RealGM

I'd like to re-open the discussion on what to do with our '10 capspace. Rich Rane, I know I created a similar thread a few weeks ago, but enough has changed since the draft lottery that I felt it merited revisiting in a separate thread.

AFTER signing a max FA who shall remain nameless (rhymes with DeBron...), we should still be around $10mil under, with plenty of potential suitors licking their chops to get some cap relief. The chance to add another bigtime player to our core is available, and our front office has made it clear that they are willing to "spend to contend". Our possibilities fall in 3 main categories:

The simplest answer is to sign a 2nd FA to partner with whatever max guy we get. Of course, this would also depend on the draft, which obviously occurs before the start of free agency. If we draft Cousins (bigger upside) or Favors (more Avery-friendly) at #3, we would look at a swingman with our capspace. If Turner falls to us, it makes more sense to go after a PF in free agency. 2nd-tier guys like Carlos Boozer and David Lee will receive higher offers for first-year salary than this, so they would have to be willing to take less money to come here. Rudy Gay could land in this price range, but he's a RFA, and I believe the Grizzlies will match any offer sheet that starts at less than $12mil. SO, that leaves us with 3rd-tier options such as John Salmons, Josh Howard (Avery would love that... ), Luis Scola and Udonis Haslem. Call me crazy, but I don't think any of these guys are worth $10mil to us; we have younger guys currently under contract that can fill this level of contribution by committee.

The second solution is to work a sign-and-trade deal for a higher-echelon player. Our capspace plus Terrence Williams and Yi Jianlian would give us the ability to S&T for a 2nd max FA like Dwyane Wade, Joe Johnson, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Bosh or Amar'e Stoudemire. But is the opportunity cost of trading away promising youth too steep?

Finally, the third option is to directly acquire a player or players already under contract with our capspace via a TPE trade. Usually, these sorts of trade are either intrinsically rewarding (i.e. the player is good, but the team doesn't need him), or come with added incentive for shouldering the burden of an onerous contract. Some of our bigger contracts (Devin, Yi, Dooling) would have to be included to allow some deals to work, with max capspace to spare. This 3-Way with the Grizzlies and Sixers would net us Elton Brand, Jrue Holiday and the #2 pick. Another possible deal, with the Grizzlies and Jazz, would only happen after July 1st, and would give us Mike Conley, Andrei Kirilenko, and the #9 and #12 picks. In a different July 1st deal, the Heat could send us Michael Beasley, James Jones, Daequan Cook, and the #18 pick for essentially nothing (a swap of conditional 2nd-rounders or something). The upside to this deal over the other two is that we get all youth assets, and don't have to trade Devin. The Heat's outgoing contracts constitute $13mil altogether, but Jones' contract is partially unguaranteed. We could buy him out and maintain max capspace. Keep in mind though, that this deal would add capspace for a team that wants the exact same elite FAs that we do. We'd have to be sure we weren't slitting out own throat, so to speak.

Obviously, our prospects are bright right now. But which way do we go? YOU decide!

I chose S&T but I still truly believe we will move some contracts for pure cap space before July 1st to get us the room to sign a 2nd player outright.

I don´t mind sign and trade as long as we´re not giving up any of; Lopez, Mr.T, Harris, and any of our picks. The rest I couldn´t care less about.

Since we didnt land Wall and Devin is now needed (unless we can move him for a cheaper PG we value) my feeling is...the best thing we can do is...create more cap room with the more expendable pieces.

Yi, Humphries, 27th pick, CDR are the pool we can move for cap space. These are pieces that get us the space for a max 2nd guy. I value Lee and Twill over any of the above. Obviously...Brook is going no where in any plan we would put together as fans.

So? See who will come and then make your moves. I would rather straight sign a Lee or Boozer for 12-13 mil than have to S&T a max deal for Bosh or Amare anyway.

I mean think about it. Are they worth that much more than the other two to cost us Devin, and more of our cap pie? Bosh much more so than Amare....but really think about your team and ask...Devin plus Lee or Bosh and some scrub PG?

