Harden-watch 2020

[Prokorov]

Man all these picks getting traded around I just hope Rockets don't think we're trading 5 1sts. We have all the leverage anyway so i doubt Marks give up that much. Harden wants to come here and here only so we should only be giving up 3 picks TOPS. I would make try to make it 2 though.

if it takes 5 picks we are trading 5 picks.

James harden is a generational talent who has demonstrated his stats lead to wins/on-court impact.

The picks in a pessemistic scenario would likely be:

2020 - #19
2021 (SWAP) - No pick swap since were better then them (year 1 of Harden/Kd/Kyrie)
2022 - 15-25 or later (year 2 of Harden/Kd/Kyrie)
2023 (SWAP) - if houston is good by then maybe a pick 5-15
2024 - pick 1-10

Houston is gutting their team. there is no way they will be better then us this season. which instantly turns the 5 picks into 4 since the swap would not convey if we are better. Next year even if the wheels fall off there is still enough talent to get 35-40+ wins. look at boston in their "disasterous" second year with kyrie. they were a 4 seed.

2023 - houston may still suck. if we also suck but suck less we keep the pick. If we suck worse its still a swap and we would get there pick, which realistically would be in the 10-19 range which doesnt leave us completely bare. 2024 is most likely to give a major asset. lets say they get a top 3 pick.

i think that would be well worth harden, in his prime, and give us a legit title shot. in 2012 even with Pierce/KG we never expected to win a title. Kyrie/Harden/KD would.

[Prokorov]

Man all these picks getting traded around I just hope Rockets don't think we're trading 5 1sts. We have all the leverage anyway so i doubt Marks give up that much. Harden wants to come here and here only so we should only be giving up 3 picks TOPS. I would make try to make it 2 though.

We can always play out the season and then trade for Harden next off season. Rockets will likely be a disaster this year with no Covington and Westbrook on his way out.

He will have less value on an expiring too.

I think in a vaccum that makes sense. but we have a small 2-ish year title window. why wait so that you can hold on to 1-2 picks (which may not even convey if they are swaps and/or you get the rockets pick which is also a high pick)?

I think given KD/Kyrie's injury status having someone like harden is even more important. A super durable guy who has shown he can carry a team in the regular season so Kd/Kyrie can get plenty of maintenance days.

It would be one thing if we had young stars and lotto picks. like if we were boston and they wanted Tatum/Brown and some of the picks they own. but we have no elite under 24 year old players and no matter how bad you think our floor is its not likely we will give them the #1 pick the next couple years

[Prokorov]

Man all these picks getting traded around I just hope Rockets don't think we're trading 5 1sts. We have all the leverage anyway so i doubt Marks give up that much. Harden wants to come here and here only so we should only be giving up 3 picks TOPS. I would make try to make it 2 though.

We can always play out the season and then trade for Harden next off season. Rockets will likely be a disaster this year with no Covington and Westbrook on his way out.

He will have less value on an expiring too.

True. But them trading Covington kind of indicates they're blowing it up. I don't see harden being happy at all staying there for another season. It would get ugly.

Even better for us. if its ugly for them that means a pick swap after this season wouldnt convey which would turn 5 picks into 4 right off the bat one of them being #19 this year in an awful draft.

[Hello Brooklyn]

there is nothing absurd about 5 first rounders for Harden. we would be idiots not to make that deal. thats cheap given non are even guaranteed to be lotto.

we need to add to our team. we need a defender and/or to move one of dinwiddie or levert.

Nope. I'm not giving up our entire future for Harden.

I'm confident in Marks be able to get defensive pieces through MLE, vet min, draft and smaller trades. Brown is a good start.

No need to trade Dinwiddie/Levert.

Dinwiddie and levert are not the future. they are 26-27 year old role players or slightly above role players. levert is always hurt and Dinwiddie is going to bounce for the biggest deal he can get.

If you are hesistant about a boatload of picks, i can understand that, especially after the billy king debacle. but the players, we arent dealing the future there. Harden is better then both and even being longer will likely be better then both the next 5 seasons.

i think there is significantly less risk with future picks with this team vs. the Deron/brook team. the next 2 seasons this team wont be lottery. any one of the 3 can keep us playoff relevant. any 2 can make us finals relevant. and mark sis probably smart enough to have some protection even if its just top1 or top3

I don't have any problem with trading Dinwiddie and Levert for Harden.

