2019.

That plan would be ruined if we sign someone and become a 40 win team.

Marks sees the long term game. Not trying to be the next Orlando Magic.

Since the Magic traded Dwight Howard, their yearly records have been:
2012-13: 20-62 (#2 overall pick: Victor Oladipo)
2013-14: 23-59 (#4, #12 overall picks: Aaron Gordon, Dario Saric)
2014-15: 25-57 (#5 overall pick: Mario Hezonja)
2015-16: 35-47 (#11 overall pick: Domantas Sabonis)
2016-17: 29-53 (#6 overall pick: Jonathan Isaac)

They are the perfect example of a team that has had a bad record (equivalent to a tank) despite signing quality players over the years. They have been in a prime position to draft some of the best players available and yet they've remained pretty bad.

If anything, I think ORL is a case study of how things can still be bad when you have great pick selection despite signing some quality players. Having the worst record only gives you a 25% chance of drafting the #1. The Magic have had a top 6 pick four out of the last 5 seasons.

IMO, this just supports Prok's idea that intentional tanking is bad. The Magic have had tanking records despite not trying to tank and yet they're still searching for answers.

It can be bad if you're not good at drafting.

You have to be good at drafting to tank properly.

To counter Prok's point (and we have had this same argument 10 times).

Over 97% of NBA teams who have won a Championship drafted a Superstar player. Almost all of these superstar players were selected within the first 10 draft picks and most of them were selected in the top 5.

In other words, if you do not have a top pick then its nearly impossible to become a Championship winning team. There is no other way to do it.

With the exception of the 2004 Pistons, it has not been done.

It's one thing to select mid-to-end of 1st round players who outperform their draft spot, but these players almost never turn into superstars. Marks has never had a top draft pick and we've never held him to the expectation that the player he selects ought to turn into one. That's a completely different ballgame.

Yes, 97% of championship teams drafted a superstar player, but you have absolutely no control over which years the best superstars-to-be will be available. You are reading the end result back into the cause. Of course, when we do that it looks like tanking is a no brainer. But that completely voids the process of obtaining the championship of context.

Here are the 2007-2015 drafts and the superstars (and just 'stars' in brackets []) along with their respective draft slot:
2007 - Kevin Durant (2nd), [Al Horford (3rd)], [Mike Conley (4th)], **Greg Oden (1st),
2008 - *Derrick Rose (1st), Russell Westbrook (4th), [Kevin Love (5th)]
2009 - [Blake Griffin (1st)], James Harden (3rd), Stephen Curry (7th), [Demar Derozan (9th)]
2010 - John Wall (1st) [borderline superstar], Demarcus Cousins (5th), [Paul George (10th)]
2011 - [Kyrie Irving (1st)]
2012 - Anthony Davis (1st), [Damian Lillard (6th)]
2013 - None
2014 - Too early to tell but Wiggins hasn't produced wins yet, Parker has been injury prone but looks like he's on his way to being a star/allstar, Embiid was projected to be #1 before his injury but still isn't an allstar yet due to health
2015 - [Karl-Anthony Towns (1st)], [Kristaps Porzingis (4th)]

A few things stick out...
— John Wall, KAT, and Wiggins are the only non-injury prone #1 overall pick players. Embiid would have been the #1 overall pick if he didn't have a back injury that was seemingly unrelated to his subsequent lower-body injuries. The Nets have a great medical staff but that doesn't mean we won't select the BPA who isn't injury-prone.
— Since the worst team only has a 25% of winning the lottery (and I think the worst team has only won it twice in the last ten drafts), you could easily end up drafting 3rd like in the 2007 draft and miss out on the superstar. Or if Marks is as high on character as we think, maybe he avoids DMC in 2010 because he doesn't want to have to deal with the headache. We know that that was a factor in the Nets decision to draft Favors over him.


I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should avoid having a bad team at all costs. We've done that these last two (soon to be three) seasons without the express purpose of being as bad as possible. SEA/OKC had a record of 31-51, the 5th worst record in the league, when they fortunately avoided the pressure of drafting Oden and got Durant. In the Nets last 5 seasons in New Jersey, they won 34, 34, 12, 24, and 22 games; we didn't get our superstar. Surely the Nets can't be blamed for not sucking enough. There's a ton of luck involved in the process of getting a superstar.

The one major caveat that you've left out of your "tanking correlates to winning a championship" argument is that no superstar wins a championship on his own. The core of championship teams over the last 20 seasons (with the exception of the Spurs) has comprised of star players that weren't drafted by that team. The eventual champion used assets to acquire other allstar/superstar players in order to help them win.

The Lakers signed Shaq.
The Heat traded for Shaq.
The Pistons were a collection of castoffs.
The Celtics traded for Garnett and Allen.
The Lakers traded for Gasol and signed Odom.
The Mavs traded for Tyson Chandler (and previously Shawn Marion).
The Heat signed LBJ and Chris Bosh.
The Warriors traded for Andre Iguodala.
The Cavs signed LBJ and traded for Kevin Love.
The Warriors signed Kevin Durant.

Even the Spurs had players from other teams who were integral parts of their championships teams in Stephen Jackson and Danny Green. Additionally, many people rate the Spurs period of winning alternative years in the 2000s as one of the weakest eras of NBA basketball. If the Spurs faced typical championship level teams (and not the Nets or the Pistons), maybe they don't win those years.

What this should tell you is that you don't even need to be the team that drafts a superstar to win; the best way to win a championship is to have as many assets (e.g. prospects, future draft picks, cap space) as possible and be a best destination city.

Winning a championship takes a lot of luck and discipline. But it's certainly not predicated on solely just tanking for multiple years. Many teams have done that and failed. It's the teams with players who are stars (not always drafted top-5), great asset management, and the ability to sell players on their city that win championships.

[Paradise]

Shabazz is a Small Forward that had some success as a small ball four.



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[moonpie]

Read on Twitter

[TheBrooklynKidd]

Read on Twitter

Thank god.

I don't want that scrub anywhere near this team.