And for me...since the draft is before Jul 1st....dont worry about who. Draft the best talent on the board at any position. That's Turner or Favors....no one else needs to be considered. I think Twill can become special. Dont feet a need to reach for Wes just because we have a better chance at signing a big man for the second big contract. Extra bigs is a GREAT luxury. Dont worry about starters. Have talent and options for trades over the coming seasons.

I dont think we can get Wade. But he is the one guy that if he said OK....second star in with Lebron...but not doing it unless its a sign and trade...I would say screw it. If some how Wade is possible for the second guy...and we figure out the PG later. Wade and Lebron together? Get any guard who can defend and shoot an open look. He doesnt need to run the offense anyway.

That's two responders in this thread who have said they would not trade Terrence Williams in a max S&T. So, why did you vote for the max S&T? I can almost guarantee that these teams would demand BOTH Yi AND T-Will.

As for the #3, DeMarcus Cousins is the 3rd possibility. If Evan is there, take him. If not, you have to decide between the two top bigmen. Favors definitely seems the better fit for Avery, but I feel serious bust potential in him. He could be a Duhwight/Amar'e hybrid, but he could also be Stromile Swift, no exaggeration. His college numbers closely resemble Stro's, and they both came into college as THE elite HS bigman and left with the reputation of beasting against weaker NCAA frontcourt, disappearing against NBA-caliber bigmen and not looking like a year-one starter in the league. Rod Thorn even admitted that Derrick might not be ready to start until midway through his 2nd year; THAT'S NOT AMAR'E OR DUHWIGHT.

Avery just might be the best thing for DeMarcus. A coach that will not tolerate lip and demands dedication to the game could unleash the unreal potential in Cousins. We all know that DC's per-40 pace-adjusted stats are darn-near peerless in the last 20 years; with the right motivation, DeMarcus could be a 23/14/3/2/2 superstar.

It'll be interesting to hear from our FO after working out the two of these guys (anyone know when they are scheduled?), but bottom line, either could be a great player. I simply have more faith in Cousins.

Well based on the info from Sham, after signing 1 MAX guy, the Nets would still have $9,969,860 in cap space.

This means that assuming no s&t is involved, the Nets can offered a 2nd free agent a contract virtually the same as what the Pistons gave Ben Gordon (5 years, $58 million, 1st year salary $10 million).

I don't think it's quite enough to convince a David Lee or Carlos Boozer to come here, but I don't think it's that far off especially if you really were able to lure LeBron here.

Since a s&t only cuts into their cap space, I can't see a s&t with the Knicks happening. I'm not sure Utah would be interested either considering their luxury tax issues.

I would say a sign and trade for a 2nd MAX guy (ie: Bosh or Amare) isn't feasible without Devin. Based on how far you are from getting the guy outright, this other team would have to take both Yi and Humphries even with T-Will. At that point is it really worth it for them?

There's one other advantage of trying to avoid the s&t for that 2nd free agent. Between Yi, Humphries and CDR you'll have $8.1 million worth in expiring contracts. Between that whatever you use picks 27/31 and your 2011 pick the chips are there to add another solid contributor or 2 later on.

ecuhus1981 wrote:That's two responders in this thread who have said they would not trade Terrence Williams in a max S&T. So, why did you vote for the max S&T? I can almost guarantee that these teams would demand BOTH Yi AND T-Will.

As for the #3, DeMarcus Cousins is the 3rd possibility. If Evan is there, take him. If not, you have to decide between the two top bigmen. Favors definitely seems the better fit for Avery, but I feel serious bust potential in him. He could be a Duhwight/Amar'e hybrid, but he could also be Stromile Swift, no exaggeration. His college numbers closely resemble Stro's, and they both came into college as THE elite HS bigman and left with the reputation of beasting against weaker NCAA frontcourt, disappearing against NBA-caliber bigmen and not looking like a year-one starter in the league. Rod Thorn even admitted that Derrick might not be ready to start until midway through his 2nd year; THAT'S NOT AMAR'E OR DUHWIGHT.