And I have always been against trading them. But if its for Harden you do it.

I don't want to trade all our picks that far into the future. It's not worth it. Puts us in a terrible position.

Who knows where we will be in 2026.

[Prokorov]

[

Nets are the best team in the East as is.

I dont think this is true. especially with the moves the bucks just made. I know you arent super high on Jrue but:

Jrue | Bogdanovic | Middleton | Giannis | Lopez is a better version of a team with the best record in the NBA last year. Boston has assets to add to them. If we dont get Harden, Philly might.

Kyrie/KD could start slow or need miantenance. we are deep around them, but we lack defenders.

We don't need to do a panic move and mortgage our future to get Harden here asap.

the future is NOW. we may never get a better shot as a title. Dinwiddie/Levert/Allen are easily repaceable.

Asking price will come down at the deadline and next off season after the dumpster fire of a season the Rockets will have.

Why waste a year so we can keep 1 or 2 picks in the teens? Esp[ecially when this year may be our best chance.

[Prokorov]

A couple of thoughts:
1) People talk about whether Philly should trade Simmons for Harden. If they had to move one, it should be Embiid.
2) New talk is that HOU wants KD or Kyrie for Harden. Feels dirty, but I think you move either, especially Kyrie if that's what it takes.
3) Somebody will blink, and I don't think it's us. I am worried it'll be Philly or a quiet giant like Boston or Denver. Boston is way too quiet right now.
4) Milwaukee overpaid, but Jrue and Bogdan makes them much better.
5) I feel like Marks has a non-Harden shocker up his sleeve should a Harden deal not happen.

I'd LOVE for it to be boston. would cost them at least brown or tatum and smart. Then Harden would leave for us like Kyrie did anyhow and it would be full ether.

[Prokorov]

The fact that Covington netted 2 first round picks should prepare you guys for the cost of doing business.

Last offseason's trades of Paul George and Russell Westbrook for an obscene amount of draft capital has now paved the way for what will happen next.

I actually think that #16 and a lotto protected first for Covington is not a bad trade for either side, and I actually like the move a lot for Portland. If I had the option to trade Taurean Prince, #19, and a lotto protected first for RoCo, I would do it.

To me, I'm honestly kind of upset that the Nets didn't jump on this first.

However, if we can come away with Harden and say PJ Tucker, at this point we are going to have to offer substantial draft capital. 4 1st rounders at minimum.

yeah dnt waste assets on covington when you can land harden.

[Hello Brooklyn]

[

Nets are the best team in the East as is.

I dont think this is true. especially with the moves the bucks just made. I know you arent super high on Jrue but:

Jrue | Bogdanovic | Middleton | Giannis | Lopez is a better version of a team with the best record in the NBA last year. Boston has assets to add to them. If we dont get Harden, Philly might.

Kyrie/KD could start slow or need miantenance. we are deep around them, but we lack defenders.

We don't need to do a panic move and mortgage our future to get Harden here asap.

the future is NOW. we may never get a better shot as a title. Dinwiddie/Levert/Allen are easily repaceable.

Asking price will come down at the deadline and next off season after the dumpster fire of a season the Rockets will have.

Why waste a year so we can keep 1 or 2 picks in the teens? Esp[ecially when this year may be our best chance.

Why are you so high on the Bucks?

They just flamed out in the 2nd round to the Heat with really no excuse for doing so.

I like Holiday but hes not the 2nd option on a Championship team. We've seen that with the Pelicans.

Giannis was abysmal last year in the playoffs. He can't create his own shot and he can't close games. Holiday is not elite offensive player either.

Until Giannis figures out his playoff struggles I have no real fear of the Bucks.

I think we would be the clear favorites against them in a playoff series. I would consider the Heat or Celtics to be a greater threat after what I saw last year.

[Hello Brooklyn]

We can always play out the season and then trade for Harden next off season. Rockets will likely be a disaster this year with no Covington and Westbrook on his way out.

He will have less value on an expiring too.

True. But them trading Covington kind of indicates they're blowing it up. I don't see harden being happy at all staying there for another season. It would get ugly.

Even better for us. if its ugly for them that means a pick swap after this season wouldnt convey which would turn 5 picks into 4 right off the bat one of them being #19 this year in an awful draft.