Avery just might be the best thing for DeMarcus. A coach that will not tolerate lip and demands dedication to the game could unleash the unreal potential in Cousins. We all know that DC's per-40 pace-adjusted stats are darn-near peerless in the last 20 years; with the right motivation, DeMarcus could be a 23/14/3/2/2 superstar.

It'll be interesting to hear from our FO after working out the two of these guys (anyone know when they are scheduled?), but bottom line, either could be a great player. I simply have more faith in Cousins.

There's a few things that separate Favors from Stro, the one big thing being BBIQ. Stro was all about the show, Derrick actually takes pride in his man-to-man defense, which is the less glamour aspect of defense as opposed to help defense (which is often the highlight reel material). Everything that we've heard so far of Derrick, highly coachable, good BBIQ.

Also, to say that because people think he's not ready right away doesn't mean he's no Amare or Dwight, because, hindsight is 20/20 and we saw that both Dwight and Amare produced their rookie year, but the truth is that nobody expected them to contribute right away. When Howard was drafted, many questioned the Magic for passing on Okafor...older but highly productive PF/C. Would have started right away and produced with Meer. People seem to forget that Dwight was not this big during draft time. His body completely transformed from workouts/draft time to Summer League time.

I remember seeing Dwight at the SL and thinking "WTF?" and thought the guy did some roids. Amare too, while his body didn't suddenly blow up like Dwight, keep in mind that no one anticipated him to produce as quickly as he did, which resulted in Hilario being drafted ahead of him (more polished player, people thought, especially in the post), and why he was traded for Dice (IIRC, but that's because Isiaahahaha is a doofus)

deviljets7 wrote:Well based on the info from Sham, after signing 1 MAX guy, the Nets would still have $9,969,860 in cap space.

This means that assuming no s&t is involved, the Nets can offered a 2nd free agent a contract virtually the same as what the Pistons gave Ben Gordon (5 years, $58 million, 1st year salary $10 million).

I don't think it's quite enough to convince a David Lee or Carlos Boozer to come here, but I don't think it's that far off especially if you really were able to lure LeBron here.

Since a s&t only cuts into their cap space, I can't see a s&t with the Knicks happening. I'm not sure Utah would be interested either considering their luxury tax issues.

I would say a sign and trade for a 2nd MAX guy (ie: Bosh or Amare) isn't feasible without Devin. Based on how far you are from getting the guy outright, this other team would have to take both Yi and Humphries even with T-Will. At that point is it really worth it for them?

There's one other advantage of trying to avoid the s&t for that 2nd free agent. Between Yi, Humphries and CDR you'll have $8.1 million worth in expiring contracts. Between that whatever you use picks 27/31 and your 2011 pick the chips are there to add another solid contributor or 2 later on.

If we sign one max guy and release one cap hold in the process...depending on final cap numbers from the NBA...we ahould be around 10.4mil. Get rid of Humphries for a second rounder...there is enough for Lee. he can onyly get a max of 14 mill and we can get there on our own.

Take him off the board see ya Knicks. DONE.

SpeedyG wrote:

ecuhus1981 wrote:That's two responders in this thread who have said they would not trade Terrence Williams in a max S&T. So, why did you vote for the max S&T? I can almost guarantee that these teams would demand BOTH Yi AND T-Will.

As for the #3, DeMarcus Cousins is the 3rd possibility. If Evan is there, take him. If not, you have to decide between the two top bigmen. Favors definitely seems the better fit for Avery, but I feel serious bust potential in him. He could be a Duhwight/Amar'e hybrid, but he could also be Stromile Swift, no exaggeration. His college numbers closely resemble Stro's, and they both came into college as THE elite HS bigman and left with the reputation of beasting against weaker NCAA frontcourt, disappearing against NBA-caliber bigmen and not looking like a year-one starter in the league. Rod Thorn even admitted that Derrick might not be ready to start until midway through his 2nd year; THAT'S NOT AMAR'E OR DUHWIGHT.

Avery just might be the best thing for DeMarcus. A coach that will not tolerate lip and demands dedication to the game could unleash the unreal potential in Cousins. We all know that DC's per-40 pace-adjusted stats are darn-near peerless in the last 20 years; with the right motivation, DeMarcus could be a 23/14/3/2/2 superstar.

It'll be interesting to hear from our FO after working out the two of these guys (anyone know when they are scheduled?), but bottom line, either could be a great player. I simply have more faith in Cousins.

There's a few things that separate Favors from Stro, the one big thing being BBIQ. Stro was all about the show, Derrick actually takes pride in his man-to-man defense, which is the less glamour aspect of defense as opposed to help defense (which is often the highlight reel material). Everything that we've heard so far of Derrick, highly coachable, good BBIQ.

Also, to say that because people think he's not ready right away doesn't mean he's no Amare or Dwight, because, hindsight is 20/20 and we saw that both Dwight and Amare produced their rookie year, but the truth is that nobody expected them to contribute right away. When Howard was drafted, many questioned the Magic for passing on Okafor...older but highly productive PF/C. Would have started right away and produced with Meer. People seem to forget that Dwight was not this big during draft time. His body completely transformed from workouts/draft time to Summer League time.

I remember seeing Dwight at the SL and thinking "WTF?" and thought the guy did some roids. Amare too, while his body didn't suddenly blow up like Dwight, keep in mind that no one anticipated him to produce as quickly as he did, which resulted in Hilario being drafted ahead of him (more polished player, people thought, especially in the post), and why he was traded for Dice (IIRC, but that's because Isiaahahaha is a doofus)

Speedy is right. And dont forget Favors is the youndst guy in this draft. His numbers and measurements from Chicago are really similar to Dwight.

Good BBIQ, SpeedyG??? I don't know where you read that, but there is no evidence in the games and highlights I've seen of Derrick that show even average BBIQ. That's part of the mystique for alot of people; IF he could add skill to his game, he'd be a monster. Even Thorn said that he liked that he could tell Favors was learning every two weeks in college (which I feel is untrue, btw); that's a nice way of saying he's basketball-dumb.

Even if I choose to drink the "Favors = Howard lite" Kool-Aid, that still doesn't mean he has higher upside than DeMarcus (yes, I AM drinking the Cousins Kool-Aid). And why do people think that his body type makes him a better fit next to Lopez??? Dude cannot operate outside of 6 feet, meaning he will force Brook outside of the lane constantly, or he just won't get PT. DeMarcus on the other hand posted the best shooting numbers of ANYONE in the Kings' facility this year, not just bigmen. He won't steal low-block paint touches from Lopez, but he will provide an elite offensive rebounding force to clean up misses. Derrick's good in that department, but not special.

I guess we'll just have to see how this workout on the 21st goes...

I think both Kool-Aids are crap. I agree about Favors BBall IQ, its a bit of a mystery to me where people see that but maybe i'm missing something.

As par as fitting next to Brook. There are 2 blocks and 2 post players can co-exist without a problem. Both Cousins and Favors would do fine next to Brook offensively, its defense that has people worried. Favors is looked at as a better defender and everyone is questioning if Cousins could guard PFs. I dont think he can.

ecuhus1981 wrote:Good BBIQ, SpeedyG??? I don't know where you read that, but there is no evidence in the games and highlights I've seen of Derrick that show even average BBIQ. That's part of the mystique for alot of people; IF he could add skill to his game, he'd be a monster. Even Thorn said that he liked that he could tell Favors was learning every two weeks in college (which I feel is untrue, btw); that's a nice way of saying he's basketball-dumb.

That's not true at all. Just because a person has something to learn doesn't mean he's dumb. Everyone starts from some point. What matters is, how fast do you pick things up? Highlights wise, you're not going to find much evidence of IQ in Favors, given that 99% of his highlights are dunks and putbacks. But you did see the improvement, and from all accounts of people who's coached him, he's coachable with good BBIQ. And for a defensive player like him, sometimes it more difficult to show how much you know the game since you don't have the ball in your hands a lot. And too, he's still young. Kobe, as talented as he was at 18, made some horrible horrible decisions on the court his rookie year. At his age, I'm not expecting Kidd type IQ. I'm looking more for, OK, is he improving? Does he get it? Is he willing to learn? By all accounts, I think the answer to those three are yes.