This draft is only awful in terms of high end talent. It has plenty of great role players including that #19 pick.

[Prokorov]

True. But them trading Covington kind of indicates they're blowing it up. I don't see harden being happy at all staying there for another season. It would get ugly.

Even better for us. if its ugly for them that means a pick swap after this season wouldnt convey which would turn 5 picks into 4 right off the bat one of them being #19 this year in an awful draft.

This draft is only awful in terms of high end talent. It has plenty of great role players including that #19 pick.

exactly... role players. giving up role players for an in-prime MVP is a non issue.

[Prokorov]

[

Nets are the best team in the East as is.

I dont think this is true. especially with the moves the bucks just made. I know you arent super high on Jrue but:

Jrue | Bogdanovic | Middleton | Giannis | Lopez is a better version of a team with the best record in the NBA last year. Boston has assets to add to them. If we dont get Harden, Philly might.

Kyrie/KD could start slow or need miantenance. we are deep around them, but we lack defenders.

We don't need to do a panic move and mortgage our future to get Harden here asap.

the future is NOW. we may never get a better shot as a title. Dinwiddie/Levert/Allen are easily repaceable.

Asking price will come down at the deadline and next off season after the dumpster fire of a season the Rockets will have.

Why waste a year so we can keep 1 or 2 picks in the teens? Esp[ecially when this year may be our best chance.

Why are you so high on the Bucks?

They just flamed out in the 2nd round to the Heat with really no excuse for doing so.

I like Holiday but hes not the 2nd option on a Championship team. We've seen that with the Pelicans.

Giannis was abysmal last year in the playoffs. He can't create his own shot and he can't close games. Holiday is not elite offensive player either.

Until Giannis figures out his playoff struggles I have no real fear of the Bucks.

I think we would be the clear favorites against them in a playoff series. I would consider the Heat or Celtics to be a greater threat after what I saw last year.

Giannis is 25. he got to the ECF last season and lost to KAwhi in 6. There is no shame in that. Kawhi is better then Giannis and raps cast was better then the bucks cast.

This year was weird. huge layoff, the bubble, no home/road, etc. Miami clicked the way other teams didnt. Giannis had some minor injuries.

The bucks are MUCH better with the moves they made. Bogs/Jrue are better then Bledsoe/Hill. The bucks biggest issue was creating offense and they added 2 guys who can create offense.

its not like the bucks won 45 games and got swept in the first round. this is a perrenial 60-win team that just upgraded at its biggest weakness. And giannis is 25, his shot already got better last year and he likely still has more ceiling left.

The bucks are also a bad matchup for us. few teams can match up defensively with Kyrie/KD.... but the bucks can. Giannis may be the best defender to match KD and Jrue is definitetly the best G to match up with Kyrie.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I dont think this is true. especially with the moves the bucks just made. I know you arent super high on Jrue but:

Jrue | Bogdanovic | Middleton | Giannis | Lopez is a better version of a team with the best record in the NBA last year. Boston has assets to add to them. If we dont get Harden, Philly might.

Kyrie/KD could start slow or need miantenance. we are deep around them, but we lack defenders.



the future is NOW. we may never get a better shot as a title. Dinwiddie/Levert/Allen are easily repaceable.



Why waste a year so we can keep 1 or 2 picks in the teens? Esp[ecially when this year may be our best chance.

Why are you so high on the Bucks?

They just flamed out in the 2nd round to the Heat with really no excuse for doing so.

I like Holiday but hes not the 2nd option on a Championship team. We've seen that with the Pelicans.

Giannis was abysmal last year in the playoffs. He can't create his own shot and he can't close games. Holiday is not elite offensive player either.

Until Giannis figures out his playoff struggles I have no real fear of the Bucks.

I think we would be the clear favorites against them in a playoff series. I would consider the Heat or Celtics to be a greater threat after what I saw last year.

Giannis is 25. he got to the ECF last season and lost to KAwhi in 6. There is no shame in that. Kawhi is better then Giannis and raps cast was better then the bucks cast.

This year was weird. huge layoff, the bubble, no home/road, etc. Miami clicked the way other teams didnt. Giannis had some minor injuries.