Even if I choose to drink the "Favors = Howard lite" Kool-Aid, that still doesn't mean he has higher upside than DeMarcus (yes, I AM drinking the Cousins Kool-Aid). And why do people think that his body type makes him a better fit next to Lopez??? Dude cannot operate outside of 6 feet, meaning he will force Brook outside of the lane constantly, or he just won't get PT. DeMarcus on the other hand posted the best shooting numbers of ANYONE in the Kings' facility this year, not just bigmen. He won't steal low-block paint touches from Lopez, but he will provide an elite offensive rebounding force to clean up misses. Derrick's good in that department, but not special.

I don't think many will argue that Cousins has the higher upside than Cousins. In fact, I think he's on par with Wall if he didn't have his question marks with attitude, weight, and willingness to work out. They were doing an interview of Demarcus after the Kings workout and someone asked him what he weighted and he said it's still the same. And on one hand, you read reports of him working out 4 TIMES A DAY and eating a seafood diet.

WTF? You're working out FOUR TIMES A DAY, eating healthier than you've ever eaten in your life and you haven't shed ONE SINGLE POUND? Something doesn't add up.[/quote]

Cousins had a phenomenal workout in Sacramento on Saturday according to multiple sources. He took around 200 shots, all of which the Kings logged, and he hit 78 percent of them -- the best clip they've had in the 40 players who've come into town.

Cousins also is getting into better shape. He's down to 13 percent body fat from the 16.4 percent number he logged in Chicago. He still needs to drop another 10 pounds, but he's getting there

from Ford.

EDIT:
I'm not sure how true this is since Cousins himself said he was around 14-15% during the interview with the Kings and said he lost ZERO lbs. I'm not some muscle devil but i dont quite understand how it is you drop in body fat % (and 3% in a month is pretty significant) yet loose zero lbs. while not doing weight training. Sounds a bit like bull to me, but like i said, i'm no expert. But doing what he says he is, boxing, conditioning and core work outs, and diet makes me wonder how he managed NOT to loose any weight. Something definitely does not add up.

SpeedyG wrote:

ecuhus1981 wrote:Good BBIQ, SpeedyG??? I don't know where you read that, but there is no evidence in the games and highlights I've seen of Derrick that show even average BBIQ. That's part of the mystique for alot of people; IF he could add skill to his game, he'd be a monster. Even Thorn said that he liked that he could tell Favors was learning every two weeks in college (which I feel is untrue, btw); that's a nice way of saying he's basketball-dumb.

That's not true at all. Just because a person has something to learn doesn't mean he's dumb. Everyone starts from some point. What matters is, how fast do you pick things up? Highlights wise, you're not going to find much evidence of IQ in Favors, given that 99% of his highlights are dunks and putbacks. But you did see the improvement, and from all accounts of people who's coached him, he's coachable with good BBIQ. And for a defensive player like him, sometimes it more difficult to show how much you know the game since you don't have the ball in your hands a lot. And too, he's still young. Kobe, as talented as he was at 18, made some horrible horrible decisions on the court his rookie year. At his age, I'm not expecting Kidd type IQ. I'm looking more for, OK, is he improving? Does he get it? Is he willing to learn? By all accounts, I think the answer to those three are yes.

Even if I choose to drink the "Favors = Howard lite" Kool-Aid, that still doesn't mean he has higher upside than DeMarcus (yes, I AM drinking the Cousins Kool-Aid). And why do people think that his body type makes him a better fit next to Lopez??? Dude cannot operate outside of 6 feet, meaning he will force Brook outside of the lane constantly, or he just won't get PT. DeMarcus on the other hand posted the best shooting numbers of ANYONE in the Kings' facility this year, not just bigmen. He won't steal low-block paint touches from Lopez, but he will provide an elite offensive rebounding force to clean up misses. Derrick's good in that department, but not special.

I don't think many will argue that Cousins has the higher upside than Cousins. In fact, I think he's on par with Wall if he didn't have his question marks with attitude, weight, and willingness to work out. They were doing an interview of Demarcus after the Kings workout and someone asked him what he weighted and he said it's still the same. And on one hand, you read reports of him working out 4 TIMES A DAY and eating a seafood diet.

WTF? You're working out FOUR TIMES A DAY, eating healthier than you've ever eaten in your life and you haven't shed ONE SINGLE POUND? Something doesn't add up.

[/quote]


I think Favors upside destroys Cousins. Not close. I think Cousins is more polished and closer to what his body and talent will allow him to do and I doubt highly he will get his body in the condition he needs it to be to maximize what he is.

Where Favors has growth ability in all facets. That is more upside. Th question is not who has more upside in the end though. its who you believe is more inclined to fill their potential. Talent wise, knowledge wise Cousins has less DOWNSIDE...and that is where I think people are confused here. They think...look I can see he could be if he did this and that. Favors they cant see it. And that is the confusion in these conversations. Often what you see when it is more polished closer to the actual upside of the guy.

I believe that is what we are seeing here. The problem is...Cousins shows so little inclination to maximize potential. Upside, downside...really start becoming moot.

At the end of the day..Curry had the more impressive offensive career over Tyson Chandler. Each at their best in the NBA you take Chandler if you want to win games.

demens wrote:

Cousins had a phenomenal workout in Sacramento on Saturday according to multiple sources. He took around 200 shots, all of which the Kings logged, and he hit 78 percent of them -- the best clip they've had in the 40 players who've come into town.

Cousins also is getting into better shape. He's down to 13 percent body fat from the 16.4 percent number he logged in Chicago. He still needs to drop another 10 pounds, but he's getting there

from Ford.

EDIT:
I'm not sure how true this is since Cousins himself said he was around 14-15% during the interview with the Kings and said he lost ZERO lbs. I'm not some muscle devil but i dont quite understand how it is you drop in body fat % (and 3% in a month is pretty significant) yet loose zero lbs. while not doing weight training. Sounds a bit like bull to me, but like i said, i'm no expert. But doing what he says he is, boxing, conditioning and core work outs, and diet makes me wonder how he managed NOT to loose any weight. Something definitely does not add up.

If he has lost body fat, then it makes sense. Muscle weights more than fat, so if he's developed more muscle, it's possible for him to drop in body fat while retaining his weight.

Honestly, 3%, for the average person is a lot. But for someone as big as him who has never gone on a diet before? Just getting rid of red meat, beer, coke, sugar, desserts, and other fatty foods plus daily workout would get that 3% body fat off his body.

I don't necessarily agree with that assessment. True, naturally, when you see a guy who is more polished, you think right away lower ceiling, because most of the time, when you have a young guy, that's the thing that improves the most is their skill. So a young guy who already has skill, you'd say "higher floor, lower ceiling".

But in this case, I think Cousins' case is the exception because of the fact that he's been such a fat slob that his body has never been right. Drop to maybe 10% body fat, a little more muscle, pick up a little more athleticism, agility, and explosiveness...and you add that to the skill...it's a damn interesting scenario. And I think that's why people say his potential is higher...because if he does get his body right, and gets his attitude right...he really can be imposing in the paint.

SpeedyG wrote:If he has lost body fat, then it makes sense. Muscle weights more than fat, so if he's developed more muscle, it's possible for him to drop in body fat while retaining his weight.

I swear sometime it feel like people dont even read the comment they quote.

i dont quite understand how it is you drop in body fat % (and 3% in a month is pretty significant) yet loose zero lbs. while not doing weight training.

No **** muscle weights more then fat, how is he developing more muscle without lifting is what i wanna know. You dont grow muscle without lifting weights period. Maybe if he was a construction worker lifting bricks all day, or a farmer shoveling ****, but thats not what he is doing.

demens wrote:You dont grow muscle without lifting weights period.

Bo Jackson begs to differ.

P90X is a helluva workout!

Preludepunk27 wrote:P90X is a helluva workout!

Ehh, yeah. Pull-ups and push-ups is weight lifting. At least i certainly consider it that.