The bucks are MUCH better with the moves they made. Bogs/Jrue are better then Bledsoe/Hill. The bucks biggest issue was creating offense and they added 2 guys who can create offense.

its not like the bucks won 45 games and got swept in the first round. this is a perrenial 60-win team that just upgraded at its biggest weakness. And giannis is 25, his shot already got better last year and he likely still has more ceiling left.

The bucks are also a bad matchup for us. few teams can match up defensively with Kyrie/KD.... but the bucks can. Giannis may be the best defender to match KD and Jrue is definitetly the best G to match up with Kyrie.

They will be great defensively.

Still no elite players to rely on offensively.

The wall method still works against Giannis. He can't shoot or be relied on in close games.

Until he proves he can dominate offensively in a playoff series, I don't see how the Bucks are a serious contender.

Giannis didn't even guard Butler. What makes us think hes taking the assignment of KD?

KD and Kyrie are better offensively than anyone on the Bucks in a playoff series. They cannot match us.

[MrDollarBills]

Every time something like this happens, the media and teams start freaking out about "player empowerment".

People are gonna say I'm biased but I felt the same way when it applied to LBJ, KD, etc.

Harden gave the Rockets 8 amazing years. 1 MVP. 6 1st team All NBA. 8 All Star appearances. Barely missed a game. Turned them into one of the most successful and popular teams in the league. Straight carried them for stretches when he was the only ballhandler on the team. Helped recruit multiple stars to Houston. If anyone has the right to ask to leave and not get killed for it, it's James. Especially with a cheap Trump supporting owner who dumped his coach and GM and wasn't willing to pay to keep good players.

Not saying they have to trade him to Brooklyn for nothing - but I'm seeing so much talk about how they should just let him sulk for 2 years, trade him to Charlotte or somewhere he doesn't want to go, how selfish players are, etc. Total BS.

the players SHOULD be empowered. they are the ones making the money. No one is tuning in on TV or paying money because of the owners.

If the Rockets want to make the Nets pay a heavy price for Durant tampering with Harden, which now appears to be the case, fine. But I can't sit here and say that they don't have a right to ask for a trade. Guys get traded and have no say in the process most of the time, but all of a sudden it's an issue when a player wants one?

[Prokorov]

Why are you so high on the Bucks?

They just flamed out in the 2nd round to the Heat with really no excuse for doing so.

I like Holiday but hes not the 2nd option on a Championship team. We've seen that with the Pelicans.

Giannis was abysmal last year in the playoffs. He can't create his own shot and he can't close games. Holiday is not elite offensive player either.

Until Giannis figures out his playoff struggles I have no real fear of the Bucks.

I think we would be the clear favorites against them in a playoff series. I would consider the Heat or Celtics to be a greater threat after what I saw last year.

Giannis is 25. he got to the ECF last season and lost to KAwhi in 6. There is no shame in that. Kawhi is better then Giannis and raps cast was better then the bucks cast.

This year was weird. huge layoff, the bubble, no home/road, etc. Miami clicked the way other teams didnt. Giannis had some minor injuries.

The bucks are MUCH better with the moves they made. Bogs/Jrue are better then Bledsoe/Hill. The bucks biggest issue was creating offense and they added 2 guys who can create offense.

its not like the bucks won 45 games and got swept in the first round. this is a perrenial 60-win team that just upgraded at its biggest weakness. And giannis is 25, his shot already got better last year and he likely still has more ceiling left.

The bucks are also a bad matchup for us. few teams can match up defensively with Kyrie/KD.... but the bucks can. Giannis may be the best defender to match KD and Jrue is definitetly the best G to match up with Kyrie.

They will be great defensively.

Still no elite players to rely on offensively.

The wall method still works against Giannis. He can't shoot or be relied on in close games.

Until he proves he can dominate offensively in a playoff series, I don't see how the Bucks are a serious contender.

Giannis didn't even guard Butler. What makes us think hes taking the assignment of KD?

KD and Kyrie are better offensively than anyone on the Bucks in a playoff series. They cannot match us.

This is just flat out false. Giannis has actually dominated several playoff series offensively. He has dominated several 4th quarter/final 2 minutes offensively.

Just because 2 elite defensive teams with all-world defenders were able to shut him down/exploit him doesnt change that. and those game plans are alot tougher now that he has more offensive talent around him.

They would be trouble for us. bigtime trouble.

[MrDollarBills]

Right now, the Nets have no choice. We are in a once in a lifetime situation: A top 5 player is demanding to be traded to US.

Marks needs to offer Allen, LeVert, Dinwiddie, Prince + #19, 1st '22, 1st 24, with pick swap options on 1st '21, and 1st '23. All picks will have a certain degree of protection. That's 5 picks.

I have my concerns about Harden, but the Lakers are reloaded. The Bucks are reloaded. We cannot afford to let this opportunity slip.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Giannis is 25. he got to the ECF last season and lost to KAwhi in 6. There is no shame in that. Kawhi is better then Giannis and raps cast was better then the bucks cast.

This year was weird. huge layoff, the bubble, no home/road, etc. Miami clicked the way other teams didnt. Giannis had some minor injuries.

The bucks are MUCH better with the moves they made. Bogs/Jrue are better then Bledsoe/Hill. The bucks biggest issue was creating offense and they added 2 guys who can create offense.

its not like the bucks won 45 games and got swept in the first round. this is a perrenial 60-win team that just upgraded at its biggest weakness. And giannis is 25, his shot already got better last year and he likely still has more ceiling left.

The bucks are also a bad matchup for us. few teams can match up defensively with Kyrie/KD.... but the bucks can. Giannis may be the best defender to match KD and Jrue is definitetly the best G to match up with Kyrie.

They will be great defensively.

Still no elite players to rely on offensively.

The wall method still works against Giannis. He can't shoot or be relied on in close games.

Until he proves he can dominate offensively in a playoff series, I don't see how the Bucks are a serious contender.

Giannis didn't even guard Butler. What makes us think hes taking the assignment of KD?

KD and Kyrie are better offensively than anyone on the Bucks in a playoff series. They cannot match us.

This is just flat out false. Giannis has actually dominated several playoff series offensively. He has dominated several 4th quarter/final 2 minutes offensively.

Just because 2 elite defensive teams with all-world defenders were able to shut him down/exploit him doesnt change that. and those game plans are alot tougher now that he has more offensive talent around him.

They would be trouble for us. bigtime trouble.

Dominated in a playoff series against who exactly?

Bad teams?

Does that really mean anything?

Anytime he faces a good team he shrinks/has a meltdown.

[Prokorov]

They will be great defensively.

Still no elite players to rely on offensively.

The wall method still works against Giannis. He can't shoot or be relied on in close games.

Until he proves he can dominate offensively in a playoff series, I don't see how the Bucks are a serious contender.

Giannis didn't even guard Butler. What makes us think hes taking the assignment of KD?

KD and Kyrie are better offensively than anyone on the Bucks in a playoff series. They cannot match us.

This is just flat out false. Giannis has actually dominated several playoff series offensively. He has dominated several 4th quarter/final 2 minutes offensively.

Just because 2 elite defensive teams with all-world defenders were able to shut him down/exploit him doesnt change that. and those game plans are alot tougher now that he has more offensive talent around him.

They would be trouble for us. bigtime trouble.

Dominated in a playoff series against who exactly?

Bad teams?

Does that really mean anything?

Anytime he faces a good team he shrinks/has a meltdown.

-He dominated Boston in 2018 (they lost the series in 7 but he was a 1 man team then)
-he dominated boston in 2019
-He played very well vs tononto (24/12/5 on 58 TS%)

Thsoe were all elite defensive teams. he also decimated the pacers/pistons/magic who were all trash.

Miami was the only team who "exposed" him. after a huge layoff, in an odd bubble enviornment.


I think you are going off a narrative and not actually what has been true for his playoff career. i think if you go back and look at all his playoff series vs good teams and watch the highlights or ends of those games, your opinion would drastically change.

I think we can agree to disagree on Jrue/Bogs vs bledsoe/hill. thats fine. but it think with Giannis you are selling him short based on a falese narrative that alot of people thorw out

[Prokorov]

Right now, the Nets have no choice. We are in a once in a lifetime situation: A top 5 player is demanding to be traded to US.

Marks needs to offer Allen, LeVert, Dinwiddie, Prince + #19, 1st '22, 1st 24, with pick swap options on 1st '21, and 1st '23. All picks will have a certain degree of protection. That's 5 picks.

I have my concerns about Harden, but the Lakers are reloaded. The Bucks are reloaded. We cannot afford to let this opportunity slip.

What exactly are your concerns with Harden? For me, I have less concerns with him then Kyrie or KD.

-Harden is Durable
-Hardens stats have historically translated to wins
-Stars who have paired with Harden have fared well (CP3's most succesful year, westbrook was better with him vs PG)
-He has excelled in both small ball and a rim running big
-Elite off ball shooter
-Defense has been extremely solid if not good since 2017
-Has shown he can lead a team with no other stars to regular season wins

Biggest concern is maybe his contract but he is only 31 and has been super durable so that isnt too risky.

I mean the guy is a perrnail top 5 MVP vote getter and perrenial scoring champ.

Despite all the talking heads and casuals saying otherwise... Kyrie/KD/Harden is actually an elite fit. 3 guys who can play on ball, off ball, and run pick and roll. all 3 are elite shooters. all 3 have insane BBIQ's. there are going to be some '92 dream team -esque moments

[MrDollarBills]

Right now, the Nets have no choice. We are in a once in a lifetime situation: A top 5 player is demanding to be traded to US.

Marks needs to offer Allen, LeVert, Dinwiddie, Prince + #19, 1st '22, 1st 24, with pick swap options on 1st '21, and 1st '23. All picks will have a certain degree of protection. That's 5 picks.

I have my concerns about Harden, but the Lakers are reloaded. The Bucks are reloaded. We cannot afford to let this opportunity slip.

What exactly are your concerns with Harden? For me, I have less concerns with him then Kyrie or KD.

-Harden is Durable
-Hardens stats have historically translated to wins
-Stars who have paired with Harden have fared well (CP3's most succesful year, westbrook was better with him vs PG)
-He has excelled in both small ball and a rim running big
-Elite off ball shooter
-Defense has been extremely solid if not good since 2017
-Has shown he can lead a team with no other stars to regular season wins

Biggest concern is maybe his contract but he is only 31 and has been super durable so that isnt too risky.

I mean the guy is a perrnail top 5 MVP vote getter and perrenial scoring champ.

Despite all the talking heads and casuals saying otherwise... Kyrie/KD/Harden is actually an elite fit. 3 guys who can play on ball, off ball, and run pick and roll. all 3 are elite shooters. all 3 have insane BBIQ's. there are going to be some '92 dream team -esque moments

Mainly his attitude towards his usage. He's gotten accustomed to being the entire offense. I'm assuming that since he and KD are in cahoots, he's coming in with the mindset that he will have to get used to playing off the ball more in an offense where Nash and MDA will want the ball to move and flow quickly.

the fact that he spoke with KD and wants to be here has alleviated my concerns about his fit for the most part. He knows what he's getting into.

[Paradise]

Right now, the Nets have no choice. We are in a once in a lifetime situation: A top 5 player is demanding to be traded to US.

Marks needs to offer Allen, LeVert, Dinwiddie, Prince + #19, 1st '22, 1st 24, with pick swap options on 1st '21, and 1st '23. All picks will have a certain degree of protection. That's 5 picks.

I have my concerns about Harden, but the Lakers are reloaded. The Bucks are reloaded. We cannot afford to let this opportunity slip.

What exactly are your concerns with Harden? For me, I have less concerns with him then Kyrie or KD.

-Harden is Durable
-Hardens stats have historically translated to wins
-Stars who have paired with Harden have fared well (CP3's most succesful year, westbrook was better with him vs PG)
-He has excelled in both small ball and a rim running big
-Elite off ball shooter
-Defense has been extremely solid if not good since 2017
-Has shown he can lead a team with no other stars to regular season wins

Biggest concern is maybe his contract but he is only 31 and has been super durable so that isnt too risky.

I mean the guy is a perrnail top 5 MVP vote getter and perrenial scoring champ.

Despite all the talking heads and casuals saying otherwise... Kyrie/KD/Harden is actually an elite fit. 3 guys who can play on ball, off ball, and run pick and roll. all 3 are elite shooters. all 3 have insane BBIQ's. there are going to be some '92 dream team -esque moments

Agreed.

You are basically ensuring a title contender and still winning games, if KD missed time or even is load managed heavily. Same with Kyrie.

I bet both have let Harden know he will have games here that he will be by himself, so his style of play will be regular season beneficial for those two to rest and prepare for the postseason grind in this new format.